So you're referring to the fact that the BMGs were planning to betray the Institute when we helped them kill the Staffers?
But it didn't even get that far, we had already lost by then. The only special that was of any specific use in the end game was me, so they could have killed me. Well the fact of the matter is that I probably would have died a hell of a lot sooner if I wasn't in the institute so I can't see that as a disadvantage.
telcus on
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tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
So you're referring to the fact that the BMGs were planning to betray the Institute when we helped them kill the Staffers?
But it didn't even get that far, we had already lost by then. The only special that was of any specific use in the end game was me, so they could have killed me. Well the fact of the matter is that I probably would have died a hell of a lot sooner if I wasn't in the institute so I can't see that as a disadvantage.
Jesus Christ are these the worst good specials ever? I mean if they do wipe out the hospital staff they would be handing us the game, and I doubt that many of them have signed on for Ardor's "I don't care if I hurt my own team lets just have fun" strategy.
They would have to go after us at some point to win.
By giving the BM the names of the patient specials and then helping them kill the Staff the institute screwed things up for the village and handed the victory over to the BM.
Well frandel is a meanie poopoo head. Also, plut sucks for exposing the Institute to the BMG. Yes I am hypocritical.
However, as it played out, the village specials were protected through out the game from the BMG, so you can't really count that as a disadvantage.
The bottom line is that you guys handed victory over to the BM and then all cheered when the patients actually lost.
The good specials worked for the benefit of the BM, not the village. That's why they were protected. If you guys decided to actually try to win (which you didn't, which is the issue), the BM could've killed you and/or sent you to the waiting room anyway, since they knew who you all were.
Can the villagers who disagree with the Institution please give me an example of where the Institution did some ingame action that was bad for the village?
I'm honestly curious because we never voted for someone we knew was a villager, I never stabbed someone I knew was a villager.
If the win condition wasn't that they just had to kill only 75% of the village population rather than the more traditional, they have to outnumber the village, then this game would still be going. They would then have to betray us. They had no direct kills (except for the vote switch). So after the betrayal, at least one of the villagers in the Institute would have been able to tell the rest of the villagers what was going on through the glass of the chamber.
This seems like a storm in a teacup to me. The biggest thing that killed the villagers chance of winning was the condition that the baddies only had to kill 75% of us, and that our mass vigilantes wasted their riots on the first day, which had nothing to do with the institute. In closing, flahhh!
Can the villagers who disagree with the Institution please give me an example of where the Institution did some ingame action that was bad for the village?
Handing us the list of patient specials? Merely cooperating with us greatly increased our chances of finding the staff by eliminating other targets.
For what it's worth Gnasty and Kin33 have a point. They're picking an inappropriate phalla to dig in their heels about it but if everybody acts in a fashion inconsistent with their win conditions we don't have a game. Which in the end is the real problem with actions like this. It's a bit like littering. Sure, that candy wrapper isn't going to ruin the world, 6+ billion candy wrappers make the world a shitty place and things don't work very well....
PrecisionK, excellent game my good man. It was hella fun just from the RP side of things and nicely immersive. Kudos to you.
Essentially Senior Fish and GrimmyTOA fucked the game for the patients on Day 1. They BOTH used their rioting powers right off the bat such a waste.
Seriously; I don't see how anyone could have thought this was a good idea.
Bah.
The Fruedian Five were weak!
Lies! The fact that one of them was hospital staff and one was an octopus, I would have been kept alive for longer (Had Fish not frickin killed me.) and I could have formulated a decent plan of action.
I already didn't trust DA because he didn't post on our message boards at all, while everyone else in the 5 had. Remember, this was day one.
Blargh.
Well is somebody had bloody approved me earlier when I had time I would have posted. I honestly intended to play with you guys as much as possible since I thought it was cool as hell.
Essentially Senior Fish and GrimmyTOA fucked the game for the patients on Day 1. They BOTH used their rioting powers right off the bat such a waste.
Seriously; I don't see how anyone could have thought this was a good idea.
Bah.
The Fruedian Five were weak!
Lies! The fact that one of them was hospital staff and one was an octopus, I would have been kept alive for longer (Had Fish not frickin killed me.) and I could have formulated a decent plan of action.
