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Buying [used] kills all the babies

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Posts

  • programjunkieprogramjunkie Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote:
    People do vote with their wallet, but then companies turn around and claim that used games and piracy are ruining their sales, not because their games suck.

    Obviously this "vote with wallet" thing is not the end-all-be-all answer while we have the scapegoats of consumer rights in the mix.

    Seconded. I cannot tell if they are merely willfully ignorant, or cynical liars, but regardless of any other factor, if a game doesn't sell to expectations, it was piracy's fault, and now they've added "used games" to the list of wicked influences they have no control over that are beleaguering their innocent game development efforts.

    Wicked Demiurge in most games. Solacus is my main in GW2.
  • jclastjclast Registered User regular
    tehkensai wrote:
    meanwhile EA is trying for some record of asinine ways to get extra content for ME3. last i counted there are demos, online passes for other games, soda bottles, a facebook page, and action figures that all dole out content for the game. it's like they're trying to confuse people or something.

    Actually, I dont really think(some of it) its asinine at all. The demo's thing is probably the best, though. Its literally, here, try this free shit and we give you free shit. I dont understand the complaint about the KOA demo, and to be honest its probably one of the smartest things they could have done to help that game out-just getting it exposure. It was a great advertisement for it and it seems to have worked pretty damn well. Free shit with a minimum of effort is never a bad thing.

    And hopefully, Aegeri, thats not the case with the ME3 Squadmate.
    I played the KoA:R demo. I played it just for the ME3 unlocks. My issue with it is that it's not a very good demo. I played for 2 hours to get ME3 stuff. I knew after 30 minutes that I didn't want to buy or play any more KoA:R. And then I was pissed again at the end because if you're going to encourage me to play the demo for 2 hours give me the ability to save my progress so that if I had wanted to pick it up those 2 hours weren't a waste.

    I need to find these soda bottles and maybe action figures though. I'm a pretty big whore for Mass Effect stuff. I bookmarked their facebook page yesterday and will be playing whatever they're peddling if it means more ME3 stuff. I actually like those kind of tie-ins because everybody can get them.

    steam_sig.png
  • ShutdownShutdown Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote:
    People do vote with their wallet, but then companies turn around and claim that used games and piracy are ruining their sales, not because their games suck.

    Obviously this "vote with wallet" thing is not the end-all-be-all answer while we have the scapegoats of consumer rights in the mix.

    Seconded. I cannot tell if they are merely willfully ignorant, or cynical liars, but regardless of any other factor, if a game doesn't sell to expectations, it was piracy's fault, and now they've added "used games" to the list of wicked influences they have no control over that are beleaguering their innocent game development efforts.

    My thoughts exactly.

  • BeltaineBeltaine BOO BOO DOO DE DOORegistered User regular
    Our game sucks? Unpossible! <Insert Obscure Publication> gave it a 5/5!

    Robble robble piracy robble damn kids robble robble...

    XdDBi4F.jpg
    PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
  • Skull2185Skull2185 Mr. Steal yo' heart Registered User regular
    jclast wrote:
    I played the KoA:R demo. I played it just for the ME3 unlocks. My issue with it is that it's not a very good demo. I played for 2 hours to get ME3 stuff. I knew after 30 minutes that I didn't want to buy or play any more KoA:R. And then I was pissed again at the end because if you're going to encourage me to play the demo for 2 hours give me the ability to save my progress so that if I had wanted to pick it up those 2 hours weren't a waste.

    I need to find these soda bottles and maybe action figures though. I'm a pretty big whore for Mass Effect stuff. I bookmarked their facebook page yesterday and will be playing whatever they're peddling if it means more ME3 stuff. I actually like those kind of tie-ins because everybody can get them.

    How did you play a 45 minute demo for 2 hours? Off and on?

  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote:
    People do vote with their wallet, but then companies turn around and claim that used games and piracy are ruining their sales, not because their games suck.

    Obviously this "vote with wallet" thing is not the end-all-be-all answer while we have the scapegoats of consumer rights in the mix.

    This is part of the problem.

    http://www.usgamer.net/
    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
    I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
  • jclastjclast Registered User regular
    Skull2185 wrote:
    jclast wrote:
    I played the KoA:R demo. I played it just for the ME3 unlocks. My issue with it is that it's not a very good demo. I played for 2 hours to get ME3 stuff. I knew after 30 minutes that I didn't want to buy or play any more KoA:R. And then I was pissed again at the end because if you're going to encourage me to play the demo for 2 hours give me the ability to save my progress so that if I had wanted to pick it up those 2 hours weren't a waste.

