Nice product placement, I guess. Pathfinder is no older than fourth edition, though it's certainly built on 3.5. This is the sort of comic which seriously makes me wonder if they're taking ad payments for the strip.
What is this I don't even.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited November 2011
Using Pathfinder (a derivative of 3.5) as a solution to problems with epic level play is like trying to solve your kids playing with matches by giving them live hand grenades instead. 4E has a difficult, but workable epic tier of power while 3.5 you might as well pretend everything over a certain level doesn't exist. How Gabe is going to deal with the sheer power of spellcasters in Pathfinder (3.5 really) compared to everyone else will be a really jarring challenge for him. Definitely a poor solution, when 4E has solutions that work already in the system without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Edit: I don't view this as product placement, it is actually a fairly logical (somewhat) alternative for Tycho to pick. It just won't work the instant the players pick up on just how ridiculous high level magic can be abused. Gabe has problems now, what's going to happen after that will pale in comparison. I feel sorry for whoever is a fighter in Gabes game if he wants to play an epic 3.5x fighter.
JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Yeah, I am...not optimistic about how this will work out for Gabe's campaign, but whatever. It's his journey of discovery.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Nice product placement, I guess. Pathfinder is no older than fourth edition, though it's certainly built on 3.5. This is the sort of comic which seriously makes me wonder if they're taking ad payments for the strip.
You are talking about a video game comic.
Every comic that is about a video game is a 'product placement' because it is inherently about that product.
If you earnestly believe that they take cash prizes to insert shit into the comic you are off your rocker.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I assume that's Batman: Year One in the first panel? (I don't remember the exact wording of that scene) After looking up Pathfinder, it seems odd for Tycho to pick something so recent. I assumed it was an old 1st or 2nd edition AD&D book until this thread got me to look closer at the cover.
I'm slightly confused. Seems like the dialog would make more sense if the first speech bubble in the last panel was a question from Gabe rather than a statement from Tycho.
Edit:
Oh, wait, I see. Tycho is saying that the current campaign is equivalent to loaves and fishes, not that it is currently (about to become) the time of loaves and fishes.
Pathfinder is the new oldschool. It is not WoW on tabletop, which is what 4th edition is. Pathfinder is the culmination of decades of D&D. 4th edition is not.
So to clarify 4th edition is to new testament NRV as Pathfinder is to old testament NRV (not King James).
Loopy1492 on
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
Man I don't know, pathfinder gives so much power to the PCs. I mean, I prefer it to 4th personally, but I was expecting something along the ways of a retuned temple of elemental evil or something for epic characters.
Man I don't know, pathfinder gives so much power to the PCs. I mean, I prefer it to 4th personally, but I was expecting something along the ways of a retuned temple of elemental evil or something for epic characters.
Plenty of rope to hang themselves with? Or maybe giant fireballs to blow themselves up with.
Pathfinder has flattened the power curve compared to 3.5, and balanced the classes greatly, but yes, players are still powerful at the high levels. The challenges, however, are truly deadly. This is partially due to the huge variety of tools at the GM's disposal.
I love when I play Pathfinder with a merciless DM and my whole party's quest is derailed, ending with everyone being devoured by invisible werewolves while I take desperate and altogether useless shots at some god-like walking battle machine like Tom Hanks at the end of Saving Private Ryan, only we all die and no one earns shit.
The list of games on the front page got me nostalgic for some old-school RPGs. Thought I'd supply my own list of stuff I'd played:
Top Secret
Gamma World
D&D, in addition to AD&D
Ars Magica
The Primal Order (gee, what happened to that company?)
Vampire, Mage, Werewolf
Shadowrun
Feng Shui
Add to that a growing number of games written by friends, which I'm ashamed I haven't played yet:
Dogs in the Vineyard
Shock
1001 Nights
Kill Puppies for Satan
I love when I play Pathfinder with a merciless DM and my whole party's quest is derailed, ending with everyone being devoured by invisible werewolves while I take desperate and altogether useless shots at some god-like walking battle machine like Tom Hanks at the end of Saving Private Ryan, only we all die and no one earns shit.
That's not a problem with Pathfinder. A situation like that is generally a problem with a lack of mutual respect between the GM and the players. That issue is system-neutral.
