My only opinion on this whole argument is that "bad design decision," as a phrase, is equivalent to saying "your opinion is wrong" and makes about as much sense.
Also that it is an entirely irrelevant discussion.
I am arguing that the functionality is bad design. I use logic and examples to back this statement up. What is so hard about this concept?
RandomEngy on
Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
Uh, it's not RangomEngy's responsibility to point out to you what's an opinion and what's objective fact. That's something you're going to have to do with common sense.
Debate & Discourse lol
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
i don't know it is just confusing to me the way you so adamantly believe that your opinion is correct though
i mean i guess that is what makes it an opinion? but somehow, at some point, after we've had this argument multiple times in multiple threads, i figure you would just drop it because "well i don't need to convince everyone that i'm right" like most opinions
it just seems tiring, on your end, to express your opinion so vehemently. if you think the game would be better with rune icons, sure! just seems like a waste of time trying to convince people on the internet that it's right
like the others have said, try it out on the dev forums. i know that it probably would result in a lot of shit from a lot of stereotypical dota players, but i don't think arguing about it here is going to do much
i don't know it is just confusing to me the way you so adamantly believe that your opinion is correct though
i mean i guess that is what makes it an opinion? but somehow, at some point, after we've had this argument multiple times in multiple threads, i figure you would just drop it because "well i don't need to convince everyone that i'm right" like most opinions
it just seems tiring, on your end, to express your opinion so vehemently. if you think the game would be better with rune icons, sure! just seems like a waste of time trying to convince people on the internet that it's right
like the others have said, try it out on the dev forums. i know that it probably would result in a lot of shit from a lot of stereotypical dota players, but i don't think arguing about it here is going to do much
For the third time: I did post it on the dev forums. I can only hope the endless stream of insipid "-1 bad idea" posts keeps it at the top long enough for Valve to take notice of it and think about it objectively.
As for talking about it here, basically every post of mine on it has been defending the idea from attacks from other posters. I like a good argument, and I like defending good ideas. And I don't think discussion about a feature in DOTA 2 is really out of place in a thread dedicated to talking about DOTA 2.
Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
Ok so I'm having trouble with my courier script, I thought I changed the ability executes to account for everything, but apparently the ability number for secret shop is different than the order in which it appears in the ui now. If I want to tell it to grab my stuff, engage the speed boost bring it to me, and then return to base, what order are the ability numbers now?
übergeek on
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
I go GDFR to grab shit from the stash, deliver to me, and speedboost, with "G" being my courier hotkey.
veil of discord is really situational and ugly - the heroes who it would be good on (SK, Earthshaker, etc) have a hard time landing good Veil of Discords before dealing most of their damage
people hate vlads even though it's really strong (aura items are really good in general). even without melee heroes on your team, vlads can be worth it for a support to carry late game because of the armor and +% base damage.
same thing with AC and Shivas. ridiculously strong items but people almost never get them.
rod of atos is really good but it's new - so people don't understand who it's good on. it's pretty good for almost anyone who would get a sheepstick - although it's much better suited to countering enemy melee heroes.
never see pubs get ghost scepters to counter phys damage, even though it's a godlike item. no one ever gets hotd -> satanic on carry, even though ancient stacking is really strong. never see skadis, never see mjollnirs.
never see refresher, but that's for a good reason.
I love AC and ghost scepter. But shivas? if I'm going to invest in a mystic staff I'll 99.999% of the time go kuldra. Why get shivas? likewise hotd-->satanic I was under the impression lifesteal was a crappy orb. but maybe thats just in HoN, which is more midgame oriented.
Shivas is a fine item. EHP > HP, and late game armour = more ehp against hard carries. Plus it has 2 slows. It's hard to farm, but as a luxury it's a good item.
Satanic is good for heroes who don't have an orb of their own and do a lot of right clicking. Life steal is fine orb to have in fights late game and is pretty much required for some heroes to not be totally useless.
Invoker is a really strong hero, but still has to make decisions about how useful he's going to be. If he goes for offensive power then he's super fragile, if he goes for escapes and such then he can't do much outside of team fights. Don't be obvious, don't wander around alone if you don't know where he is.
You guys will love the way Dazzle interacts with illusion heroes, especially melee ones. It's hilarious and brutal at the same time. Dazzle + Naga is great fun.
Radiance works on all illusions for everyone. It's why sometimes Morph is used as a soft-counter to radiance heroes because he can just replicate them and get his own radiance carrier.
