As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
Options
[PATV] Extra Credits s.3 ep.15 - Working Conditions
Bogey
I'm back, baby!Santa Monica, CAModerator mod
I'm back, baby!Santa Monica, CAModerator mod
Posts
I have some skills but for the most part I use them for other reasons like making realtic hands for the sims {the stright hand annoyed me} and find ways to circumvent the achievement whipser crap in WOW
I mean, I don't think anyone goes into the burger flipping industry because they have a dream of touching people's lives... except maybe through E.coli.
Brand looks interesting, not my cup of tea though.
STEAM
With that being said, I think that the game industry can be demanding, I think that its a good thing sometimes. What I don't agree with is publishers cutting team members out of the credits for whatever BS they claim. I don't have an issue with the long hours that are being put in. It isn't easy to develop games, and they cost a lot of money to make. I do believe that publishers/developers can be more efficient regarding production of a game. But if that means that developers have to work 12 hr days, to get a product done by a deadline, than so be it. It is a choice to work in the games industry, and every programmer, artist, producer etc... has to make that decision for themselves to see if it worth continuing their career in game development, or move on to something else.
I mean if it were so horrible, I don't think this show would even exist.
Daniel himself said in the episode that crunch time has its place in the industry, especially when everyone understands why they're going above and beyond the normal rates. What he takes issue with is the culture of some places to encourage a permanent crunch state. That's why he cited the burnout rate at the end. For a career with an average length of five years, you'd expect to make a bit more money than the average developer does. Even if they get a job developing other software, they may still be unable to give their best to it, their best being worn down in the game industry. I can't see how such cultures are sustainable.
But then, US work hours as a whole never made sense to me. Maybe it's my European Sensibilities, but everybody needs time outside either work or their bed. I know some people literally can't afford to do otherwise, but that's something civilization as a whole needs to look at.
Herp derp.
I wrote about this in my blog, but people need to learn how to stand up for themselves. My job is owned by a man. This man put his son in charge. His son has no management skills and is a terrible person. But he hired me.
I've spent the last 15 months at this job turning the work conditions around. Not just making them good for myself, but good for everyone else. Mostly by getting his father involved in things again. Now my coworkers and I actually get raises, and breaks for lunch, and we're starting to get enough employees so that people don't have to work a double shift or the crew isn't screwed over when someone can't make it to work on any given day. Rather than, y'know, soulless management practices meant to save money and put the burden on us.
I've worked plenty of retail and food service jobs. And y'know what? In every case, they have means to protect the employees from abusive practices of management.
The problem is that nobody stands up for themselves, and this episode of Extra Credits kinda stated why - people are afraid that they'll lose their job. I was scared shitless that my boss was going to fire me when I fought to get a lot of dumb shit changed. Especially when I went over his head and got the owner involved. But I guess that's the kind of personality I have.
If the entirety of the industry's working staff stood up one day and said, "Enough with this bullshit," things would change. I'm sure your Activision or what have you would fire entire dev teams and bring new people in, but if people are willing to fucking stand up against the unfair conditions then things would actually become better. That's a message that was lacking from this episode that really disappoints me. Yes, it is essentially asking people to risk getting fired or looked on in a negative way by their employer. But goddamn it, someone has to do something. Change doesn't happen by people not speaking up. All the speaking up we hear comes AFTER people have been fired. Sure, it's made awareness a thing, but people still bend over and take it up the ass.
But my bosses had me doing their dishes and looking after their nieces and nephews, talk about a lack of appreciation. I was the sole employee of a design staffing firm while my boss was pregnant (since she pissed off everyone else). I was literally with her from the time she became pregnant, to the days she cheated on her fiance (in the office) to the day of the child's birth. And I stayed with them even through the days when she wasn't present while working a second job. But just because I was no longer willing to feel awkward, so that she could be queen, she made things very hard for me until I quit. Quitting was my mistake for sure, but I don't feel bad about it.
Team Fortress 2 Backpack: Someone you love
how about we avoid dick waving contests in threads like this about who has it worse, because it's always really, really stupid.
I think this goes back to that communication issue that so many companies talk about and promote but sometimes fail at.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
The problem is, you have a culture (at least in the US) of being told to basically "put up or shut up"
I mean, take a look at the current state of unions in the US. In their most basic form they a way for a bunch of people to stand up and say "Enough with the bullshit", but rather than having everyone be for the idea of grouping together for rights, certain groups have poisoned the general populous against them.
Right now, most people won't risk their job for any reason because they have little chance of finding another one.
And this is basically slowly killing us
Not to get off topic, but isn't part of the reason the European market is collapsing because there is too much time off and not enough work getting done?
