The_SpaniardIt's never lupinesIrvine, CaliforniaRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
I have to do a minor resurrection of this thread over a few gems I heard on the radio tonight.
I was driving home and I have this podcast that I listen to. It's a live podcast so they have callers and everything. Now I'm a couple months behind because they do 6 shows a week and I hardly have a chance to listen. Anyway I just got to the major news day when this whole incident happened, and JESUS some of these callers were so flat out insane I just had to post them so that I could feel the cooling relief of you guys (IE sanity) tearing them apart like wet tissue.
Caller 1:
Oh if that were my daughter I would have hit her harder. What the fuck is all this about talking to your kinds, I don't negotiate with children!
Caller 2:
Well how do you know that she didn't end up the way she is now BECAUSE of the beatings? It's called discipline and they might be the reason she's a responsible person today.
Caller 3: I think he did the right thing. I mean all this talk about spankings with bare hands, I thought you weren't supposed to hit a kid with your bare hands. I thought you were supposed to use belts and whips and such, I mean why do you think it's called a "whipping"? My parents never laid a finger on me, they always used a belt, and I turned out just fine!
Caller 4: Well I don't think people without kids should be allowed to have an opinion on this video.
I think it's obvious from the history of this thread that even people who support cp as a punishment strategy would absolutely say that was abuse of the highest fuckitude, so people who say they'd hit harder or claim that the child is well behaved from abuse is probably super stupid.
And yes, please spare me then "any spanking is abuse" and "well anything that psychologically stresses a child is technically abuse then too" mirror argument.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
You can spare yourself the truth if you need to. But scientific evidence and simple reason btoh indicate that spanking and abuse are the same thing. They differ only in degree, not in kind. They lead to the same damage, again, just to different degrees. "Spanking" is just a euphemism for light to moderate physical abuse.
Hay guyz it's like u know if like u scream at ur kid, u knew, its just as bad as slapping them across the face. No seriously, I just don't want a 40 page breakdown of that again.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I've been thinking a lot lately about violence as a conditioned response to the environment to get what you want. Right now I'm starting to feel convinced that people in general who support violent methods of punishment are the type that are too intellectually or emotionally insecure to understand how to achieve the same results they want without the violence. Being ethical is extremely hard when it comes to children, especially younger ones. I'm guessing these are the same sorts of people who would break out into a fist fight if you said something they didn't like. They don't know how to handle the world except through violence after a certain point.
But what I'm guessing is probably what really turns CP into abuse is in general the mental association created when a child cannot understand the situation and mis-attributes the violent act to something unintended. So instead of "learning" what the parent wants, they "learn" something else that ends up developing into one form of mental/emotional impairment or another. Since violence is a very powerful but very negative motivator that means that it would be extremely poorly suited to being used as a tool to actually teach anyone anything, especially children.[/thread]
If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"
Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
More so than anything, children learn to do what you do. If you hit, regardless of why, you are first and foremost teaching to hit. As the child grows older and more perceptive, the lesson evolves into "hit, but only smaller, defenseless creatures" or "hit, but only those you love." Sure at some point they can rationalize all those other lessons you were trying to teach with the hittings, but 80% of what you taught is what you did.
That's the real thing about raising kids that is so difficult. The primary method to raise a good kid is to be a good person. Everyone wants their children to be better than they themselves are/were. But you can't beat that into them, or even time-out that into them. You have to be better than you are if you want your kids to be better than you are. Being better is hard. You have to quit being selfish and dishonest with your fellow humans if you want your kids to do the same. You have to quit responding to stress with anger if you want your kids to quit throwing tantrums. You have to quit watching TV and do something productive if you want your kids to be good about doing their homework. Before your kids are even one year old, all they want to do is imitate you and be just like you.
That's most of it. Sure, there's still some amount of making sure they eat healthy instead of eating candy for breakfast, and some contrived reward and punishment system that needs to be in place in order to teach them about stuff they are too young to experience first-hand. But that is not the biggest part.
