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[Dota 2] Nyx Assassin, Keeper of the Light, and Visage this week, and straight to CM.

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Posts

  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    Yeah I get that they want to preserve gameplay from DOTA in DOTA 2 but it seems they are being incredibly timid in making any sort of change that might affect gameplay at all. I get the sense that the development is being driven by the insular old players who insist that any change that makes it easier to play will ruin the game. Who are convinced that some skill they developed to get around a poor interface is absolutely vital to require of players.

    I'm sincerely hoping that before release Valve will make some of these common-sense changes, put on their Deal With It glasses and wait until everyone realizes the game is still fine.

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  • P10P10 An Idiot With Low IQ Registered User regular
    Yes, Valve hasn't changed anything at all in the new game. It's not like the UI is completely different, orb mechanics entirely reworked, etc. They're just catering to those stodgy old DotA players who completely hate any and all change. Yup. Definitely.

    Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    Not doing this again.

    So lets remember those good old days of terrible, unfun mechanics with the newest wodota top 10!

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  • BadwrongBadwrong Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    Who are convinced that some skill they developed to get around a poor interface is absolutely vital to require of players.

    Do you have any examples of these poor interface things that are currently in Dota2 specifically because they were in WC3 Dota?

    Badwrong on
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  • BiosysBiosys Registered User regular
    what actual gameplay things do people want to change from dota to dota 2?

    i am geniunely curious, i don't know

    is it big stuff like denies, or smaller stuff like minimap runes?

  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    The minimap is on the wrong side.

  • PantomimePantomime Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    I would like if I held down the space bar it would follow my hero, instead of switching between my hero and mid. I also have no clue what KP_7 means (My guess is keypress 7 but where is that). Also when I forget I am controlling the courier and not my hero. This is probably all learning curve though.

    Pantomime on
  • PeewiPeewi Registered User regular
    Pantomime wrote: »
    I would like if I held down the space bar it would follow my hero, instead of switching between my hero and mid. I also have no clue what KP_7 means (My guess is keypress 7 but where is that). Also when I forget I am controlling the courier and not my hero. This is probably all learning curve though.

    Default function for space is view last notification. KP is short for keypad. Why aren't you setting keybindings you want and can remember?

    Switch: SW-6132-4331-5349 || Steam
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    I wish someone would just finally sack up and get rid of last hitting. It's a balls stupid mechanic. Beyond that, specifically in Dota2, I'd probably dump the runes, as they seem like random gameplay distractions to me. I'd also get rid of tangos, because there really isn't a need for two separate kinds of health potions. And I'd remove or heavily modify stealth to be more like it is in TF2. And I'd probably get rid of gold loss on death, though that's a bit stickier because of how carries work in Dota.

    Beyond that, I think they've done, and continue to do, an excellent job with the UI upgrades and hero releases. (Beyond decapitating invoker)

    Dark_Side on
  • 3clipse3clipse I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I wish someone would just finally sack up and get rid of last hitting. It's a balls stupid mechanic. Beyond that, specifically in Dota2, I'd probably dump the runes, as they seem like random gameplay distractions to me. I'd also get rid of tangos, because there really isn't a need for two separate kinds of health potions. And I'd remove or heavily modify stealth to be more like it is in TF2. And I'd probably get rid of gold loss on death, though that's a bit stickier because of how carries work in Dota.

    Beyond that, I think they've done, and continue to do, an excellent job with the UI upgrades and hero releases. (Beyond decapitating invoker)

    Without getting into a huge argument, disagree on all points. And this is from a terrible, terrible dota newbie who can't last hit for shit. I like the complexity and numbers of mechanics. If you want a simpler game, go play LoL. Not a dig at LoL! It is just empirically a simpler, less complicated game.

    Edit: also, Page touched on this, but saying "they should take out blank!" is a waste of time. They are not going to change any core mechanics. If you don't like that, that's okay! Go play other games! But the attitude that Dota 2 (or any other game where people complain about mechanics) has to change because you don't like a mechanic has got to go.

    3clipse on
    drowning in the ever heaving waters of mother Earth's salty tiddy.
  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Badwrong wrote: »
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    Who are convinced that some skill they developed to get around a poor interface is absolutely vital to require of players.

    Do you have any examples of these poor interface things that are currently in Dota2 specifically because they were in WC3 Dota?

    Lack of a rune icon on the minimap when your team has vision of it is probably the best example. It's sort of a no-brainer feature that's conspicuously absent. Again I hope it's because they haven't gotten around to it but my fear is that they really do buy into the idea that adding it would "dumb down the game" or "clutter the minimap" or some other ridiculous rationalization for leaving it the way it is.

