Dustbowl is in heavy rotation on the Valve servers, so you can always go to one of them for some vintage TF2 action.
It's a very rigidly laid out map so the idiot factor doesn't ruin it too much.. it plays just like it always has.
Playing with all pubs =/= playing with a bunch of PA dudes
Yeah, I can actually do well against pubs every now and again.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
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turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
Dustbowl is the worst map. I would rather be on 2fort than Dustbowl. It's always either a complete stomp for blu or a stupid long round of running into a wall of explosives and sentries over and over.
Been quite happy with my TF2 experience after I switched to all pubs. The official Valve servers would be great if they made the rounds shorter, like 1 attack and 1 defend cycle for Dustbowl/Goldrush and only 1 point for PLR maps.
Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
Argh fine you caught me now I actually have to go through with writing the whole damn essay thanks draft autosaver
The tragedy of Team Fortress 2's community content creation system is that the return on investment is inversely proportional to the meaningful impact that the end product will have on the game.
Personally, I think that maps are probably the best thing you can add to the game. Certain dynamics are constant, but a change in layout can have a huge impact on what will be required of each class-- I wouldn't go so far as to say that every map in the same play type is a completely different game, but they're certainly vastly different scenarios and require different tactics of players. Plus, adding a new map to the game is totally safe-- if people don't like it, then servers simply won't run it. There's an automatic distribution mechanism in place, which works because the nobody's actually obligated to use that content. The problem is that to make a map, you have to deal with Hammer. Hammer is a bitch of a tool. It's got the same thing that inflicts most anything written by programmers for their own use-- the interface is almost completely incomprehensible barring extensive tutorial from documentation that barely exists through official channels. (No, putting up a wiki doesn't count.) And once you've made your map, you have to extensively debug it both in terms of mechanical issues and the underlying theory of map creation, an effort which requires about 20 players across multiple sessions. And for this, you might get the opportunity to receive stamps.
With weapons, you need an entirely different skillset. However, given that even I managed to hack together a decent-looking butcher knife for the Medic with just a few hours of effort in Blender starting from no prior rendering experience is a testament to how much easier it is to get something working with a weapon. So long as you aren't doing custom animations, it's fairly easy to interface with the existing bones to get your weapon to match. Plus, they've greatly smoothed out the test pipeline for weapons relative to how it used to be. The odds that Valve will add your weapon to the game are a lot slimmer-- after all, adding a new weapon to the game is a major paradigm shift, and "unsafe" compared to maps, since a new weapon affects every game of TF2 after it's released-- but I'd imagine the payoff is a lot higher. People will pay you for your map if they like it. People will pay you for your weapon if they want to get ahead in the game (or just not wait for it to randomly drop-- that's no longer a viable strategy for getting a given weapon quickly with how many weapons exist).
And then we have hats. Hats require even less work than do weapons, firstly because they're generally smaller (and the polycount allowed on a hat is lower) and second because everything I said about animations doesn't apply to hats. Hats have one bone... the "hat on head" bone. Bone weighting isn't exactly super-difficult, but it presents at least one more vector for error in weapons that isn't present in hats. And since hats are the safest of anything Valve could add to the game-- affecting nothing but fanboy respect levels at worst-- you have a much better chance of getting a hat into the game than a weapon. To say nothing of the massive price disparity between the average hat and the average weapon.
So, you can spend countless hours trying to hack together a map, which might eventually get you some recognition and a tip jug, or you can spend much less time making a weapon and play the lottery, or you can spend even less time on a hat and enter a lottery with a higher jackpot. The economic incentives are back-to-front relative to what's good for the game. And that, I think, is why the game's lost a lot of that charm it started out with (besides, of course, simple attrition): the meaningless doodads are more important than the actual game.
Do you see why I didn't want to write all that, Crash? I hope you're happy.
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
Argh fine you caught me now I actually have to go through with writing the whole damn essay thanks draft autosaver
The tragedy of Team Fortress 2's community content creation system is that the return on investment is inversely proportional to the meaningful impact that the end product will have on the game.
Personally, I think that maps are probably the best thing you can add to the game. Certain dynamics are constant, but a change in layout can have a huge impact on what will be required of each class-- I wouldn't go so far as to say that every map in the same play type is a completely different game, but they're certainly vastly different scenarios and require different tactics of players. Plus, adding a new map to the game is totally safe-- if people don't like it, then servers simply won't run it. There's an automatic distribution mechanism in place, which works because the nobody's actually obligated to use that content. The problem is that to make a map, you have to deal with Hammer. Hammer is a bitch of a tool. It's got the same thing that inflicts most anything written by programmers for their own use-- the interface is almost completely incomprehensible barring extensive tutorial from documentation that barely exists through official channels. (No, putting up a wiki doesn't count.) And once you've made your map, you have to extensively debug it both in terms of mechanical issues and the underlying theory of map creation, an effort which requires about 20 players across multiple sessions. And for this, you might get the opportunity to receive stamps.