If you're doing it right, the worst punishment you ever need to dole out is something like only reading them one book before bed tonight instead of two. Even shouting and timeouts are rarely needed, if ever. Again, IF you're doing it right.
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sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
More so than anything, children learn to do what you do. If you hit, regardless of why, you are first and foremost teaching to hit. As the child grows older and more perceptive, the lesson evolves into "hit, but only smaller, defenseless creatures" or "hit, but only those you love." Sure at some point they can rationalize all those other lessons you were trying to teach with the hittings, but 80% of what you taught is what you did.
That's the real thing about raising kids that is so difficult. The primary method to raise a good kid is to be a good person. Everyone wants their children to be better than they themselves are/were. But you can't beat that into them, or even time-out that into them. You have to be better than you are if you want your kids to be better than you are. Being better is hard. You have to quit being selfish and dishonest with your fellow humans if you want your kids to do the same. You have to quit responding to stress with anger if you want your kids to quit throwing tantrums. You have to quit watching TV and do something productive if you want your kids to be good about doing their homework. Before your kids are even one year old, all they want to do is imitate you and be just like you.
That's most of it. Sure, there's still some amount of making sure they eat healthy instead of eating candy for breakfast, and some contrived reward and punishment system that needs to be in place in order to teach them about stuff they are too young to experience first-hand. But that is not the biggest part.
If you're doing it right, the worst punishment you ever need to dole out is something like only reading them one book before bed tonight instead of two. Even shouting and timeouts are rarely needed, if ever. Again, IF you're doing it right.
Your kids are going to be (or are) so annoying.
Walkerdog on MTGO
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
Fact: Children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is illegal.
Fact: CP is not needed to discipline kids.
It's only use is to make your job of raising your kid easier, whether or not it does that I don't know.
I think CP is very much wrong.
But it is also a fact that children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is legal, and equally some turn out to be awful terrible abusive people in countries where CP is illegal.
I'm not sure what I think on the subject, it's complex. But those facts are interesting too.
I figure I could take a bear.
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Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
I was one of the people who support CP (though I'm not entirely sure I'd ever use it if I had kids). Those callers were douches.
You & Bowen typify the stereotypical American loud and proud rejection of established science. It's appalling.
.
Really? Because I'm open to different parenting techniques. I'm not really open to internet douchebag (Yar) telling everyone else how inferior their parenting technique is to the one he (or she?) uses and how they're abusive because they don't parent the way he thinks is the only acceptable way
Walkerdog on MTGO
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
0
HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Fact: Children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is illegal.
Fact: CP is not needed to discipline kids.
It's only use is to make your job of raising your kid easier, whether or not it does that I don't know.
I think CP is very much wrong.
But it is also a fact that children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is legal, and equally some turn out to be awful terrible abusive people in countries where CP is illegal.
I'm not sure what I think on the subject, it's complex. But those facts are interesting too.
I agree completely, those are very interesting facts.
This simplifies the issue to whether or not making the job of raising your kids easier is worth hitting another person to you. I would answer no.
Fact: Children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is illegal.
Fact: CP is not needed to discipline kids.
It's only use is to make your job of raising your kid easier, whether or not it does that I don't know.
I think CP is very much wrong.
But it is also a fact that children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is legal, and equally some turn out to be awful terrible abusive people in countries where CP is illegal.
I'm not sure what I think on the subject, it's complex. But those facts are interesting too.
I agree completely, those are very interesting facts.
This simplifies the issue to whether or not making the job of raising your kids easier is worth hitting another person to you. I would answer no.
Jesus. If the only thing you're able to say is 'Have you stopped beating your wife?', why bother?