I already didn't trust DA because he didn't post on our message boards at all, while everyone else in the 5 had. Remember, this was day one.
Blargh.
Well is somebody had bloody approved me earlier when I had time I would have posted. I honestly intended to play with you guys as much as possible since I thought it was cool as hell.
Yeah, yeah.
I see through you. Like glass.
And yeah, it would've been a lot of fun playing up our little group. I mean, I had someone calling for my death in the Haunted House phalla, who was in my fake Scooby Doo group!
I trusted people a bit more this game. Ah well. :P
Taking a look at things, several of us at a later point realized the only way to win this was to be able to kill both the last of the BM and staffers on the same night. As statistics dictates, 75% of the patients would be dead by the time we were close to getting to the last of either side. If the rules were to outnumber the bad guys like a standard game, we had a decent chance. However, once we found out from the BM guys that there were 7 of them and probably 7 staffers too, the numbers were almost incredibly against us.
As far as vigilante stuff went, for the most part, Telcus chose his targets based upon who wasn't with us and with what our seers or Fish found out, hence the Marx and DA kill.
We decided at the beginning of the game that since PK is crazy and so his game probably would be as well, we'd play this one a little different. In no other game has anyone in the Institute played to screw over their own side, we've always played to win. This game we decided was to be the exception since we didn't have a clue what was going on.
Even if Fish and Grimmy had waited long enough to use their powers to a better extent, they might've been dead and not even had the chance to get the kills they got this game as it is. The patients only had the pencil and two rioters plus the vote. Our winning relied *very* heavily on the other two groups killing lots of each other.
Ardor, I take savage delight in the fact that I totally called you out on Day 3 or whatever for acting unusual. Almost managed to get you bandwagoned too, until everyone stopped and went, "Wait, Ardor? Nah... he's always got our best interests in mind."
Ah, sweet irony. Can't wait to hear Hakkekage's take on this, in particular
Was Robothero a black market person? If not... wow, how dumb could you have been... I should have just posted the staff win condition and stated I needed to be alive till more black market's died in order for the patients to win.
after 8 days, I was long past the point of not caring anymore. The patients were fucked right off the bat and there was no reason to drag it out.
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
edited June 2007
Oh damn, so we lost
Boo
I really enjoyed this Phalla; so much bloody fun. Of course, it sort of sucked that I was naught but a regular villager again. I had no contacts, no revelations, no behind the scenes shenanigans--bah.
Well guys this was my last Phalla. Meow mrr mew. I'll be back in August; you have to help me get back into the groove.
Ardor, I take savage delight in the fact that I totally called you out on Day 3 or whatever for acting unusual. Almost managed to get you bandwagoned too, until everyone stopped and went, "Wait, Ardor? Nah... he's always got our best interests in mind."
Ah, sweet irony. Can't wait to hear Hakkekage's take on this, in particular
I'd have to go check, but I thought I stated at least once that this game should be played either fr fun or that PK's game is just insane, trying to hint I might've been playing a different style game this time around, I might be wrong though, it happens often.
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
Ardor, I take savage delight in the fact that I totally called you out on Day 3 or whatever for acting unusual. Almost managed to get you bandwagoned too, until everyone stopped and went, "Wait, Ardor? Nah... he's always got our best interests in mind."
Ah, sweet irony. Can't wait to hear Hakkekage's take on this, in particular
Yeah well dammit, I can't ever read this crazy man
How come you guys weren't all upset when the changelings decided to shit all over the witches' chances of winning in Salem and partner up with the village on the last day?
Were the witches a longshot, like the patients? Yup. Where was the outrage then?
Seems like it's mostly motivated by being the losing party, which is why I didn't get any support for my frustrations.
Probably because in that case, it was a team with ZERO chance of victory (the changelings) making sure their rivals in evil didn't win.
In this case, it was a team with SOME chance of victory (the patients) getting betrayed by their own teammates.
Yup, I'm dredging up an hours old argument, even when all the frustration behind it has mostly died down. I'm pathetic like that, alright?
Could you go ahead and tell me, then, what conditions have to exist before a betrayal of win conditions is acceptable?
