You need to have the characters reacting realistically.
This is basically the core of your argument and why you are wrong. Community isn't about realism. Most shows aren't. Realism is often a dull affair that gets in the way of storytelling. Realism blows. If the characters in Community behaved realistically for even a second, this plot would never have happened. Hardly any of the show's stories would have happened, or could have happened. It's not a realistic show in any capacity.
What matters in fiction (because it is fiction and therefore by definition not real) is internal consistency, and Community has plenty of that, this episode included.
You've got a warped view of what's important to show in a story. You're upset with the episode's end because they don't really react to Mr. Rad's outburst, but they do. They react with bafflement and vague horror before he runs off. What happens to him after that? Irrelevant. He probably gets caught, since he confessed to murdering people in front of an entire crowd. Showing him get arrested isn't important. It isn't. It would break the flow. Showing the other characters react seriously to having dealt with a murderer also isn't necessary, because even though he killed people, Mr. Rad is hard to take seriously. Vague horror followed by relief (which is how they reacted in the episode) is a perfectly appropriate response, especially when you consider the rest of the show.
The music as also fine. Troy and Abed's rap was great, Shirley's song was great, Abed and Troy apealing to Pierce's baby-boomer self-centeredness was great. You say there was no conflict there, but that would be wrong. In Pierce's case, for instance, yeah, he was open to flattery. Which is why they appeal to that through song. Just telling him that hey, baby-boomers are great! wouldn't have won him over. The song was an essential part of his recruitment. The only case where your whole "there was no conflict!" thing even remotely applies is Annie's song to Jeff, because he's not won over at the end of it, or at least not because of Annie's increasingly creepy performance. He is, however, in a significantly more vulnerable position, and it's no stretch at all to assume that they would be able to convert him off-screen.
"Show, don't tell" is important, but "show" doesn't refer to literally just showing you exactly how something went down instead of telling you with words, it refers to the whole act of giving the audience enough information to draw their own conclusions as well.
And you don't seem to grasp that. And, again, you make the mistake of thinking that realism is in any way important, when internal consistency is the main thing.
edit: Whoops, people have moved on. Didn't mean to have this thing drag on further.
I'm going to stop because I watched it with a friend and he enjoyed it and really there's no reason that shouldn't be satisfying enough to me.
if I disagree with someone ranting I'm going to argue it though. it was on topic. at a certain point I don't disagree that it is just taking up space(and this is maybe the most pointless argument I've ever engaged in in more ways than one) but at the same time ... it was a back and forth.
also britta is the best and I don't mind britta ing things. britta all over the place.
It was multiple pages of you two being pedantic little turds and dissecting each others posts line by line. That nonsense is omnipresent in most of the other threads in this forum. It should not be something the rest of us have to suffer through here. If you realize how douchey it is then just don't do it. No excuses, no extenuating circumstances. Just don't post like a douche and ruin the thread for the rest of us. Simple.
This isn't a "worship Community" thread, it is a "discuss and debate Community" thread. I would say that, yeah, if two people want to debate something you have two choices: engage them, or suffer through the debate. Or both, I guess.
I'm no mod, but that's just how it is. It's not "threadshitting" to debate Community in a Community thread in Debate & Discourse.
I don't think they hate him, but he is a notorious pain in the ass to work with. Like a lot of jokes on this show there is some truth to it, but also a big heap of exaggeration. The purest meta-gag they have going is about how Yvette (who doesn't drink) is a raging alcoholic (this is on the S1 DVD commentaries if you haven't heard it) and it bled into the show in the bar episode in S2.
Well, there was also the clip someone posted of them playing trivia. And Joel just rips into Chevy making fun of the fact all his jokes are him answering names of his movies. "Fletch" etc. It seemed, very legit and it seemed to have this actual tone of some folks ganging up on someone they don't like. That, combined with the Soup apparence (minus him) leads me to think the dislike of him is more legit then joking.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
There was that time they rigged his chair to break when he leaned back, and tried to kill him "on accident" (that blooper scene from the first season I think where Gillian screamed like she cared, but she was just acting really well).
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
I'm still confused that at the end of Annie's boopie boop sex song (which is disturbingly true to a certain era's musical numbers) Jeff comes over to her side.
I mean, aside from the fact that Allison Brie is obviously hot, the song itself was incredibly disturbing/creepy.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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NappuccinoSurveyor of Things and StuffRegistered Userregular
Obviously she regrouped and sang an even sexier song during the scene change.
No way; it'd be really out of character for Annie, who's always placed emphasis on actual, meaningful relationships and been grossed out by Jeff's casual encounters. It'd also be really out of character for Jeff specifically in regards to Annie, as Annie sexualizing herself to Jeff in any way tends to make him push back hard in an attempt to avoid taking advantage of her.