Really? Because I'm open to different parenting techniques. I'm not really open to internet douchebag (Yar) telling everyone else how inferior their parenting technique is to the one he (or she?) uses and how they're abusive because they don't parent the way he thinks is the only acceptable way
I'm curious here, but do you believe that parenting is an entirely undefinable and unknowable practice that is so beyond measure that all methods are considered functionally equal? Would you say something similar about say, driving styles? Why or why not?
If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"
Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
Really? Because I'm open to different parenting techniques. I'm not really open to internet douchebag (Yar) telling everyone else how inferior their parenting technique is to the one he (or she?) uses and how they're abusive because they don't parent the way he thinks is the only acceptable way
Yar isn't a douchebag just because he pointed to empirical evidence demonstrating that you are wrong.
Maybe, just perhaps, you could reconsider your infallible expertise in the matter of child-rearing if someone informs you that your current behavior is harmful? Instead of becoming incredibly defensive and insisting that your way is right no matter what anyone says or what any data shows, which is a pretty good sign that not only are you wrong, but that you know you're wrong and feel threatened by an argument you know you cannot prevail over.
With Love and Courage
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Fact: Children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is illegal.
Fact: CP is not needed to discipline kids.
It's only use is to make your job of raising your kid easier, whether or not it does that I don't know.
I think CP is very much wrong.
But it is also a fact that children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is legal, and equally some turn out to be awful terrible abusive people in countries where CP is illegal.
I'm not sure what I think on the subject, it's complex. But those facts are interesting too.
I agree completely, those are very interesting facts.
This simplifies the issue to whether or not making the job of raising your kids easier is worth hitting another person to you. I would answer no.
Jesus. If the only thing you're able to say is 'Have you stopped beating your wife?', why bother?
Technically, he's saying "Have you stopped beating your kids?" But that's a digression.
People don't want to admit they, or their own parents, did something as wrong as abuse. Even though all evidence points to spanking being psychologically damaging and incredibly inefficient.
But who gives a shit what you did yesterday? Say 'my bad' and move on; ignorance is an excuse, but willful ignorance is not.
If people actually cared about anything but their own egos, they'd admit they were wrong in the past and stop beating their kids.
@Kamar you touch on an important point: psychologically speaking, it's very difficult for people to admit they are/were wrong, or admit their parental figures were/are wrong. I am over-summarizing but having confidence in one's own decisions and beliefs increases one's chance for survival. That still doesn't excuse anyone from committing or condoning child abuse, mind you. Since our society claims to put rational thinking in such high regard, people need to be judged by that standard. (Of course, we don't. But hell, we SHOULD hold people to high standards of rationality and not let them wallow in instinct and emotion.)
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HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Fact: Children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is illegal.
Fact: CP is not needed to discipline kids.
It's only use is to make your job of raising your kid easier, whether or not it does that I don't know.
I think CP is very much wrong.
But it is also a fact that children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is legal, and equally some turn out to be awful terrible abusive people in countries where CP is illegal.
I'm not sure what I think on the subject, it's complex. But those facts are interesting too.
I agree completely, those are very interesting facts.
This simplifies the issue to whether or not making the job of raising your kids easier is worth hitting another person to you. I would answer no.
Jesus. If the only thing you're able to say is 'Have you stopped beating your wife?', why bother?
Technically, he's saying "Have you stopped beating your kids?" But that's a digression.
I don't understand what either of you mean, honestly.
Fact: Children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is illegal.
Fact: CP is not needed to discipline kids.
It's only use is to make your job of raising your kid easier, whether or not it does that I don't know.
I think CP is very much wrong.
But it is also a fact that children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is legal, and equally some turn out to be awful terrible abusive people in countries where CP is illegal.
I'm not sure what I think on the subject, it's complex. But those facts are interesting too.
I agree completely, those are very interesting facts.
This simplifies the issue to whether or not making the job of raising your kids easier is worth hitting another person to you. I would answer no.
Jesus. If the only thing you're able to say is 'Have you stopped beating your wife?', why bother?
Technically, he's saying "Have you stopped beating your kids?" But that's a digression.