Loopy1492 on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Pathfinder has flattened the power curve compared to 3.5, and balanced the classes greatly
Not really, as spellcasters still dominate the game completely at high levels because it's the old problem of "This guy can basically do anything" and "This guy has a soup spoon and a colander hat". Sure, the soup spoon might be vorpal and his hat is really very hard, but ultimately he's still completely and utterly useless vs. the guy who can do anything he basically wants at this point. Anyone competent enough to play high level pathfinder, is going to be able to break the system in half just like in 3.5. It has done precisely jack all in curbing the power of spellcasters and actually some are better off in Pathfinder than they were before. Martial classes are no less useless in high level pathfinder as they are in 3.5 as well, which is the whole classic dilemma that exponentially powerful spellcasters have always presented in pathfinder (and in fairness, most advocates of 3.5/Pathfinder are perfectly fine with this).
The point is that this is a poor solution for Gabes issues, which are far better solved by simply understanding the edition he's currently playing as it works very well in epic now. Part of the problem is that when Gabe put his campaign on hiatus, the relatively new rules for monsters at epic tier (and design) were only just coming in. It's far easier to challenge players in the context of the existing rules, then learn an entirely new system that's actually way more broken at higher levels.
Note that I don't even agree with you that spellcasting is balanced against other classes in low level pathfinder either, but it is better in many ways.
The challenges, however, are truly deadly. This is partially due to the huge variety of tools at the GM's disposal.
The exact same statement applies to 4th edition, it just also comes with the caveat that half of those tools are used to be sure your players can't break your game trivially with spellcasting. The issues in 4E epic are a drop in the bucket to the 3.5/Pathfinder spellcasting nuclear arms race equivalent.
When did I say it was a problem? Sorry if my post carried some kind of sarcasm, but the game I'm referring to was fun as hell and we needed to wrap it up anyways.
I'm both running a 4e and playing in a pathfinder game at the moment. The power of a pathfinder character is noticeably higher at ALL levels as compared to 4e.
We've spent most of this storyline just having Tycho and Gabe discuss, making me wonder how much time there'll be for the payoff where the players themselves come back into view. Five-page continuity or six-page continuity?
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Maybe even another long break and then they finish it off? It was some time before the first comic in this to the second. They can always return.
Don't you see? The plan was to split the party. Tear them apart from within by sowing seeds of bitterness. Moving to a new system whereby half the players become all powerful magic Gods and half are painfully thrown back to martial mundanity is just the start of setting the green eyed monster loose.
Given that PA have practically been sponsored by Wizards and 4e of late it is odd to see their main rival appearing so prominently.
I agree that Pathfinder is a terrible way to sow seeds of discord and split the party. In fact, Pathfinder is built around the concept that, with a decent GM, a cohesive party is required in order to overcome the challenges at hand. Pathfinder doesn't measure power on a CLASS vs CLASS benchmark which a LOT of players (and game designers) wrongfully do. It's one hell of a lot more complex than that. You can't balance the Wizard and the Fighter based on how they'd do in 1v1 combat. You have to base them on how they perform during important encounters. In truth, based on the specific builds, both the Wizard and the Fighter will shine in a variety of encounter types.
And the Fighter is good. Really really good. Just because a Wizard can cast Hold Person doesn't make it better than the Fighter. That's not a proper benchmark for this kind of game. This isn't a 1v1 fighting game. It's a game about people getting together and solving problems.
Can someone put up an alternate link to the comic? Can't see it at work.
Stercus, Stercus, Stercus, Morituri Sum
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited November 2011
And the Fighter is good. Really really good. Just because a Wizard can cast Hold Person doesn't make it better than the Fighter. That's not a proper benchmark for this kind of game. This isn't a 1v1 fighting game. It's a game about people getting together and solving problems.
This really shows that you do not know what happens in high level 3.5/Pathfinder games. If you think a fighter is "good" at epic level 3.5/Pathfinder, you haven't actually played epic to see the fundamental problems that exponential spellcasters present. The problem with an epic level spellcaster is not only can they cast hold person, but they can also make themselves capable of being just as good (or even better) than the fighter at actual fighting. Not to mention that pathfinder is still designed to basically be a battlefield of the DM vs. the parties spellcasters (again, which is a relic of older versions of DnD that I definitely am glad was done away with in 4E).
