So, for all of you pro-Scientology, "Germans are being discriminatory" people: if the Mafia were to register as a religion, would you consider it discriminatory to keep them from filming on a military base?
Well of all these people who have a problem with Tommy boy not allowed to film on location, how many of you are German Citizens?
If your not oh well get over it its not your country.
Also most religions in the USA where brought here by other people. and those religions where not designed to be profit organizations. CoS on the other hand was started by a guy who stated it was about making money. So did Jesus and Moses and Muhammad go "yea i cant wait to get rich off this shit before I die." I dont think so.
That's impossible to say. Who knows how those religions were started. The modern versions of their religious texts sure aren't a reliable source. You're right at least that after all this time they're practitioned for non-profit reasons, and scientology definitely isn't.
You know, some others said it before, but from the not-really-a-retraction you can see what German officials are focusing on: the history element.
The German film industry, however, sees Cruise and production partner Paula Wagner's film as an important piece of historical nonfiction, with Studio Babelsberg heads Christoph Fisser and Carl Woebcken—who are in talks with UA to sign on as co-producers—calling Valkyrie one of the "too few examples of military opposition to Hitler's regime."
"The assassination attempt against Hitler is hardly known outside Germany," Fisser told the Hollywood Reporter. "We should therefore be delighted and welcome this wonderful opportunity to improve the image of our country."
An official mentioning scientology as a "cult" in Germany isn't really a big deal after all.
Æthelred on
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Doesn't look like they've approved it explicitly yet, more like refuting that one parliament member's statement that it would be denied outright. I'd imagine lobbying from the german film industry might have played a part in this somehow.
No such danger can be demonstrated for Tom Cruise on his movie set. Not even close.
Jesus people.
Maybe the Germans just don't like the idea of a crazy person playing a national hero.
And since they can't prevent the film from being made, they're going to take the route of non-cooperation with the production.
If they had denied him on that basis it would be 100% fine. They denied him on the basis of religion, and that is not fine.
No they didn't, they (initially) denied him on the basis of an organization he belongs to that is not a religion, in the eyes of Germany. Thus, there can't be any claim of discrimination based upon religion.
Thing is, the Germans are right. Scientology isn't a religion. It's a load of bullshit.
That comment made me laugh.
Regardless, the problem is, yes, Scientology is a religion, and it's just as bullshit filled as the rest of them, and I don't see any reason why it deserves any particular discrimination.
You've said this more than once in different threads, specifically commenting on how Scientology and Christianity are both bullshit, so one shouldn't be treated differently from the other.
I'm pretty sure most people on here are with you in your thought that religions should be treating equally. The problem isn't the beliefs, no matter how wacky they seem to most of us. The problem is that you have to PAY TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.
No other recognized/respected religion FORCES people to pay a specific amount of money to see the next set of religious teachings.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Thing is, the Germans are right. Scientology isn't a religion. It's a load of bullshit.
That comment made me laugh.
Regardless, the problem is, yes, Scientology is a religion, and it's just as bullshit filled as the rest of them, and I don't see any reason why it deserves any particular discrimination.
You've said this more than once in different threads, specifically commenting on how Scientology and Christianity are both bullshit, so one shouldn't be treated differently from the other.
I'm pretty sure most people on here are with you in your thought that religions should be treating equally. The problem isn't the beliefs, no matter how wacky they seem to most of us. The problem is that you have to PAY TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.
No other recognized/respected religion FORCES people to pay a specific amount of money to see the next set of religious teachings.
I don't quite see how this would even come to the point of mattering, since in the context of Germany scientology is not recognized as a religion, and cannot fall back upon institutional protections against discrimination of religion. Okay, it's recognized as a religion in the United States, but that doesn't mean Germany has to automatically follow suit in the same classification.
It's not about Germany's rights, it's about ethics. We all know they have the right to deny him admittance, should they so choose, but is it ethically and morally sound?
It's not about Germany's rights, it's about ethics. We all know they have the right to deny him admittance, should they so choose, but is it ethically and morally sound?
You've said this more than once in different threads, specifically commenting on how Scientology and Christianity are both bullshit, so one shouldn't be treated differently from the other.