I don't understand what either of you mean, honestly.
'Have you stopped beating your wife?' is a famous trick question. It assumes that the person is already beating their wife, so both yes and no are bad answers.
I felt that your point was as irritating as Yar's is, in that you assume that the person you're talking to is an abusive parent without knowing anything about them. Which, to a real parent such as myself, is incredibly offensive, actual fighting talk in real life. Tremendously rude.
If you inflict physical pain on your children to achieve discipline, you're damaging them according to pretty much every study on the subject. Arguing in the face of so much evidence because your ego won't let you back down and start doing things right doesn't change reality. A duck is a duck and an abusive parent is an abusive parent, and if someone wants to take a swing at me over it that's their problem. Of course, I'd imagine there's a strong correlation between people who start fistfights over words and people who hit their children.
If you inflict physical pain on your children to achieve discipline, you're damaging them according to pretty much every study on the subject. Arguing in the face of so much evidence because your ego won't let you back down and start doing things right doesn't change reality. A duck is a duck and an abusive parent is an abusive parent, and if someone wants to take a swing at me over it that's their problem. Of course, I'd imagine there's a strong correlation between people who start fistfights over words and people who hit their children.
Are you literally unable to debate without insulting people who question your logic and evidence?
I figure I could take a bear.
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HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited January 2012
Okay I see, I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else - I did not mean to. Honestly.
I don't believe that CP is necessarily abusive, or even that it is abuse in most cases. And obviously there are vastly different degrees or ways to practice it. But I don't see any way to get around that it involves hitting your kids, to some extent that is what it means. And that is what I wrote - and it is not a false statement.
And since we established that kids grow up to be decent or not regardless of CP - we established that it is obviously not a requirement to raising kids.
I understand why people would practice CP. But what you need to level with me here is that where I grew up CP was exactly as socially and legally unaccepted as physically punishing your spouse. I'm not saying that it is the same thing at all, I am not saying it to aggravate - I am saying this because it is the case here and so that you can understand where I am coming from with my view on CP. The subject is obviously loaded on everyones part because the legal and cultural aspects regarding it are VASTLY different where we come from.
Again, honest argument - I am not trying to be a dick. If my view on the subject seems rude I am sorry.
People who hit their kids, even occasionally, even with great restraint, are damaging them to some degree. There is no evidence that hitting your kids is in any way conductive to anything good, including basic obedience (except in the very short term).
In other words, hitting your kids is damaging them for no reason whatsoever. How else would you describe such behavior, if not 'abusive'?
I'm not trying to call every parent who has ever hit their kid a bad person. I'm saying many parents are engaging in very very bad behavior out of ignorance.
Okay I see, I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else - I did not mean to. Honestly.
I don't believe that CP is necessarily abusive, or even that it is abuse in most cases. And obviously there are vastly different degrees or ways to practice it. But I don't see any way to get around that it involves hitting your kids, to some extent that is what it means. And that is what I wrote - and it is not a false statement.
And since we established that kids grow up to be decent or not regardless of CP - we established that it is obviously not a requirement to raising kids.
I understand why people would practice CP. But what you need to level with me here is that where I grew up CP was exactly as socially and legally unaccepted as physically punishing your spouse. I'm not saying that it is the same thing at all, I am not saying it to aggravate - I am saying this because it is the case here and so that you can understand where I am coming from with my view on CP. The subject is obviously loaded on everyones part because the legal and cultural aspects regarding it are VASTLY different where we come from.
Well, I don't want to talk very much about the exact details of the way I raise my daughter, out of defensiveness at all the accusations that get adhommed around here.
But I do think there is a level of 'CP' that is so minimal, so utterly pathetic, that it can't possibly actually damage your child. I think it's only justified when your child is trying to do something tremendously dangerous, like put their tongue in the electricity sockets, or grab a tureen of boiling stew. A pat so tremendously light it literally wouldn't hurt at all, but sends a powerful message because of it's difference from usual punishments (time-outs). The purpose is to literally save them from serious injury, because young children either do not listen or can't understand you.