This is how illusions work in dota:
Unless otherwise stated, they take extra damage from all sources (usually x2 or x3, sometimes x4) which is why they're countered by aoe spells, even though they get the hero's 25% spell resistance (and in the case of Pudge or AM, their passive spell resistance).
They only take stats from the hero, not bonus damage. The numbers shown on the illusion's ui are there to make it less obvious which is the real hero. They do get straight hp and mana from items, though. This entire thing is simplified in dota 2: the white damage on the left is the hero's base damage + stats, the green damage on the right is their flat damage bonuses from items. Illusions only do the base damage, never the bonus damage.
They get most auras, and radiance damage is an aura. However, they can only benefit from a few auras, even if they're carrying them. An illusion with a +armour aura will give that aura to units around it, but will not get the bonus itself. They also get true sight if the main hero is carrying a gem.
The only orb they get is melee mana burn. This is why most illusion heroes get a diffusal blade, with the notable exception of Terror Blade since his illusions are ranged (which is why he gets skadi, because he can slow with his main attack and allow the illusions to get more hits in, and skadi gives raw stats instead of damage). Illusions can crit, but the numbers shown are wrong (in order to hide the main hero).
Further to the stats thing, illusions do not get bonus armour from items, only from their agi stat, which reduces their ehp even more. They don't get any hp regen, either. The only other passive they get besides crit is evasion.
Now for some illusion trivia!
A while ago it was very common for Bloodseeker to rush a manta. Why? Because of the way blood bath worked. A Bloodseeker could get into a fight and when he was at about half health or lower he could pop the manta and then deny his own illusions, giving him an instant full heal.
In dota 1 illusions with bash will do what is called a phantom bash, where the bash animation is shown even though the bash effect doesn't work. People did some dumb things because of it.
Most of the time when a hero creates illusions it does a phase out while the illusions are popped. This makes it less obvious which hero is the real one, but also adds another benefit: when a hero is phasing they are completely invulnerable. When timed properly an illusion phase can dodge any attack, even aoes and stuns. Manta used to have a very long phase time, but it was eventually nerfed.
For added confusion, some illusion heroes were given phantom casts. This is most prominent on Naga and Phantom Lancer. When Naga casts her net and Phantom Lnacer casts throws his spear all illusions in range will also throw a net or spear at the target, even though the original is the only one that has an effect.
Shiva's Guard is awesome. The amount of durability it grants you is superb. I'd almost always rate it higher than something like Heart of Tarrasque unless you're a strength hero with some sort of steroid. It's my favorite Luxury item to rush to on Dark Seer. Between the durability and the incredible slow it's a great way to stop people from just kiting around your images.
To add a little to Page's little trivia,
Manta's little phase period is quite useful for dropping debuffs as well. Had an Anti-mage today whom was silenced by Drow. Popped his Manta Style and broke the silence, allowing his escape. Some buffs that are actually nice can go away too. I'm fairly sure I've lost Double Damage or some other similar rune effect due to Manta Style.
Does a bottled rune illusion hold the same properties? Perhaps that rune is not the worst if bottled after all...
Not to diminish Page's post, but I learned everything I knew about Illusions here on Dota2 Wiki.
I really hope they are developing a system for ladder progression which goes 'hey player who is winning ~50% of your games but playing good in all them, you should rise in MMR faster than those players who also win ~50% of their games but are always shat". Even if you skew those percentages from 50 a bit, as they would be (55/45 etc), expediting the immense grind to get out of the MMR range where players are like 'afk first 5 minutes of game reading hero lore' would be nice.
But how do you automate player performance metrics? Will it not encourage certain tendencies and people playing passively to control kd score or afk farming a certain gpm then hiding in base to not accrue deaths abloobloo, nope just do it.
I mean these games need it beyond anything else to improve the lonely casual player's experience, but it is seldom even mentioned. Even if you are accruing a secondary resource like hats faster to barter your way up the ranks I don't care, there are ways to make it work.
I'd even take an MVP (and LeastVP) vote at the end of the game for each team, it would also encourage people to exercise better behaviour, since people would rather give a cordial support some award rather than a frothing rude carry. It would have to only proc outside of team stacks, or maybe only in the lower echelons of MMR.
Whatever you do If you remove it from the highest level of the ladder is still retains competitive integrity since honestly the best level of players do not have to act nicely to one another, or at least shouldn't receive competitive penalty for it.
It is not like there isn't precedent for outside systems influencing player status already with their happy point system which people sit in dark chat channels trading off anyways. Then there is the planned live coaching features as well which were to give some benefit.