    I need to find these soda bottles and maybe action figures though. I'm a pretty big whore for Mass Effect stuff. I bookmarked their facebook page yesterday and will be playing whatever they're peddling if it means more ME3 stuff. I actually like those kind of tie-ins because everybody can get them.

    How did you play a 45 minute demo for 2 hours? Off and on?
    Maybe it was closer to 90 minutes. Either way, it's because the timer doesn't start until you're through a pretty lengthy intro area and even then it doesn't run while you're in a dialog or a menu screen.

    steam_sig.png
  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    Skull2185 wrote:
    jclast wrote:
    I played the KoA:R demo. I played it just for the ME3 unlocks. My issue with it is that it's not a very good demo. I played for 2 hours to get ME3 stuff. I knew after 30 minutes that I didn't want to buy or play any more KoA:R. And then I was pissed again at the end because if you're going to encourage me to play the demo for 2 hours give me the ability to save my progress so that if I had wanted to pick it up those 2 hours weren't a waste.

    I need to find these soda bottles and maybe action figures though. I'm a pretty big whore for Mass Effect stuff. I bookmarked their facebook page yesterday and will be playing whatever they're peddling if it means more ME3 stuff. I actually like those kind of tie-ins because everybody can get them.

    How did you play a 45 minute demo for 2 hours? Off and on?

    If you pause the game or access the menu, the timer stops. Maybe that's what he meant?

  • TOGSolidTOGSolid I didn't choose the tiki life, the tiki life chose me Inside a bottle of rumRegistered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Skull2185 wrote:
    jclast wrote:
    I played the KoA:R demo. I played it just for the ME3 unlocks. My issue with it is that it's not a very good demo. I played for 2 hours to get ME3 stuff. I knew after 30 minutes that I didn't want to buy or play any more KoA:R. And then I was pissed again at the end because if you're going to encourage me to play the demo for 2 hours give me the ability to save my progress so that if I had wanted to pick it up those 2 hours weren't a waste.

    I need to find these soda bottles and maybe action figures though. I'm a pretty big whore for Mass Effect stuff. I bookmarked their facebook page yesterday and will be playing whatever they're peddling if it means more ME3 stuff. I actually like those kind of tie-ins because everybody can get them.

    How did you play a 45 minute demo for 2 hours? Off and on?

    I had 8 hours in the Space Marine Demo on Steam. :3 Two hours for a 45 minute demo is pretty reasonable in comparison.

    Lilnoobs wrote:
    People do vote with their wallet, but then companies turn around and claim that used games and piracy are ruining their sales, not because their games suck.

    Obviously this "vote with wallet" thing is not the end-all-be-all answer while we have the scapegoats of consumer rights in the mix.

    Seconded. I cannot tell if they are merely willfully ignorant, or cynical liars, but regardless of any other factor, if a game doesn't sell to expectations, it was piracy's fault, and now they've added "used games" to the list of wicked influences they have no control over that are beleaguering their innocent game development efforts.

    It doesn't always work, but occasionally it gets results. Buying the shit out of a game that does something right and openly praising the devs/publishers for WHY we really liked it does work a hell of a lot better than not buying something at all. I.e., open praise for SSX's Online Pass setup combined with fantastic sales would do a lot to tell EA "hey, that's a great compromise and the customers like it, we should keep doing that."

    Negative reinforcement unfortunately just makes the uppity ups draw all the wrong conclusions, but at least we get to bitch right back at them. The companies are, however, listening more and more to our rantings and ravings, we just need to keep being vocal and providing constructive feedback (which is something your average gamer unfortunately has a hard time doing).

    TOGSolid on
  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote:
    Skull2185 wrote:
    jclast wrote:
    I played the KoA:R demo. I played it just for the ME3 unlocks. My issue with it is that it's not a very good demo. I played for 2 hours to get ME3 stuff. I knew after 30 minutes that I didn't want to buy or play any more KoA:R. And then I was pissed again at the end because if you're going to encourage me to play the demo for 2 hours give me the ability to save my progress so that if I had wanted to pick it up those 2 hours weren't a waste.

    I need to find these soda bottles and maybe action figures though. I'm a pretty big whore for Mass Effect stuff. I bookmarked their facebook page yesterday and will be playing whatever they're peddling if it means more ME3 stuff. I actually like those kind of tie-ins because everybody can get them.