    RandomEngy on
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  • PantomimePantomime Registered User regular
    Peewi wrote: »
    Pantomime wrote: »
    I would like if I held down the space bar it would follow my hero, instead of switching between my hero and mid. I also have no clue what KP_7 means (My guess is keypress 7 but where is that). Also when I forget I am controlling the courier and not my hero. This is probably all learning curve though.

    Default function for space is view last notification. KP is short for keypad. Why aren't you setting keybindings you want and can remember?

    I normally dont set bindings until I am very familiar with the game, like "." for the store doesnt make sense, I will set it to "p" for purchase. Now if something was bound to P I would have to question why it is there.

    So I can change the function of space bar?

  • PeewiPeewi Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Yes, you can change the function of the space bar. You can rebind all the keys.

    I most games I just stick with the default controls, but the defaults in Dota 2 aren't great. Items on the numpad is not a thing that should have been carried over from WC3.
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I wish someone would just finally sack up and get rid of last hitting. It's a balls stupid mechanic. Beyond that, specifically in Dota2, I'd probably dump the runes, as they seem like random gameplay distractions to me. I'd also get rid of tangos, because there really isn't a need for two separate kinds of health potions. And I'd remove or heavily modify stealth to be more like it is in TF2. And I'd probably get rid of gold loss on death, though that's a bit stickier because of how carries work in Dota.

    Beyond that, I think they've done, and continue to do, an excellent job with the UI upgrades and hero releases. (Beyond decapitating invoker)

    I'm not quite into the details, but I've heard that Blizzard Dota doesn't have last hitting.

    Peewi on
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  • SkabSkab Registered User regular
    Badwrong wrote: »
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    Who are convinced that some skill they developed to get around a poor interface is absolutely vital to require of players.

    Do you have any examples of these poor interface things that are currently in Dota2 specifically because they were in WC3 Dota?

    Nooo why did you make him bring it up again :(

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  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    Peewi wrote: »
    Yes, you can change the function of the space bar. You can rebind all the keys.

    I most games I just stick with the default controls, but the defaults in Dota 2 aren't great. Items on the numpad is not a thing that should have been carried over from WC3.
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I wish someone would just finally sack up and get rid of last hitting. It's a balls stupid mechanic. Beyond that, specifically in Dota2, I'd probably dump the runes, as they seem like random gameplay distractions to me. I'd also get rid of tangos, because there really isn't a need for two separate kinds of health potions. And I'd remove or heavily modify stealth to be more like it is in TF2. And I'd probably get rid of gold loss on death, though that's a bit stickier because of how carries work in Dota.

    Beyond that, I think they've done, and continue to do, an excellent job with the UI upgrades and hero releases. (Beyond decapitating invoker)

    I'm not quite into the details, but I've heard that Blizzard Dota doesn't have last hitting.


    The Stardock moba didn't have it either. Unfortunately that one crashed and burned on its terrible multiplayer netcode.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    Peewi wrote: »
    Yes, you can change the function of the space bar. You can rebind all the keys.

    I most games I just stick with the default controls, but the defaults in Dota 2 aren't great. Items on the numpad is not a thing that should have been carried over from WC3.
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I wish someone would just finally sack up and get rid of last hitting. It's a balls stupid mechanic. Beyond that, specifically in Dota2, I'd probably dump the runes, as they seem like random gameplay distractions to me. I'd also get rid of tangos, because there really isn't a need for two separate kinds of health potions. And I'd remove or heavily modify stealth to be more like it is in TF2. And I'd probably get rid of gold loss on death, though that's a bit stickier because of how carries work in Dota.

    Beyond that, I think they've done, and continue to do, an excellent job with the UI upgrades and hero releases. (Beyond decapitating invoker)

    I'm not quite into the details, but I've heard that Blizzard Dota doesn't have last hitting.

    This is true. Blizzard DotA will use percentage damage to determine gold given. At least that's what they said at Blizzcon.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Peewi wrote: »
    Yes, you can change the function of the space bar. You can rebind all the keys.

    I most games I just stick with the default controls, but the defaults in Dota 2 aren't great. Items on the numpad is not a thing that should have been carried over from WC3.
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I wish someone would just finally sack up and get rid of last hitting. It's a balls stupid mechanic. Beyond that, specifically in Dota2, I'd probably dump the runes, as they seem like random gameplay distractions to me. I'd also get rid of tangos, because there really isn't a need for two separate kinds of health potions. And I'd remove or heavily modify stealth to be more like it is in TF2. And I'd probably get rid of gold loss on death, though that's a bit stickier because of how carries work in Dota.

