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No-ship Math Trade! ***UPDATE*** Now live! Submission deadline Aug 14!
honestD
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
UPDATE: This trade is now live, here's something to stick in your twitters: http://tinyurl.com/3pmeg8t
I saw that there were already a couple threads regarding boardgames on here already, but I didn't want to hijack or derail either of them...
Anyway, I don't know how many people would be interested in a no-ship math trade for while we're at PAX? Simply put, a math trade is when people who have games that they don't want put all of them into a pool, and pick the ones that they want. I have an apple and want a banana, Father Fletch has an orange and wants an apple, and Lackey has a banana and wants an orange... you see what I'm getting at here. All the have lists and want lists are all then put into an algorithm, who decides who gives what to whom. Usually, this is done via boardgamegeek.com, so everyone has to then ship their games to the recipients and waits with bated breath for their packages to arrive. As we know that we're all going to be in the same place at the same time...
So that's the idea, any takers? Post here if you're interested, and I'll update the OP when the trade goes live. The moderator is thinking that he'll give us two weeks to post have lists and one week to do a want list after the have lists close.
Oh, and one other thing. Since there will likely be quite a few games that don't get traded, what are peoples feelings on a draft for the leftovers?? I've been batting around the idea and think that it'd be a good idea, and a unique opportunity for us!
The formant I envisioned was that people would bring in the games they didn't trade, put their names on a list next to the games they put into the mix. Then, we have a draft, with a number of rounds, everyone gets one pick before the people who brought in multiple games pick their second game, but the more games you bring in, the earlier you get your pick?
So if A (3), B(1), C(4), and D(4) are all in the trade and all dropped off (x) games in the order above, then we'd have one round that looked like this:
C, D, A, B
Two rounds that looked like this
C, D, A,
and a last round that looked like this
C, D.
So that everyone ends up with the same number of games that they brought into the draft. Only caveat is that you have to go in eyes open! If you bring in a copy of TI3 as your only pick, and get a copy of coloretto in return, too bad! This is something that you knew could happen.
Now I imagine that theres a couple ways to game the system, so if anyone has a suggestion, as to how to make it more fair, I'd love to hear it. The only thing I came up with was a points system, where each game was worth a certain amount of points based on their game type. Just off the top of my head:
0.5 points: anything by Milton Bradley/Parker Brothers, off brand RPG sourcebooks,
1 point: small card games, party games, LCG chapter packs,
2 points: "lighter" euros (carcassone et al), large card games
3 points: "lighter" ameritrash, (Days of wonder type games), Mainstream RPG sourcebooks, Big Box expansions
4 points: Alea type games and equivalent (Tigris & Euphrates, Power Grid)
5 points: Heavier Euros, (railroad tycoon, Steam)
6 points: Ridiculously overproduced Fantasy Flight Big Box Games (TI3, Starcraft, Descent)
10 points: OOP gems (space hulk, Acquire 1999, Age of Steam 2nd ed)
Of course these games are all going to be arbitrarily placed into a category, and there will be disputes, but if I give it a value that you're not happy with, you're more than welcome to keep the game and try to make a side deal with someone whilst you're there.
I'm not really concerned with reasons why it wouldn't work, but more interested in ways to make this game, uh, I mean, draft, more fair, and less prone to abuse.
I saw that there were already a couple threads regarding boardgames on here already, but I didn't want to hijack or derail either of them...
Anyway, I don't know how many people would be interested in a no-ship math trade for while we're at PAX? Simply put, a math trade is when people who have games that they don't want put all of them into a pool, and pick the ones that they want. I have an apple and want a banana, Father Fletch has an orange and wants an apple, and Lackey has a banana and wants an orange... you see what I'm getting at here. All the have lists and want lists are all then put into an algorithm, who decides who gives what to whom. Usually, this is done via boardgamegeek.com, so everyone has to then ship their games to the recipients and waits with bated breath for their packages to arrive. As we know that we're all going to be in the same place at the same time...
So that's the idea, any takers? Post here if you're interested, and I'll update the OP when the trade goes live. The moderator is thinking that he'll give us two weeks to post have lists and one week to do a want list after the have lists close.
Oh, and one other thing. Since there will likely be quite a few games that don't get traded, what are peoples feelings on a draft for the leftovers?? I've been batting around the idea and think that it'd be a good idea, and a unique opportunity for us!
