What was that tiny 4 spawn map, it was the space tile I think, lots of rusty metal, one watchtower in the centre. Fuck that map, I don't think I ever won a game on it.
Delta Quadrant
I think the best part of DQ was the ability to warp into the back of the bases. Or the fact that p/t got a safe second (eventually) while zerg had to take the completely exposed one outside the base.
I don't think it would have made much of a difference if there weren't rocks, Zergs don't take the back expansion first on Crevasse or Calm Before the Storm.
I'm don't think you remember how open the DQ natural was
it must suck to be you tanner
my first thought on seeing what was probably nothing more than a typo "i'm dont think"
1) First drone scouts for # of gas. If 1 gas, steal the second after you get your pool down. (make sure his marines are shooting it - stops the 1 scv 2 marine bunker)
2) As soon as your pool finishes, make either 2 or 4 lings. Use 1 to confirm reactor hellions. Hide 1 within sight of his minerals to scout when/if he expands (and/or if he switched the reactor to the rax). If you made 4, hide the other 2 somewhere to scout when you'd like to.
ZvT, because you can't fucking scout between your initial drone and ~9min, and the initial scout is the very definition of useless
I've never felt there's anything coinflippy about ZvT. What are you having trouble scouting for?
Anything? Scout that T's taking two geysers before his barracks is done; figure he's going banshees or really quick factories. NOPE HERE ARE THIRTY STIM MARINES OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL and then you're dead. What the fuck are you supposed to do about that? Sending in an ovie doesn't do much, since if he's going banshees you expect him to be building a bunch of marines anyway, and you expect a reactor on at least one barracks because when he's done with the banshees he's going to swap it onto the starport for medivac production.
ZvT, because you can't fucking scout between your initial drone and ~9min, and the initial scout is the very definition of useless
I've never felt there's anything coinflippy about ZvT. What are you having trouble scouting for?
Anything? Scout that T's taking two geysers before his barracks is done; figure he's going banshees or really quick factories. NOPE HERE ARE THIRTY STIM MARINES OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
post the replay?
0
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
What was that tiny 4 spawn map, it was the space tile I think, lots of rusty metal, one watchtower in the centre. Fuck that map, I don't think I ever won a game on it.
Delta Quadrant
I think the best part of DQ was the ability to warp into the back of the bases. Or the fact that p/t got a safe second (eventually) while zerg had to take the completely exposed one outside the base.
I don't think it would have made much of a difference if there weren't rocks, Zergs don't take the back expansion first on Crevasse or Calm Before the Storm.
I'm don't think you remember how open the DQ natural was
it must suck to be you tanner
my first thought on seeing what was probably nothing more than a typo "i'm dont think"
was
"tanner is drunk"
Fucking editing man
I don't mind that they're changing the 6m1hyg on Daybreak, I just don't understand why they think it's necessary
What was that tiny 4 spawn map, it was the space tile I think, lots of rusty metal, one watchtower in the centre. Fuck that map, I don't think I ever won a game on it.
Delta Quadrant
I think the best part of DQ was the ability to warp into the back of the bases. Or the fact that p/t got a safe second (eventually) while zerg had to take the completely exposed one outside the base.
I don't think it would have made much of a difference if there weren't rocks, Zergs don't take the back expansion first on Crevasse or Calm Before the Storm.
I'm don't think you remember how open the DQ natural was
it must suck to be you tanner
my first thought on seeing what was probably nothing more than a typo "i'm dont think"
was
"tanner is drunk"
Fucking editing man
I don't mind that they're changing the 6m1hyg on Daybreak, I just don't understand why they think it's necessary
Because people on ladder are dumb. I still see people that scout close ground Shattered/Metal/Shakuras.
What was that tiny 4 spawn map, it was the space tile I think, lots of rusty metal, one watchtower in the centre. Fuck that map, I don't think I ever won a game on it.
Delta Quadrant
I think the best part of DQ was the ability to warp into the back of the bases. Or the fact that p/t got a safe second (eventually) while zerg had to take the completely exposed one outside the base.