    Beyond that, I think they've done, and continue to do, an excellent job with the UI upgrades and hero releases. (Beyond decapitating invoker)

    I'm not quite into the details, but I've heard that Blizzard Dota doesn't have last hitting.


    The Stardock moba didn't have it either. Unfortunately that one crashed and burned on its terrible multiplayer netcode.

    Demigod...such a shame to, it was really fun, and had some unique maps. Was much more personal as well, as it wasn't a 5v5 thing...it was kind of StarCraft meets MOBA.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I wish someone would just finally sack up and get rid of last hitting. It's a balls stupid mechanic. Beyond that, specifically in Dota2, I'd probably dump the runes, as they seem like random gameplay distractions to me. I'd also get rid of tangos, because there really isn't a need for two separate kinds of health potions. And I'd remove or heavily modify stealth to be more like it is in TF2. And I'd probably get rid of gold loss on death, though that's a bit stickier because of how carries work in Dota.

    Beyond that, I think they've done, and continue to do, an excellent job with the UI upgrades and hero releases. (Beyond decapitating invoker)

    Why don't you go and play League of Legends

    I mean, you're more or less describing it as your ideal game

    >Signatures
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  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    alias +centercamera "dota_camera_lock 1"
    alias -centercamera "dota_camera_lock 0"
    bind space +centercamera
    

    "space" can be substituted for any key. HoN players may like to set it to "c".

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    I bound space to "use magic wand". It's my "oh jesus help I'm dying" button.

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  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    @Dark_Side, I hate to agree with Senshi about...well, anything...but he has a point, LoL sounds much more your speed. Only thing it still has that you want gone is last hitting.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • AlwaysNewDepthsAlwaysNewDepths Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I wish someone would just finally sack up and get rid of last hitting. It's a balls stupid mechanic. Beyond that, specifically in Dota2, I'd probably dump the runes, as they seem like random gameplay distractions to me. I'd also get rid of tangos, because there really isn't a need for two separate kinds of health potions. And I'd remove or heavily modify stealth to be more like it is in TF2. And I'd probably get rid of gold loss on death, though that's a bit stickier because of how carries work in Dota.

    Beyond that, I think they've done, and continue to do, an excellent job with the UI upgrades and hero releases. (Beyond decapitating invoker)

    Tangos allow you to recover health while laning when you have like a half or a third of your health missing. Salves are there so you can return to your lane faster when you're low on hp. I really don't get why you would modify stealth. Runes allow your mid to influence the other lanes with more ease.

    Also, commenting on your early post I don't see why people see Valve as a paradigm for gameplay design (multiplayer-wise), the majority of weapons in TF2 are shitty with a few just being straight upgrades rather than sidegrades. Also it's pretty clear they don't really do much testing with their weapons as its pretty common for weapons to get nerfed shortly after release.

    AlwaysNewDepths on
  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    re: Stealth

    In every single game it is a stupid, broken mechanic and I wish developers would stop trying to cram it in their games because stealth will always suck balls.

  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Stealth is fine in dota and has never been an issue . . . ever (except for that 1 time 15 years ago). It's neither too strong nor is it too weak. It's a thing that some heroes can use and a thing that everyone can counter.

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  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    My one issue with stealth is that it disjoints projectiles. I really don't like Riki being able to passively disjoint shit all the time. Otherwise, stealth isn't a big deal.

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  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    Dota stealth is decent because you can buy items to counter it, but it's still not great.

    Stealth in a game like WoW, where there's no way to counter it, that's just outright terrible.

  • nealcmnealcm Alvarian AlvarianRegistered User regular
    doesn't taking damage break stealth in WoW? so you just gotta aoe a little

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  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Senshi wrote: »
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I wish someone would just finally sack up and get rid of last hitting. It's a balls stupid mechanic. Beyond that, specifically in Dota2, I'd probably dump the runes, as they seem like random gameplay distractions to me. I'd also get rid of tangos, because there really isn't a need for two separate kinds of health potions. And I'd remove or heavily modify stealth to be more like it is in TF2. And I'd probably get rid of gold loss on death, though that's a bit stickier because of how carries work in Dota.

    Beyond that, I think they've done, and continue to do, an excellent job with the UI upgrades and hero releases. (Beyond decapitating invoker)

    Why don't you go and play League of Legends

    I mean, you're more or less describing it as your ideal game

    LoL is by no means ideal, it has pretty serious problems, and I happen to like Dota 2. I just think there's a lot of missed opportunity for innovation here, and I think Dota 2 is going to have serious growing pains past the initial release boom. Of course that's my opinion.