You ignored all of them and focused on a few words
You did this first, which was when I said I'm done taking your argument serious. If you just stated your ideas and left it at that, then no one would be feeling salty. Instead you have been saying "this is how it should be, everyone else is wrong".
Guys this performance meter thing is killing me. I know I'm bad, but seeing my Windrunner just a shade under three full bars is distressing for reasons I can't quite identify.
On the upside, I'm getting into a few more medium skill games and even on wins/losses again.
I really hope they are developing a system for ladder progression which goes 'hey player who is winning ~50% of your games but playing good in all them, you should rise in MMR faster than those players who also win ~50% of their games but are always shat". Even if you skew those percentages from 50 a bit, as they would be (55/45 etc), expediting the immense grind to get out of the MMR range where players are like 'afk first 5 minutes of game reading hero lore' would be nice.
This isn't needed because MMR hell does not exist. If you're significantly better than your MMR then you'll win more than 50% of your games and if you aren't then you won't. The system self balances by definition and if I'm not mistaken Valve allows you to specify a skill level to start anyway.
Guys this performance meter thing is killing me. I know I'm bad, but seeing my Windrunner just a shade under three full bars is distressing for reasons I can't quite identify.
On the upside, I'm getting into a few more medium skill games and even on wins/losses again.
I love it.
My Vengeful Spirit is just a hair under 4 bars now.
I played like my second game of this last night. It's been such a long time since I played LoL that I think I can get comfortable with the camera now.
Next up I have to figure out that fucking store. Drag the item? That did something. Right click? Nope. Wait, I heard a noise. Did I buy it? Why isn't in my inventory? Fuck.
I play Windrunner because I was a Lux player because both are cheerful, fully clothed females and I miss my giant LAZOR.
I really hope they are developing a system for ladder progression which goes 'hey player who is winning ~50% of your games but playing good in all them, you should rise in MMR faster than those players who also win ~50% of their games but are always shat". Even if you skew those percentages from 50 a bit, as they would be (55/45 etc), expediting the immense grind to get out of the MMR range where players are like 'afk first 5 minutes of game reading hero lore' would be nice.
This isn't needed because MMR hell does not exist. If you're significantly better than your MMR then you'll win more than 50% of your games and if you aren't then you won't. The system self balances by definition and if I'm not mistaken Valve allows you to specify a skill level to start anyway.
In every game where there is a rank or point system this argument comes out. Yes there is a hell in rank systems that use crazypoints or whatever you want to call the metric. You will get dropped into games where how well you play is incidental to whether or not you win, UNLESS you are willing to play a semi-carry and solo mid. You will not support, hard carry or initiate your way out of the abyss. It's been true in HoN and LoL and it will be true here. Most of the time people who have friends to play with never experience it, because it's one thing to lose close fights, it's another to lose because you have someone from planet Shitcock ruining your game.
Here's the thing, a lot of people who play these games are from planet Shitcock, so you better get a friend or two or not bother playing.
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
That feel when I'm almost the "best" Leshrac in my skill bracket, and my Zeus is not far behind
pretty sure the bars just go up as you play the hero to make you feel better about yourself and it has little to nothing to do with your performance or skill
(play 1 game as a hero, do awful, you'll get 2 bars (average) anyway)
Isn't two bars the starting point? Having two bars means "Yeah, this guy has played this hero" not "This guy is average with this hero". 3/5 is p. much the definition of average! I've slowly inched up to 3, and actually dropped below 3 with my WR after a game I played even worse than normal :P
3DS: 2234-8122-8398 | Battle.net (EU): Ladi#2485
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
You can go below 2 bars
I know this because I am shit with Invoker and this is reflected in the diminutive size of my bar
So let's say I am dumb enough to try and solo queue. What are the best heroes for going it alone and hoping that your team doesn't feed?
Queen of Pain, Priestess of the Moon, basically any ranged solo mid semi-carry who can dominate their lane and then take over the game by ganking sidelanes, never dyin, and getting big. Those two also have blinks for dead-easy rune control and escapes.
I personally am a big fan of bloodseeker and spiritbreaker solo mid, but thats just me, they're not particularly good heroes, I'm just less shitty with them than I am with other heroes.
valiance on
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
The best thing you can do in this game is dual-queue with a friend at roughly the same skill level as your own and then just pick the enemy team apart OR lose horribly but have a laugh about it.