With weapons, you need an entirely different skillset. However, given that even I managed to hack together a decent-looking butcher knife for the Medic with just a few hours of effort in Blender starting from no prior rendering experience is a testament to how much easier it is to get something working with a weapon. So long as you aren't doing custom animations, it's fairly easy to interface with the existing bones to get your weapon to match. Plus, they've greatly smoothed out the test pipeline for weapons relative to how it used to be. The odds that Valve will add your weapon to the game are a lot slimmer-- after all, adding a new weapon to the game is a major paradigm shift, and "unsafe" compared to maps, since a new weapon affects every game of TF2 after it's released-- but I'd imagine the payoff is a lot higher. People will pay you for your map if they like it. People will pay you for your weapon if they want to get ahead in the game (or just not wait for it to randomly drop-- that's no longer a viable strategy for getting a given weapon quickly with how many weapons exist).
And then we have hats. Hats require even less work than do weapons, firstly because they're generally smaller (and the polycount allowed on a hat is lower) and second because everything I said about animations doesn't apply to hats. Hats have one bone... the "hat on head" bone. Bone weighting isn't exactly super-difficult, but it presents at least one more vector for error in weapons that isn't present in hats. And since hats are the safest of anything Valve could add to the game-- affecting nothing but fanboy respect levels at worst-- you have a much better chance of getting a hat into the game than a weapon. To say nothing of the massive price disparity between the average hat and the average weapon.
So, you can spend countless hours trying to hack together a map, which might eventually get you some recognition and a tip jug, or you can spend much less time making a weapon and play the lottery, or you can spend even less time on a hat and enter a lottery with a higher jackpot. The economic incentives are back-to-front relative to what's good for the game. And that, I think, is why the game's lost a lot of that charm it started out with (besides, of course, simple attrition): the meaningless doodads are more important than the actual game.
Do you see why I didn't want to write all that, Crash? I hope you're happy.
I agree. And I am happy, so suck it.
I think the biggest change they should make is actually promoting map creation and submission. The fact that the workshop doesn't even take maps is probably the biggest offense. That simple change would open up a ton of contribution and visibility for map creators. Sure, badmaps(tm) will end up getting voted up, because people are terrible and suck at liking good things (lol) which is why Orange maps are so popular. But once the Valve-quality filter is applied to the community choices, I would imagine some prime custom maps would be at the top.
But yes, creating a map is probably the most intensive project I have ever been apart of, I couldn't imagine being apart of a small indie team creating an entire game. I really should take the easier route to Valve-money and just sit down and learn to model... But personally, maps are much more rewarding as a creator. I can't imagine someone using or wearing something you created is even nearly as good of a feeling as seeing a full server running around your map and enjoying all the subtle details you put in. That is just awesome.
Just name the time and place, and I'll see if I can do it. I'm actually about 40 miles away from downtown Chicago itself, so depending on the timing it may or may not work.
Ah. We'll be heading through the train station at around 10:30AM on April 4th, departing at 9:30PM, so there is plenty of time. If you're too late though I'm just going to get the damn sammich without you. My sister used to go to the big Art Institute there and I visited when I was pretty young. I went to Pot Bellies and had the greatest sandwich of my life, I have been craving another since then.
If it's a big hassle it's not a big deal, I forget just because people are in "the city" doesn't mean it's anywhere close. Big ass cities, man. Blows my little-town mind.
turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
edited February 2012
I didn't even know people got paid for items that they made on the workshop that get picked.
I don't think that we should belittle people just because they made a hat and not a map. Loving the game enough to make something for it, make it look nice, and make it not horribly stand out against the underlying look of the game shows they care about the game. Whoever made the scouts new shirt that just got added is probably tickled pink, every time they sees someone wearing it they know they A) made that and made the game more enjoyable for that person. Maps should definitely be on the workshop, since this will make them more visible to the community and allow more people to experience them, but we shouldn't look down on other people's work just because it was easier to make.
EDIT: I also learned last night that right-clicking with the heavies fists out makes him swing his right fist instead of his left. 474 hours and I'm still learning these things.
EDIT: I also learned last night that right-clicking with the heavies fists out makes him swing his right fist instead of his left. 474 hours and I'm still learning these things.