    How did you play a 45 minute demo for 2 hours? Off and on?

    If you pause the game or access the menu, the timer stops. Maybe that's what he meant?

    Plus the timer doesn't start until after the tutorial part. I actually clocked 3 hours in it first time through.

    Also, that demo is awesome.

  • BlendtecBlendtec PittsburghRegistered User regular
    edited February 2012
    I game almost exclusively on the PC. I do own a Wii and an old Xbox that I bust out occasionally, usually for parties or co-op fun. Luckily we have a chain in our area called the Exchange, they sell preowned CDs, movies, games and vinyls. Awesome store, tons of selection and a great return policy. In the event I want to play something on the Wii/Xbox I head down there with $10 or so, pick out a game or two that looks good ($2.50 - $10 on average for Xbox/GC games, Wii stuff is maybe $20) and add it to my collection.

    I have 2 roommates one Xboxer, one PS3er. One (Xbox) buys stuff new to get DLC and preorder bonuses, then keeps the games depending on his enjoyment with them, he's got a fairly decent collection, most of it is AAA games. The other (PS3) can count on one hand the games he has bought brand new, he gets games at the Exchange, plays through them quickly and then returns them, often claiming they are broken or other shenanigans to get a full refund. He hates PC gaming because he can't do that with PC games. He has DLC for maybe 2 of his games and maintains a very small collection. The Xbox roommate believes in supporting developers he likes and who make enjoyable games. The PS3 roommate just wants to play the games as cheaply as possible and has little to no support for developers, but is often the first to complain when a game is canceled/delayed for whatever reason.

    Point is, used game sales aren't the devil developers make them out to be. Sure, there are people like my PS3 roommate who abuse the system. But then there are people who get a game because it's cheaper used, end up liking it and getting DLC or preordering that companies next game. The gaming industry can't lumber in and attempt to regulate it. Even if they somehow close down places like Gamestop or the Exchange, people will still trade games with their friends and use Craigslist and such. It's just like the music industry, they can't control CD resales, how many copies of something I burn for my friends or people who are pirating.

    If the Nextbox does end up not allowing used games, they will shoot themselves in the foot and never recover. Unless every console does it, people will just abandon the few that do. If developers want to stay relevant and keep the income flowing, I think the games need to be cheaper new, even if it is just a return to $50 instead of $60. Don't be so greedy and keep games at the ceiling price wise forever, there is no reason a new copy of MW2 should've been $50 a year after it came out. Start using DLC for good, make complete games, but keep them shorter and make them cheaper. Then down the road make DLC that adds to the story. None of this day 1 DLC already on the disk or having to have DLC to finish the story crap (looking at you, Bioware). You want customers to buy your product? Convince them it's worth it to actually buy it, rather than just picking up a used game as more of a rental.

    Blendtec on
    I also go by Twinkie in some games. Add me on Steam!
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  • Angel177Angel177 Registered User regular
    vsove wrote:

    On the other hand, I've seen Dragon Age 2 brought up as an example where the content was 'obviously' cut from the main game. It wasn't. It was conceived and planned long after the main game was already in full production. The argument I've heard most commonly is 'well, he offers a perspective that isn't in the main game and which helps you understand the other side better'. This is because, when the character was being planned, it was done so specifically to avoid replicating a viewpoint or character that already existed.

    But because it felt so integrated into the game, people viewed it as a certainty that it was content that had just been pulled out of the main game wholesale and sold as DLC. Which wasn't true - it was scheduled and budgeted separately from the rest of the game. Which raises the question - do you make value-add content obviously DLC by avoiding the urge to more fully integrate it into the rest of the game, or do you make content that feels like it's naturally part of the main title and endure the 'well, this is CLEARLY cut content' slings and arrows?

    Which goes back to my main point - I'd definitely agree that adding value to new purchases is a vastly superior method than taking away value from used purchases. But it can be very difficult, from a consumer perspective, to tell which is which.

    Just to add to this point, as one of the people who tested DA2 and all the DLC that went with it, Sebastian was, as said, planned afterwards and great care was taken not to replicate any of the other characters viewpoints or ability's (there are quite a suggestions in the database talking about it) Hell I remember when Seb had blonde hair!

