What is the argument here, exactly? Which form to use? They both seem to be working so who gives a shit?
The argument is whether you should use Soresu when leveling as an Immortal specced Juggernaut, to which he's hit me with all kinds of shit about a DPS specced Jedi Guardian which I couldn't care less about...but hey, it's the internet, people just want to argue and feel right.
lol ?
Are you serious ? There was no argument, i just pointed that Shii form isnt simply 3% damage and that many of the benefits aren't soresu/immortal specific. Don't even know why you got all fired up :?
Moving on...
Anyone knows the amount of absorption we get from that Tank tree late talent ?
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I'm not fired up. I just found it kind of funny that someone that doesn't play as Immortal/Defense spec would feel the need to comment when someone points out that Soresu is probably the better form to use if you are specced in the tank tree.
You don't see me telling Vengeance Juggs which form to use, because I know nothing about how Vengeance plays. I do know how Immortal plays though, and through direct experience, I can tell you that playing an Immortal Jugg and not using Soresu creates a distinctly sub-optimal play experience.
I'm a pretty high level Immortal and for what it's worth Soresu is waaaaaaaay better, especially once you get the rage-related talents. Plus Retaliation, which is cheap damage on top of the mitigation from the talent it offers. Win!
My apologies, i though your initial comment about Shii form was directed to me. I have played as a defense spec and as a dps spec and i found personally that a hybrid of the two gets me the best of the two worlds. I change stances as i need and don't stick to either. Of course you should play what you feel more comfortable with.
I do agree that playing an immortal jugg with soresu is a sub optimal experience, that is exactly why i play a hybrid 18/23/0 with soresu and shii. Keep in mind that the SW gets its healer far earlier ( outside the ship bot ofc ) so playing as a JK your experience will differ.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
Playing Immortal + Soresu isn't really sub-optimal, that's not what I said. I said playing Immortal WITHOUT USING Soresu is sub-optimal.
I'll concede I likely do a lot less damage than a hybrid Immortal/Veng spec would, but I am near impossible to kill with my healer pet (which we get at ~20...didn't know JK got theirs so much later).
typo, i meant to write immortal jugg without soresu.
keep in mind that I'm just as impossible to kill since i can net the major immortal tree talents with such hybrid and in questing the healer covers the loss of the soresu bonus speeding up the killing quite a bit. Taking in account how late the healer arrives i find the hybrid build even more favorable since with full tank spec i can't win easily by attrition. The downtime gets far worse.
The lvl 33 class boss is a pain. You have no healer and he does force powers that hit for 2k. You have to dps him down really quick or else you run out of interrupts and get 3 shotted. I did try a tank build on him, i could stunlock him pretty hard, but i was a bit under leveled at the time and would die just before at the end.
I was also very disappointed with the talented force choke because it reduces the duration of the CC. In tank spec while questing most of the damage comes from my companion, thus with a shorter CC i was getting penalized.
EDIT: I just checked and force choke is the same time without the talent, meh, don't know why it feels slower. The talent description can be a bit misleading too i guess it is referring to the damage and not the cc itself.
in addition to stuns you can get barriers in immortal form that you need to time to keep one up at all times between blade barrier from retalation and the sonic barrier from force scream it absorbs a lot of elemental dmg which is a godsend
i find bringing the healer along is too slow however i prefer a good dps companion, if i absolutely have a tougher than poo fight that pops up, ill break him out, but god damn it takes forever
in fact i only needed to do it once
tattooine bug that you dont have to fight, but fuck it im sith right... oww oww damn AOE didnt notice you
I need to gear up my ship droid before using him. I tried soloing some of Heroic quests on Balmorra, and he's is just not up to the task without any parts.
I know that Cybertech can make droid parts but i'm not sure if you get that many recipes in time to gear the ship droid. Every class should get their healer at the same time, especially taking in account how the game hardens after 25+, that or a fully geared up ship droid from the start.
There is also the fact that you get companion restricted in some class quests. You then find yourself with a companion not only with a role that doesn't match your own but under geared as well.
For Jks
You have to do the final fight with T7
As a side note in Balmorra Republic you can find a companion customization vendor with loads of new skins. At least T7 and Kira for JK and a ton more for other classes.
The lvl 33 class boss is a pain. You have no healer and he does force powers that hit for 2k. You have to dps him down really quick or else you run out of interrupts and get 3 shotted. I did try a tank build on him, i could stunlock him pretty hard, but i was a bit under leveled at the time and would die just before at the end.