I'm pretty sure most people on here are with you in your thought that religions should be treating equally. The problem isn't the beliefs, no matter how wacky they seem to most of us. The problem is that you have to PAY TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.
No other recognized/respected religion FORCES people to pay a specific amount of money to see the next set of religious teachings.
That strikes me as a particularly irrelevant difference. You're only being "forced" insofar as your relationship with the church goes. You might be stigmatized and threatened if you balk, but it's not like that hasn't happened in other religions, both throughout history and today.
You've said this more than once in different threads, specifically commenting on how Scientology and Christianity are both bullshit, so one shouldn't be treated differently from the other.
I'm pretty sure most people on here are with you in your thought that religions should be treating equally. The problem isn't the beliefs, no matter how wacky they seem to most of us. The problem is that you have to PAY TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.
No other recognized/respected religion FORCES people to pay a specific amount of money to see the next set of religious teachings.
That strikes me as a particularly irrelevant difference. You're only being "forced" insofar as your relationship with the church goes. You might be stigmatized and threatened if you balk, but it's not like that hasn't happened in other religions, both throughout history and today.
I have to agree with LM here. To suggest that the Church of Scientology, or whatever their official name is, is "forcing" people to pay to move through the religion is to suggest that they are somehow rounding people up and taxing them against their will. I'm fairly convinced that the Church of Scientology is brainwashing actors and actresses somehow, but are these people being "forced" to pay tithes to the church? No. These people are doing so of their own will. "Forced" is the wrong verb.
That said, I support Germany's right - legal, moral, and ethical - to bar those crazy fuckers from their country.
You've said this more than once in different threads, specifically commenting on how Scientology and Christianity are both bullshit, so one shouldn't be treated differently from the other.
I'm pretty sure most people on here are with you in your thought that religions should be treating equally. The problem isn't the beliefs, no matter how wacky they seem to most of us. The problem is that you have to PAY TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.
No other recognized/respected religion FORCES people to pay a specific amount of money to see the next set of religious teachings.
That strikes me as a particularly irrelevant difference. You're only being "forced" insofar as your relationship with the church goes. You might be stigmatized and threatened if you balk, but it's not like that hasn't happened in other religions, both throughout history and today.
I have to agree with LM here. To suggest that the Church of Scientology, or whatever their official name is, is "forcing" people to pay to move through the religion is to suggest that they are somehow rounding people up and taxing them against their will. I'm fairly convinced that the Church of Scientology is brainwashing actors and actresses somehow, but are these people being "forced" to pay tithes to the church? No. These people are doing so of their own will. "Forced" is the wrong verb.
That said, I support Germany's right - legal, moral, and ethical - to bar those crazy fuckers from their country.
"Forced" is only the wrong verb when you look at the treatment of celebrities.
What happens if you choose not to pay? Do they go 'meh' and leave you alone?
I imagine it would be about the same as what you get for not paying your tithe in a community where the church insists on it.
Incenjucar on
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
edited June 2007
I think they lock you in a room with no food or water for a week. Or that might only be for "attempting to see a psychiatrist without authorisation." Of course, it's the same punishme^H^H treatment as for "asking permission to see a psychiatrist"...
You've said this more than once in different threads, specifically commenting on how Scientology and Christianity are both bullshit, so one shouldn't be treated differently from the other.
I'm pretty sure most people on here are with you in your thought that religions should be treating equally. The problem isn't the beliefs, no matter how wacky they seem to most of us. The problem is that you have to PAY TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.
No other recognized/respected religion FORCES people to pay a specific amount of money to see the next set of religious teachings.
That strikes me as a particularly irrelevant difference. You're only being "forced" insofar as your relationship with the church goes. You might be stigmatized and threatened if you balk, but it's not like that hasn't happened in other religions, both throughout history and today.
I have to agree with LM here. To suggest that the Church of Scientology, or whatever their official name is, is "forcing" people to pay to move through the religion is to suggest that they are somehow rounding people up and taxing them against their will. I'm fairly convinced that the Church of Scientology is brainwashing actors and actresses somehow, but are these people being "forced" to pay tithes to the church? No. These people are doing so of their own will. "Forced" is the wrong verb.