That said, I would be shocked if something hadn't happened there; either another song or a repeat of their encounter in Abed's timeline during "Chaos Theory". Harmon really loves inverting traditional "will they/won't they" relationships and sneaking crap in under the radar, so I'm automatically suspicious of any scene where it seems that there's more to it than meets the eye.
I'm still confused that at the end of Annie's boopie boop sex song (which is disturbingly true to a certain era's musical numbers) Jeff comes over to her side.
I mean, aside from the fact that Allison Brie is obviously hot, the song itself was incredibly disturbing/creepy.
It was disturbing as all hell, which is why it worked so well on so many levels. It was funny at face value, it was funny because it was Annie trying to be sexy but still goofing it up because she's Annie, it was funny because it was such a disturbingly accurate commentary on the sexualization of women in a lot of Christmas media. Just too great, and Jeff's horrified facial reactions made it.
The_Tuninator on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
People always want to debate Annie vs Britta, but what about the dudes, why does no one debate their hotness?
I guess because among Jeff vs Troy vs Abed, Troy is always going to win. Always.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
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Element BrianPeanut Butter ShillRegistered Userregular
The more you think about it...it almost makes sense that Annie had sex with Jeff, for a couple reasons.
1. We know Jeff wouldn't be easily turned, since he hates Glee more than anyone, and by the end of her bit ("are you doing a bit"), he still isn't turned.
2. Boop de boop de doop doop SEX
3. Just as Jeff is the Protaganist here, in the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, the Protaganist usually gets turned, but you never see him get turned and it isn't revealed until its too late. Just like when Britta finds Jeff in the hall, at that point we knew Annie tried, but it didn't seem to have worked..so she must have had done something else..
Again, if they had sex, that'd be really OOC for both characters as we understand them at the moment. Annie the romantic has always expressed distaste for Jeff's practices of casual, relationship-free sex as "gross", and Jeff constantly pushes Annie away for fear of taking advantage of her.
That said, they've demonstrated that they're not averse to romantic encounters of a less extreme nature, so something very well could have happened. They could also whip up some offscreen justification for why they'd be comfortable randomly having sex a la Jeff and Britta's offscreen relationship in S2, which would also work.
The_Tuninator on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
There's no way I could believe that sex is something that could have happened off screen with those two. Not without some kind of reference to it, like Annie putting her shirt back on after. Think of how much lead in there was to the first time Jeff and Britta had sex, and how there was an after scene giving the audience plenty of clues that yes, they had sex.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
There's no way I could believe that sex is something that could have happened off screen with those two. Not without some kind of reference to it, like Annie putting her shirt back on after. Think of how much lead in there was to the first time Jeff and Britta had sex, and how there was an after scene giving the audience plenty of clues that yes, they had sex.
The Jeff/Britta scene was a bit different, though, as that wasn't actually trying to conceal the fact that they did it. A better comparison would be to S2, specifically Britta's remark about Jeff's underwear (which is, incidentally, one of the three parts of the awesome season-spanning Beetlejuice joke).
That said, I really do agree that there's no way they'd treat something of that significance so casually. Harmon knows how dedicated the Jeff/Annie community is, he loves the Jeff/Annie community, and I don't think he'd slap them in the face that overtly. While I expect the traditional "will they/won't they" to be subverted with these characters, I think it'll still be in a manner which attaches slightly more import to the events than we just saw, because Annie isn't the kind of character to engage in that lightly. Neither is Jeff specifically in regards to Annie, for that matter.
That being said, remember, being in the Glee Club is apparently like being on Ecstasy, and entails memory-loss afterwards. Nobody in the group was really in their right minds this episode, with the probable exception of Abed, who I don't think was actually under the Glee influence.
People always want to debate Annie vs Britta, but what about the dudes, why does no one debate their hotness?
I guess because among Jeff vs Troy vs Abed, Troy is always going to win. Always.
You're probably right. And it's even funnier because Troy is the least sexualized of those three. Hell, maybe even including Pierce. Troy had a couple of random scenes regarding women/dates in Season one and some flirty stuff with Britta, but not much else. Pierce had the escort (Sharon Lawrence's character) and that entire episode with the Chinese girl in season 2.
People always want to debate Annie vs Britta, but what about the dudes, why does no one debate their hotness?
I guess because among Jeff vs Troy vs Abed, Troy is always going to win. Always.
You're probably right. And it's even funnier because Troy is the least sexualized of those three. Hell, maybe even including Pierce. Troy had a couple of random scenes regarding women/dates in Season one and some flirty stuff with Britta, but not much else. Pierce had the escort (Sharon Lawrence's character) and that entire episode with the Chinese girl in season 2.