That the guy at the end of act 1?
I forget sometimes what I did at what level for class quest. I'm 42 now, I haven't had any issues with class quest fights. I'm as tanked as I can possibly be while leveling.
This is pretty much what I'm going for right now http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101crGbuMrkzMZhGM0M.1 ... not hitting the top of the tree in immortal, because the points into vengeance for unstoppable seem better for now.
New MMO though, so nothing is end all of specs for anything. I just know that leveling as a tank has been fucking easy, I used my healer companion for about 5 minutes until swapping back to Vette and later swapped to Jaesa.
The boss at the end of act one for JKs is far harder then the one for SWs :P. JK boss difficulty is one of the major complaints in the class official forums.
Leveling as a Guardian without a healer has been far from easy. The downtime is tremendous and some bosses are almost cooldown dependent. I don't die, i just have to rest far more then i like.
The boss at the end of act one for JKs is far harder then the one for SWs :P. JK boss difficulty is one of the major complaints in the official forums.
Leveling as a Guardian without a healer has been far from easy. The downtime is tremendous and some bosses are always cooldown dependent. I don't die, i just have to rest far more often then i should be.
Ya I dunno how you are doing it then, because using a healer was really slow as my damage is indeed lower as a tank. Having a DPS companion is much better.
Stunlocking is near endless now too, mix them with defensive cooldowns... some elites do absolutely zero damage to me because they always want to cast force lightning or something which I can interrupt.
I only rest after a fight with multiple strong ranked enemies. Elites in solo areas only come one at a time so they never give me trouble when compared to multiple strong mobs.
My build isn't far form yours. I simply dps with a dps companion was well. Playing a full immortal/Defense especially without a healer just gets me killed faster.
Keep in mind that i only get my healer at 34+. You get him as a guest a few hours into chapter two.
Most if not all groups have at least one or two strongs now. Those can be easily dpsed down but leave a dent.
Some class quest areas are almost a rest per 1~2 groups due to the strong/elite abundance.
Normal mobs i can clean a few groups without any problem with my dps companion. Most skills one shot them anyway.
Yeah, i have been soloing lower level FPs just for fun. Seeing all those blaster shots get reflect back like in the movies :P
It also helps a lot at lower levels since its easy to out level content but when i got to 34 and there was no more quests to do, i was forced to face same level elites/strongs and the difference was noticeable.
Of course you can always PvP/Space or do FPs to get that level difference back.
its not surprising but most people wouldn't want to see this (aprox lvl 47)
ok first i thought i would love quinn so hard id consider a bromance, because healer + immortal speced and live forever right?
which is true but it is also the slowest way of killing things EVER... I used him for a level against the insectoid queen thingy on tatooine and then put him back on the shelf, his toadying personality, his blind love of the empire made me think, if i get betrayed it will be this guy.... its just so bioware.
skip ahead 20 lvls im comfortable with my class, I know i want to be the biggest turtle on the face of the earth while my dps partner burns things down
I'm warned i will be betrayed, and 15 minutes later I am.
i think to my own sith self, I've wanted to smack this bitch up for awhile, but he goes on, and on.. and on some more about his calculations about how i have 0% chance of winning against him and his droids... and i worry a little bit, I don't like heavy battle droids in general, i think i just like killing mans more...
he uses a device to knock out my pet assassin and think, damn he shouldnt be able to do that, she is a lvl 47 sith and while she isnt a PC, she is well equipt.
fight begins, I check my enemies and think umm 1 strong <quinn> and two down arrow droids... really? as i back peddle to get enough space to force jump a droid i figure ill pop my 40% immunity and see if i cant get one down quick.. as i land i notice jaesa is back up and whaling away on a droid, the droid i hit goes down from kick and quinn is handily dropped there after (20 maybe 25 seconds?)
ok im pissed he not only sucks, but has the worst ambush of all time, he under estimated me, he is no master of calculation, he is an inept whiny annoying throw away character, and I wish to feast on the dark points I will get for turning him into a corpsicle (i thought for sure i could throw him out an airlock, use the force to throw him around and go motti on him) nope, all is forgiven and he is back on the ship.
seriously a WTF moment for me, as up until now ive found the stories ranging from fantastic at best to plausible at worst and truely broke my suspension of disbelief
As a Shadow, which defensive stat am I supposed to be stacking defense or absorption? Because it seems like the shielding one is the one they want me to go with, but defense seems like the clearly better stat since it doesn't rely on a proc. But then we do get a lot of shield proc chance increases.