Stuns that remove your ability to attack(Full-range Sandman, Huntsman taunt) merely disable your primary fire button. The Heavy fists secondary fire is not limited by this restriction. Next time Crash tries to nab you like that give him a good whallop in the face.
I didn't even know people got paid for items that they made on the workshop that get picked.
I don't think that we should belittle people just because they made a hat and not a map. Loving the game enough to make something for it, make it look nice, and make it not horribly stand out against the underlying look of the game shows they care about the game. Whoever made the scouts new shirt that just got added is probably tickled pink, every time they sees someone wearing it they know they A) made that and made the game more enjoyable for that person. Maps should definitely be on the workshop, since this will make them more visible to the community and allow more people to experience them, but we shouldn't look down on other people's work just because it was easier to make.
Oh no, don't get me wrong, good for them for getting rewarded for their work. It's just frustrating as a mapper to be looked over for the most part, given the ratio of time to final product between the two hobbies. Wasn't trying to belittle them at all. We've been working on Stoneyridge for well over a year now (to be fair we fizzled for awhile, though) and have a team of 4 people. A talented modeler could pump out a Valve-Quality item in, probably, a few days. Valve themselves seem to favor the items more than the maps, unfortunately, and we just just whining about it a bit.
Not sure how accurate it is, but last I heard a weapon/ hat creator gets 25% of store sales. A Level Designer gets 100% of stamp sales. So that's cool at least.
EDIT: I also learned last night that right-clicking with the heavies fists out makes him swing his right fist instead of his left. 474 hours and I'm still learning these things.
Stuns that remove your ability to attack(Full-range Sandman, Huntsman taunt) merely disable your primary fire button. The Heavy fists secondary fire is not limited by this restriction. Next time Crash tries to nab you like that give him a good whallop in the face.
Ah. We'll be heading through the train station at around 10:30AM on April 4th, departing at 9:30PM, so there is plenty of time. If you're too late though I'm just going to get the damn sammich without you. My sister used to go to the big Art Institute there and I visited when I was pretty young. I went to Pot Bellies and had the greatest sandwich of my life, I have been craving another since then.
If it's a big hassle it's not a big deal, I forget just because people are in "the city" doesn't mean it's anywhere close. Big ass cities, man. Blows my little-town mind.
Also TF2.
Which train station? There's like 50 of them. :rotate:
Oh yeah, I know I come off a bit harsh. Aesthetic items do have their place in the game, and adding a new weapons is largely positive. My only point is that the money vs. effort curve is opposite what would probably be best for the game. If you decided you wanted to be a content creator with no existing skills and based your decision of what to make on how much money you could make off it (taking into account the odds of it making you any money at all) vs. the time taken to do it, you'd probably go straight to a hat, consider a weapon, and only make a map for the love of the craft. But maps are the best thing for the game (in my opinion), weapons important, and hats only really good for shits and giggles.
A tangential thought: a huge part of the problem is the fact that you have to go through Hammer to make a map. And the problem with Hammer, outside of the interface, is that it's a least common denominator between everything that you could possibly make with the Source Engine. If you want to put a sawblade onto your map, it's not as simple as taking a sawblade, putting it on the track, and telling it how fast it's supposed to go back and forth. In Hammer, you have to build it out of base components:
- A prop to act as the model.
- A func_train object which will control the way it goes back and forth.
- Waypoint objects to determine how far it moves.
- A func_damage (or whatever) to cause damage to the players, chopped up to the right shape.
- All the proceeding items have to be bound together using a text editor.
- The back-and-forth motion has to be set up yourself using the event editor.
It's a positively ridiculous amount of effort requiring something akin to programming just to include something whose behavior can be described in a few sentences. Hammer is powerful, to be sure, but a Team Fortress 2 map maker doesn't need that much power. All they need is some Team Fortress objects to drag out of a box and put into play.
Kupi on
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
A tangential thought: a huge part of the problem is the fact that you have to go through Hammer to make a map. And the problem with Hammer, outside of the interface, is that it's a least common denominator between everything that you could possibly make with the Source Engine. If you want to put a sawblade onto your map, it's not as simple as taking a sawblade, putting it on the track, and telling it how fast it's supposed to go back and forth. In Hammer, you have to build it out of base components:
- A prop to act as the model.
- A func_train object which will control the way it goes back and forth.
- Waypoint objects to determine how far it moves.
- A func_damage (or whatever) to cause damage to the players, chopped up to the right shape.
- All the proceeding items have to be bound together using a text editor.
- The back-and-forth motion has to be set up yourself using the event editor.