Is it that NO chance thing? Because that's fairly arbitrary. Some might have argued that I had no chance the night before the last in Salem, as I had a bandwagon headed straight for me, and the math firmly supported the proposition that I was a baddie. Still, I kept up the fight. Perhaps if Elkamil had provided the amount of thought that I did, he might have lived on as well. Similarly, our belief that the patients were up shit creek without a paddle is obviously not the only way to look at the patients' chances this game.
I don't think I'm going to convince you of my point, but I refuse to allow your point to be the last one in the argument. What you have there is essentially "When I think it's okay to ignore your win condition, it's okay to ignore your win condition," which is obviously a really lousy way to determine when it's acceptable. The betrayal only slighted three people in the previous game, so there wasn't a large public outcry. Here, it made several people think they never had a chance, hence the outcry.
Your argument about how it was a bad team trying to stop another bad team from winning is similarly flawed. Good and bad are hardly valid identifiers in these games, as although teams may exist as "the evil entity" in these games, they are still made up of your fellow players, who are not so arbitrarily good or evil. One team betrayed its win condition to give the game to another faction by helping that faction crush a third faction. That sentence accurately describes what happened in each of these two games.
Also, if Elkamil wanders in and sees this, I'd like you to know that I'm not frustrated about Salem anymore, that I'm just using these events as an example.
I'm going to try to keep this short, because I feel like I've harped on it too much already.
In the case of the Salem phalla, Elkamil was the only one left living on his team, and through his own inattentiveness he had completely given away his guilt. I don't think he could be said to have had the same chance you did, at that point.
As far as bad vs bad vs good, you're right that as far as each team's members go, the concept of "evil" doesn't apply. However, I think you'll agree that when two bad teams are explicitly stated as rivals of one another, they tend to view their opposites as the primary threat (this thread being a perfect example). Therefore, I can see why somebody might try to sabotage the other team when his own team was on its way out. Not all players would, but I find it quite understandable.
But the real clincher here is that Elkamil's teammates knew what he was doing when he decided to take you down with him. In this phalla, your impromptu network sold the village out without a word. We had no idea the thing even existed, being part of that whole uninformed majority and all.
Maybe you think I'm splitting hairs, but I believe the situations to be completely different. I hope this response explains my thoughts a bit better than that somewhat snappy remark I made earlier.
What was our win condition, exactly? Kill all the baddies? All 14 of them? Seemed pretty unlikely, especially after both our riots were used up after night 1. Why not cast our lots with another faction?
At the expense of having an assured win and basically breaking the game? Against the BMG and the patient specials the Staff had no chance whatsoever. How is that fun for us?
Just have to say that I agree, I was never a big fan of what the institute did. The only reason the rest of the black marketers found out about the group was that marx called plutonium and zerinan out for what they did. I would not have worked with them, but it was plutoniums choice. I couldn't act against plutonium and the institute, because it was against my win conditions (I wasn't going to solve one betrayal with another).
To be honest, I'm not completely happy that Plut outright gave up the Institute to the BMG straight off the bat. I was under the assumption he was double agenting like me. I can see how that can be percieved as game breaking.
The only reason he did that was because he was forced to. After marx made his reveal and then zerinan and plutonium commented it was clear that plutonium and zerinan attempted to fuck us over the same way that you fucked over the village. At that point I at least, was going to make my first priority burning down the institute if some more information from plutonium wasn't forthcoming.
So the hospital staff going to open up their boards?
I very strongly agree with Gnasty, Kin33, DA, fgslip, cheez, et all. Ardor is the only person posting a good defense for himself and the institute. Patients didn't have a snowball's chance in hell, and had others posted this I would be fine with your actions; but "for fun"?
Consider that your "fun" is at the cost of others....on your own team. Insane phalla or not, there is an obligation of integrity and good sportsmanship around here.
from this point forward i'm going to randomly pick a person signed up on the list, and agree to team up with them no matter what side i'm on and help their side win. It will be fun for me, fuck the rest of you.
I'm going to try to keep this short, because I feel like I've harped on it too much already.
In the case of the Salem phalla, Elkamil was the only one left living on his team, and through his own inattentiveness he had completely given away his guilt. I don't think he could be said to have had the same chance you did, at that point.
As far as bad vs bad vs good, you're right that as far as each team's members go, the concept of "evil" doesn't apply. However, I think you'll agree that when two bad teams are explicitly stated as rivals of one another, they tend to view their opposites as the primary threat (this thread being a perfect example). Therefore, I can see why somebody might try to sabotage the other team when his own team was on its way out. Not all players would, but I find it quite understandable.