I think a defense is a full resist of damage, i.e. when I use saber ward, I have 100% melee/ranged defense for 2 seconds, and I take no damage from them for that 2 seconds.
Invisible, in terms of secondary stats, you will want defense, shield, and absorption. Defense raises your chance to defend obviously, shield increases your chance to shield, and absorption increases the amount of damage you shield when you do shield.
On end game gear, at least for a synthweaver such as myself, I think it can have either all of it (str/end/def/shield/absorb), or at least all of it except the absorb. I'm not sure about the last one.
I'm curious how they could even begin to come to any meaningful conclusion with no combat log. I can only imagine what pains they're going through, testing via crazy means like dueling each other and guesstimating, haha!
I don't think it would be too hard to mathematically model it in a spread sheet or build a simple simulator, even without a combat log.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
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ComradebotLord of DinosaursHouston, TXRegistered Userregular
Freaking love my Vanguard. Sure, I'm only 21 now (I keep rolling alts for kicks, and waste waaaay too much time just standing around crafting), but so far I've enjoyed it. The damage debuff from Pulse Cannon, throw down a Smoke Grenade, then pop the reactive shield when the smoke clears... with a healer, there really isn't much in my level range that can kill me. Even without a healer I can hold off a sizeable amount of Elite mobs in my range for a respactably long time before I start popping Medpacs or finding a corner to duck around while someone else finishes off the badguys.
Oh, and electro-Stockstrike. Who hasn't ever thought "You know what would make guns cooler? If they electrocuted people when you smacked em' with it."
Thanks. At level 32, most mods and items I find either have defense or absorption increase. So when given a choice I've gone with defense, which increases melee parry and range deflect chance.
I'm not terribly worried about being suboptimal at the moment, but don't like wasting crafting material when making mods.
Yeah, defense rating is going to trump shield or absorb because defense is basically parry. When you 'defend,' it's either a full melee parry, or a full blaster bolt detection if the attack was ranged, and you take no damage, whereas shield is just a damage reduction.
I swear as a Jedi Guardian companion spoilers for the mid teens.
Kira is superior to T7 for damage and not getting screwed by pulling aggro. Kira can attack mobs I haven't even hit and with the guard ability they still attack me till she kills them, and her damage seems better than T7. Am I alone in thinking that? Or is that everyone elses experience between the two? It was readily apparent when I had to use t7 for a mission and I went from not having to recover between fights to doing it frequently.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Preacher, she is a better DPS companion. You'll notice if you expand her hotkey bar she has 2 different DPS stances(Armor pen/DoTs) but that's it. T7 is a decent DPSer too, but he's really meant to tank for those knights who aren't/can't tank for themselves.
I also see you mentioned getting screwed by T7 pulling agro. If you notice this happening, it may be because you have him in his tank stance(increased threat gen) instead of his damage stance. Also, you have to right click to turn off auto cast on his taunt ability or he'll use it every time it's available. Sometimes the stances/autocast stuff will jack itself up and reset your choices when you zone and stuff, so it's not a bad idea to check it once in a while.
Yeah I reduced his aggro moves once I got my tank stance, but even then Kira was just better (and sadly despite T-7's awesome astromech talk Kira's voice and personality are more fun to be around), even at not holding aggro and she hits harder/dots up more. She also tended to select targets better, could just be different areas or whatever. Oh well secret agent T-7 will continue to make my underworld runs and be a james bond of the stars.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Sometimes the stances/autocast stuff will jack itself up and reset your choices when you zone and stuff, so it's not a bad idea to check it once in a while.
Or in the case of Corso for Smugglers, every single time you ride a taxi or zone, so he's always using Harpoon shot, the moron!
Yeah, defense rating is going to trump shield or absorb because defense is basically parry. When you 'defend,' it's either a full melee parry, or a full blaster bolt detection if the attack was ranged, and you take no damage, whereas shield is just a damage reduction.
Counterpoint: Right now it looks like healers are ill equipped for spikes of damage (2 of the 3 healing ACs lose regen as their resources get lower), and you may be better off aiming for a more consistent profile of damage taken.
Yeah, defense rating is going to trump shield or absorb because defense is basically parry. When you 'defend,' it's either a full melee parry, or a full blaster bolt detection if the attack was ranged, and you take no damage, whereas shield is just a damage reduction.