    The integration of Seb into the game was not easy, Vsove and the rest of the teams that had a hand in getting him smoothly into the game should be applauded not viewed upon with suspicion, Isn't this what we want as gamers? DLC that enhances the game? DLC that doesn't feel like it was made by another team? in another studio? (Castlevania LoS DLC is a good example).

    In regards to used games "killing babies", Having worked in the industry I can see the more 'human' aspect of the gaming industry, the people who work on the games, the pressures those people are under. It also means I see the business side more as well, Online passes are an idea, and like all ideas it needs time to grow and evolve, the industry is adapting but like all things it takes time to work out the kinks.

    I would hope the 720 won't lock out used games, That the online pass rewards more than restricts, and we all get DLC that make the purchase feel worth our hard earned cash, but that's another issue, its all subjective:)



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  • BroktuneBroktune Registered User
    Buy whatever your heart wants. It's interesting, I'm sure 90% on this site support the occupy movement but when it comes to gaming companies, the same doesn't apply. Or maybe I'm completely wrong. Either way, I think you should buy the cheapest way you can.

  • KobunKobun Registered User
    Lilnoobs wrote:
    People do vote with their wallet, but then companies turn around and claim that used games and piracy are ruining their sales, not because their games suck.

    Obviously this "vote with wallet" thing is not the end-all-be-all answer while we have the scapegoats of consumer rights in the mix.

    Except that a simple Google search or excessive on-line play confirmation can be easy means to back up those piracy concerns. Clearly the validity would have to be examined on a case by case basis, but I wouldn't be so quick to say that companies are fabricating the impact of piracy on sales. I'd say a claim may smell dubious only when there has been a significant, noticeable campaign to boycott a game, and a company in turn claims piracy hurt sales without acknowledging the change in consumer attitude and/or company policy which may have driven people away.

    Thing is, based on Internet whining of the last few years, video game fans really do not know how to vote with their wallet, either caving in with Left 4 Dead 2 or just pirating the game per norm where "boycott = still enjoy the game from the company you're raging against but without paying for it." The Mega Man Legends petition is nice, but how many of those signers would be willing to avoid buying and ignoring all future Capcom games as a measure of a genuine protest?

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  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Except that's a bunch of harble garble backed up by garble harble.

    Does piracy equal a lost sale (1:1) to you? If so, then we're done because that's the kind of nonsense developers like to spew.

    I won't even touch the boycotting thing because that's just a general misinformed argument against boycotts in general. Nothing new.

    Lilnoobs on
  • TOGSolidTOGSolid I didn't choose the tiki life, the tiki life chose me Inside a bottle of rumRegistered User regular
    edited February 2012
    The Mega Man Legends petition is nice, but how many of those signers would be willing to avoid buying and ignoring all future Capcom games as a measure of a genuine protest?
    Apparently none of them because they're all still whining like complete bastards in every forum for every current Capcom game. Though I suppose Capcom intentionally trollling them all doesn't help but still, if they were really that mad then why are they still buying Capcom games and then bitching about it?

    As far as the piracy vs sales and all that, sales and piracy rates kinda follow each other. I'm not arguing that piracy drives sales, but more just general popularity drives both of them equally. The better a game is selling, the more it tends to be pirated but the two don't necessarily have any causation linking each other. In all reality, there really have only been a few times where piracy has done obvious, legitimate harm to a game. Titan Quest is a really notable example of that.

    TOGSolid on
  • slurpeepoopslurpeepoop Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    TOGSolid wrote:
    The Mega Man Legends petition is nice, but how many of those signers would be willing to avoid buying and ignoring all future Capcom games as a measure of a genuine protest?
    Apparently none of them because they're all still whining like complete bastards in every forum for every current Capcom game. Though I suppose Capcom intentionally trollling them all doesn't help but still, if they were really that mad then why are they still buying Capcom games and then bitching about it?

    As far as the piracy vs sales and all that, sales and piracy rates kinda follow each other. I'm not arguing that piracy drives sales, but more just general popularity drives both of them equally. The better a game is selling, the more it tends to be pirated but the two don't necessarily have any causation linking each other. In all reality, there really have only been a few times where piracy has done obvious, legitimate harm to a game. Titan Quest is a really notable example of that.


    Piracy didn't hurt Titan Quest.

    Bad word of mouth hurt Titan Quest, which resulted from the devs putting an intentional crash code in the (pirated) game. Pirates played it, said it kept crashing, the internet concluded it was a buggy mess, and nobody bought it.

