So, it looks like after next week my raid's planning on saving the lock for next week unless we can clear 6/7 heroic in a reasonable amount of time on the first day, so we have a lot of learning time on rag. hoo boy.
How long have you been downing 6/7 HC and how far are you getting on Heroic Ragnaros?
If you aren't consistently getting to phase 4, then extending the lockout is a bad idea.
Only 6/7 since the nerf. 25m, if that makes any difference.
And, well, if you can't clear 6/7 in a reasonable amount of time (we do it in 2 hours pretty much), then you probably shouldn't get too worked up about Hrag yet.
Yeah, people keep dying to stupid shit, so there's not really anything reasonable about our clear time. We're making progress on rag, but it's kinda slow-- people aren't getting knocked back into traps anymore, which was screwing us up, and we've gotten the transition down, mostly; just need to get people to stop dying to the initial seed spread. When we have everyone up, the elementals die, but it is a bit tight still. I'll be trying out survival next week along with the other hunter, so that should help.
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
Interesting set up. I just hope it doesn't screw bear tanks, especially on trinkets.
Why would it screw them? Bears will be treated as tanks if that's the role they're performing in the raid.
The problem is that Bears would be competing with Hunters, Cat druids (and possibly Boomkins depending on how they code it), and Rogues for various pieces of gear, since they don't really have any really "tank oriented" Polearms and leather (and they tend to favor agi trinkets too so...). DKs have a similar issue when it comes to weapons.
So the argument is that bear tanks aren't going to get the same "priority" that the plate tanks are getting.
Plate tanks have to compete with themselves. There are three plate tanking classes afterall :P Also, Druids *barely* have to compete with Hunters - only on weapons/trinkets/rings/neck. To some extent they are at something of a disadvantage depending on how LFR fills the DPS slots of course, but not a huge one. There may be two more people rolling against them or something.
Boomkins and such they do need to fix. They absolutely need to look at spec for Druids and Shamen in particular since feral/balance and elemental/enhance are both DPS roles but want *very* different stats.
Interesting set up. I just hope it doesn't screw bear tanks, especially on trinkets.
Why would it screw them? Bears will be treated as tanks if that's the role they're performing in the raid.
The problem is that Bears would be competing with Hunters, Cat druids (and possibly Boomkins depending on how they code it), and Rogues for various pieces of gear, since they don't really have any really "tank oriented" Polearms and leather (and they tend to favor agi trinkets too so...). DKs have a similar issue when it comes to weapons.
So the argument is that bear tanks aren't going to get the same "priority" that the plate tanks are getting.
Plate tanks have to compete with themselves. There are three plate tanking classes afterall :P Also, Druids *barely* have to compete with Hunters - only on weapons/trinkets/rings/neck. To some extent they are at something of a disadvantage depending on how LFR fills the DPS slots of course, but not a huge one. There may be two more people rolling against them or something.
Boomkins and such they do need to fix. They absolutely need to look at spec for Druids and Shamen in particular since feral/balance and elemental/enhance are both DPS roles but want *very* different stats.
Yeah, other than the concern of balance druids ninja-ing agi leather, I don't really see how it's any different than dungeons/raids already are for bear druids. They've always been competing against rogues for armor and all the agi specs for jewelry/cloaks. They've pretty much always been in the unique position of not having their "own" gear drop (i.e., defense oriented plate), so I don't really see how this LFR thing is any different from the way PUGs/DF have been for bears for years.
Do 'DPS' flagged druids get +100 for agi leather? Do 'tank' flagged druids get +100 for agi leather?
Do 'Healer' flagged druids get +100 for spirit leather? What about boomkins?
If a boomkin needs on a neck with spirit, does he get +100 so he has a chance against healers?
If a rogue needs on agi leather, does the rogue get +100? If so, and tanks/dps druids don't, druids are boned.
The biggest problem occurs with the fact that there are two entirely different sets of gear a 'dps' druid can have, and they're shared across role boundaries. There is no 'tank', 'dps', or 'healer' gear for a druid, just 'gear'.
Look at me. Look at me. Look at how large the monster inside me has become. Crunch Crunch! Munch Munch! Chomp Chomp! Gulp!