And then my other point is that sometimes parents do hit their children in anger or impatience. And that's wrong. But raising a child is tremendously hard, and even though those hits are stronger than the stern pat I mentioned above, so long as it's below a certain threshold of strength, I think it's one of those things that we have to try and forgive. Because I don't believe that physical violence is of a different order to emotional violence, and parents say and do horrible things to their kids sometimes, no matter how much they love them, and I don't think I believe anyone who says that they are the unique benevolent parental immanence who doesn't.
poshniallo on
I figure I could take a bear.
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HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Both of the examples you mentioned I would not even call CP so we're pretty much on the same page.
My problem is when it's considered a valid form of systematic punishment. If a kid reaches out for a socket you need to push or pull them away without question, you obviously won't be standing around debating about it with a child. And everybody loses their temper - what you mentioned there happens to everybody.
I'm not actually saying that I expect every parent to be perfect all the time or that anyone who hits their kids every is a terrible parent and should be locked up or separated from their kids. I'm just saying that it is either always or "so damn close to always you might as well not bother trying to decide in a given situation" the wrong thing to do. So parents should willfully avoid it to the best of their ability.
Fact: Children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is illegal.
Fact: CP is not needed to discipline kids.
It's only use is to make your job of raising your kid easier, whether or not it does that I don't know.
I think CP is very much wrong.
But it is also a fact that children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is legal, and equally some turn out to be awful terrible abusive people in countries where CP is illegal.
I'm not sure what I think on the subject, it's complex. But those facts are interesting too.
I agree completely, those are very interesting facts.
This simplifies the issue to whether or not making the job of raising your kids easier is worth hitting another person to you. I would answer no.
Jesus. If the only thing you're able to say is 'Have you stopped beating your wife?', why bother?
Technically, he's saying "Have you stopped beating your kids?" But that's a digression.
That's the number one problem with anti-CP arguments right there. They demonize the opposition by using the loaded word and statement. I don't really give shits either way, I often play devil's advocate so, uh, good luck trying to guess what I really believe.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I'll never get why the same people who believe it is okay to hit children to teach them a lesson tend to not believe it is alright for the government to teach citizens proper behavior through pain. Classical conditioning does not suddenly stops working as you get older. If this is an effective, moral, method why stop using it?
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
You don't get as many experience points though, because it's not a fair fight.
Drez on
Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
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OceanExtorting38Amazingness Is My Profession. Pwning Is My PassionRocktown MIRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
In Texas? Why am i not surprised -_-
How is this even debatable? I can't believe people in this thread actually support ANY degree of CP. I drop a man if I ever saw him strike his child, I don't care who it is. It's immature, cowardly, and sets a horrible example for our future. To the idiots who take part in this crap, shame on you. I don't care if it's a smack in the face all the way to whipping your disabled child with a belt, it's fucked up and just pathetic.
If you want to debate it with me, I'd love to discuss so I can express how much it disgusts me.
Posts
I was driving home and I have this podcast that I listen to. It's a live podcast so they have callers and everything. Now I'm a couple months behind because they do 6 shows a week and I hardly have a chance to listen. Anyway I just got to the major news day when this whole incident happened, and JESUS some of these callers were so flat out insane I just had to post them so that I could feel the cooling relief of you guys (IE sanity) tearing them apart like wet tissue.
Caller 1:
Oh if that were my daughter I would have hit her harder. What the fuck is all this about talking to your kinds, I don't negotiate with children!
Caller 2:
Well how do you know that she didn't end up the way she is now BECAUSE of the beatings? It's called discipline and they might be the reason she's a responsible person today.