That being said, remember, being in the Glee Club is apparently like being on Ecstasy, and entails memory-loss afterwards. Nobody in the group was really in their right minds this episode, with the probable exception of Abed, who I don't think was actually under the Glee influence.
Oh haha, fair enough. Sorry for missing that, people have been debating that on the AV Club for a couple of days and I guess the debate transferred over in my mind.
And they weren't in their normal states of mind, most definitely, but nobody was actually acting out of character; portions of their personality were just accentuated or brought to the surface.
People always want to debate Annie vs Britta, but what about the dudes, why does no one debate their hotness?
I guess because among Jeff vs Troy vs Abed, Troy is always going to win. Always.
You're probably right. And it's even funnier because Troy is the least sexualized of those three. Hell, maybe even including Pierce. Troy had a couple of random scenes regarding women/dates in Season one and some flirty stuff with Britta, but not much else. Pierce had the escort (Sharon Lawrence's character) and that entire episode with the Chinese girl in season 2.
The more you think about it...it almost makes sense that Annie had sex with Jeff, for a couple reasons.
1. We know Jeff wouldn't be easily turned, since he hates Glee more than anyone, and by the end of her bit ("are you doing a bit"), he still isn't turned.
2. Boop de boop de doop doop SEX
3. Just as Jeff is the Protaganist here, in the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, the Protaganist usually gets turned, but you never see him get turned and it isn't revealed until its too late. Just like when Britta finds Jeff in the hall, at that point we knew Annie tried, but it didn't seem to have worked..so she must have had done something else..
4. That Grin on his face..they totally had sex.
Wow this is like the age-old debate over whether or not Hamlet ever slept with Ophelia.
I'm going to argue the same way I argue with regard to Hamlet and Ophelia: no fucking way.
Posts
She is the worst. Team Annie! let old wounds be freshly opened sir.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvx4jyMuBU1qb10wfo2_250.gif
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvx3mlfsSp1r34kcvo2_500.gif
i like this tumblr page,
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
Also, the last episode is actually good and bad at the same time, until someone watches it, then it collapses into one of the two positions.
how boring!
There, I said it. How controversial.
And the leotard didn't complement Britta, or many people for that matter. The episode where she wears the red dress, however, is fantastic
This is basically the core of your argument and why you are wrong. Community isn't about realism. Most shows aren't. Realism is often a dull affair that gets in the way of storytelling. Realism blows. If the characters in Community behaved realistically for even a second, this plot would never have happened. Hardly any of the show's stories would have happened, or could have happened. It's not a realistic show in any capacity.
What matters in fiction (because it is fiction and therefore by definition not real) is internal consistency, and Community has plenty of that, this episode included.
You've got a warped view of what's important to show in a story. You're upset with the episode's end because they don't really react to Mr. Rad's outburst, but they do. They react with bafflement and vague horror before he runs off. What happens to him after that? Irrelevant. He probably gets caught, since he confessed to murdering people in front of an entire crowd. Showing him get arrested isn't important. It isn't. It would break the flow. Showing the other characters react seriously to having dealt with a murderer also isn't necessary, because even though he killed people, Mr. Rad is hard to take seriously. Vague horror followed by relief (which is how they reacted in the episode) is a perfectly appropriate response, especially when you consider the rest of the show.
The music as also fine. Troy and Abed's rap was great, Shirley's song was great, Abed and Troy apealing to Pierce's baby-boomer self-centeredness was great. You say there was no conflict there, but that would be wrong. In Pierce's case, for instance, yeah, he was open to flattery. Which is why they appeal to that through song. Just telling him that hey, baby-boomers are great! wouldn't have won him over. The song was an essential part of his recruitment. The only case where your whole "there was no conflict!" thing even remotely applies is Annie's song to Jeff, because he's not won over at the end of it, or at least not because of Annie's increasingly creepy performance. He is, however, in a significantly more vulnerable position, and it's no stretch at all to assume that they would be able to convert him off-screen.
"Show, don't tell" is important, but "show" doesn't refer to literally just showing you exactly how something went down instead of telling you with words, it refers to the whole act of giving the audience enough information to draw their own conclusions as well.
And you don't seem to grasp that. And, again, you make the mistake of thinking that realism is in any way important, when internal consistency is the main thing.
edit: Whoops, people have moved on. Didn't mean to have this thing drag on further.
I feel like you should get some award for this. Consider yourself awarded.
This isn't a "worship Community" thread, it is a "discuss and debate Community" thread. I would say that, yeah, if two people want to debate something you have two choices: engage them, or suffer through the debate. Or both, I guess.
I'm no mod, but that's just how it is. It's not "threadshitting" to debate Community in a Community thread in Debate & Discourse.