What I'm more concerned about is what items the game will give the roll bonus to bears on, which is probably only an issue on trinkets. Right now, the best in slot bear trinkets are the rep mastery/agi on-use and the agi trinket off Rag/H Rag. But it wouldn't exactly shock me if they didn't code the game that way, giving the bonus to largely useless items like the stam trinket that drops from Firelands trash and making it totally impossible to win a roll on what you really want. And the only way I'd ever take the time on my main to do a LFR raid would be to get a high demand item like that that just wasn't dropping in my 10 man main raid.
I never understood the hate for non-standard character names. When someone uses a bunch of accents in their name it looks crappy but that has absolutely no impact on my own gameplay. As far as making it hard to invite to groups, just don't invite them if you can't cope. All I see here is a group of people cheering for less choice.
Interesting set up. I just hope it doesn't screw bear tanks, especially on trinkets.
Why would it screw them? Bears will be treated as tanks if that's the role they're performing in the raid.
The problem is that Bears would be competing with Hunters, Cat druids (and possibly Boomkins depending on how they code it), and Rogues for various pieces of gear, since they don't really have any really "tank oriented" Polearms and leather (and they tend to favor agi trinkets too so...). DKs have a similar issue when it comes to weapons.
So the argument is that bear tanks aren't going to get the same "priority" that the plate tanks are getting.
Plate tanks have to compete with themselves. There are three plate tanking classes afterall :P Also, Druids *barely* have to compete with Hunters - only on weapons/trinkets/rings/neck. To some extent they are at something of a disadvantage depending on how LFR fills the DPS slots of course, but not a huge one. There may be two more people rolling against them or something.
Boomkins and such they do need to fix. They absolutely need to look at spec for Druids and Shamen in particular since feral/balance and elemental/enhance are both DPS roles but want *very* different stats.
Well, right about the plate tanks. I think their big argument is that they are potentially rolling against anywhere from 2x to 4x the number of people that the plate tanks would.
I never understood the hate for non-standard character names. When someone uses a bunch of accents in their name it looks crappy but that has absolutely no impact on my own gameplay. As far as making it hard to invite to groups, just don't invite them if you can't cope. All I see here is a group of people cheering for less choice.
It had a big impact in WSG for a long time. I'm not sure how much of one it has these days, but I say fuck 'em for that reason alone.
Well, right about the plate tanks. I think their big argument is that they are potentially rolling against anywhere from 2x to 4x the number of people that the plate tanks would.
So just like always. This isn't a new LFR problem.
The point about the trinkets is a good one if "DPS" trinkets are still better for druids than tank trinkets.
If a boomkin needs on a neck with spirit, does he get +100 so he has a chance against healers?
This is a good question, though. 3 of the 5 DPS caster classes (or 9 specs) are fine with spirit gear, but on the other hand, flagging spirit jewelry/cloaks as "DPS" gear risks mages/warlocks rolling on it. Similarly, will non-spirit int jewelry/cloaks be flagged as DPS gear only and not healing gear? Blizzard insists healers don't need to be grabbing only gear with spirit, but of course it's a little different when they're competing with mages/warlocks for those classes' only options. I would assume whichever way they decide, it'll end up that either the answer is "yes" to both or "no" to both, and I'd assume they'll lean toward making jewelry/cloaks single-role just so that they don't have half of the raid rolling on a single item.
If a boomkin needs on a neck with spirit, does he get +100 so he has a chance against healers?
This is a good question, though. 3 of the 5 DPS caster classes (or 9 specs) are fine with spirit gear, but on the other hand, flagging spirit jewelry/cloaks as "DPS" gear risks mages/warlocks rolling on it. Similarly, will non-spirit int jewelry/cloaks be flagged as DPS gear only and not healing gear? Blizzard insists healers don't need to be grabbing only gear with spirit, but of course it's a little different when they're competing with mages/warlocks for those classes' only options. I would assume whichever way they decide, it'll end up that either the answer is "yes" to both or "no" to both, and I'd assume they'll lean toward making jewelry/cloaks single-role just so that they don't have half of the raid rolling on a single item.
If a rogue needs on agi leather, does the rogue get +100? If so, and tanks/dps druids don't, druids are boned.