Caller 3: I think he did the right thing. I mean all this talk about spankings with bare hands, I thought you weren't supposed to hit a kid with your bare hands. I thought you were supposed to use belts and whips and such, I mean why do you think it's called a "whipping"? My parents never laid a finger on me, they always used a belt, and I turned out just fine!
Caller 4: Well I don't think people without kids should be allowed to have an opinion on this video.
I just...
And yes, please spare me then "any spanking is abuse" and "well anything that psychologically stresses a child is technically abuse then too" mirror argument.
I fist-thump my chest in respect to bowen, though. I even say "respect" while I do it. I'm not really looking for this fight again.
But what I'm guessing is probably what really turns CP into abuse is in general the mental association created when a child cannot understand the situation and mis-attributes the violent act to something unintended. So instead of "learning" what the parent wants, they "learn" something else that ends up developing into one form of mental/emotional impairment or another. Since violence is a very powerful but very negative motivator that means that it would be extremely poorly suited to being used as a tool to actually teach anyone anything, especially children.[/thread]
That's the real thing about raising kids that is so difficult. The primary method to raise a good kid is to be a good person. Everyone wants their children to be better than they themselves are/were. But you can't beat that into them, or even time-out that into them. You have to be better than you are if you want your kids to be better than you are. Being better is hard. You have to quit being selfish and dishonest with your fellow humans if you want your kids to do the same. You have to quit responding to stress with anger if you want your kids to quit throwing tantrums. You have to quit watching TV and do something productive if you want your kids to be good about doing their homework. Before your kids are even one year old, all they want to do is imitate you and be just like you.
That's most of it. Sure, there's still some amount of making sure they eat healthy instead of eating candy for breakfast, and some contrived reward and punishment system that needs to be in place in order to teach them about stuff they are too young to experience first-hand. But that is not the biggest part.
If you're doing it right, the worst punishment you ever need to dole out is something like only reading them one book before bed tonight instead of two. Even shouting and timeouts are rarely needed, if ever. Again, IF you're doing it right.
Your kids are going to be (or are) so annoying.
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
You & Bowen typify the stereotypical American loud and proud rejection of established science. It's appalling.
Fact: CP is not needed to discipline kids.
It's only use is to make your job of raising your kid easier, whether or not it does that I don't know.
I think CP is very much wrong.
But it is also a fact that children grow up to be decent human beings in countries where CP is legal, and equally some turn out to be awful terrible abusive people in countries where CP is illegal.
I'm not sure what I think on the subject, it's complex. But those facts are interesting too.
Steam Profile | Signature art by Alexandra 'Lexxy' Douglass
Really? Because I'm open to different parenting techniques. I'm not really open to internet douchebag (Yar) telling everyone else how inferior their parenting technique is to the one he (or she?) uses and how they're abusive because they don't parent the way he thinks is the only acceptable way
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
I agree completely, those are very interesting facts.
This simplifies the issue to whether or not making the job of raising your kids easier is worth hitting another person to you. I would answer no.
Jesus. If the only thing you're able to say is 'Have you stopped beating your wife?', why bother?
I'm curious here, but do you believe that parenting is an entirely undefinable and unknowable practice that is so beyond measure that all methods are considered functionally equal? Would you say something similar about say, driving styles? Why or why not?
Yar isn't a douchebag just because he pointed to empirical evidence demonstrating that you are wrong.
Maybe, just perhaps, you could reconsider your infallible expertise in the matter of child-rearing if someone informs you that your current behavior is harmful? Instead of becoming incredibly defensive and insisting that your way is right no matter what anyone says or what any data shows, which is a pretty good sign that not only are you wrong, but that you know you're wrong and feel threatened by an argument you know you cannot prevail over.
Technically, he's saying "Have you stopped beating your kids?" But that's a digression.
But who gives a shit what you did yesterday? Say 'my bad' and move on; ignorance is an excuse, but willful ignorance is not.
If people actually cared about anything but their own egos, they'd admit they were wrong in the past and stop beating their kids.
I don't understand what either of you mean, honestly.