"Yeah, my favorite Christmas tradition is trimming the Hellraiser."
God, I'm going to miss this show.
I liked that line a lot.
http://www.nbc.com/community/video/merry-chang-mas/1372643
Also, does the cast ACTUALLY hate Chevy? I can never figure out if its a gag or legit.
http://youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FNDnv0j_xvE
Edit...redux: And I found this, which I figure you might enjoy:
http://www.nbc.com/community/video/the-darker-side-of-community/1348853/?__cid=thefilter
I don't think they hate him, but he is a notorious pain in the ass to work with. Like a lot of jokes on this show there is some truth to it, but also a big heap of exaggeration. The purest meta-gag they have going is about how Yvette (who doesn't drink) is a raging alcoholic (this is on the S1 DVD commentaries if you haven't heard it) and it bled into the show in the bar episode in S2.
I mean, aside from the fact that Allison Brie is obviously hot, the song itself was incredibly disturbing/creepy.
I doubt jeff would run straight to britta after finally banging Annie.
Unless... he wanted a threesome
:shock:
He didn't; he was just standing there in the hall when Britta found him, with a stupid grin on his face. It all makes sense!
The Troy/Abed rap was easily my favorite.
I also have to think that this easily goes into my top 5 community episodes.
Hooray!
details details :P
No way; it'd be really out of character for Annie, who's always placed emphasis on actual, meaningful relationships and been grossed out by Jeff's casual encounters. It'd also be really out of character for Jeff specifically in regards to Annie, as Annie sexualizing herself to Jeff in any way tends to make him push back hard in an attempt to avoid taking advantage of her.
That said, I would be shocked if something hadn't happened there; either another song or a repeat of their encounter in Abed's timeline during "Chaos Theory". Harmon really loves inverting traditional "will they/won't they" relationships and sneaking crap in under the radar, so I'm automatically suspicious of any scene where it seems that there's more to it than meets the eye.
It was disturbing as all hell, which is why it worked so well on so many levels. It was funny at face value, it was funny because it was Annie trying to be sexy but still goofing it up because she's Annie, it was funny because it was such a disturbingly accurate commentary on the sexualization of women in a lot of Christmas media. Just too great, and Jeff's horrified facial reactions made it.
I guess because among Jeff vs Troy vs Abed, Troy is always going to win. Always.
1. We know Jeff wouldn't be easily turned, since he hates Glee more than anyone, and by the end of her bit ("are you doing a bit"), he still isn't turned.
2. Boop de boop de doop doop SEX
3. Just as Jeff is the Protaganist here, in the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, the Protaganist usually gets turned, but you never see him get turned and it isn't revealed until its too late. Just like when Britta finds Jeff in the hall, at that point we knew Annie tried, but it didn't seem to have worked..so she must have had done something else..
4. That Grin on his face..they totally had sex.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
That said, they've demonstrated that they're not averse to romantic encounters of a less extreme nature, so something very well could have happened. They could also whip up some offscreen justification for why they'd be comfortable randomly having sex a la Jeff and Britta's offscreen relationship in S2, which would also work.
The Jeff/Britta scene was a bit different, though, as that wasn't actually trying to conceal the fact that they did it. A better comparison would be to S2, specifically Britta's remark about Jeff's underwear (which is, incidentally, one of the three parts of the awesome season-spanning Beetlejuice joke).
That said, I really do agree that there's no way they'd treat something of that significance so casually. Harmon knows how dedicated the Jeff/Annie community is, he loves the Jeff/Annie community, and I don't think he'd slap them in the face that overtly. While I expect the traditional "will they/won't they" to be subverted with these characters, I think it'll still be in a manner which attaches slightly more import to the events than we just saw, because Annie isn't the kind of character to engage in that lightly. Neither is Jeff specifically in regards to Annie, for that matter.
That being said, remember, being in the Glee Club is apparently like being on Ecstasy, and entails memory-loss afterwards. Nobody in the group was really in their right minds this episode, with the probable exception of Abed, who I don't think was actually under the Glee influence.
You're probably right. And it's even funnier because Troy is the least sexualized of those three. Hell, maybe even including Pierce. Troy had a couple of random scenes regarding women/dates in Season one and some flirty stuff with Britta, but not much else. Pierce had the escort (Sharon Lawrence's character) and that entire episode with the Chinese girl in season 2.
What, no love for the Dean?
And they weren't in their normal states of mind, most definitely, but nobody was actually acting out of character; portions of their personality were just accentuated or brought to the surface.
Troy did have Sexy Dracula, which was great.
Wow this is like the age-old debate over whether or not Hamlet ever slept with Ophelia.
I'm going to argue the same way I argue with regard to Hamlet and Ophelia: no fucking way.
And yes I just compared Community to Shakespeare.