Yes, and druids do as well.
Well see, that means that a 'dps' flagged druid can roll on any leather gear that drops, as well as agility, intellect, or spirit jewelry/trinkets. Boomkins and feral cats can roll on any gear, since the game sees no difference between them on an individual level, they have to allow 'dps' druids to get +100 on basically any gear they can wear, or penalize druids for being druids.
Admittedly, not everyone will abuse the system, but I have no doubt that many will.
Look at me. Look at me. Look at how large the monster inside me has become. Crunch Crunch! Munch Munch! Chomp Chomp! Gulp!
If a boomkin needs on a neck with spirit, does he get +100 so he has a chance against healers?
This is a good question, though. 3 of the 5 DPS caster classes (or 9 specs) are fine with spirit gear, but on the other hand, flagging spirit jewelry/cloaks as "DPS" gear risks mages/warlocks rolling on it. Similarly, will non-spirit int jewelry/cloaks be flagged as DPS gear only and not healing gear? Blizzard insists healers don't need to be grabbing only gear with spirit, but of course it's a little different when they're competing with mages/warlocks for those classes' only options. I would assume whichever way they decide, it'll end up that either the answer is "yes" to both or "no" to both, and I'd assume they'll lean toward making jewelry/cloaks single-role just so that they don't have half of the raid rolling on a single item.
They said that items can be flagged for multiple class roles (like with tank/cat druid), so I imagine that spirit leather and mail will be flagged as both healing and dps, but spirit cloth and plate will only be flagged as healing.
Edit: Now that I think of it, spirit accessories are going to be a huge problem in this regard...
The best way would be to allow DPS Druids, Priests, and Shaman to roll on them but I doubt their system will handle that so Spirit stuff will most likely be flagged for Heals, Hit stuff DPS (of course), and anything missing both Spirit and Hit will be marked for both.
Fellas, The point of the Flag system is to prevent "OFF SPEC" need rolls. Like, I'm gonna use that shit for a spec I'm not even in right now.
No one should care if you have a paladin tank and a warrior tank and a shield drops and someone one of those two gets it. At least you know that it's going to be used (theoretically).
If an agi staff drops, it's a hunter weapon and a feral weapon. Both people can use it equally. Tanks should just have first dibs because they're tanks.
Now, as for healers, this is going to be funny. I wonder if they're going to do spirit=healers, non-spirit=everyone.
If you don't want the heartache of running with random players, then I'd say no matter the loot rules, RRF isn't for you. You can't program out asshattery.
Fellas, The point of the Flag system is to prevent "OFF SPEC" need rolls. Like, I'm gonna use that shit for a spec I'm not even in right now.
No one should care if you have a paladin tank and a warrior tank and a shield drops and someone one of those two gets it. At least you know that it's going to be used (theoretically).
If an agi staff drops, it's a hunter weapon and a feral weapon. Both people can use it equally. Tanks should just have first dibs because they're tanks.
Now, as for healers, this is going to be funny. I wonder if they're going to do spirit=healers, non-spirit=everyone.
You miss my point entirely. My point is simple:
If the +100 is based off of 'role selected', then in order for druids to have a chance winning gear that is their main spec, any 'dps' druid will have to get a +100 on all agi/spirit weapons, trinkets, jewelry, and leather. This is because the system they described does not differentiate between Boomkins and Ferals. Otherwise, these druids will never get gear. And if they do give +100 to all the above, that means that any 'dps' druid can basically roll on anything they can wear with a chance to win (opening up tom foolery and griefing from unkind druids).
Look at me. Look at me. Look at how large the monster inside me has become. Crunch Crunch! Munch Munch! Chomp Chomp! Gulp!
Anecdotally, I've never really met any unkind druids/shaman who need on agi/int gear when they're playing as the other type of dps, the only times I've seen it have been with the plate classes (also speaking of that: DKs can use DPS weapons to tank with so they have a bit of overlap with DPS there as well). Even so, I can bet you if someone does need on the opposite gear type to their current dps spec someone else will vote to kick them.