I don't think it would have made much of a difference if there weren't rocks, Zergs don't take the back expansion first on Crevasse or Calm Before the Storm.
I'm don't think you remember how open the DQ natural was
it must suck to be you tanner
my first thought on seeing what was probably nothing more than a typo "i'm dont think"
was
"tanner is drunk"
Fucking editing man
I don't mind that they're changing the 6m1hyg on Daybreak, I just don't understand why they think it's necessary
Because people on ladder are dumb. I still see people that scout close ground Shattered/Metal/Shakuras.
RIGHT?! I hit masters players who do it, have no idea. You'd think after 2000 games of shakuras plateau, you might realize that no one has ever spawned there.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I just don't understand why it matters that low league players will get confused by smaller size mineral bases.
Either they get confused, look it up, and see that "oh hey thats just a different thing on some maps"
Or they get confused, don't look it up, and remain confused but nobody cares because how the fuck does a 6min/1gas fourth base affect you when you're doing 1rax 4fac builds on 1 base anyway?
ZvT, because you can't fucking scout between your initial drone and ~9min, and the initial scout is the very definition of useless
I've never felt there's anything coinflippy about ZvT. What are you having trouble scouting for?
Anything? Scout that T's taking two geysers before his barracks is done; figure he's going banshees or really quick factories. NOPE HERE ARE THIRTY STIM MARINES OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL and then you're dead. What the fuck are you supposed to do about that? Sending in an ovie doesn't do much, since if he's going banshees you expect him to be building a bunch of marines anyway, and you expect a reactor on at least one barracks because when he's done with the banshees he's going to swap it onto the starport for medivac production.
If a Terran opens two gas before factory and pushes with marines, it's just going to be a really slow or weak push. Even if you don't scout it coming until it leaves his base, you should easily have enough units to defend it at that point.
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I just don't understand why it matters that low league players will get confused by smaller size mineral bases.
Either they get confused, look it up, and see that "oh hey thats just a different thing on some maps"
Or they get confused, don't look it up, and remain confused but nobody cares because how the fuck does a 6min/1gas fourth base affect you when you're doing 1rax 4fac builds on 1 base anyway?
I think it's that players who don't understand the strategic significance of that base will simple never ever take it until there's no where else to go
now personally I'd say fuck those players, but I think that's where blizz is coming from.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited March 2012
I don't understand why people say stuff like "but at low levels people can just do stupid stuff like 2gas into marine rush and i can't scout it and i die, this is stupid"
If they do something retarded like that, its going to be a stupidly weak push because they've done all this stuff that doesn't help the push. If you're playing standard and macroing decently, you will crush the push.
The answer is not to bitch about impossible to scout retarded builds, the answer is to play better yourself.
back when i had an account at silver on NA I used to play Protoss vs the most random shit from Terran players. Double gas into a 5rax attack was totally common. Every game I'd just open 1gate FE and accidentally hold off all kinds of silly stuff because it hit 2-3 minutes later than it could and had 50% less units than it should.
The thing to keep in mind is that standard play doesn't die to pressure builds automatically, if played well. That's why its standard play. Pressure builds are designed to be weaker than all-ins because you build an economy behind them and don't intend to end the game. All-ins are intended to end games, and so they don't invest money into anything but the one attack.
A poorly executed all-in is going to not be very strong, if the player randomly adds other elements to it. This means it ends up only being as strong as a pressure build, if not even that much. You should be able to hold it automatically without extra effort or changing your build. If you can't, it means you're not playing well enough and should fix that.
Dhalphir on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I just don't understand why it matters that low league players will get confused by smaller size mineral bases.
Either they get confused, look it up, and see that "oh hey thats just a different thing on some maps"
Or they get confused, don't look it up, and remain confused but nobody cares because how the fuck does a 6min/1gas fourth base affect you when you're doing 1rax 4fac builds on 1 base anyway?