    As to stealth.
    It's a stupid mechanic, there's no good way to balance it. A character that incorporate's stealth needs to be able to do high burst damage, or the stealth as an offensive mechanism becomes trivial. As a result of such high damage, and the fact that one can't recognize that the stealthed character is there until they're already damaging you, it becomes a case of having to play passive by the map wide absence of that character. In order to counter that stealth, one needs to spend gold on temp. items, or items that can be lost on death, while still having to buy other offensive and defensive items. OTOH, the stealth player has a built in defensive stat in stealth, and can prioritize pure damage. And doesn't lose anything upon death that anyone else on either team would ordinarily lose either. (Be that gold, death timer, objectives, etc.) It basically stacks the game offensively in favor of the team that has a stealth hero over one that does not.

    Now you might say, "but they always have weak health and are easy to kill". Sure, but they have the option to engage in a fight whenever they choose, and usually that's at a point in the team fight where prioritizing them is either difficult, or impossible. And stealth champs do so much damage you can't afford not to try and kill them. Take Riki for instance. Look at his kit. He has a mana free, defensive stat (again I treat stealth as a defensive stat.) in his ult that makes him invisible. He has a blink that makes him teleport behind you, a passive steroid that crits his back stabs, and AOE silence cloud. Usually, if you're alone, by the time you see him, it's already too late because he's killed you, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it beyond hugging your tower, or hiding at spawn, or taking a significant risk to farm waves alone. It royally sucks to play against a good one. Now yes, you can really hurt him pre-6, and he's pretty dependent on early ganks, but that doesn't make his stealth balanced in my opinion.

    So yes, stealth can be countered, but at great cost to the team to do so, and very little loss (or risk) to the enemy team with the stealth champ.

    Edit: Though I should point out I don't mind resource based stealth like Weaver's as much, its the perma stealth bull I can't stand. And became such an issue with Eve in LoL that they had to royally break her kit to fix it. And she's still nasty to deal with in skilled hands.

    TLDR: Stealth gives you free offensive advantages while the other team has to spend money to specifically counter you.

    Dark_Side on
  • SparvySparvy Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Senshi wrote: »
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I wish someone would just finally sack up and get rid of last hitting. It's a balls stupid mechanic. Beyond that, specifically in Dota2, I'd probably dump the runes, as they seem like random gameplay distractions to me. I'd also get rid of tangos, because there really isn't a need for two separate kinds of health potions. And I'd remove or heavily modify stealth to be more like it is in TF2. And I'd probably get rid of gold loss on death, though that's a bit stickier because of how carries work in Dota.

    Beyond that, I think they've done, and continue to do, an excellent job with the UI upgrades and hero releases. (Beyond decapitating invoker)

    Why don't you go and play League of Legends

    I mean, you're more or less describing it as your ideal game

    LoL is by no means ideal, it has pretty serious problems, and I happen to like Dota 2. I just think there's a lot of missed opportunity for innovation here, and I think Dota 2 is going to have serious growing pains past the initial release boom. Of course that's my opinion.

    As to stealth.
    It's a stupid mechanic, there's no good way to balance it. A character that incorporate's stealth needs to be able to do high burst damage, or the stealth as an offensive mechanism becomes trivial. As a result of such high damage, and the fact that one can't recognize that the stealthed character is there until they're already damaging you, it becomes a case of having to play passive by the map wide absence of that character. In order to counter that stealth, one needs to spend gold on temp. items, or items that can be lost on death, while still having to buy other offensive and defensive items. OTOH, the stealth player has a built in defensive stat in stealth, and can prioritize pure damage. And doesn't lose anything upon death that anyone else on either team would ordinarily lose either. (Be that gold, death timer, objectives, etc.) It basically stacks the game offensively in favor of the team that has a stealth hero over one that does not.

    Now you might say, "but they always have weak health and are easy to kill". Sure, but they have the option to engage in a fight whenever they choose, and usually that's at a point in the team fight where prioritizing them is either difficult, or impossible. And stealth champs do so much damage you can't afford not to try and kill them. Take Riki for instance. Look at his kit. He has a mana free, defensive stat (again I treat stealth as a defensive stat.) in his ult that makes him invisible. He has a blink that makes him teleport behind you, a passive steroid that crits his back stabs, and AOE silence cloud. Usually, if you're alone, by the time you see him, it's already too late because he's killed you, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it beyond hugging your tower or hiding at spawn. And it royally sucks to play against a good one. Now yes, you can really hurt him pre-6, and he's pretty dependent on early ganks, but that doesn't make his stealth balanced in my opinion.