I don't understand Blizz. Giving in to the cry babies yet again. If i want to work on my DPS set in the next tier i have to queue as dps? That is just plain dumb. I can queue as a tank and the group will benefit because my tank gear will be 4 piece/heroic raid gears... where as my dps will be 1) warrior/melee dps 2) much much less ilvl with no set bonuses. Maybee these cry babies need to learn to play first... What causes me the most grief when i queue is players being dumb and not losing loot to the other players. And I have lost alot of gear to healers and tanks while gearing up my dps alts. It sucks but oh well i expect to be able to roll on the same gear if I am on my tank.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
He has a point. Conversely, how are you supposed to start gearing up to tank if you can never roll on tank gear? Sure there's the jp vendors but at some point you're going to have to hop in a dungeon and people are going to complain about you being an undergeared tank. Groups *hate* that but they'll complain just as loudly if you queue as dps and roll on tank stuff. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Main spec getting priority does make sense but don't expect it from pugs. Pugs it's everyone for themselves.
I just got done gearing up a mage to 4piece last tier with all JP gear etc... first day when he hit 85 i promptly bought pvp gear and queued up for heroics. First day: lost BOTH prime spell power DPS trinkets out of the old heroics to healers. You know what I did? Kept queuing and finishing up quests/gathering stuff while waiting for queue. No WAH WAH ITS MAH PURPS I QUEUED AS DPS! whining nonsense.
He has a point. Conversely, how are you supposed to start gearing up to tank if you can never roll on tank gear? Sure there's the jp vendors but at some point you're going to have to hop in a dungeon and people are going to complain about you being an undergeared tank. Groups *hate* that but they'll complain just as loudly if you queue as dps and roll on tank stuff. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Main spec getting priority does make sense but don't expect it from pugs. Pugs it's everyone for themselves.
The secret is that people are going to bitch anyways. Waah you aren't pulling fast enough. Waah you aren't letting me skin. etc.
When I've been working on tanks, I've been making damn sure that I have everything possible from the lower tier for tanking (and whatever rep stuff I can get) before I step into the next one. Molten Front is an absolute goldmine for tank gear.
And let's be honest, the only reason a lot of tanks are running the za/zg dungeons right now are the VP (and a shot at the mounts). Consequently, a DPS can easily grab tank gear because many of the tanks don't need it. That's how I've been gearing my warrior.
I don't understand Blizz. Giving in to the cry babies yet again. If i want to work on my DPS set in the next tier i have to queue as dps? That is just plain dumb. I can queue as a tank and the group will benefit because my tank gear will be 4 piece/heroic raid gears... where as my dps will be 1) warrior/melee dps 2) much much less ilvl with no set bonuses. Maybee these cry babies need to learn to play first... What causes me the most grief when i queue is players being dumb and not losing loot to the other players. And I have lost alot of gear to healers and tanks while gearing up my dps alts. It sucks but oh well i expect to be able to roll on the same gear if I am on my tank.
If players being dumb is what really gives you grief in this game, then maybe, just maybe, LFR won't be a good idea for you to participate in. Additionally, I'm fairly sure that this new Need Before Greed system only applies to the raid finder, so you'll still have relatively easy (or at least fair by your expectations) access to 378 dps gear from the new 5 mans. No, you won't have tier bonuses, but I have a feeling it will be more than good enough to start dpsing in the raid finder with.
If you're of the opinion "in PUGs it's everyone for themselves" then you're part of the problem. The people you're complaining about needing on offspec gear? They have the exact same outlook. All you do by stooping to their level is to just make things worse. Plus you can roll on tank/healing/dps gear when the people who need it most (the people who are going to quite possibly equip it and use it for the rest of the raid/dungeon) have already gotten a chance at it.
I don't understand Blizz. Giving in to the cry babies yet again. If i want to work on my DPS set in the next tier i have to queue as dps? That is just plain dumb. I can queue as a tank and the group will benefit because my tank gear will be 4 piece/heroic raid gears... where as my dps will be 1) warrior/melee dps 2) much much less ilvl with no set bonuses. Maybee these cry babies need to learn to play first... What causes me the most grief when i queue is players being dumb and not losing loot to the other players. And I have lost alot of gear to healers and tanks while gearing up my dps alts. It sucks but oh well i expect to be able to roll on the same gear if I am on my tank.