Some would argue that the unions are part of the reason that there is a trillion dollars worth of work overseas instead of the USA. States were union labor is not forced usually have better economies than the states that force some employees to join a union.
yeah, the american south has been doing really great these days
fake edit: (No, it hasn't that was sarcastic)
Here is a breakdown of right to work states
Here is a breakdown of poverty levels in America
Here is a breakdown of unemployment rates
Oh hey, look at all those unemployed and impoverished people in right to work states, someone should tell them that their state is doing better economically since they don't have unions!
That statement is 100% premium gooseshit.
I do agree with him that the game industry for a long time botched scheduling. But it's not because they didn't know how to. The go-to book on the theory of software development management and scheduling, The Mythical Man-Month, has been around for decades. It explains all of the major fallacies in development, why crunch (and especially sustained crunch) is not just ineffective, but in fact counter productive, and other "secrets" that haven't been for quite some time.
The industry didn't just not understand scheduling. They chose not to.
This. Crunch time can work when those doing the work are motivated and have a genuine drive for what's being done, but generally, burning out those doing the work is very counterproductive.
The difficulties the Eurozone is facing have many different causes, but having six weeks off a year is not one of them.
The Eurozone is having problems for other reasons, sweet jobs are not it. I think the biggest problems, is they pay too much money without getting anything in return. Health care is about a third of expenses, but that is everywhere. Health care is expensive. The government is simply paying out too much and they are too afraid to cut programs. The US is doing the same thing, cutting benefits to workers and trying to trim costs because they lack the testicular fortitude to just cancel a program. You can only trim so much before you cut a program.
That progress could very well be accelerated by employees focusing more on the working conditions instead of promised paycheck when applying to a company.
What interesting is the northern states in the central, that have right to work are thriving, and other states that do not have that are failing as well. Your graphs are inconsistent and only prove that individual states have their own enconomies and challenges. Your facts are incomplete and crude. New Jersey for example has a huge problem with public sector union, leaving us a with an easily exploitable pension fund under 40 Billion Dollars underfunded, and the incomes are scewed a little because the average public sector employee makes around $50,000 a year or so, with many more making a few hundred thousand a year. Not to mention they get to cash in unused sick and vacation time for huge pay days upon retirement, and up until very recently, had the ability to collect multiple pensions, with only having 1 full time job.
There is also 1 trillion dollars of work overseas, because it is simply cheaper to outsource it. Part of that is because foreign countries are willing to do more for less, and another part is that US Labor Unions can be such a headache to work with, that companies would rather outsource rather than deal with the headache. The private unions have priced themselves out of the market, because the only thing they really knew how to do was strike. Thats like trying to just use a hammer to build a house.
They tried to tax rich, but wind up losing revenue because they simply left the state, and now other states get the base tax revenue that NJ would get.
Myself, my wife, and my brothers all work around 50+ a week. To make a general statement without even researching the field I think is ignorant. I know people hate millionaires nowadays, but most of them have to work for a living, and it is certainly more than the "inefficient" 60 hours a week.
The euro zones borrow more than they can pay. Part of those sweet jobs were retirement packages that were simply unaffordable. Now the country has more DEFICIT than their GDP. Not debt. DEFICIT. The people continue to protest and riot. I fear those will get worse if they do not pass the austerity measures in order to get bailed out, as the state will not be able to pay for police protection. Protests have already gotten violent over there, with police. Imagine without them.
So
once they pass, they will be angrier.
Also, no one hates millionaires, poll after poll shows people have a favorable opinion of millionaires but a negative opinion of financial regulation and the financial market in general.
So, you know, sweeping statements and all that.
Did you even look at them before you posted?
They are protesting the austerity measures sure. Once the state goes bankrupt and police and the army no longer getting paid, what will they do then?
Greece isn't going to go broke, and you implicaton that the citizens would just go balls out crazy and rip each other to pieces is stupid.
Not everyone works for a large corporation. Many small business owners do well for themselves, but have to work massive hours to do so.
Its 1000x better than being broke.
As far as my implication, I'm basing it on other scenarios where there was no order. Like when the levies broke in New Orleans, and the cops quit. Fortunately that they had the feds to bail them out (unfortunately too late), and order is restored. Who will bail out Greece when they can't pay the bills?
Wow man, just wow. What businesses are you talking about?
The fucking eurozone, which is in the process of doing so right now?
Katrina was a disaster, not an economic situation. God, I bet you masturbate at night to a picture of Ayn Rand.
Shit if I were in charge, I wouldn't bail them out until they made SIGNIFICANT changes to the way they do things, otherwise the problem will just repeat itself.
I can see you are getting personal, a little frustrated. I have no idea who Ayn Rand is. I'm just someone who works hard for a living, and is married to someone who shares similar ideals/work ethic.
When you can't win, insult!
Both of the owners drive Lexus RX 350s Limiteds. Interesting.