I think it's that players who don't understand the strategic significance of that base will simple never ever take it until there's no where else to go
now personally I'd say fuck those players, but I think that's where blizz is coming from.
so what? so they don't take the base. how does that affect their games
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I just don't understand why it matters that low league players will get confused by smaller size mineral bases.
Either they get confused, look it up, and see that "oh hey thats just a different thing on some maps"
Or they get confused, don't look it up, and remain confused but nobody cares because how the fuck does a 6min/1gas fourth base affect you when you're doing 1rax 4fac builds on 1 base anyway?
I think it's that players who don't understand the strategic significance of that base will simple never ever take it until there's no where else to go
now personally I'd say fuck those players, but I think that's where blizz is coming from.
so what? so they don't take the base. how does that affect their games
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
a) I play on SEA
b) i'm frequently not on SC2 anyway because i'm watching streams and talking about you behind your back with Seguer
c) i;m only at home from around 6pm and then bedtmie is 11pm
I don't understand why people say stuff like "but at low levels people can just do stupid stuff like 2gas into marine rush and i can't scout it and i die, this is stupid"
If they do something retarded like that, its going to be a stupidly weak push because they've done all this stuff that doesn't help the push. If you're playing standard and macroing decently, you will crush the push.
The answer is not to bitch about impossible to scout retarded builds, the answer is to play better yourself.
back when i had an account at silver on NA I used to play Protoss vs the most random shit from Terran players. Double gas into a 5rax attack was totally common. Every game I'd just open 1gate FE and accidentally hold off all kinds of silly stuff because it hit 2-3 minutes later than it could and had 50% less units than it should.
The thing to keep in mind is that standard play doesn't die to pressure builds automatically, if played well. That's why its standard play. Pressure builds are designed to be weaker than all-ins because you build an economy behind them and don't intend to end the game. All-ins are intended to end games, and so they don't invest money into anything but the one attack.
A poorly executed all-in is going to not be very strong, if the player randomly adds other elements to it. This means it ends up only being as strong as a pressure build, if not even that much. You should be able to hold it automatically without extra effort or changing your build. If you can't, it means you're not playing well enough and should fix that.
Terran has three 8 minute pushes which will crush you if not prepared, and they all require different mutually-exclusive shit not to die. You need ling/bane against stim marine/marauder pushes, roaches/spines against hellions, and at least four queens and roughly four spores for banshees. There is no standardized safe build that will protect me from all three.
a) I play on SEA
b) i'm frequently not on SC2 anyway because i'm watching streams and talking about you behind your back with Seguer
c) i;m only at home from around 6pm and then bedtmie is 11pm
I check SEA at least once when I am online. The 6pm bit makes a bit more sense though.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
If you poke up the ramp with your first ling and see a factory, you can rule out stim marine/marauder, which means you don't need banelings.
From there you can make four queens and a spine to protect from the hellions. If you see a heavier commitment to hellions with lings around the map (4+) you can throw down a raoch warren just in case.
I don't know of any way to confirm 2port banshee for sure, but I have to assume that there are ways of determining that too - on most maps a sacrificial overlord will always be able to check gases at the main at the very least - and a reactor hellion macro build won't get a second gas before landing the expo CC.
I don't understand why people say stuff like "but at low levels people can just do stupid stuff like 2gas into marine rush and i can't scout it and i die, this is stupid"
If they do something retarded like that, its going to be a stupidly weak push because they've done all this stuff that doesn't help the push. If you're playing standard and macroing decently, you will crush the push.
The answer is not to bitch about impossible to scout retarded builds, the answer is to play better yourself.
back when i had an account at silver on NA I used to play Protoss vs the most random shit from Terran players. Double gas into a 5rax attack was totally common. Every game I'd just open 1gate FE and accidentally hold off all kinds of silly stuff because it hit 2-3 minutes later than it could and had 50% less units than it should.