If players being dumb is what really gives you grief in this game, then maybe, just maybe, LFR won't be a good idea for you to participate in. Additionally, I'm fairly sure that this new Need Before Greed system only applies to the raid finder, so you'll still have relatively easy (or at least fair by your expectations) access to 378 dps gear from the new 5 mans. No, you won't have tier bonuses, but I have a feeling it will be more than good enough to start dpsing in the raid finder with.
The post from the blues mentions that they are considering using it for the new 5 mans as well.
If you're of the opinion "in PUGs it's everyone for themselves" then you're part of the problem. The people you're complaining about needing on offspec gear? They have the exact same outlook. All you do by stooping to their level is to just make things worse. Plus you can roll on tank/healing/dps gear when the people who need it most (the people who are going to quite possibly equip it and use it for the rest of the raid/dungeon) have already gotten a chance at it.
I believe in not being a greedy jerk. Usually it works out but not always.
Pugs ARE everyone for themselves. If you extend people courtesy eventually you're going to get burned by someone who doesn't share the same view about loot rules. That's just the way it is when you're pugging. You open yourself up to people who don't necessarily share the same values or have the same priorities.
I just got done gearing up a mage to 4piece last tier with all JP gear etc... first day when he hit 85 i promptly bought pvp gear and queued up for heroics. First day: lost BOTH prime spell power DPS trinkets out of the old heroics to healers. You know what I did? Kept queuing and finishing up quests/gathering stuff while waiting for queue. No WAH WAH ITS MAH PURPS I QUEUED AS DPS! whining nonsense.
Couple of things.
First, your posts often sound incredibly vitriolic and nonsensical with this "Whiners need to L2P" and "Blizz is catering to the crybaby casuals" silliness. Just a bit of constructive criticism: lay off the 'I'm A MMO PRO, everyone else is TEH NOOBZ' pedal so much. It doesn't do your position any favors. Also, always keep in mind that your experiences do not mirror everyone else's.
Second, there is no magical fix for this situation - as someone else said, you can't code out douchebaggery. This is simply a means to give people who genuinely need that piece of gear a bit of an edge rolling on it. Is it a flawed system? Of course it is. That's largely due to WoW's hybrid/pure design. No matter what, someone's going to get bent out of shape. But at least this may help to avert some of the loot drama that is bound to spawn from the LFR tool.
Frankly, I think the LFR tool is a huge mistake, as is designing and tuning an entirely separate difficulty level for raids. If they simply made normal modes easier and left heroic modes alone, none of this would be necessary. But of course, 'easier' is subjective and everyone's going to have some issue with that as well. But who knows; maybe I'm way off base and LFR will be a huge success. Here's hoping.
Still say if loot rolls are that big a problem, that they should opt for loot bags instead. They can even give players a choice between spec specific bags and general loot table ones.
It wouldn't even be that big a stretch, considering holidays already do something like it.
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
Still say if loot rolls are that big a problem, that they should opt for loot bags instead. They can even give players a choice between spec specific bags and general loot table ones.
It wouldn't even be that big a stretch, considering holidays already do something like it.
I agree completely. Supposedly Blizzard is "considering other options for loot methods" but they haven't stated specifically what those options may be, or if this loot roll adjustment was part/all of it.
Raids dropping loot bags (especially spec-specific ones) would require a pretty radical rethinking of the reward/time ratio in raiding. Currently raids get approximately one piece of loot per five people in the raid per boss.
In the new world of loot bags, do five random people in the raid get a bag? Does the ML get to assign bags to five people? Do the bag winners get to trade whatever they get to someone else (and if so, is there even a point of having bags?)
Alternatively, does everyone get a bag with a relatively low chance of even dropping anything?
Neither of these options seem like particularly good ideas to me.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
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AssuranIs swinging on the SpiralRegistered Userregular
Just saw the model for Wrathion over at MMO-Champion, and I admit a cringed a little bit. Granted, I don't do a ton of quests on the alliance side, and all my 85s were Horde, so I don't see humans that often, and I know he's a dragon, but I had hoped the Black Prince was a reference to his evil nature.
Everyone gets a bag, just like holiday raids. They already established that item levels of gear wasn't as high as any raid level gear, so what does it matter if they skew the numbers as far as drop ratios? Wasn't that their stance with LFD?