Counterpoint: Right now it looks like healers are ill equipped for spikes of damage (2 of the 3 healing ACs lose regen as their resources get lower), and you may be better off aiming for a more consistent profile of damage taken.
For a Jedi Guardian, having a higher defense with riposte talented would give you a more consistent damage taken, then shield, because then you'd have the riposte buff up reducing incoming damage by a flat %.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
In the current environment, from what I've seen, Guardians/Juggernauts are the easiest of the tanks to heal, because of our really flat damage curve, but we are the hardest of the current tank classes to hold agro with. You really need to be changing targets and making sure you are hitting the various mobs with threat. Even after you get area taunt, the basics of target switching and keeping threat on everything are there.
Just means you have to be more active, I'm ok with that. Especially since the jumping attack seems to recharge faster than I think to use it. Though I'll admit I'm still fresh in the game as it were.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
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The argument is whether you should use Soresu when leveling as an Immortal specced Juggernaut, to which he's hit me with all kinds of shit about a DPS specced Jedi Guardian which I couldn't care less about...but hey, it's the internet, people just want to argue and feel right.
Are you serious ? There was no argument, i just pointed that Shii form isnt simply 3% damage and that many of the benefits aren't soresu/immortal specific. Don't even know why you got all fired up :?
Moving on...
Anyone knows the amount of absorption we get from that Tank tree late talent ?
You don't see me telling Vengeance Juggs which form to use, because I know nothing about how Vengeance plays. I do know how Immortal plays though, and through direct experience, I can tell you that playing an Immortal Jugg and not using Soresu creates a distinctly sub-optimal play experience.
I do agree that playing an immortal jugg with soresu is a sub optimal experience, that is exactly why i play a hybrid 18/23/0 with soresu and shii. Keep in mind that the SW gets its healer far earlier ( outside the ship bot ofc ) so playing as a JK your experience will differ.
I'll concede I likely do a lot less damage than a hybrid Immortal/Veng spec would, but I am near impossible to kill with my healer pet (which we get at ~20...didn't know JK got theirs so much later).
keep in mind that I'm just as impossible to kill since i can net the major immortal tree talents with such hybrid and in questing the healer covers the loss of the soresu bonus speeding up the killing quite a bit. Taking in account how late the healer arrives i find the hybrid build even more favorable since with full tank spec i can't win easily by attrition. The downtime gets far worse.
The lvl 33 class boss is a pain. You have no healer and he does force powers that hit for 2k. You have to dps him down really quick or else you run out of interrupts and get 3 shotted. I did try a tank build on him, i could stunlock him pretty hard, but i was a bit under leveled at the time and would die just before at the end.
I was also very disappointed with the talented force choke because it reduces the duration of the CC. In tank spec while questing most of the damage comes from my companion, thus with a shorter CC i was getting penalized.
EDIT: I just checked and force choke is the same time without the talent, meh, don't know why it feels slower. The talent description can be a bit misleading too i guess it is referring to the damage and not the cc itself.
in fact i only needed to do it once
I know that Cybertech can make droid parts but i'm not sure if you get that many recipes in time to gear the ship droid. Every class should get their healer at the same time, especially taking in account how the game hardens after 25+, that or a fully geared up ship droid from the start.
There is also the fact that you get companion restricted in some class quests. You then find yourself with a companion not only with a role that doesn't match your own but under geared as well.
For Jks
As a side note in Balmorra Republic you can find a companion customization vendor with loads of new skins. At least T7 and Kira for JK and a ton more for other classes.
That the guy at the end of act 1?
I forget sometimes what I did at what level for class quest. I'm 42 now, I haven't had any issues with class quest fights. I'm as tanked as I can possibly be while leveling.
This is pretty much what I'm going for right now http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101crGbuMrkzMZhGM0M.1 ... not hitting the top of the tree in immortal, because the points into vengeance for unstoppable seem better for now.
New MMO though, so nothing is end all of specs for anything. I just know that leveling as a tank has been fucking easy, I used my healer companion for about 5 minutes until swapping back to Vette and later swapped to Jaesa.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Leveling as a Guardian without a healer has been far from easy. The downtime is tremendous and some bosses are almost cooldown dependent. I don't die, i just have to rest far more then i like.
Ya I dunno how you are doing it then, because using a healer was really slow as my damage is indeed lower as a tank. Having a DPS companion is much better.
Stunlocking is near endless now too, mix them with defensive cooldowns... some elites do absolutely zero damage to me because they always want to cast force lightning or something which I can interrupt.