The formant I envisioned was that people would bring in the games they didn't trade, put their names on a list next to the games they put into the mix. Then, we have a draft, with a number of rounds, everyone gets one pick before the people who brought in multiple games pick their second game, but the more games you bring in, the earlier you get your pick?
So if A (3), B(1), C(4), and D(4) are all in the trade and all dropped off (x) games in the order above, then we'd have one round that looked like this:
C, D, A, B
Two rounds that looked like this
C, D, A,
and a last round that looked like this
C, D.
So that everyone ends up with the same number of games that they brought into the draft. Only caveat is that you have to go in eyes open! If you bring in a copy of TI3 as your only pick, and get a copy of coloretto in return, too bad! This is something that you knew could happen.
Now I imagine that theres a couple ways to game the system, so if anyone has a suggestion, as to how to make it more fair, I'd love to hear it. The only thing I came up with was a points system, where each game was worth a certain amount of points based on their game type. Just off the top of my head:
0.5 points: anything by Milton Bradley/Parker Brothers, off brand RPG sourcebooks,
1 point: small card games, party games, LCG chapter packs,
2 points: "lighter" euros (carcassone et al), large card games
3 points: "lighter" ameritrash, (Days of wonder type games), Mainstream RPG sourcebooks, Big Box expansions
4 points: Alea type games and equivalent (Tigris & Euphrates, Power Grid)
5 points: Heavier Euros, (railroad tycoon, Steam)
6 points: Ridiculously overproduced Fantasy Flight Big Box Games (TI3, Starcraft, Descent)
10 points: OOP gems (space hulk, Acquire 1999, Age of Steam 2nd ed)
Of course these games are all going to be arbitrarily placed into a category, and there will be disputes, but if I give it a value that you're not happy with, you're more than welcome to keep the game and try to make a side deal with someone whilst you're there.
I'm not really concerned with reasons why it wouldn't work, but more interested in ways to make this game, uh, I mean, draft, more fair, and less prone to abuse.
In Vancouver? Want to meet up and play some Games?
http://www.meetup.com/Vancouver-Gamers-Group/
Now with Twitter! @HonestoDoragon
Pokemon Black: 4555 9510 3686
http://www.meetup.com/Vancouver-Gamers-Group/
Now with Twitter! @HonestoDoragon
Pokemon Black: 4555 9510 3686
honestD on
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I would strongly prefer it be run over BGG using the OLWLG... it's a massive pan otherwise, especially if this gets at all big.
I can't see a reasonable way to do the draft that doesn't result in everyone getting screwed.
First off, the math trade program tries to make as many trades as possible. If something you put up didn't trade, it's because nobody wanted it, or nobody would give up enough to "pay" for it.
This means that there is NOTHING in the draft that's worth what you're offering. It's a physical impossibility.
Either you're offering something worth more than anything in the pot (which is paying $20 for a ten dollar bill)
Or you're offering something worth a lot less (which is paying a loonie for a $20 bill)
It's HEAVILY weighted towards those who put in crap.
So... I offer up Space Hulk, Arkham Horror with all expansions, and TI3.
Everyone else offers Coloretto, Scrabble Slam and old backgammon sets.
There is nothing worth my Space Hulk. At all. If there was, it would have traded in the first place.
So what is my incentive to put Space Hulk into the draft? Zero. I can ONLY lose.
Even your points idea is broken. You rate Carc (a $30 game) at 2 points, while RPG sourcebooks (average cost $20) are 3 points? And chapter packs ($10) are 1 point. I'll happily trade 2 chapter packs for Carc, etc.
Drafts can ONLY work when everyone is at an equal standing to begin with.
Sports drafts work because everyone starts with "Nothing"
CCG drafts work because everyone starts with "A booster pack" (and all booster packs are equal)
You cannot have a draft where the buy-in is inequal.
Even letting those who "buy in" with the most "value" pick first doesn't work, because - again - everything else on offer is worth less than their buy-in.
The best you can do is have people contribute items of roughly equal value to pick from. However, you then have subjective trade value.
Your opened, played once copy of Carc is not worth $30 to me. It's not even worth $20. I'd give you $12 for it, maybe 15 is it's in real good shape.
You insist that it's practically like new, no scuffs or wear, perfect condition. At least worth $25.
So, does this copy meet the $25 buy-in? You say yes, I say no. Breakdown.