That said, I support Germany's right - legal, moral, and ethical - to bar those crazy fuckers from their country.
"Forced" is only the wrong verb when you look at the treatment of celebrities.
Nobody is forced into Scientology. The way "forced" is being used here is to suggest that people have no other choice but to pay tithes to the Church of Scientology. If they choose to join the ranks of Scientology and are then forced to pay tithes to stay in it, then it still isn't "forced" in the same way people are using the word. Because unless the Church of Scientology is holding people at gunpoint and telling them to join or else, nobody's forced to join and by extension nobody is forced to pay their way upward through the church.
You've said this more than once in different threads, specifically commenting on how Scientology and Christianity are both bullshit, so one shouldn't be treated differently from the other.
I'm pretty sure most people on here are with you in your thought that religions should be treating equally. The problem isn't the beliefs, no matter how wacky they seem to most of us. The problem is that you have to PAY TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.
No other recognized/respected religion FORCES people to pay a specific amount of money to see the next set of religious teachings.
That strikes me as a particularly irrelevant difference. You're only being "forced" insofar as your relationship with the church goes. You might be stigmatized and threatened if you balk, but it's not like that hasn't happened in other religions, both throughout history and today.
I have to agree with LM here. To suggest that the Church of Scientology, or whatever their official name is, is "forcing" people to pay to move through the religion is to suggest that they are somehow rounding people up and taxing them against their will. I'm fairly convinced that the Church of Scientology is brainwashing actors and actresses somehow, but are these people being "forced" to pay tithes to the church? No. These people are doing so of their own will. "Forced" is the wrong verb.
That said, I support Germany's right - legal, moral, and ethical - to bar those crazy fuckers from their country.
"Forced" is only the wrong verb when you look at the treatment of celebrities.
Nobody is forced into Scientology. The way "forced" is being used here is to suggest that people have no other choice but to pay tithes to the Church of Scientology. If they choose to join the ranks of Scientology and are then forced to pay tithes to stay in it, then it still isn't "forced" in the same way people are using the word. Because unless the Church of Scientology is holding people at gunpoint and telling them to join or else, nobody's forced to join and by extension nobody is forced to pay their way upward through the church.
Just because people aren't being held at gunpoint does not mean there isn't any kind of coercion or deception going on. They have shady ways of sucking vulnerable people in, and go to great lengths to make the lives of runaways a living hell.
Nobody is forced into Scientology. The way "forced" is being used here is to suggest that people have no other choice but to pay tithes to the Church of Scientology. If they choose to join the ranks of Scientology and are then forced to pay tithes to stay in it, then it still isn't "forced" in the same way people are using the word. Because unless the Church of Scientology is holding people at gunpoint and telling them to join or else, nobody's forced to join and by extension nobody is forced to pay their way upward through the church.
Putting a gun to your head isn't forcing you to do something either, really. You still have the option to get shot.
Nobody is forced into Scientology. The way "forced" is being used here is to suggest that people have no other choice but to pay tithes to the Church of Scientology. If they choose to join the ranks of Scientology and are then forced to pay tithes to stay in it, then it still isn't "forced" in the same way people are using the word. Because unless the Church of Scientology is holding people at gunpoint and telling them to join or else, nobody's forced to join and by extension nobody is forced to pay their way upward through the church.
Putting a gun to your head isn't forcing you to do something either, really. You still have the option to get shot.
Well according ot former members they do keep records of your "sessions" with them and have been known to use very private information against people who leave.
Well according ot former members they do keep records of your "sessions" with them and have been known to use very private information against people who leave.
Well according ot former members they do keep records of your "sessions" with them and have been known to use very private information against people who leave.
This is neither unique nor remarkable in any way.
Does the Catholic Church publish your confessions if you stop going to church now?
Well according ot former members they do keep records of your "sessions" with them and have been known to use very private information against people who leave.
This is neither unique nor remarkable in any way.
Does the Catholic Church publish your confessions if you stop going to church now?
As noted: Scientology is that Old Time Religion.
That said: I wouldn't be surprised if some groups do this, I'm just not really that connected with any modern church groups, so I can't vouch for any group at this exact moment.
Well according ot former members they do keep records of your "sessions" with them and have been known to use very private information against people who leave.