It's a positively ridiculous amount of effort requiring something akin to programming just to include something whose behavior can be described in a few sentences. Hammer is powerful, to be sure, but a Team Fortress 2 map maker doesn't need that much power. All they need is some Team Fortress objects to drag out of a box and put into play.
All of you read this over and over and then count the saws in Trainsawlaser.
Hammer is a cruel mistress.
Granted you could just use a prefab. Which I did. So I guess it's not that cool.
turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
I kinda wish trainsawlaser was on a server with people who aren't so good so I could experiment with sentry placements easier. I know mini sentry on the opposing teams balcony can work well.
Y'know, I was thinking about the whole maps/Steam Workshop thing, and then I was reminded about this.
I figure that'll be where they test distributing maps, and then will open it up for TF2 afterwards.
That's a neat idea, but knowing what I know about making maps for Source engine games, I cannot imagine how they plan to handle complex stuff like global lighting or payload carts or even control points on a 5cp map.
I bet optimization would be a major pain in the ass too.
So, you can spend countless hours trying to hack together a map, which might eventually get you some recognition and a tip jug, or you can spend much less time making a weapon and play the lottery, or you can spend even less time on a hat and enter a lottery with a higher jackpot. The economic incentives are back-to-front relative to what's good for the game. And that, I think, is why the game's lost a lot of that charm it started out with (besides, of course, simple attrition): the meaningless doodads are more important than the actual game.[/i]
As a guy who has made two popular TF2 maps I wish to thank you for this post.
Posts
It's a very rigidly laid out map so the idiot factor doesn't ruin it too much.. it plays just like it always has.
truly a sad day
a) Play with PA dudes and never see Dustbowl,
b) Play Dustbowl and never see PA dudes.
Pubs don't have leprosy, it won't make you one of them if you stop by for a little while.
Yeah, I can actually do well against pubs every now and again.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
Dang.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
See, that happened to me before, but because I actually pay attention I turned around and got facecabered immediately.
edit: You said something else there Kupi. Then you deleted it.
I liked where it was going.
The blue texture makes it seem gloomier too.
The tragedy of Team Fortress 2's community content creation system is that the return on investment is inversely proportional to the meaningful impact that the end product will have on the game.
Personally, I think that maps are probably the best thing you can add to the game. Certain dynamics are constant, but a change in layout can have a huge impact on what will be required of each class-- I wouldn't go so far as to say that every map in the same play type is a completely different game, but they're certainly vastly different scenarios and require different tactics of players. Plus, adding a new map to the game is totally safe-- if people don't like it, then servers simply won't run it. There's an automatic distribution mechanism in place, which works because the nobody's actually obligated to use that content. The problem is that to make a map, you have to deal with Hammer. Hammer is a bitch of a tool. It's got the same thing that inflicts most anything written by programmers for their own use-- the interface is almost completely incomprehensible barring extensive tutorial from documentation that barely exists through official channels. (No, putting up a wiki doesn't count.) And once you've made your map, you have to extensively debug it both in terms of mechanical issues and the underlying theory of map creation, an effort which requires about 20 players across multiple sessions. And for this, you might get the opportunity to receive stamps.
With weapons, you need an entirely different skillset. However, given that even I managed to hack together a decent-looking butcher knife for the Medic with just a few hours of effort in Blender starting from no prior rendering experience is a testament to how much easier it is to get something working with a weapon. So long as you aren't doing custom animations, it's fairly easy to interface with the existing bones to get your weapon to match. Plus, they've greatly smoothed out the test pipeline for weapons relative to how it used to be. The odds that Valve will add your weapon to the game are a lot slimmer-- after all, adding a new weapon to the game is a major paradigm shift, and "unsafe" compared to maps, since a new weapon affects every game of TF2 after it's released-- but I'd imagine the payoff is a lot higher. People will pay you for your map if they like it. People will pay you for your weapon if they want to get ahead in the game (or just not wait for it to randomly drop-- that's no longer a viable strategy for getting a given weapon quickly with how many weapons exist).
And then we have hats. Hats require even less work than do weapons, firstly because they're generally smaller (and the polycount allowed on a hat is lower) and second because everything I said about animations doesn't apply to hats. Hats have one bone... the "hat on head" bone. Bone weighting isn't exactly super-difficult, but it presents at least one more vector for error in weapons that isn't present in hats. And since hats are the safest of anything Valve could add to the game-- affecting nothing but fanboy respect levels at worst-- you have a much better chance of getting a hat into the game than a weapon. To say nothing of the massive price disparity between the average hat and the average weapon.