Price doesn't even help. Used items vary in price a lot. All subjective. Not to mention that even new, I can buy that $30 carc for $19 online. So what's it really worth?
You want a draft that works?
Everyone has to contribute something NEW IN SHRINK with an MSRP of (number) or greater. Each item (or bundle, like 3 chapter packs) gets you one pick. So X items in, X items out. Equal buy-in, equal value going out. If your item costs a bit more than X, that's your choice.
The problem then becomes who picks first.
The obvious answer is... an auction (yay for euros)
I would do it as sealed bid, one round, everyone pays.
Everyone has an envelope with their name, places their bid inside (cash!) and that's that.
Highest bid gets first pick. And so on down. Ties can be rolled off, or "first envelope in, first out of the ties"
All bids are spent, everyone pays, because it's not "one winner" but bidding for position.
All proceeds to Child's Play. Duh.
Only problem is the limited number of games at any price point. Make it $30, you'll see a lot of Carcs.
And in the end... it doesn't address the main purpose of a math trade, which is to trade away stuff you already have and don't want!
I'll second palmer's recommendation of using BGG as a hub, though. They've certainly got the infrastructure in place for that.
Geeklist open: Aug 3rd
Submission cut off : aug 14
wantlist cutoff: aug 21
ill see if i can get him to open the list early, but regardless when he does, Ill post the link here... thanks!
Ps please try to ignore my awful formatting, im doing this on my phone. also, ill address the draft issues as soon as possible...
http://www.meetup.com/Vancouver-Gamers-Group/
Now with Twitter! @HonestoDoragon
Pokemon Black: 4555 9510 3686
Seriously, what's the hold-up? If they've got the algorithms in place already to execute the trade on BGG, there's no need to make people wait, and the longer there is to get the list built up, the more people can take part.
And I'm going to second palmer's recommendation of 'no post-trade draft'. That just seems certain to fail.
Anyway, the dates are set and I'll post the link in the OP on Aug 3, and we'll all get in... This trade will happen, don't worry about that...
Regarding the draft, I think that there might have been some misunderstanding here... I mean, lets say that you have a copy of Ra, or Taj Mahal or something. Great games, but you don't want them anymore, it just doesn't hit your sweet spot. In this case, a game that is fifty dollars new is technically bringing you zero value, because you don`t play it. You put it into the math trade, but it didn't get traded for whatever you were willing to take for it, due to the way that the OLWLG works, or the stars not aligning, whatever. Now imagine that two or three dozen other guys have the same deal going on. All of them have games that are solid items, but didn't go through for whatever reason. Wouldn't you rather get something for them, instead of taking the same game back to your shelf to gather more dust?
I imagine that my standards would loosen after the results were published, and the copy of HeroScape that I wanted to trade for Space Hulk, lost against someone elses copy of Villa Palletti... I still have HeroScape, and someone else has the Space Hulk, but maybe I can get another game or two out of it...
I doubt that anyone here would pay any amount of money for another copy of Carcassone, as we all already either have it, or have played the crap out of it... remember, one mans junk is another mans treasure... I gave up a copy of TI3 in the last math trade, simply because it wasn`t going to hit the table for us anymore.... I don`t know that I`d want a copy of Tide of Iron, or a stack of 3rd ed D&D manuals, for it, but there was something ( I think I got a shrinkwrapped copy of Loyang for it).
Here's a couple of ideas for the draft then, pick what you`d like, or suggest any other additions.
a) once everyone has their points totals, we go in order from the people who have the highest scoring individual games, and give them the right to withdraw their entire stack from the draft. This means that people who are putting up rare games or OOP gems don`t have to risk them against piles and piles of starwars: young jedi booster packs.
b) if there is a high value game, then the first person to draft it has to give up their entire point value for the draft, surrendering it to the person who originally owned it, subject to the original owners approval. So if I have Space Hulk, and Palmer has first pick with 50 points, then if I want to take it, I get Palmers placement in the draft, all of his points and he gets no other picks...
c) no parker bros or milton bradley junk, or any other piles of stuff to try and game the system *subject to three people in the math trade agreeing that a set of stuff is comprised of junk* we try to stem the tide of Scrabble slam and sorry sliders.
d) you people help me come up with a more equitable points system...