But the real clincher here is that Elkamil's teammates knew what he was doing when he decided to take you down with him. In this phalla, your impromptu network sold the village out without a word. We had no idea the thing even existed, being part of that whole uninformed majority and all.
Maybe you think I'm splitting hairs, but I believe the situations to be completely different. I hope this response explains my thoughts a bit better than that somewhat snappy remark I made earlier.
So what Elkamil did was okay because he wasn't really paying too much attention to the game? You're gonna have a hard time selling me on that one.
And it's okay when everyone on the team decides to abandon their win condition? I think we need to figure out what the real problem is here. Is the problem that one group decided to give up on their own win condition, or is the problem that one group had their own chances of winning thwarted by two others working together under suspect pretenses?
[EDIT] Also, as for your "rivals" point, that's hardly a set thing either. In Salem, we witches tried to work together with the changelings to beat the village. I don't think anyone would have really had a problem with that team up either, except for at the end, where the village would have been all "oh, you guys suck."
I very strongly agree with Gnasty, Kin33, DA, fgslip, cheez, et all. Ardor is the only person posting a good defense for himself and the institute. Patients didn't have a snowball's chance in hell, and had others posted this I would be fine with your actions; but "for fun"?
Consider that your "fun" is at the cost of others....on your own team. Insane phalla or not, there is an obligation of integrity and good sportsmanship around here.
I've just got a question to ask of you.
Knowing what you know now, if the Institute had not existed and let's assume the BMG still won, or the staffers for that matter, this arguing would have been against PK for having unfair rules against the patients. That being said, wouldn't some folks still feel slighted?
We had planned to eliminate the staffers and then attempt to nuke what was left of the BMG, however, once we found out the 75% clause, it was really a lost cause. For a while we thought that perhaps the staff needed to kill all patients to win, but we unfortunately came to the conclusion that it didn't matter in the end.
One way or the other, there were going to be unhappy feelings out of this. If you want to blame anybody for that network, you should blame me for it since I approached B:L and Shamus at the start of the game and suggested we try something different. Sure, both agreed, but I was the person to come out and suggest it in the first place.
For what it's worth I both apologize to those who feel I slighted them and/or wasted their time, but I didn't plan on playing with this mindset in the future, we just felt we should try it once because it seemed to fit the theme.
I have found that I enjoy these games when I put more effort into them as being the normal villager/patient/innocent is not always the most fun role to have. As I've stated time and time again, my method of combatting this is to team up with someone at the start of the game. If we are on different sides, the information we can share each other about what roles exist without giving names, is beneficial to both parties. Also, we try to not get each other killed and it still allows us both to discuss thoughts, strategies etc since there's typically multiple factions in these games.
EDIT: Also, I may as well say it even though I've implied it, I always try to win these games for my side, even though many may see it the other way. By allowing some of our specials, or at least the vigilante and one seer, be exempt from being killed on even nights for the most part, we gave ourselves more chances to quickly finish the staffers and put up a good fight against the BMG.
EDIT2: Thanks for the fun game PK, I appreciate the time you put into this and allowing us to feed our phalla addiction.
So far as I can tell, Ardor's little crew helped rather than hurt the patients' chances, by keeping the specials mostly alive. It's true that the BMG benefited even more than the patients did, but that was a necessary consequence of the arrangement.
In any other game I might have been upset at the outcome and how it happened, but in this game I really had no idea what was going on from start to finish, and it looks like the other patients didn't know either. If Ardor had approached me before I ended up in the waiting room, I would have joined his Institute without hesitation.
Wait a minute. I was talking to both Ardor and B:L right from the start, and you guys know me well enough to know I would have gone along. Why didn't I get invited?
Oh yeah, my major gripe with the game was the sheer hell involved in keeping up with the thread. This is the first one I've quit following after I died.
Knowing what you know now, if the Institute had not existed and let's assume the BMG still won, or the staffers for that matter, this arguing would have been against PK for having unfair rules against the patients. That being said, wouldn't some folks still feel slighted?