So, you can spend countless hours trying to hack together a map, which might eventually get you some recognition and a tip jug, or you can spend much less time making a weapon and play the lottery, or you can spend even less time on a hat and enter a lottery with a higher jackpot. The economic incentives are back-to-front relative to what's good for the game. And that, I think, is why the game's lost a lot of that charm it started out with (besides, of course, simple attrition): the meaningless doodads are more important than the actual game.
Do you see why I didn't want to write all that, Crash? I hope you're happy.
And it would be the most loved baby ever, Bear!
I agree. And I am happy, so suck it.
I think the biggest change they should make is actually promoting map creation and submission. The fact that the workshop doesn't even take maps is probably the biggest offense. That simple change would open up a ton of contribution and visibility for map creators. Sure, badmaps(tm) will end up getting voted up, because people are terrible and suck at liking good things (lol) which is why Orange maps are so popular. But once the Valve-quality filter is applied to the community choices, I would imagine some prime custom maps would be at the top.
But yes, creating a map is probably the most intensive project I have ever been apart of, I couldn't imagine being apart of a small indie team creating an entire game. I really should take the easier route to Valve-money and just sit down and learn to model... But personally, maps are much more rewarding as a creator. I can't imagine someone using or wearing something you created is even nearly as good of a feeling as seeing a full server running around your map and enjoying all the subtle details you put in. That is just awesome.
Seriously, my clipping is the shit.
Just name the time and place, and I'll see if I can do it. I'm actually about 40 miles away from downtown Chicago itself, so depending on the timing it may or may not work.
If it's a big hassle it's not a big deal, I forget just because people are in "the city" doesn't mean it's anywhere close. Big ass cities, man. Blows my little-town mind.
Also TF2.
I don't think that we should belittle people just because they made a hat and not a map. Loving the game enough to make something for it, make it look nice, and make it not horribly stand out against the underlying look of the game shows they care about the game. Whoever made the scouts new shirt that just got added is probably tickled pink, every time they sees someone wearing it they know they A) made that and
EDIT: I also learned last night that right-clicking with the heavies fists out makes him swing his right fist instead of his left. 474 hours and I'm still learning these things.
The items that got added to the game when the store opened? The creators made $50k, each, after the first month.
Let that sink in.
Stuns that remove your ability to attack(Full-range Sandman, Huntsman taunt) merely disable your primary fire button. The Heavy fists secondary fire is not limited by this restriction. Next time Crash tries to nab you like that give him a good whallop in the face.
Oh no, don't get me wrong, good for them for getting rewarded for their work. It's just frustrating as a mapper to be looked over for the most part, given the ratio of time to final product between the two hobbies. Wasn't trying to belittle them at all. We've been working on Stoneyridge for well over a year now (to be fair we fizzled for awhile, though) and have a team of 4 people. A talented modeler could pump out a Valve-Quality item in, probably, a few days. Valve themselves seem to favor the items more than the maps, unfortunately, and we just just whining about it a bit.
Not sure how accurate it is, but last I heard a weapon/ hat creator gets 25% of store sales. A Level Designer gets 100% of stamp sales. So that's cool at least.
2200hrs+ and I'm still learning these things.
I love that place.
Which train station? There's like 50 of them. :rotate:
A tangential thought: a huge part of the problem is the fact that you have to go through Hammer to make a map. And the problem with Hammer, outside of the interface, is that it's a least common denominator between everything that you could possibly make with the Source Engine. If you want to put a sawblade onto your map, it's not as simple as taking a sawblade, putting it on the track, and telling it how fast it's supposed to go back and forth. In Hammer, you have to build it out of base components:
- A prop to act as the model.
- A func_train object which will control the way it goes back and forth.
- Waypoint objects to determine how far it moves.
- A func_damage (or whatever) to cause damage to the players, chopped up to the right shape.
- All the proceeding items have to be bound together using a text editor.
- The back-and-forth motion has to be set up yourself using the event editor.
It's a positively ridiculous amount of effort requiring something akin to programming just to include something whose behavior can be described in a few sentences. Hammer is powerful, to be sure, but a Team Fortress 2 map maker doesn't need that much power. All they need is some Team Fortress objects to drag out of a box and put into play.
All of you read this over and over and then count the saws in Trainsawlaser.
Hammer is a cruel mistress.
Granted you could just use a prefab. Which I did. So I guess it's not that cool.
Nevermind.
Perhaps it's time to crack the thing open and dust it off. :rotate:
Now everyone will know the score.
I figure that'll be where they test distributing maps, and then will open it up for TF2 afterwards.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
I bet optimization would be a major pain in the ass too.