I agree that Pathfinder is a terrible way to sow seeds of discord and split the party. In fact, Pathfinder is built around the concept that, with a decent GM, a cohesive party is required in order to overcome the challenges at hand.
plaaaaant
wait...i was joking before but you have been here for two years, have nine posts, and they're all pathfinder related!
Been playing Pathfinder for the past year and a half, and my party is only around levels 9-10 right now, but there is still a big difference between fighters and spellcasters and our paladin right now.
I'm a spellcaster (cleric, but with fire domain spells) and while some spells are really awesome, generally the damage is low (a couple d6 up to caster level d6) and/or spread out in a large area, and it's a 1 or 2 time a battle deal. Where the fighters can hit, and hit, and hit for about the same amount of damage each round. Then there's the paladin, who's a ridiculous monster right now against the cyclops lich king we recently fought. Anything evil, undead, etc, he can just destroy. Smite and all the related paladin abilities allow him to hit for 4x the damage of everyone else in the party. When he crits? Just call it dead.
I could see things getting really overpowered in the future perhaps, but we've had our fair share of deaths. We lost 3/4 of the party the battle with the lich king. So it's not without a challenge.
It's true. I only feel compelled to post when its about pathfinder. Our group loves the system and we advocate any way we can.
And yes I have zero experience at epic levels. I run my campaign to about level 18-20. By that time the players and I are ready to try something different. However, I do have a lot of experience with high level play and I'm telling you that wizards and clerics need to watch their asses in any kind of dynamic campaign setting that has little to do with busting down doors and killing shit.
Been playing Pathfinder for the past year and a half, and my party is only around levels 9-10 right now, but there is still a big difference between fighters and spellcasters and our paladin right now.
I'm a spellcaster (cleric, but with fire domain spells) and while some spells are really awesome, generally the damage is low (a couple d6 up to caster level d6) and/or spread out in a large area, and it's a 1 or 2 time a battle deal. Where the fighters can hit, and hit, and hit for about the same amount of damage each round. Then there's the paladin, who's a ridiculous monster right now against the cyclops lich king we recently fought. Anything evil, undead, etc, he can just destroy. Smite and all the related paladin abilities allow him to hit for 4x the damage of everyone else in the party. When he crits? Just call it dead.
I could see things getting really overpowered in the future perhaps, but we've had our fair share of deaths. We lost 3/4 of the party the battle with the lich king. So it's not without a challenge.
A Pathfinder Palladin with a longbow, and a greatsword, is so gorram frightening.
Pathfinder has flattened the power curve compared to 3.5, and balanced the classes greatly
Not really, as spellcasters still dominate the game completely at high levels because it's the old problem of "This guy can basically do anything" and "This guy has a soup spoon and a colander hat". Sure, the soup spoon might be vorpal and his hat is really very hard, but ultimately he's still completely and utterly useless vs. the guy who can do anything he basically wants at this point. Anyone competent enough to play high level pathfinder, is going to be able to break the system in half just like in 3.5. It has done precisely jack all in curbing the power of spellcasters and actually some are better off in Pathfinder than they were before. Martial classes are no less useless in high level pathfinder as they are in 3.5 as well, which is the whole classic dilemma that exponentially powerful spellcasters have always presented in pathfinder (and in fairness, most advocates of 3.5/Pathfinder are perfectly fine with this).
The point is that this is a poor solution for Gabes issues, which are far better solved by simply understanding the edition he's currently playing as it works very well in epic now. Part of the problem is that when Gabe put his campaign on hiatus, the relatively new rules for monsters at epic tier (and design) were only just coming in. It's far easier to challenge players in the context of the existing rules, then learn an entirely new system that's actually way more broken at higher levels.
Note that I don't even agree with you that spellcasting is balanced against other classes in low level pathfinder either, but it is better in many ways.
The challenges, however, are truly deadly. This is partially due to the huge variety of tools at the GM's disposal.