Sometimes you don't have a very good chance of winning. Nothing wrong with that and I think what PK did with 2 evil factions and villagers in the middle is a welcome departure. Playing for victory is still fun when you don't know it is hopeless and, as such, I had fun this game.
It's just the post-game attitude of some people which gives me the impression they made their moves for the wrong reasons; that they had no intentions of playing for their own team. I think that is what is hardest to swallow.
I think we decided to extend the invite to those around us on the list if they were around and active, to join our network. At first, it was myself, Telcus because he contacted me with a pencil, B:L and Shamus.
From there, we had Zerinan let in because he talks to me via aim during these and since it was obvious he was a bad guy, we decided we could let him in. Plutonium was next to me I think and took the offer. I'm not sure about all others.
I'll be honest, I'd love nothing more than to be in some network with most everyone here, I'm trying little by little to get that chance with everyone.
Thanks so much PK for subbing me in, I really had fun once I got in here. Can't believe I actually got killed but it was perfect timing because I usually can't play too much on mondays anyway. I never really care about betrayals (although Shamus will never be safe from me, ever) because Phalla to me is just a different can of craziness every time we play it.
I think we're getting too comfortable with who we trust anyway in these games.
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
edited June 2007
I think a major problem with the specials here was them not using their one-time-use powers. Just stop stalling and do it!
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Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I have the attention span of a retarded fish. Remind me what he said.
Don't worry, I'm getting it all out of my system now. In fact, I think I'm done.
Hey, TehSpectre. I'm ready to make out.
But it didn't even get that far, we had already lost by then. The only special that was of any specific use in the end game was me, so they could have killed me. Well the fact of the matter is that I probably would have died a hell of a lot sooner if I wasn't in the institute so I can't see that as a disadvantage.
Or when my Phalla begins.
It's not going to be quite so obtuse, but it's not clear-cut either.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Rawr.
This is probably what cheez was referring to:
By giving the BM the names of the patient specials and then helping them kill the Staff the institute screwed things up for the village and handed the victory over to the BM.
However, as it played out, the village specials were protected through out the game from the BMG, so you can't really count that as a disadvantage.
The good specials worked for the benefit of the BM, not the village. That's why they were protected. If you guys decided to actually try to win (which you didn't, which is the issue), the BM could've killed you and/or sent you to the waiting room anyway, since they knew who you all were.
I can't see how I could've played for the village more effectively. I killed 5 bad guys out of 7 tries for golly gosh!
Betrayed the BMG earlier/not killed Mazlo =p
edit: In fact it was your last two staffer kills that won the BMG the game.(which is a loss for the patients since I know some people are confused).
I'm over it now. GG, don't whine if this happens in the future then if you guys don't want us to whine now is all I got to say.
I'm honestly curious because we never voted for someone we knew was a villager, I never stabbed someone I knew was a villager.
If the win condition wasn't that they just had to kill only 75% of the village population rather than the more traditional, they have to outnumber the village, then this game would still be going. They would then have to betray us. They had no direct kills (except for the vote switch). So after the betrayal, at least one of the villagers in the Institute would have been able to tell the rest of the villagers what was going on through the glass of the chamber.
This seems like a storm in a teacup to me. The biggest thing that killed the villagers chance of winning was the condition that the baddies only had to kill 75% of us, and that our mass vigilantes wasted their riots on the first day, which had nothing to do with the institute. In closing, flahhh!
Handing us the list of patient specials? Merely cooperating with us greatly increased our chances of finding the staff by eliminating other targets.
For what it's worth Gnasty and Kin33 have a point. They're picking an inappropriate phalla to dig in their heels about it but if everybody acts in a fashion inconsistent with their win conditions we don't have a game. Which in the end is the real problem with actions like this. It's a bit like littering. Sure, that candy wrapper isn't going to ruin the world, 6+ billion candy wrappers make the world a shitty place and things don't work very well....
PrecisionK, excellent game my good man. It was hella fun just from the RP side of things and nicely immersive. Kudos to you.
Well is somebody had bloody approved me earlier when I had time I would have posted. I honestly intended to play with you guys as much as possible since I thought it was cool as hell.
I see through you. Like glass.
And yeah, it would've been a lot of fun playing up our little group. I mean, I had someone calling for my death in the Haunted House phalla, who was in my fake Scooby Doo group!