The thing to keep in mind is that standard play doesn't die to pressure builds automatically, if played well. That's why its standard play. Pressure builds are designed to be weaker than all-ins because you build an economy behind them and don't intend to end the game. All-ins are intended to end games, and so they don't invest money into anything but the one attack.
A poorly executed all-in is going to not be very strong, if the player randomly adds other elements to it. This means it ends up only being as strong as a pressure build, if not even that much. You should be able to hold it automatically without extra effort or changing your build. If you can't, it means you're not playing well enough and should fix that.
Terran has three 8 minute pushes which will crush you if not prepared, and they all require different mutually-exclusive shit not to die. You need ling/bane against stim marine/marauder pushes, roaches/spines against hellions, and at least four queens and roughly four spores for banshees. There is no standardized safe build that will protect me from all three.
Roach/Ling/Spines and an Evo chamber in case he goes Banshees?
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
hahaha, first game I've played since friday. scout 3 hatch from a zergie but don't really prep for the aggression that's coming. run up my ramp after lifting my cc and tell the guy I fucked up.
he waits long enough to finish me off that I get siege research done and then he just keeps trying to end the game the same way... and I won. I couldn't believe it. there's so many ways he can cement that win and he did none of em. yay.
If you poke up the ramp with your first ling and see a factory, you can rule out stim marine/marauder, which means you don't need banelings.
Which works if they build the fac in sight range of the ramp, and not so well otherwise. You can try to sneak the overlord in but it's not hard to pick off.
Meanwhile T just drops a scan at, what, 4-5min, and knows exactly what I'm doing with no way to negate it.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
If you poke up the ramp with your first ling and see a factory, you can rule out stim marine/marauder, which means you don't need banelings.
Which works if they build the fac in sight range of the ramp, and not so well otherwise. You can try to sneak the overlord in but it's not hard to pick off.
Meanwhile T just drops a scan at, what, 4-5min, and knows exactly what I'm doing with no way to negate it.
you could put buildings/gas at your nat. even your lair, whenever that comes.
the fac has to be near the ramp if they're reactor hellion-ing. if it isn't, the rax has to lift up and go far or they haven't walled off.
If you poke up the ramp with your first ling and see a factory, you can rule out stim marine/marauder, which means you don't need banelings.
Which works if they build the fac in sight range of the ramp, and not so well otherwise. You can try to sneak the overlord in but it's not hard to pick off.
Meanwhile T just drops a scan at, what, 4-5min, and knows exactly what I'm doing with no way to negate it.
replays
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
If you poke up the ramp with your first ling and see a factory, you can rule out stim marine/marauder, which means you don't need banelings.
Which works if they build the fac in sight range of the ramp, and not so well otherwise. You can try to sneak the overlord in but it's not hard to pick off.
Meanwhile T just drops a scan at, what, 4-5min, and knows exactly what I'm doing with no way to negate it.
A scan at 4-5 mins costs Terran dearly. I'm talking a minute later on his CC if he does that. If you see a scan over your base you should be glad.
regarding the factory
a) A Terran should always build it at the ramp. he needs to, if he wants to put a reactor on it in a timely fashion.
Even if he doesn't, if the barracks has no addon on it, its not a marine marauder timing. or if it is, stim will be stupidly late and thus the push later.
If you poke up at 4mins with your ling, that is the time when a factory will be about to finish (approximately). If you see a reactor on the barracks and no factory, it could be hellions or it could be a reactor expand. Your response is the same either way - drop a spine and drone hard while keeping a ling outside his base in case its a reactor expand and he plans to push with some marines.
If there ISN'T a reactor on the barracks and there is at least 4 marines, then it is neither reactor hellion nor marine/marauder stim timing, which means its a banshee all-in, assuming he has gas. Of course, you might say that he could build the reactor on the factory directly instead of building it on the barracks while the factory is building. If he does that, his hellions will be stupidly late.
Basically the more that your opponent deviates from "optimal" in executing his build, the less behind you are if you have to respond suboptimally.