This is neither unique nor remarkable in any way.
Does the Catholic Church publish your confessions if you stop going to church now?
As noted: Scientology is that Old Time Religion.
That said: I wouldn't be surprised if some groups do this, I'm just not really that connected with any modern church groups, so I can't vouch for any group at this exact moment.
Again with many other things they all happen in all religions to a degree. What makes Scientology different is these things are basically their official policies.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
You might be stigmatized and threatened if you balk, but it's not like that hasn't happened in other religions, both throughout history and today.
I mean, let's not get into the treatment for apostates in other religions.
Bad is not the same as worse.
As of yet, no Christian groups have targetted Dawkins with a mix of barely legal and downright illegal operations in an attempt to shut him up and ruin his life.
I'm no cheerleader for religion, but honestly guys, they're not all the same, and the fact that scientology blends it's mob-syndicate activities with some bad science fiction on the side doesn't make it worthy of first-amendment protection.
Again with many other things they all happen in all religions to a degree. What makes Scientology different is these things are basically their official policies.
Which is why they need to be removed from the species before they start ripping hearts out of people.
I'm no cheerleader for religion, but honestly guys, they're not all the same, and the fact that scientology blends it's mob-syndicate activities with some bad science fiction on the side doesn't make it worthy of first-amendment protection.
I don't disagree- you're correct, they aren't all the same. But Scientology isn't super special as far as depraved policy towards critics and apostates goes. It's worse than many in the world today, and it has a rather unique history, but it's not super-special, and hardly has a monopoly on craziness and paranoia.
If they had cited Tom Cruise as a documented law-breaker that would be different. They didn't, probably because he hasn't broken any laws. His being a member of an organization that has broken laws doesn't mean shit unless by that association you can reasonably assert he would attempt to commit an offense (like say, being a member of Al-Queda might imply). Without that, it is simple discrimination by religion.
So you do admit that if people believe X is a dangerous criminal organization, and are discriminating on that account, they're not discriminating based on religion?
Because you seem to blindly assume the latter, not the former.
People have already shown why Germany might believe CoS to be a criminal organization that needs to be discriminated against. You haven't show any reason for Germany to discriminate against CoS for their beliefs.
And remember... even if Germany is wrong about their alleged criminal activities... they're still discriminating based on criminal activities. Maybe it's wrong to discriminate against all neo-Nazis, but that's got nothing to do with religion either.
You've said this more than once in different threads, specifically commenting on how Scientology and Christianity are both bullshit, so one shouldn't be treated differently from the other.
I'm pretty sure most people on here are with you in your thought that religions should be treating equally. The problem isn't the beliefs, no matter how wacky they seem to most of us. The problem is that you have to PAY TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.
No other recognized/respected religion FORCES people to pay a specific amount of money to see the next set of religious teachings.
That strikes me as a particularly irrelevant difference. You're only being "forced" insofar as your relationship with the church goes. You might be stigmatized and threatened if you balk, but it's not like that hasn't happened in other religions, both throughout history and today.
It's irrelevant if you just want to say "it's a religion, just like X" and win some atheist points. It's not irrelevant if you want to make some actually useful legal distinctions in order to protect people from being fucked over.
There's plenty of differences between christianity and scientology, for example. If we can pinpoint the more dangerous differences and make 'em illegal, we've already fixed "half" the problem with religion. Sure we still got Jehova's witnesses banging on our doors, but at least they're harmless.
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That's impossible to say. Who knows how those religions were started. The modern versions of their religious texts sure aren't a reliable source. You're right at least that after all this time they're practitioned for non-profit reasons, and scientology definitely isn't.
http://www.eonline.com/news/article/index.jsp?uuid=6e0f1f50-130c-41c6-be4e-807063f57dda
An official mentioning scientology as a "cult" in Germany isn't really a big deal after all.
Doesn't look like they've approved it explicitly yet, more like refuting that one parliament member's statement that it would be denied outright. I'd imagine lobbying from the german film industry might have played a part in this somehow.
No they didn't, they (initially) denied him on the basis of an organization he belongs to that is not a religion, in the eyes of Germany. Thus, there can't be any claim of discrimination based upon religion.