    So yes, stealth can be countered, but at great cost to the team to do so, and very little loss (or risk) to the enemy team with the stealth champ.

    TLDR: Stealth gives you free offensive advantages while the other team has to spend money to specifically counter you.

    I do not understand how anyone who has played against stealth heroes could think any of this is true? It is not a "great cost" to counter, in fact the price is almost trivial for what you get (an almost certain kill if used correctly).

    It is a huge risk, that requires the right team and the right enemy team, to have a carry that relies on stealth.

  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Eh, I disagree, but that's fine. And I think it's handled better in Dota 2 than in LoL, but I still don't like it.

    Dark_Side on
  • ScosglenScosglen Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Not to sort of brush aside your complaints with a "l2p noob", but it's generally regarded as true in Dota that stealth heroes, and Riki in particular, are only effective against teams and players that don't know what they're doing and fail to address him properly.

    Yes, you have to play differently against a Riki than you might normally. Dust and Wards and not wandering off on your own with a MIA Riki are inexpensive considering that they almost completely neuter him if applied aggressively during the early game.

    And then there are characters like Slardar and (ironically) Bounty Hunter who make great counterpicks if you see a Riki pop up on the enemy team.

    Scosglen on
  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    Riki is actually decent even without his stealth. That's just gravy.

    It's also ridiculous to say that there's "no good way to balance it" when in fact it's been perfectly balanced (leaning toward being weaker) in dota for like 6+ years.

    Seriously, complaining about stealth in dota, especially dota 2 where half the stealth heroes aren't even in the game, is on the level of complaining that Huskar and Ursa are imba and should be nerfed.

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  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    That's always the argument; that stealth only works against bad players. And of course it's true to a certain degree. But that doesn't mean it doesn't provide the team with a stealth character an unfair offensive advantage.

    Explain why I should have to spend gold to deal with stealth, when the stealth character gets that ability for free? Or has a map wide passive that forces conservative play whenever they're mia?

  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    do dota2 invites expire after a period of time? I had one in my account yesterday and now its gone. I also cant see the history of where my first invite went. Any ideas?

  • ScosglenScosglen Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    It isn't an "unfair" advantage. The gambit of picking a Riki is that you're picking a paper tiger who is easily countered by a vigilant team and some cheap consumables, and withers easily under any kind of focused damage. He doesn't require that much more attention to address than any other of the game's notorious gankers like Nightstalker, Bloodseeker, Pudge, etc.

    Just like any other ganker that fails to perform early game, they will most likely enjoy a mediocre or poor mid and late game as the carries/teamfighters come online.

    Scosglen on
  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    Stealth is passive and unreliable, and in most cases carries no other benefits.

    A stealth hero who is just running around being invisible is not farming, is not gaining xp, and is in fact not really doing anything.

    A hero weak enough and out of position enough to die to a lone, non-fed stealth hero would be just as dead against any ganking hero. Most of the time a stealth hero will need someone to help them set up the kill, and with wards it should be obvious enough what's going on. If you are not alone with low hp and no mana and grossly out of position then your average stealth hero is not that great of a threat. In most situations the reason they're staying hidden is because if they reveal themselves at the wrong time they will just die. If not, then you may as well have someone initiate on you from the fog. It's the same shit.

    The fact remains that if stealth was actually imbalanced then it would have actually been addressed by now. There's a reason that the only time stealth heroes are picked in competitive play is for their non-stealth skills (except for old NA, but that's a whole different thing).

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  • SparvySparvy Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    That's always the argument; that stealth only works against bad players. And of course it's true to a certain degree. But that doesn't mean it doesn't provide the team with a stealth character an unfair offensive advantage.

    Explain why I should have to spend gold to deal with stealth, when the stealth character gets that ability for free? Or has a map wide passive that forces conservative play whenever they're mia?

    You should do it because it will make you win. Thats about it. Yes someone will have to spend some extra gold that they wouldn't need to spend otherwise and play a little different but on the plus side they will likely win the fucking game.

    A pretty decent tradeoff for that gold.

    Sparvy on
  • P10P10 An Idiot With Low IQ Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    You also have to spend gold (buy a BKB) to deal with stuns. Should we remove stuns, then?

    The tradeoff for stealth is that if the other team spends the money, theycounter it completely. Riki fighting against a team with true sight is a hero without an ultimate. You really don't think that's not a fair tradeoff?

    P10 on
    Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
  • SkabSkab Registered User regular
    Update is out today, a day early.

    Test client updated a day early.

    Clearly something is wrong with the universe.

    steam_sig.png
  • HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    I wish there was a reverse co-op bot mode. Where your teammates are the bots and your enemies are the people.

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