If you saw he had gas with your scouting drone, and then poked up and saw a barracks, with no addon, with five marines and nothing else, then just throw down a spine, extra queens, and a couple of spores. If he's going for reactor hellions, its going to be late due to not building the reactor with his barracks, if he's going for a stim timing, he'll have a late stim due to no addon, and if he's ging for 2port banshee, extra queens and a pair of spores should hold it.
I guess the core thing I'm trying to say is that if your opponent is deviating from an optimal build and making it difficult to scout exactly what he's doing, that means its totally okay to respond in a non-optimal way by playing overly safe.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Anyway, I guess I'll echo what the others have said. Post some replays. I bet Tanner can take a look and spot several scouting opportunities that you missed.
Posts
So sick of this goddamn coinflip bullshit
Post replay? What MU do you think is coinflippy?
it must suck to be you tanner
my first thought on seeing what was probably nothing more than a typo "i'm dont think"
was
"tanner is drunk"
ZvT, because you can't fucking scout between your initial drone and ~9min, and the initial scout is the very definition of useless
I've never felt there's anything coinflippy about ZvT. What are you having trouble scouting for?
2) As soon as your pool finishes, make either 2 or 4 lings. Use 1 to confirm reactor hellions. Hide 1 within sight of his minerals to scout when/if he expands (and/or if he switched the reactor to the rax). If you made 4, hide the other 2 somewhere to scout when you'd like to.
3) You should have an OL to scout for mech.
Anything? Scout that T's taking two geysers before his barracks is done; figure he's going banshees or really quick factories. NOPE HERE ARE THIRTY STIM MARINES OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL and then you're dead. What the fuck are you supposed to do about that? Sending in an ovie doesn't do much, since if he's going banshees you expect him to be building a bunch of marines anyway, and you expect a reactor on at least one barracks because when he's done with the banshees he's going to swap it onto the starport for medivac production.
post the replay?
Fucking editing man
I don't mind that they're changing the 6m1hyg on Daybreak, I just don't understand why they think it's necessary
Because people on ladder are dumb. I still see people that scout close ground Shattered/Metal/Shakuras.
played 10 games. Went 2-8. Many losses were close.
I just can't execute builds for some reason. I keep forgetting little things like gas or big things like my roach warren, lol
fuck man
RIGHT?! I hit masters players who do it, have no idea. You'd think after 2000 games of shakuras plateau, you might realize that no one has ever spawned there.
Either they get confused, look it up, and see that "oh hey thats just a different thing on some maps"
Or they get confused, don't look it up, and remain confused but nobody cares because how the fuck does a 6min/1gas fourth base affect you when you're doing 1rax 4fac builds on 1 base anyway?
If a Terran opens two gas before factory and pushes with marines, it's just going to be a really slow or weak push. Even if you don't scout it coming until it leaves his base, you should easily have enough units to defend it at that point.
I think it's that players who don't understand the strategic significance of that base will simple never ever take it until there's no where else to go
now personally I'd say fuck those players, but I think that's where blizz is coming from.
If they do something retarded like that, its going to be a stupidly weak push because they've done all this stuff that doesn't help the push. If you're playing standard and macroing decently, you will crush the push.
The answer is not to bitch about impossible to scout retarded builds, the answer is to play better yourself.
back when i had an account at silver on NA I used to play Protoss vs the most random shit from Terran players. Double gas into a 5rax attack was totally common. Every game I'd just open 1gate FE and accidentally hold off all kinds of silly stuff because it hit 2-3 minutes later than it could and had 50% less units than it should.
The thing to keep in mind is that standard play doesn't die to pressure builds automatically, if played well. That's why its standard play. Pressure builds are designed to be weaker than all-ins because you build an economy behind them and don't intend to end the game. All-ins are intended to end games, and so they don't invest money into anything but the one attack.