    It wasn't piracy that cost the company sales. It was the internet bandwagon echo chamber responding to an intentional bug that they thought was unintentionally indicitive of the game.

    slurpeepoop on


  • GlalGlal Registered User regular
    Being soulless and boring hurt Titan Quest.
    O-ho!

  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Lilnoobs wrote:
    Except that's a bunch of harble garble backed up by garble harble.

    Does piracy equal a lost sale (1:1) to you? If so, then we're done because that's the kind of nonsense developers like to spew.

    I won't even touch the boycotting thing because that's just a general misinformed argument against boycotts in general. Nothing new.

    Does pirating it mean they'd never buy it at all to you?

    If so, then we're done because thats the kind of nonsense people with no real support for their argument like to spew due to having no factual basis to their opinion.

    chocobolicious on
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  • lizardlooplizardloop Registered User regular
    What I've found surprising is how unnecessary I've found buying used to be providing you aren't a "Day 1 buyer".

    I set myself a maximum budget of £20 per game. Quite low but then I tend to be very frugal in all purchases.
    Two weeks a go I bought Demon's Souls, brand new, from Amazon for £13 including delivery.
    A year before that I bought Mass Effect 2 brand new for £10 from Argos.

    If you aren't desperate to play upon release then you can buy new for pretty damn cheap. In fact those prices were a few pound cheaper than the prices used in the game shops near me.

  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote:
    Except that's a bunch of harble garble backed up by garble harble.

    Does piracy equal a lost sale (1:1) to you? If so, then we're done because that's the kind of nonsense developers like to spew.

    I won't even touch the boycotting thing because that's just a general misinformed argument against boycotts in general. Nothing new.

    Does pirating it mean they'd never buy it at all to you?

    If so, then we're done because thats the kind of nonsense people with no real support for their argument like to spew due to having no factual basis to their opinion.


    Oh look, more academic evidence that you're wrong.
    Contrary to what’s often claimed by the movie industry, the researchers conclude that there is no evidence that BitTorrent piracy hurts US box office returns. Internationally, there is a link between downloads and revenues, which the researchers attribute to long release windows.

    http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-piracy-doesnt-affect-us-box-office-returns-study-finds-120210/

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986299

    But, it's just common sense that piracy leads to a lost sale just like it's common sense that buying used kills babies. Go common sense!

  • KobunKobun Registered User
    With "box office returns" being the focus and operative word in that survey. Yes, the crappy cam versions of movies isn't going to stop people from going to the theater to watch movies. It's an experience that can't be replicated via piracy. Music, games, and movies on disc on the other hand... You'll note the study doesn't address that.

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  • GlalGlal Registered User regular
    You're gravely mistaken if you think cam is the best quality of movies that gets pirated.

  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Sshh, don't speak logic, they get mad and start honking when you do.

    And the 'crappy cam version' is pretty much all you're getting if you're trying to replicate a.. gasp, theater experience.

    Unfortunately, as pointed out, you can't just download something and it be the same as a theater. Hence box office comparisons are moot. It's like saying people steal bottles of water so they don't have to go swimming in expensive hotel pools.

    Sure, you /can/ splash yourself with bottled water, but it isn't like you're swimming in a pool.

    chocobolicious on
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  • KobunKobun Registered User
    edited February 2012
    Glal wrote:
    You're gravely mistaken if you think cam is the best quality of movies that gets pirated.

    The survey is talking about box office effects. That means movie torrents which launch during their run in theaters. Those are going to be crappy cams, not screeners, not Blu-ray rips. Again, even if a release a film gets a great quality torrent day one or earlier, going to the show is an entirely different experience. It's akin to doing a study saying that people still ride roller coasters despite video showing you what you're going to see when you pay your ticket. There are things torrents just can't provide when enjoyment is derived from personal interaction in a social experience.

    On the other hand, the only thing you're missing is the packaging from a torrent of a game, album, or Blu-ray. The usage experience is exactly the same, leaving little to distinguish the pirated versus the paid version, particularly as things on the retail side already move more and more to digital distribution.

    Kobun on
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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    all i know is this 1080p.HD.WarHorse.XViD.torrent* i downloaded actually looks better than seeing it in a grainy theater with obnoxious people eating loudly and talking through my movie
    plus i don't have to pay concession prices for my snacks
    * i didn't really download it please don't smite me

    XB1/360 - Local H Jay
    Watch me on TouYubes!
    And Tvvitch!
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