I trusted people a bit more this game. Ah well. :P
As far as vigilante stuff went, for the most part, Telcus chose his targets based upon who wasn't with us and with what our seers or Fish found out, hence the Marx and DA kill.
We decided at the beginning of the game that since PK is crazy and so his game probably would be as well, we'd play this one a little different. In no other game has anyone in the Institute played to screw over their own side, we've always played to win. This game we decided was to be the exception since we didn't have a clue what was going on.
Even if Fish and Grimmy had waited long enough to use their powers to a better extent, they might've been dead and not even had the chance to get the kills they got this game as it is. The patients only had the pencil and two rioters plus the vote. Our winning relied *very* heavily on the other two groups killing lots of each other.
Ah, sweet irony. Can't wait to hear Hakkekage's take on this, in particular
after 8 days, I was long past the point of not caring anymore. The patients were fucked right off the bat and there was no reason to drag it out.
Boo
I really enjoyed this Phalla; so much bloody fun. Of course, it sort of sucked that I was naught but a regular villager again. I had no contacts, no revelations, no behind the scenes shenanigans--bah.
Well guys this was my last Phalla. Meow mrr mew. I'll be back in August; you have to help me get back into the groove.
NNID: Hakkekage
I'd have to go check, but I thought I stated at least once that this game should be played either fr fun or that PK's game is just insane, trying to hint I might've been playing a different style game this time around, I might be wrong though, it happens often.
Yeah well dammit, I can't ever read this crazy man
He craaaazy, you see
I have a legitimate excuse
NNID: Hakkekage
Yup, I'm dredging up an hours old argument, even when all the frustration behind it has mostly died down. I'm pathetic like that, alright?
Could you go ahead and tell me, then, what conditions have to exist before a betrayal of win conditions is acceptable?
Is it that NO chance thing? Because that's fairly arbitrary. Some might have argued that I had no chance the night before the last in Salem, as I had a bandwagon headed straight for me, and the math firmly supported the proposition that I was a baddie. Still, I kept up the fight. Perhaps if Elkamil had provided the amount of thought that I did, he might have lived on as well. Similarly, our belief that the patients were up shit creek without a paddle is obviously not the only way to look at the patients' chances this game.
I don't think I'm going to convince you of my point, but I refuse to allow your point to be the last one in the argument. What you have there is essentially "When I think it's okay to ignore your win condition, it's okay to ignore your win condition," which is obviously a really lousy way to determine when it's acceptable. The betrayal only slighted three people in the previous game, so there wasn't a large public outcry. Here, it made several people think they never had a chance, hence the outcry.
Your argument about how it was a bad team trying to stop another bad team from winning is similarly flawed. Good and bad are hardly valid identifiers in these games, as although teams may exist as "the evil entity" in these games, they are still made up of your fellow players, who are not so arbitrarily good or evil. One team betrayed its win condition to give the game to another faction by helping that faction crush a third faction. That sentence accurately describes what happened in each of these two games.
Also, if Elkamil wanders in and sees this, I'd like you to know that I'm not frustrated about Salem anymore, that I'm just using these events as an example.
Sure, I will send you the PM with a list of names.
I'm going to try to keep this short, because I feel like I've harped on it too much already.
In the case of the Salem phalla, Elkamil was the only one left living on his team, and through his own inattentiveness he had completely given away his guilt. I don't think he could be said to have had the same chance you did, at that point.
As far as bad vs bad vs good, you're right that as far as each team's members go, the concept of "evil" doesn't apply. However, I think you'll agree that when two bad teams are explicitly stated as rivals of one another, they tend to view their opposites as the primary threat (this thread being a perfect example). Therefore, I can see why somebody might try to sabotage the other team when his own team was on its way out. Not all players would, but I find it quite understandable.
But the real clincher here is that Elkamil's teammates knew what he was doing when he decided to take you down with him. In this phalla, your impromptu network sold the village out without a word. We had no idea the thing even existed, being part of that whole uninformed majority and all.
Maybe you think I'm splitting hairs, but I believe the situations to be completely different. I hope this response explains my thoughts a bit better than that somewhat snappy remark I made earlier.