'Have you stopped beating your wife?' is a famous trick question. It assumes that the person is already beating their wife, so both yes and no are bad answers.
I felt that your point was as irritating as Yar's is, in that you assume that the person you're talking to is an abusive parent without knowing anything about them. Which, to a real parent such as myself, is incredibly offensive, actual fighting talk in real life. Tremendously rude.
If you inflict physical pain on your children to achieve discipline, you're damaging them according to pretty much every study on the subject. Arguing in the face of so much evidence because your ego won't let you back down and start doing things right doesn't change reality. A duck is a duck and an abusive parent is an abusive parent, and if someone wants to take a swing at me over it that's their problem. Of course, I'd imagine there's a strong correlation between people who start fistfights over words and people who hit their children.
Are you literally unable to debate without insulting people who question your logic and evidence?
I don't believe that CP is necessarily abusive, or even that it is abuse in most cases. And obviously there are vastly different degrees or ways to practice it. But I don't see any way to get around that it involves hitting your kids, to some extent that is what it means. And that is what I wrote - and it is not a false statement.
And since we established that kids grow up to be decent or not regardless of CP - we established that it is obviously not a requirement to raising kids.
I understand why people would practice CP. But what you need to level with me here is that where I grew up CP was exactly as socially and legally unaccepted as physically punishing your spouse. I'm not saying that it is the same thing at all, I am not saying it to aggravate - I am saying this because it is the case here and so that you can understand where I am coming from with my view on CP. The subject is obviously loaded on everyones part because the legal and cultural aspects regarding it are VASTLY different where we come from.
Again, honest argument - I am not trying to be a dick. If my view on the subject seems rude I am sorry.
In other words, hitting your kids is damaging them for no reason whatsoever. How else would you describe such behavior, if not 'abusive'?
I'm not trying to call every parent who has ever hit their kid a bad person. I'm saying many parents are engaging in very very bad behavior out of ignorance.
Well, I don't want to talk very much about the exact details of the way I raise my daughter, out of defensiveness at all the accusations that get adhommed around here.
But I do think there is a level of 'CP' that is so minimal, so utterly pathetic, that it can't possibly actually damage your child. I think it's only justified when your child is trying to do something tremendously dangerous, like put their tongue in the electricity sockets, or grab a tureen of boiling stew. A pat so tremendously light it literally wouldn't hurt at all, but sends a powerful message because of it's difference from usual punishments (time-outs). The purpose is to literally save them from serious injury, because young children either do not listen or can't understand you.
And then my other point is that sometimes parents do hit their children in anger or impatience. And that's wrong. But raising a child is tremendously hard, and even though those hits are stronger than the stern pat I mentioned above, so long as it's below a certain threshold of strength, I think it's one of those things that we have to try and forgive. Because I don't believe that physical violence is of a different order to emotional violence, and parents say and do horrible things to their kids sometimes, no matter how much they love them, and I don't think I believe anyone who says that they are the unique benevolent parental immanence who doesn't.
My problem is when it's considered a valid form of systematic punishment. If a kid reaches out for a socket you need to push or pull them away without question, you obviously won't be standing around debating about it with a child. And everybody loses their temper - what you mentioned there happens to everybody.
That's the number one problem with anti-CP arguments right there. They demonize the opposition by using the loaded word and statement. I don't really give shits either way, I often play devil's advocate so, uh, good luck trying to guess what I really believe.
You don't get as many experience points though, because it's not a fair fight.
How is this even debatable? I can't believe people in this thread actually support ANY degree of CP. I drop a man if I ever saw him strike his child, I don't care who it is. It's immature, cowardly, and sets a horrible example for our future. To the idiots who take part in this crap, shame on you. I don't care if it's a smack in the face all the way to whipping your disabled child with a belt, it's fucked up and just pathetic.
If you want to debate it with me, I'd love to discuss so I can express how much it disgusts me.