Let's assume the low drop rate bags. Everyone has about the same level chance of scoring a drop as they would a regular raid, only without the troll outrolling them and selling the item to a vendor. Isn't that the real problem, here?
We've already skewed the reward/time ratio by introducing a system like this in the first place. Might as well skew it in the favor of rewards and set a player up with gear that'd prep them for current tier raiding. I mean, that's what the point of the system is in the first place, right? Accessibility!
If it's still a problem, then they shouldn't introduce a system like this in the first place. If it's a legitimate problem, then this will only cause more grief.
EDIT: Thank you iPhone I didn't know outrolling should actually be spelled as outrunning you are very helpful
There are no holiday raids. There are holiday five mans, but the bags from those don't drop gear, aside from a low chance for couple of holiday specific drops like the tankard. The brewfest trinkets, for example, just drop off the boss and you roll like you normally would. Cloaks from ahune worked the same way.
I just don't think the outcome of your idea is better than a simple need/greed roll. If loot you want drops and you get outrolled that sucks, but I personally prefer that to running a raid umpteen times and never even seeing a drop because I have bad luck with bags (as happened to me this brewfest.)
ed: nevermind that the whole "what gear do druids use" issue cuts both ways. The "low drop rate bag" setup creates situations where people get bags and open them to find loot they don't even want.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I was on the PTR earlier to check out the new dungeon and it seemed like they either did a tuning run and upped the difficulty or I happened into a really bad group. I have no mods on the PTR so I can't really tell the difference that well, but it definitely was more difficult than when I did it before they added the new one.
I just got done gearing up a mage to 4piece last tier with all JP gear etc... first day when he hit 85 i promptly bought pvp gear and queued up for heroics. First day: lost BOTH prime spell power DPS trinkets out of the old heroics to healers. You know what I did? Kept queuing and finishing up quests/gathering stuff while waiting for queue. No WAH WAH ITS MAH PURPS I QUEUED AS DPS! whining nonsense.
Couple of things.
First, your posts often sound incredibly vitriolic and nonsensical with this "Whiners need to L2P" and "Blizz is catering to the crybaby casuals" silliness. Just a bit of constructive criticism: lay off the 'I'm A MMO PRO, everyone else is TEH NOOBZ' pedal so much. It doesn't do your position any favors. Also, always keep in mind that your experiences do not mirror everyone else's.
Second, there is no magical fix for this situation - as someone else said, you can't code out douchebaggery. This is simply a means to give people who genuinely need that piece of gear a bit of an edge rolling on it. Is it a flawed system? Of course it is. That's largely due to WoW's hybrid/pure design. No matter what, someone's going to get bent out of shape. But at least this may help to avert some of the loot drama that is bound to spawn from the LFR tool.
Frankly, I think the LFR tool is a huge mistake, as is designing and tuning an entirely separate difficulty level for raids. If they simply made normal modes easier and left heroic modes alone, none of this would be necessary. But of course, 'easier' is subjective and everyone's going to have some issue with that as well. But who knows; maybe I'm way off base and LFR will be a huge success. Here's hoping.
First. Take my posts as you will. I dont care. Second. There isnt a day I come in here where people are stating the bad day hey had with pugs. It is common. The majority of them just plain suck. Period.
If the new rules are LFR only then good, it will only effect my alts, but as someone else already said they are thinking of using it for the new 5mans. Hence my original post. It is tough to fix something by putting more restrictions in place. Especially with all the special cases that exist in WoW.
I actually do like the +100 system. I can't immediately think of a way that can be exploited (other than by people setting their role as something other than what they're doing, I guess, but that's easy to detect in advance), and it will solve a lot of the problems with illegitimate need rolls.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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Only 6/7 since the nerf. 25m, if that makes any difference.
Yeah, people keep dying to stupid shit, so there's not really anything reasonable about our clear time. We're making progress on rag, but it's kinda slow-- people aren't getting knocked back into traps anymore, which was screwing us up, and we've gotten the transition down, mostly; just need to get people to stop dying to the initial seed spread. When we have everyone up, the elementals die, but it is a bit tight still. I'll be trying out survival next week along with the other hunter, so that should help.