The exact same statement applies to 4th edition, it just also comes with the caveat that half of those tools are used to be sure your players can't break your game trivially with spellcasting. The issues in 4E epic are a drop in the bucket to the 3.5/Pathfinder spellcasting nuclear arms race equivalent.
let me introduce you to the dwarven spellbreaker inquisitor for all your overpowered arcane pc crushing needs
also PFS fixes broken characters at higher lvls by stopping at lvl 12 (although they are now allowing 13 and very soon 14)
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Andy JoeWe claim the land for the highlord!The AdirondacksRegistered Userregular
LOL. Jason Bulmahn from Paizo just posted a link to today's comic and also this on Google+
Pillars of Salt School: transmutation; Level: cleric/druid 9 Casting Time: 1 standard action Components: V, S, M (handful of salt) Range: close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Area: 10-ft-radius spread Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude half; Spell Resistance: yes
This spell calls down the fury of the heavens, transforming all heathens within its area into pillars of salt. All creatures in the area that do not share one alignment component with you take 10 points of damage per caster level. Those that are slain by this spell are transformed into pillars of salt and cannot be raised or resurrected, without first casting wish or miracle. Creatures that save against this effect, but are still slain are not transformed in this way.
Loopy1492 on
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
LOL. Jason Bulmahn from Paizo just posted a link to today's comic and also this on Google+
Pillars of Salt School: transmutation; Level: cleric/druid 9 Casting Time: 1 standard action Components: V, S, M (handful of salt) Range: close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Area: 10-ft-radius spread Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude half; Spell Resistance: yes
This spell calls down the fury of the heavens, transforming all heathens within its area into pillars of salt. All creatures in the area that do not share one alignment component with you take 10 points of damage per caster level. Those that are slain by this spell are transformed into pillars of salt and cannot be raised or resurrected, without first casting wish or miracle. Creatures that save against this effect, but are still slain are not transformed in this way.
let me introduce you to the dwarven spellbreaker inquisitor for all your overpowered arcane pc crushing needs
also PFS fixes broken characters at higher lvls by stopping at lvl 12 (although they are now allowing 13 and very soon 14)
Hm. Yes.
Obviously the solution to overpowered arcane spellcasting classes is a divine spellcasting class. Now what about the other two main offenders in the caster supremacy trinity?
And, honestly, I don't even know what to say about a level cap being the official fix.
Tempted to try to edit in a copy of Hackmaster in there if he was going truly Old Testament on the players.
Maybe edit in the cover of FATAL (was it ever actually published?).
I mean, if you really want to punish your players for playing the game you set up, you should be receiving some of the punishment as well.
Posts
Edit: I don't view this as product placement, it is actually a fairly logical (somewhat) alternative for Tycho to pick. It just won't work the instant the players pick up on just how ridiculous high level magic can be abused. Gabe has problems now, what's going to happen after that will pale in comparison. I feel sorry for whoever is a fighter in Gabes game if he wants to play an epic 3.5x fighter.
You are talking about a video game comic.
Every comic that is about a video game is a 'product placement' because it is inherently about that product.
If you earnestly believe that they take cash prizes to insert shit into the comic you are off your rocker.
Edit:
Oh, wait, I see. Tycho is saying that the current campaign is equivalent to loaves and fishes, not that it is currently (about to become) the time of loaves and fishes.
Tycho always plays for his demographic
:rotate:
So to clarify 4th edition is to new testament NRV as Pathfinder is to old testament NRV (not King James).
Plenty of rope to hang themselves with? Or maybe giant fireballs to blow themselves up with.
Top Secret
Gamma World
D&D, in addition to AD&D
Ars Magica
The Primal Order (gee, what happened to that company?)
Vampire, Mage, Werewolf
Shadowrun
Feng Shui
Add to that a growing number of games written by friends, which I'm ashamed I haven't played yet:
Dogs in the Vineyard
Shock
1001 Nights
Kill Puppies for Satan
That's not a problem with Pathfinder. A situation like that is generally a problem with a lack of mutual respect between the GM and the players. That issue is system-neutral.
Not really, as spellcasters still dominate the game completely at high levels because it's the old problem of "This guy can basically do anything" and "This guy has a soup spoon and a colander hat". Sure, the soup spoon might be vorpal and his hat is really very hard, but ultimately he's still completely and utterly useless vs. the guy who can do anything he basically wants at this point. Anyone competent enough to play high level pathfinder, is going to be able to break the system in half just like in 3.5. It has done precisely jack all in curbing the power of spellcasters and actually some are better off in Pathfinder than they were before. Martial classes are no less useless in high level pathfinder as they are in 3.5 as well, which is the whole classic dilemma that exponentially powerful spellcasters have always presented in pathfinder (and in fairness, most advocates of 3.5/Pathfinder are perfectly fine with this).