Solo queuing ain't so bad though. As long as you manage to avoid the BR and the RUS
So got this game the other day and been trying to brush up on my skills in bot matches. Would love to play with some PA people but be warned I don't know much about DotA when it comes to build orders and stuff. If anyone wants to play I'll be on after 8pm EST.
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
The only thing bot games teach you is the feeling of frustration you get when your team is fucking retarded and you're facing an enemy that is uncannily coordinated
Posts
I am arguing that the functionality is bad design. I use logic and examples to back this statement up. What is so hard about this concept?
Debate & Discourse lol
nobody play with him ever
just don't
i mean i guess that is what makes it an opinion? but somehow, at some point, after we've had this argument multiple times in multiple threads, i figure you would just drop it because "well i don't need to convince everyone that i'm right" like most opinions
it just seems tiring, on your end, to express your opinion so vehemently. if you think the game would be better with rune icons, sure! just seems like a waste of time trying to convince people on the internet that it's right
like the others have said, try it out on the dev forums. i know that it probably would result in a lot of shit from a lot of stereotypical dota players, but i don't think arguing about it here is going to do much
An option to make Windrunner take that fucking nose stud out.
Sometimes I Stream Games: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/italax-plays-video-games
a thousand times yes
For the third time: I did post it on the dev forums. I can only hope the endless stream of insipid "-1 bad idea" posts keeps it at the top long enough for Valve to take notice of it and think about it objectively.
As for talking about it here, basically every post of mine on it has been defending the idea from attacks from other posters. I like a good argument, and I like defending good ideas. And I don't think discussion about a feature in DOTA 2 is really out of place in a thread dedicated to talking about DOTA 2.
So Extra Ability 1, Extra Ability 2, Ultimate?
I love AC and ghost scepter. But shivas? if I'm going to invest in a mystic staff I'll 99.999% of the time go kuldra. Why get shivas? likewise hotd-->satanic I was under the impression lifesteal was a crappy orb. but maybe thats just in HoN, which is more midgame oriented.
also, serious question: how is invoker fair?
Satanic is good for heroes who don't have an orb of their own and do a lot of right clicking. Life steal is fine orb to have in fights late game and is pretty much required for some heroes to not be totally useless.
Invoker is a really strong hero, but still has to make decisions about how useful he's going to be. If he goes for offensive power then he's super fragile, if he goes for escapes and such then he can't do much outside of team fights. Don't be obvious, don't wander around alone if you don't know where he is.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
they reworked all the orbs in hon and made pretty much all the non-lifesteal orbs better
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
Is there any official word yet from Valve regarding whether or not DoTA 2 will be free to play after the beta?
I've been offered a beta key, but I don't want to take it if the game is unlikely to free to play when the beta closes.
And going solo lane with Lone Druid is the best fucking thing!
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/542923341416854530/8946F8366C4F70323FC098D6CC45958D89EAF81F/
(It was me vs Pugna and CM, of course the teammates dropped in from time to time)
This is how illusions work in dota:
Unless otherwise stated, they take extra damage from all sources (usually x2 or x3, sometimes x4) which is why they're countered by aoe spells, even though they get the hero's 25% spell resistance (and in the case of Pudge or AM, their passive spell resistance).
They only take stats from the hero, not bonus damage. The numbers shown on the illusion's ui are there to make it less obvious which is the real hero. They do get straight hp and mana from items, though. This entire thing is simplified in dota 2: the white damage on the left is the hero's base damage + stats, the green damage on the right is their flat damage bonuses from items. Illusions only do the base damage, never the bonus damage.
They get most auras, and radiance damage is an aura. However, they can only benefit from a few auras, even if they're carrying them. An illusion with a +armour aura will give that aura to units around it, but will not get the bonus itself. They also get true sight if the main hero is carrying a gem.
The only orb they get is melee mana burn. This is why most illusion heroes get a diffusal blade, with the notable exception of Terror Blade since his illusions are ranged (which is why he gets skadi, because he can slow with his main attack and allow the illusions to get more hits in, and skadi gives raw stats instead of damage). Illusions can crit, but the numbers shown are wrong (in order to hide the main hero).
Further to the stats thing, illusions do not get bonus armour from items, only from their agi stat, which reduces their ehp even more. They don't get any hp regen, either. The only other passive they get besides crit is evasion.
Now for some illusion trivia!
A while ago it was very common for Bloodseeker to rush a manta. Why? Because of the way blood bath worked. A Bloodseeker could get into a fight and when he was at about half health or lower he could pop the manta and then deny his own illusions, giving him an instant full heal.