I don`t want to just say that we`re not going to do the draft.... I`d like to try to make it happen, but if PAX rolls around and no one throws down their stacks, then all that`ll have happened is that I`ll have been sitting there for three hours to facilitate the math trade anyway...
HD
http://www.meetup.com/Vancouver-Gamers-Group/
Now with Twitter! @HonestoDoragon
Pokemon Black: 4555 9510 3686
That's the problem. It's not zero value for me. It was $50, and while I don't like it, it still has value. I can sell it off at a discount (if I offer it for $20 on BGG, it WILL sell), or I can probably trade it, because someone will want it.
If it didn't trade in the math trade because nobody was willing to trade what I would accept for it, then it clearly has a non-zero value.
A draft just means that I get no say in how I value my things.
Try if you like, I'm not participating
No one is telling you to. I've only made a suggestion. We've heard what you have to say about the draft, and it's by no means mandatory for participation in math trade. I'll thank you to be civil about it.
http://www.meetup.com/Vancouver-Gamers-Group/
Now with Twitter! @HonestoDoragon
Pokemon Black: 4555 9510 3686
Hey, Sorry Sliders is an awesome game and you should be sorry for listing it as junk.
Also, is that 'Nothing by Parker Brothers or MB -at all-', or 'none of the thrift-store-common stuff by Parker or MB'? Because I'd consider things like Samurai Swords (MB), Fortress America (MB), or Survive! (Parker Brothers) to be decidedly appropriate to toss into the mix.
On an unrelated, not-nitpicky note, are the plans to let people know what their trades are going to result in *before* PAX, or after? I think if someone wants to take part in the trade but not the draft, knowing ahead of time whether they're making a trade is good, just because that way we won't be lugging a game to PAX for no reason.
Absolutely not junk.
Scrabble Slam is though.
The wantlist cutoff is Aug 21, so results should be posted by the 22nd, which is the Monday before PAX. Plenty of time to pack the trades and leave behind the chaff.
Also, youre absolutely right, Gamemaster games are definitely great games (regardless what I personally think about Axis & Allies), which is why it shouldnt fall to hard and fast rules nor the flawed judgement of a single person as to what goes into the draft.
The math trade is one thing, where everything being traded is agreed to beforehand, but palmer is right, values of games are very subjective, and should be treated as such.
http://www.meetup.com/Vancouver-Gamers-Group/
Now with Twitter! @HonestoDoragon
Pokemon Black: 4555 9510 3686
I agree that the draft'll be a waste. The great thing a math trade does is let you set your own personal value to your stuff specifically against stuff you want. Subjective value is built-in to the system. If it doesn't trade, then very likely no one wanted it.
Discussion: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/7202123
Requests: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/70524/pax-prime-2011-no-ship-math-trade-request-list
And... post your items for trade here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/70523/penny-arcade-expo-pax-prime-seattle-2011-no-ship
Need help? Check out the awesome tutorials.
Still confused? Post in the discussion thread, we'll be happy to help.
Too bad we can't get an official post or tweet or other widespread endorsement to attract the eyeballs.
This could be huge
But there's the rub. How do we go about getting one of those?
Point this out to Gabe and Tycho and hope for the best?
It's starting to look like this thing's just falling flat on its face.
edit: added some board games. gonna look up my video games/ponder over the borderline video games later
Word of mouth, helps, too. Have you guys been telling your friends? Have you been tweeting and facebooking?
http://www.meetup.com/Vancouver-Gamers-Group/
Now with Twitter! @HonestoDoragon
Pokemon Black: 4555 9510 3686
Just tweeted & facebooked. Gonna hit the PAX thread of my fav forum in a minute too.
I dunno why I'm so excited, TradeMaximizer took all the suspense out of math trades.
Kinda wish there were more, though. I'm not seeing a lot of things that interest me to go for with the Exalted boardgame yet.
Though some of the other stuff, I might go for with some later additions...
The program crunched the numbers and put together... NO trades. At all.
Darn it, I was really hoping to get some Zombie/Cthulhu dice for the lines. Oh well.
It didn't help much, in my case, that one of the items I had didn't have *anyone* pick it, and the other one only had picks that weren't in its want-list.
http://www.meetup.com/Vancouver-Gamers-Group/
Now with Twitter! @HonestoDoragon
Pokemon Black: 4555 9510 3686
If it's anything like last year you will have multiple places with a LOT of copies of both. They aren't all that spendy