The point is that this is a poor solution for Gabes issues, which are far better solved by simply understanding the edition he's currently playing as it works very well in epic now. Part of the problem is that when Gabe put his campaign on hiatus, the relatively new rules for monsters at epic tier (and design) were only just coming in. It's far easier to challenge players in the context of the existing rules, then learn an entirely new system that's actually way more broken at higher levels.
Note that I don't even agree with you that spellcasting is balanced against other classes in low level pathfinder either, but it is better in many ways.
The exact same statement applies to 4th edition, it just also comes with the caveat that half of those tools are used to be sure your players can't break your game trivially with spellcasting. The issues in 4E epic are a drop in the bucket to the 3.5/Pathfinder spellcasting nuclear arms race equivalent.
Given that PA have practically been sponsored by Wizards and 4e of late it is odd to see their main rival appearing so prominently.
And the Fighter is good. Really really good. Just because a Wizard can cast Hold Person doesn't make it better than the Fighter. That's not a proper benchmark for this kind of game. This isn't a 1v1 fighting game. It's a game about people getting together and solving problems.
More like D&D is Pathfinder's main rival, at least since the last time I looked at the numbers.
This really shows that you do not know what happens in high level 3.5/Pathfinder games. If you think a fighter is "good" at epic level 3.5/Pathfinder, you haven't actually played epic to see the fundamental problems that exponential spellcasters present. The problem with an epic level spellcaster is not only can they cast hold person, but they can also make themselves capable of being just as good (or even better) than the fighter at actual fighting. Not to mention that pathfinder is still designed to basically be a battlefield of the DM vs. the parties spellcasters (again, which is a relic of older versions of DnD that I definitely am glad was done away with in 4E).
plaaaaant
wait...i was joking before but you have been here for two years, have nine posts, and they're all pathfinder related!
j'accuse
On the black screen
I'm a spellcaster (cleric, but with fire domain spells) and while some spells are really awesome, generally the damage is low (a couple d6 up to caster level d6) and/or spread out in a large area, and it's a 1 or 2 time a battle deal. Where the fighters can hit, and hit, and hit for about the same amount of damage each round. Then there's the paladin, who's a ridiculous monster right now against the cyclops lich king we recently fought. Anything evil, undead, etc, he can just destroy. Smite and all the related paladin abilities allow him to hit for 4x the damage of everyone else in the party. When he crits? Just call it dead.
I could see things getting really overpowered in the future perhaps, but we've had our fair share of deaths. We lost 3/4 of the party the battle with the lich king. So it's not without a challenge.
And yes I have zero experience at epic levels. I run my campaign to about level 18-20. By that time the players and I are ready to try something different. However, I do have a lot of experience with high level play and I'm telling you that wizards and clerics need to watch their asses in any kind of dynamic campaign setting that has little to do with busting down doors and killing shit.
A Pathfinder Palladin with a longbow, and a greatsword, is so gorram frightening.
Oh man, dragons are gonna hate you sooooo much.
let me introduce you to the dwarven spellbreaker inquisitor for all your overpowered arcane pc crushing needs
also PFS fixes broken characters at higher lvls by stopping at lvl 12 (although they are now allowing 13 and very soon 14)
No, the first one was just mislabeled as "Part Two".
Glitterboy for the gayest sounding walking weapon of mass destruction.
Pillars of Salt
School: transmutation; Level: cleric/druid 9
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S, M (handful of salt)
Range: close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: 10-ft-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half; Spell Resistance: yes
This spell calls down the fury of the heavens, transforming all heathens within its area into pillars of salt. All creatures in the area that do not share one alignment component with you take 10 points of damage per caster level. Those that are slain by this spell are transformed into pillars of salt and cannot be raised or resurrected, without first casting wish or miracle. Creatures that save against this effect, but are still slain are not transformed in this way.
I love paizo
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Obviously the solution to overpowered arcane spellcasting classes is a divine spellcasting class. Now what about the other two main offenders in the caster supremacy trinity?
And, honestly, I don't even know what to say about a level cap being the official fix.
Edit: oh hey, its basically mass harm.
Maybe edit in the cover of FATAL (was it ever actually published?).
I mean, if you really want to punish your players for playing the game you set up, you should be receiving some of the punishment as well.