I only rest after a fight with multiple strong ranked enemies. Elites in solo areas only come one at a time so they never give me trouble when compared to multiple strong mobs.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Keep in mind that i only get my healer at 34+. You get him as a guest a few hours into chapter two.
Most if not all groups have at least one or two strongs now. Those can be easily dpsed down but leave a dent.
Some class quest areas are almost a rest per 1~2 groups due to the strong/elite abundance.
Normal mobs i can clean a few groups without any problem with my dps companion. Most skills one shot them anyway.
The overall pace isn't that fast.
I'm 38. Last night I tanked the Taris world boss (level 21) and the Coruscant one (level 18).
I was expecting it to be a piece of cake what with the level difference, but I dodged 99% of their attacks.
Then I went and soloed the Mandalorian Raiders FP (level 24-ish?). Same there.
It also helps a lot at lower levels since its easy to out level content but when i got to 34 and there was no more quests to do, i was forced to face same level elites/strongs and the difference was noticeable.
Of course you can always PvP/Space or do FPs to get that level difference back.
which is true but it is also the slowest way of killing things EVER... I used him for a level against the insectoid queen thingy on tatooine and then put him back on the shelf, his toadying personality, his blind love of the empire made me think, if i get betrayed it will be this guy.... its just so bioware.
skip ahead 20 lvls im comfortable with my class, I know i want to be the biggest turtle on the face of the earth while my dps partner burns things down
I'm warned i will be betrayed, and 15 minutes later I am.
i think to my own sith self, I've wanted to smack this bitch up for awhile, but he goes on, and on.. and on some more about his calculations about how i have 0% chance of winning against him and his droids... and i worry a little bit, I don't like heavy battle droids in general, i think i just like killing mans more...
he uses a device to knock out my pet assassin and think, damn he shouldnt be able to do that, she is a lvl 47 sith and while she isnt a PC, she is well equipt.
fight begins, I check my enemies and think umm 1 strong <quinn> and two down arrow droids... really? as i back peddle to get enough space to force jump a droid i figure ill pop my 40% immunity and see if i cant get one down quick.. as i land i notice jaesa is back up and whaling away on a droid, the droid i hit goes down from kick and quinn is handily dropped there after (20 maybe 25 seconds?)
ok im pissed he not only sucks, but has the worst ambush of all time, he under estimated me, he is no master of calculation, he is an inept whiny annoying throw away character, and I wish to feast on the dark points I will get for turning him into a corpsicle (i thought for sure i could throw him out an airlock, use the force to throw him around and go motti on him) nope, all is forgiven and he is back on the ship.
seriously a WTF moment for me, as up until now ive found the stories ranging from fantastic at best to plausible at worst and truely broke my suspension of disbelief
Invisible, in terms of secondary stats, you will want defense, shield, and absorption. Defense raises your chance to defend obviously, shield increases your chance to shield, and absorption increases the amount of damage you shield when you do shield.
On end game gear, at least for a synthweaver such as myself, I think it can have either all of it (str/end/def/shield/absorb), or at least all of it except the absorb. I'm not sure about the last one.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Oh, and electro-Stockstrike. Who hasn't ever thought "You know what would make guns cooler? If they electrocuted people when you smacked em' with it."
I'm not terribly worried about being suboptimal at the moment, but don't like wasting crafting material when making mods.
Kira is superior to T7 for damage and not getting screwed by pulling aggro. Kira can attack mobs I haven't even hit and with the guard ability they still attack me till she kills them, and her damage seems better than T7. Am I alone in thinking that? Or is that everyone elses experience between the two? It was readily apparent when I had to use t7 for a mission and I went from not having to recover between fights to doing it frequently.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I also see you mentioned getting screwed by T7 pulling agro. If you notice this happening, it may be because you have him in his tank stance(increased threat gen) instead of his damage stance. Also, you have to right click to turn off auto cast on his taunt ability or he'll use it every time it's available. Sometimes the stances/autocast stuff will jack itself up and reset your choices when you zone and stuff, so it's not a bad idea to check it once in a while.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Or in the case of Corso for Smugglers, every single time you ride a taxi or zone, so he's always using Harpoon shot, the moron!
For a Jedi Guardian, having a higher defense with riposte talented would give you a more consistent damage taken, then shield, because then you'd have the riposte buff up reducing incoming damage by a flat %.
pleasepaypreacher.net
pleasepaypreacher.net
i want to level up as dps, but switch to tanking if i have to