Just have to say that I agree, I was never a big fan of what the institute did. The only reason the rest of the black marketers found out about the group was that marx called plutonium and zerinan out for what they did. I would not have worked with them, but it was plutoniums choice. I couldn't act against plutonium and the institute, because it was against my win conditions (I wasn't going to solve one betrayal with another).
The only reason he did that was because he was forced to. After marx made his reveal and then zerinan and plutonium commented it was clear that plutonium and zerinan attempted to fuck us over the same way that you fucked over the village. At that point I at least, was going to make my first priority burning down the institute if some more information from plutonium wasn't forthcoming.
So the hospital staff going to open up their boards?
Consider that your "fun" is at the cost of others....on your own team. Insane phalla or not, there is an obligation of integrity and good sportsmanship around here.
And it's okay when everyone on the team decides to abandon their win condition? I think we need to figure out what the real problem is here. Is the problem that one group decided to give up on their own win condition, or is the problem that one group had their own chances of winning thwarted by two others working together under suspect pretenses?
[EDIT] Also, as for your "rivals" point, that's hardly a set thing either. In Salem, we witches tried to work together with the changelings to beat the village. I don't think anyone would have really had a problem with that team up either, except for at the end, where the village would have been all "oh, you guys suck."
I've just got a question to ask of you.
Knowing what you know now, if the Institute had not existed and let's assume the BMG still won, or the staffers for that matter, this arguing would have been against PK for having unfair rules against the patients. That being said, wouldn't some folks still feel slighted?
We had planned to eliminate the staffers and then attempt to nuke what was left of the BMG, however, once we found out the 75% clause, it was really a lost cause. For a while we thought that perhaps the staff needed to kill all patients to win, but we unfortunately came to the conclusion that it didn't matter in the end.
One way or the other, there were going to be unhappy feelings out of this. If you want to blame anybody for that network, you should blame me for it since I approached B:L and Shamus at the start of the game and suggested we try something different. Sure, both agreed, but I was the person to come out and suggest it in the first place.
For what it's worth I both apologize to those who feel I slighted them and/or wasted their time, but I didn't plan on playing with this mindset in the future, we just felt we should try it once because it seemed to fit the theme.
I have found that I enjoy these games when I put more effort into them as being the normal villager/patient/innocent is not always the most fun role to have. As I've stated time and time again, my method of combatting this is to team up with someone at the start of the game. If we are on different sides, the information we can share each other about what roles exist without giving names, is beneficial to both parties. Also, we try to not get each other killed and it still allows us both to discuss thoughts, strategies etc since there's typically multiple factions in these games.
EDIT: Also, I may as well say it even though I've implied it, I always try to win these games for my side, even though many may see it the other way. By allowing some of our specials, or at least the vigilante and one seer, be exempt from being killed on even nights for the most part, we gave ourselves more chances to quickly finish the staffers and put up a good fight against the BMG.
EDIT2: Thanks for the fun game PK, I appreciate the time you put into this and allowing us to feed our phalla addiction.
In any other game I might have been upset at the outcome and how it happened, but in this game I really had no idea what was going on from start to finish, and it looks like the other patients didn't know either. If Ardor had approached me before I ended up in the waiting room, I would have joined his Institute without hesitation.
Wait a minute. I was talking to both Ardor and B:L right from the start, and you guys know me well enough to know I would have gone along. Why didn't I get invited?
I fucked up too.
I used my ability when NO ONE was in the waiting room.
A winner is you. :P
Sometimes you don't have a very good chance of winning. Nothing wrong with that and I think what PK did with 2 evil factions and villagers in the middle is a welcome departure. Playing for victory is still fun when you don't know it is hopeless and, as such, I had fun this game.
It's just the post-game attitude of some people which gives me the impression they made their moves for the wrong reasons; that they had no intentions of playing for their own team. I think that is what is hardest to swallow.
I'm a bad enough dude to save the President.
From there, we had Zerinan let in because he talks to me via aim during these and since it was obvious he was a bad guy, we decided we could let him in. Plutonium was next to me I think and took the offer. I'm not sure about all others.
I'll be honest, I'd love nothing more than to be in some network with most everyone here, I'm trying little by little to get that chance with everyone.
I think we're getting too comfortable with who we trust anyway in these games.
Also, passed driver's test, wooo
NNID: Hakkekage
My goal for this game was to get everyone in unison to vote for Father. ;-)