Plate tanks have to compete with themselves. There are three plate tanking classes afterall :P Also, Druids *barely* have to compete with Hunters - only on weapons/trinkets/rings/neck. To some extent they are at something of a disadvantage depending on how LFR fills the DPS slots of course, but not a huge one. There may be two more people rolling against them or something.
Boomkins and such they do need to fix. They absolutely need to look at spec for Druids and Shamen in particular since feral/balance and elemental/enhance are both DPS roles but want *very* different stats.
Do 'DPS' flagged druids get +100 for agi leather? Do 'tank' flagged druids get +100 for agi leather?
Do 'Healer' flagged druids get +100 for spirit leather? What about boomkins?
If a boomkin needs on a neck with spirit, does he get +100 so he has a chance against healers?
If a rogue needs on agi leather, does the rogue get +100? If so, and tanks/dps druids don't, druids are boned.
The biggest problem occurs with the fact that there are two entirely different sets of gear a 'dps' druid can have, and they're shared across role boundaries. There is no 'tank', 'dps', or 'healer' gear for a druid, just 'gear'.
Crunch Crunch! Munch Munch! Chomp Chomp! Gulp!
Well, right about the plate tanks. I think their big argument is that they are potentially rolling against anywhere from 2x to 4x the number of people that the plate tanks would.
The point about the trinkets is a good one if "DPS" trinkets are still better for druids than tank trinkets.
This is a good question, though. 3 of the 5 DPS caster classes (or 9 specs) are fine with spirit gear, but on the other hand, flagging spirit jewelry/cloaks as "DPS" gear risks mages/warlocks rolling on it. Similarly, will non-spirit int jewelry/cloaks be flagged as DPS gear only and not healing gear? Blizzard insists healers don't need to be grabbing only gear with spirit, but of course it's a little different when they're competing with mages/warlocks for those classes' only options. I would assume whichever way they decide, it'll end up that either the answer is "yes" to both or "no" to both, and I'd assume they'll lean toward making jewelry/cloaks single-role just so that they don't have half of the raid rolling on a single item.
Yes, and druids do as well.
Well see, that means that a 'dps' flagged druid can roll on any leather gear that drops, as well as agility, intellect, or spirit jewelry/trinkets. Boomkins and feral cats can roll on any gear, since the game sees no difference between them on an individual level, they have to allow 'dps' druids to get +100 on basically any gear they can wear, or penalize druids for being druids.
Admittedly, not everyone will abuse the system, but I have no doubt that many will.
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They said that items can be flagged for multiple class roles (like with tank/cat druid), so I imagine that spirit leather and mail will be flagged as both healing and dps, but spirit cloth and plate will only be flagged as healing.
Edit: Now that I think of it, spirit accessories are going to be a huge problem in this regard...
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No one should care if you have a paladin tank and a warrior tank and a shield drops and someone one of those two gets it. At least you know that it's going to be used (theoretically).
If an agi staff drops, it's a hunter weapon and a feral weapon. Both people can use it equally. Tanks should just have first dibs because they're tanks.
Now, as for healers, this is going to be funny. I wonder if they're going to do spirit=healers, non-spirit=everyone.
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Well, it probably wouldn't be as big of a deal when it only applies to the one raid, but if they ever apply it to the regular dungeon finder.
There are plenty of players that will gladly roll on stuff to vendor/disenchant/trash just to prevent other players from having it too.
You miss my point entirely. My point is simple:
If the +100 is based off of 'role selected', then in order for druids to have a chance winning gear that is their main spec, any 'dps' druid will have to get a +100 on all agi/spirit weapons, trinkets, jewelry, and leather. This is because the system they described does not differentiate between Boomkins and Ferals. Otherwise, these druids will never get gear. And if they do give +100 to all the above, that means that any 'dps' druid can basically roll on anything they can wear with a chance to win (opening up tom foolery and griefing from unkind druids).
Crunch Crunch! Munch Munch! Chomp Chomp! Gulp!
Main spec getting priority does make sense but don't expect it from pugs. Pugs it's everyone for themselves.
The secret is that people are going to bitch anyways. Waah you aren't pulling fast enough. Waah you aren't letting me skin. etc.