A poorly executed all-in is going to not be very strong, if the player randomly adds other elements to it. This means it ends up only being as strong as a pressure build, if not even that much. You should be able to hold it automatically without extra effort or changing your build. If you can't, it means you're not playing well enough and should fix that.
so what? so they don't take the base. how does that affect their games
well you see
/runs away
You go from 240 gas/min for 6 workers to 180 gas/min for 3 workers.
b) i'm frequently not on SC2 anyway because i'm watching streams and talking about you behind your back with Seguer
c) i;m only at home from around 6pm and then bedtmie is 11pm
Terran has three 8 minute pushes which will crush you if not prepared, and they all require different mutually-exclusive shit not to die. You need ling/bane against stim marine/marauder pushes, roaches/spines against hellions, and at least four queens and roughly four spores for banshees. There is no standardized safe build that will protect me from all three.
I check SEA at least once when I am online. The 6pm bit makes a bit more sense though.
From there you can make four queens and a spine to protect from the hellions. If you see a heavier commitment to hellions with lings around the map (4+) you can throw down a raoch warren just in case.
I don't know of any way to confirm 2port banshee for sure, but I have to assume that there are ways of determining that too - on most maps a sacrificial overlord will always be able to check gases at the main at the very least - and a reactor hellion macro build won't get a second gas before landing the expo CC.
Roach/Ling/Spines and an Evo chamber in case he goes Banshees?
he waits long enough to finish me off that I get siege research done and then he just keeps trying to end the game the same way... and I won. I couldn't believe it. there's so many ways he can cement that win and he did none of em. yay.
but wow I played badly.
Which works if they build the fac in sight range of the ramp, and not so well otherwise. You can try to sneak the overlord in but it's not hard to pick off.
Meanwhile T just drops a scan at, what, 4-5min, and knows exactly what I'm doing with no way to negate it.
you could put buildings/gas at your nat. even your lair, whenever that comes.
the fac has to be near the ramp if they're reactor hellion-ing. if it isn't, the rax has to lift up and go far or they haven't walled off.
But I just won a game where I realised that it's such a tight race between the players that it is actually a little exciting! :O
replays
A scan at 4-5 mins costs Terran dearly. I'm talking a minute later on his CC if he does that. If you see a scan over your base you should be glad.
regarding the factory
a) A Terran should always build it at the ramp. he needs to, if he wants to put a reactor on it in a timely fashion.
Even if he doesn't, if the barracks has no addon on it, its not a marine marauder timing. or if it is, stim will be stupidly late and thus the push later.
If you poke up at 4mins with your ling, that is the time when a factory will be about to finish (approximately). If you see a reactor on the barracks and no factory, it could be hellions or it could be a reactor expand. Your response is the same either way - drop a spine and drone hard while keeping a ling outside his base in case its a reactor expand and he plans to push with some marines.
If there ISN'T a reactor on the barracks and there is at least 4 marines, then it is neither reactor hellion nor marine/marauder stim timing, which means its a banshee all-in, assuming he has gas. Of course, you might say that he could build the reactor on the factory directly instead of building it on the barracks while the factory is building. If he does that, his hellions will be stupidly late.
Basically the more that your opponent deviates from "optimal" in executing his build, the less behind you are if you have to respond suboptimally.
If you saw he had gas with your scouting drone, and then poked up and saw a barracks, with no addon, with five marines and nothing else, then just throw down a spine, extra queens, and a couple of spores. If he's going for reactor hellions, its going to be late due to not building the reactor with his barracks, if he's going for a stim timing, he'll have a late stim due to no addon, and if he's ging for 2port banshee, extra queens and a pair of spores should hold it.
I guess the core thing I'm trying to say is that if your opponent is deviating from an optimal build and making it difficult to scout exactly what he's doing, that means its totally okay to respond in a non-optimal way by playing overly safe.
http://drop.sc/146437
(checks my base through fog of war, builds pylon to cannon my 3rd without seeing it, heads straight to the proxy hatch).
Ahahahaha what an asshole
Don't forget splitting his void rays to attack your scouting overlords!
So you'll report this guy? Is there some publicly viewable list where we can see banned players to gloat over...?
there's no list, though, unfortunately