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I'm pretty sure most people on here are with you in your thought that religions should be treating equally. The problem isn't the beliefs, no matter how wacky they seem to most of us. The problem is that you have to PAY TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.
No other recognized/respected religion FORCES people to pay a specific amount of money to see the next set of religious teachings.
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I don't quite see how this would even come to the point of mattering, since in the context of Germany scientology is not recognized as a religion, and cannot fall back upon institutional protections against discrimination of religion. Okay, it's recognized as a religion in the United States, but that doesn't mean Germany has to automatically follow suit in the same classification.
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I mean, yeah, it is, but some disagree.
MORAL RELATIVISM ALERT.
Batten down the hatches!
That strikes me as a particularly irrelevant difference. You're only being "forced" insofar as your relationship with the church goes. You might be stigmatized and threatened if you balk, but it's not like that hasn't happened in other religions, both throughout history and today.
I have to agree with LM here. To suggest that the Church of Scientology, or whatever their official name is, is "forcing" people to pay to move through the religion is to suggest that they are somehow rounding people up and taxing them against their will. I'm fairly convinced that the Church of Scientology is brainwashing actors and actresses somehow, but are these people being "forced" to pay tithes to the church? No. These people are doing so of their own will. "Forced" is the wrong verb.
That said, I support Germany's right - legal, moral, and ethical - to bar those crazy fuckers from their country.
"Forced" is only the wrong verb when you look at the treatment of celebrities.
I imagine it would be about the same as what you get for not paying your tithe in a community where the church insists on it.
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Nobody is forced into Scientology. The way "forced" is being used here is to suggest that people have no other choice but to pay tithes to the Church of Scientology. If they choose to join the ranks of Scientology and are then forced to pay tithes to stay in it, then it still isn't "forced" in the same way people are using the word. Because unless the Church of Scientology is holding people at gunpoint and telling them to join or else, nobody's forced to join and by extension nobody is forced to pay their way upward through the church.
Putting a gun to your head isn't forcing you to do something either, really. You still have the option to get shot.
I'll concede that.
I mean, let's not get into the treatment for apostates in other religions.
This is neither unique nor remarkable in any way.
Does the Catholic Church publish your confessions if you stop going to church now?
As noted: Scientology is that Old Time Religion.
That said: I wouldn't be surprised if some groups do this, I'm just not really that connected with any modern church groups, so I can't vouch for any group at this exact moment.
Again with many other things they all happen in all religions to a degree. What makes Scientology different is these things are basically their official policies.
Bad is not the same as worse.
As of yet, no Christian groups have targetted Dawkins with a mix of barely legal and downright illegal operations in an attempt to shut him up and ruin his life.
I'm no cheerleader for religion, but honestly guys, they're not all the same, and the fact that scientology blends it's mob-syndicate activities with some bad science fiction on the side doesn't make it worthy of first-amendment protection.
Which is why they need to be removed from the species before they start ripping hearts out of people.
I don't disagree- you're correct, they aren't all the same. But Scientology isn't super special as far as depraved policy towards critics and apostates goes. It's worse than many in the world today, and it has a rather unique history, but it's not super-special, and hardly has a monopoly on craziness and paranoia.
So you do admit that if people believe X is a dangerous criminal organization, and are discriminating on that account, they're not discriminating based on religion?
Because you seem to blindly assume the latter, not the former.
People have already shown why Germany might believe CoS to be a criminal organization that needs to be discriminated against. You haven't show any reason for Germany to discriminate against CoS for their beliefs.
And remember... even if Germany is wrong about their alleged criminal activities... they're still discriminating based on criminal activities. Maybe it's wrong to discriminate against all neo-Nazis, but that's got nothing to do with religion either.
It's irrelevant if you just want to say "it's a religion, just like X" and win some atheist points. It's not irrelevant if you want to make some actually useful legal distinctions in order to protect people from being fucked over.
There's plenty of differences between christianity and scientology, for example. If we can pinpoint the more dangerous differences and make 'em illegal, we've already fixed "half" the problem with religion. Sure we still got Jehova's witnesses banging on our doors, but at least they're harmless.
Oh, I know this one... Two wrongs don't make a right.