In dota 1 illusions with bash will do what is called a phantom bash, where the bash animation is shown even though the bash effect doesn't work. People did some dumb things because of it.
Most of the time when a hero creates illusions it does a phase out while the illusions are popped. This makes it less obvious which hero is the real one, but also adds another benefit: when a hero is phasing they are completely invulnerable. When timed properly an illusion phase can dodge any attack, even aoes and stuns. Manta used to have a very long phase time, but it was eventually nerfed.
For added confusion, some illusion heroes were given phantom casts. This is most prominent on Naga and Phantom Lancer. When Naga casts her net and Phantom Lnacer casts throws his spear all illusions in range will also throw a net or spear at the target, even though the original is the only one that has an effect.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
To add a little to Page's little trivia,
Manta's little phase period is quite useful for dropping debuffs as well. Had an Anti-mage today whom was silenced by Drow. Popped his Manta Style and broke the silence, allowing his escape. Some buffs that are actually nice can go away too. I'm fairly sure I've lost Double Damage or some other similar rune effect due to Manta Style.
Does a bottled rune illusion hold the same properties? Perhaps that rune is not the worst if bottled after all...
Not to diminish Page's post, but I learned everything I knew about Illusions here on Dota2 Wiki.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
But how do you automate player performance metrics? Will it not encourage certain tendencies and people playing passively to control kd score or afk farming a certain gpm then hiding in base to not accrue deaths abloobloo, nope just do it.
I mean these games need it beyond anything else to improve the lonely casual player's experience, but it is seldom even mentioned. Even if you are accruing a secondary resource like hats faster to barter your way up the ranks I don't care, there are ways to make it work.
I'd even take an MVP (and LeastVP) vote at the end of the game for each team, it would also encourage people to exercise better behaviour, since people would rather give a cordial support some award rather than a frothing rude carry. It would have to only proc outside of team stacks, or maybe only in the lower echelons of MMR.
Whatever you do If you remove it from the highest level of the ladder is still retains competitive integrity since honestly the best level of players do not have to act nicely to one another, or at least shouldn't receive competitive penalty for it.
It is not like there isn't precedent for outside systems influencing player status already with their happy point system which people sit in dark chat channels trading off anyways. Then there is the planned live coaching features as well which were to give some benefit.
You did this first, which was when I said I'm done taking your argument serious. If you just stated your ideas and left it at that, then no one would be feeling salty. Instead you have been saying "this is how it should be, everyone else is wrong".
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
On the upside, I'm getting into a few more medium skill games and even on wins/losses again.
This isn't needed because MMR hell does not exist. If you're significantly better than your MMR then you'll win more than 50% of your games and if you aren't then you won't. The system self balances by definition and if I'm not mistaken Valve allows you to specify a skill level to start anyway.
My Vengeful Spirit is just a hair under 4 bars now.
Sweet, sweet vindication.
Next up I have to figure out that fucking store. Drag the item? That did something. Right click? Nope. Wait, I heard a noise. Did I buy it? Why isn't in my inventory? Fuck.
I play Windrunner because I was a Lux player because both are cheerful, fully clothed females and I miss my giant LAZOR.
In every game where there is a rank or point system this argument comes out. Yes there is a hell in rank systems that use crazypoints or whatever you want to call the metric. You will get dropped into games where how well you play is incidental to whether or not you win, UNLESS you are willing to play a semi-carry and solo mid. You will not support, hard carry or initiate your way out of the abyss. It's been true in HoN and LoL and it will be true here. Most of the time people who have friends to play with never experience it, because it's one thing to lose close fights, it's another to lose because you have someone from planet Shitcock ruining your game.
Here's the thing, a lot of people who play these games are from planet Shitcock, so you better get a friend or two or not bother playing.
dem bars, man
dem bars
(play 1 game as a hero, do awful, you'll get 2 bars (average) anyway)
I know this because I am shit with Invoker and this is reflected in the diminutive size of my bar
Queen of Pain, Priestess of the Moon, basically any ranged solo mid semi-carry who can dominate their lane and then take over the game by ganking sidelanes, never dyin, and getting big. Those two also have blinks for dead-easy rune control and escapes.
I personally am a big fan of bloodseeker and spiritbreaker solo mid, but thats just me, they're not particularly good heroes, I'm just less shitty with them than I am with other heroes.
Solo queuing ain't so bad though. As long as you manage to avoid the BR and the RUS
get used to that feeling
you'll be feeling it a lot