When I've been working on tanks, I've been making damn sure that I have everything possible from the lower tier for tanking (and whatever rep stuff I can get) before I step into the next one. Molten Front is an absolute goldmine for tank gear.
And let's be honest, the only reason a lot of tanks are running the za/zg dungeons right now are the VP (and a shot at the mounts). Consequently, a DPS can easily grab tank gear because many of the tanks don't need it. That's how I've been gearing my warrior.
If players being dumb is what really gives you grief in this game, then maybe, just maybe, LFR won't be a good idea for you to participate in. Additionally, I'm fairly sure that this new Need Before Greed system only applies to the raid finder, so you'll still have relatively easy (or at least fair by your expectations) access to 378 dps gear from the new 5 mans. No, you won't have tier bonuses, but I have a feeling it will be more than good enough to start dpsing in the raid finder with.
The post from the blues mentions that they are considering using it for the new 5 mans as well.
I believe in not being a greedy jerk. Usually it works out but not always.
Pugs ARE everyone for themselves. If you extend people courtesy eventually you're going to get burned by someone who doesn't share the same view about loot rules. That's just the way it is when you're pugging. You open yourself up to people who don't necessarily share the same values or have the same priorities.
First, your posts often sound incredibly vitriolic and nonsensical with this "Whiners need to L2P" and "Blizz is catering to the crybaby casuals" silliness. Just a bit of constructive criticism: lay off the 'I'm A MMO PRO, everyone else is TEH NOOBZ' pedal so much. It doesn't do your position any favors. Also, always keep in mind that your experiences do not mirror everyone else's.
Second, there is no magical fix for this situation - as someone else said, you can't code out douchebaggery. This is simply a means to give people who genuinely need that piece of gear a bit of an edge rolling on it. Is it a flawed system? Of course it is. That's largely due to WoW's hybrid/pure design. No matter what, someone's going to get bent out of shape. But at least this may help to avert some of the loot drama that is bound to spawn from the LFR tool.
Frankly, I think the LFR tool is a huge mistake, as is designing and tuning an entirely separate difficulty level for raids. If they simply made normal modes easier and left heroic modes alone, none of this would be necessary. But of course, 'easier' is subjective and everyone's going to have some issue with that as well. But who knows; maybe I'm way off base and LFR will be a huge success. Here's hoping.
It wouldn't even be that big a stretch, considering holidays already do something like it.
In the new world of loot bags, do five random people in the raid get a bag? Does the ML get to assign bags to five people? Do the bag winners get to trade whatever they get to someone else (and if so, is there even a point of having bags?)
Alternatively, does everyone get a bag with a relatively low chance of even dropping anything?
Neither of these options seem like particularly good ideas to me.
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Let's assume the low drop rate bags. Everyone has about the same level chance of scoring a drop as they would a regular raid, only without the troll outrolling them and selling the item to a vendor. Isn't that the real problem, here?
We've already skewed the reward/time ratio by introducing a system like this in the first place. Might as well skew it in the favor of rewards and set a player up with gear that'd prep them for current tier raiding. I mean, that's what the point of the system is in the first place, right? Accessibility!
If it's still a problem, then they shouldn't introduce a system like this in the first place. If it's a legitimate problem, then this will only cause more grief.
EDIT: Thank you iPhone I didn't know outrolling should actually be spelled as outrunning you are very helpful
I just don't think the outcome of your idea is better than a simple need/greed roll. If loot you want drops and you get outrolled that sucks, but I personally prefer that to running a raid umpteen times and never even seeing a drop because I have bad luck with bags (as happened to me this brewfest.)
ed: nevermind that the whole "what gear do druids use" issue cuts both ways. The "low drop rate bag" setup creates situations where people get bags and open them to find loot they don't even want.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
First. Take my posts as you will. I dont care. Second. There isnt a day I come in here where people are stating the bad day hey had with pugs. It is common. The majority of them just plain suck. Period.
If the new rules are LFR only then good, it will only effect my alts, but as someone else already said they are thinking of using it for the new 5mans. Hence my original post. It is tough to fix something by putting more restrictions in place. Especially with all the special cases that exist in WoW.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget