I appreciated how they didn't 'other' Cortez for being gay. His gayness is treated as completely normal - nobody even bats an eyelash.
However, from the author-audience standpoint, he's still defined as a character by his sexuality. His major character conflict revolves around the death of his husband. It was well done, but he's still, primarily a Gay Man, not a Person who happens to be a man and happens to be gay.
Traynor's sexuality was far less in the forefront of her character. She mentions once that EDI's voice is attractive, and that's about it unless you pursue a romantic relationship with her. Otherwise, the primary conflict of her character is how she's a nerd amongst soldiers.
Cortez felt a little forced to me. Traynor felt much more natural.
That said, I didn't pursue the romantic interest with Traynor. My Shepard played a chess game with Traynor, which was a cute scene, but nothing further. So I don't know if the romantic bits are awkward.
Oh, I'm not saying non-sexualized female characters don't exist.
I didn't think that's what you were saying at all.
I agree with you.
Note that I had to dig pretty deep for one of those examples. Jade from Beyond Good and Evil. That came out in... what? 2003? There's no lack of sexpots in video games, but you have to go back 9 years to find more than a couple of good examples of non-sexpot female characters.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
One way I can perceive to be a safeguard against fetishization and towards normalization is to make one or both of the female characters not conventionally attractive, i.e., giant boobies, yet super skinny model running around war zones in stilettos and a thong type that so often populates lowest-common-denominator media. That way, one fetishized association with lesbianism--omg fuckin hot chicks makin' out!--gets normalized at the outset.
Femshep.
Jade from Beyond Good and Evil.
Faith from Mirror's Edge.
Chell from Portal.
It's entirely possible to have good-looking female characters without making them sexually exaggerated.
I can't find it now, but I remember reading a blog post about a conversation between two video game character designers - a man and a woman - where it was clear that the male character designer didn't understand the difference between 'attractive' and 'sexualized.' He was increasing the voluptuousness of a character model because he thought that making boobs and hips bigger was the only way to make the character appealing for the audience.
I think I actually ended up parsing that initial post as "oversexualized."
Alyx Vance from Half-Life 2 is another good example. She's a person. She's attractive, but, like, in a real-person way. She has emotions like a person and she dresses like a person. She dresses like I dress. I want to see more of characters like her.
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
Fuck is it really 2:00?
I forgot how much of a time vampire the fucking forums are. I have to take a shower. Bye!
3DS: 2165 - 6538 - 3417
NNID: Hakkekage
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
On the double fine backer's forum they're doing a poll about whether people would like to see a male or female protagonist.
Male was in the lead (like 165 to 155).
Then I made a big somewhat impassioned post about why the character should be female, and now the poll is male: 166, female: 175!
Sure, maybe I had nothing to do with it, but I want to believe that my stirring rhetoric encouraged people to make the right choice.
The protagonist should be transgendered.
Actually a few people in the thread were talking about how the main character should be androgynous/indeterminable gender and I thought that might be neat.
I have often thought that if I made a game, that's how I'd go.
Or do something where you can choose your gender, but your love interest is fixed. Or something.
I also have thought that maybe I'd just make the protagonist female, and rescuing her girlfriend from the whatever, and then other than the introduction and references to the girlfriend, not have it really come up ever. Because normalizing things like that is important (and kind of awesome when I see it happen.)
The same fetishes that are traditionally attached to giant tittied lady characteristics in games will unfortunately continue to be attached to an implied or perceived lesbian relationship no matter how little of the actual hanky panky happens on screen
Lesbians right guys
I know, but I don't think that means lesbianism shouldn't be shown, just that it needs to be shown very carefully. I guess I just feel the best way to do that is have it there, but no big thing. I'd rather that than every woman in media be straight.
I'm really upset that those fetishes are attached that way is what I'm saying, I guess, and I want to remove them but don't know how other than portray the relationship as.. well, just a romantic relationship between two women.
How did you feel about Traynor and Cortez in ME3?
I am going to be perfectly honest and say I've been gaming a lot less recently. My time has been spent working and studying computers.
I am playing Super Mario RPG at night to get back into Japanese.
So. I'd have to have that relationship described to me. When I get a new computer I'll play the Mass Effect series >.>
Basically, when you meet Cortez he mentions that he lost his husband in a Collector attack, and Shepard's response is sympathy—nobody cares that he had a husband instead of a wife, and he has a small arc where you can help him come to terms with his loss (and romance him as male Shepard).
Oh, I actually think I saw a friend play through that part.
Yeah, stuff like that's perfect. Stuff that says "hey, this guy's gay, but whatever" and doesn't make his gayness some novelty because hey, look at how edgy we are, or hey, check out THIS guy! He's GAY! Let's talk about THAT!
Edit: Er, if Feral's describing it right, then nevermind. I interpreted that wrong. I'd still say stuff like that's overall good, but it shouldn't be the entirety of the character.
Shivahn on
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
Stuff that says "hey, this guy's gay, but whatever" and doesn't make his gayness some novelty because hey, look at how edgy we are, or hey, check out THIS guy! He's GAY! Let's talk about THAT!
I would be okay if there was a character who was ragingly gay or trans or something. If the world called for that, of course.
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
Alyx gets a little, I don't know, flirty in Ep2 in a rather jarring way.
I suppose that's just plot development, though.
That's true, and I have to think about that, but I didn't see it as particularly jarring other than being maybe too fast.
There's a fine line you have to walk to make her have desires without making the desires about the player or what the player wants, rather than her as an individual.
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
To be fair, in Half-Life 2 you play a rather dashing savior of mankind, also humans are suddenly able to actually make baby again, and the world is over run by aliens.
Not a lot of time for the standard relationship development to take place.
I appreciated how they didn't 'other' Cortez for being gay. His gayness is treated as completely normal - nobody even bats an eyelash.
However, from the author-audience standpoint, he's still defined as a character by his sexuality. His major character conflict revolves around the death of his husband. It was well done, but he's still, primarily a Gay Man, not a Person who happens to be a man and happens to be gay.
Traynor's sexuality was far less in the forefront of her character. She mentions once that EDI's voice is attractive, and that's about it unless you pursue a romantic relationship with her. Otherwise, the primary conflict of her character is how she's a nerd amongst soldiers.
Cortez felt a little forced to me. Traynor felt much more natural.
That said, I didn't pursue the romantic interest with Traynor. My Shepard played a chess game with Traynor, which was a cute scene, but nothing further. So I don't know if the romantic bits are awkward.
That character conflict is about loss, though, not sexuality per se. It wouldn't be different if he were grieving over his wife, because it's not about sex, it's about the loved one who's no longer there.
Stuff that says "hey, this guy's gay, but whatever" and doesn't make his gayness some novelty because hey, look at how edgy we are, or hey, check out THIS guy! He's GAY! Let's talk about THAT!
I would be okay if there was a character who was ragingly gay or trans or something. If the world called for that, of course.
The problem is that we aren't at a place where a character like that is a deviation from a norm, rather than reinforcement as a norm.
I mean, can you think of a single trans character in any game?
Persona 4 has a case where they sort of hint at it maybe, but it's dismissed pretty quickly. Other than that I can't really think of any trans characters.
(I am less knowledgeable about games than most of you so I could be missing something obvious, of course.)
Stuff that says "hey, this guy's gay, but whatever" and doesn't make his gayness some novelty because hey, look at how edgy we are, or hey, check out THIS guy! He's GAY! Let's talk about THAT!
I would be okay if there was a character who was ragingly gay or trans or something. If the world called for that, of course.
The problem is that we aren't at a place where a character like that is a deviation from a norm, rather than reinforcement as a norm.
I mean, can you think of a single trans character in any game?
Persona 4 has a case where they sort of hint at it maybe, but it's dismissed pretty quickly. Other than that I can't really think of any trans characters.
(I am less knowledgeable about games than most of you so I could be missing something obvious, of course.)
Poison from Final Fight, and other street fighter related games including Street Fighter X Tekken is either a post-op transexual or a 'new half' (female sexual organs up top but male sexual organs down below) depending on what country and/or specific release of the game we are talking about.
Stuff that says "hey, this guy's gay, but whatever" and doesn't make his gayness some novelty because hey, look at how edgy we are, or hey, check out THIS guy! He's GAY! Let's talk about THAT!
I would be okay if there was a character who was ragingly gay or trans or something. If the world called for that, of course.
The problem is that we aren't at a place where a character like that is a deviation from a norm, rather than reinforcement as a norm.
I mean, can you think of a single trans character in any game?
Persona 4 has a case where they sort of hint at it maybe, but it's dismissed pretty quickly. Other than that I can't really think of any trans characters.
(I am less knowledgeable about games than most of you so I could be missing something obvious, of course.)
That's not strictly a video-game problem. It's a media problem. Gay and lesbian characters are only starting to be accepted (and that's still rare), it's going to take longer for trans characters to reach that goal IMO.
Harry Dresden on
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DynagripBreak me a million heartsHoustonRegistered User, ClubPAregular
is it a bad idea to carry my social security card around in my wallet?
so does anyone ever report gambling earnings? i mean, i totally do...
you're required to. sometimes the casino'll W-2G you and send the info to the IRS, so they'll know about it. failure to report will result in an automatic audit
is it a bad idea to carry my social security card around in my wallet?
yes
Edit: I'm agreeing emphatically with tyrannus. The problem is that if your wallet is stolen, you're going to be in a world of trouble.
Two things that should be on the list of items you lock up in a safe, or safety deposit box: Social Security Card, and Certified Birth Certificate (by extension, Passport).
I think I might go try to find some geocaches
never thought I would be a geocacher nerd but 100 caches later I am ready to leave my house on my own and find them without assistance from my boyfriend
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
Stuff that says "hey, this guy's gay, but whatever" and doesn't make his gayness some novelty because hey, look at how edgy we are, or hey, check out THIS guy! He's GAY! Let's talk about THAT!
I would be okay if there was a character who was ragingly gay or trans or something. If the world called for that, of course.
The problem is that we aren't at a place where a character like that is a deviation from a norm, rather than reinforcement as a norm.
I mean, can you think of a single trans character in any game?
Persona 4 has a case where they sort of hint at it maybe, but it's dismissed pretty quickly. Other than that I can't really think of any trans characters.
(I am less knowledgeable about games than most of you so I could be missing something obvious, of course.)
Poison from Final Fight, and other street fighter related games including Street Fighter X Tekken is either a post-op transexual or a 'new half' (female sexual organs up top but male sexual organs down below) depending on what country and/or specific release of the game we are talking about.
I just wiki'd her.
Then closed the page because there are children where I work :P
Stuff that says "hey, this guy's gay, but whatever" and doesn't make his gayness some novelty because hey, look at how edgy we are, or hey, check out THIS guy! He's GAY! Let's talk about THAT!
I would be okay if there was a character who was ragingly gay or trans or something. If the world called for that, of course.
The problem is that we aren't at a place where a character like that is a deviation from a norm, rather than reinforcement as a norm.
I mean, can you think of a single trans character in any game?
Persona 4 has a case where they sort of hint at it maybe, but it's dismissed pretty quickly. Other than that I can't really think of any trans characters.
(I am less knowledgeable about games than most of you so I could be missing something obvious, of course.)
That's not strictly a video-game problem. It's a media problem. Gay and lesbian characters are only starting to be accepted (and that's still rare), it's going to take longer for trans characters to reach that goal IMO.
Oh, I know. I'm just personally pretty uninterested in TV so video games are what I usually can talk about with respect to social issues.
Stuff that says "hey, this guy's gay, but whatever" and doesn't make his gayness some novelty because hey, look at how edgy we are, or hey, check out THIS guy! He's GAY! Let's talk about THAT!
I would be okay if there was a character who was ragingly gay or trans or something. If the world called for that, of course.
The problem is that we aren't at a place where a character like that is a deviation from a norm, rather than reinforcement as a norm.
I mean, can you think of a single trans character in any game?
Persona 4 has a case where they sort of hint at it maybe, but it's dismissed pretty quickly. Other than that I can't really think of any trans characters.
(I am less knowledgeable about games than most of you so I could be missing something obvious, of course.)
Poison from Final Fight, and other street fighter related games including Street Fighter X Tekken is either a post-op transexual or a 'new half' (female sexual organs up top but male sexual organs down below) depending on what country and/or specific release of the game we are talking about.
I just wiki'd her.
Then closed the page because there are children where I work :P
In any case, I kind of need to understand the background to see if it's done right. Right now all I can see is the fan reaction is... wrong.
Ah yes, definitely not safe to GIS. And yeah, the fan reaction ranges from actually pretty good to the rather predictably terrible.
Honestly I don't know too much about how it was handled in game because, when it was coming out back in 1989 such matters were quite over my 2 year old head. :P
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
That picture reminds me of the (completely unrelated) OWS snapshot of a boy and girl making out, with her skirt rucked up so you could see some very pretty legs and butt.
This one?
(Slightly NSFW)
If so, that was the Vancouver Stanley Cup riots, not OWS.
Posts
Regarding that:
However, from the author-audience standpoint, he's still defined as a character by his sexuality. His major character conflict revolves around the death of his husband. It was well done, but he's still, primarily a Gay Man, not a Person who happens to be a man and happens to be gay.
Traynor's sexuality was far less in the forefront of her character. She mentions once that EDI's voice is attractive, and that's about it unless you pursue a romantic relationship with her. Otherwise, the primary conflict of her character is how she's a nerd amongst soldiers.
Cortez felt a little forced to me. Traynor felt much more natural.
That said, I didn't pursue the romantic interest with Traynor. My Shepard played a chess game with Traynor, which was a cute scene, but nothing further. So I don't know if the romantic bits are awkward.
I didn't think that's what you were saying at all.
I agree with you.
Note that I had to dig pretty deep for one of those examples. Jade from Beyond Good and Evil. That came out in... what? 2003? There's no lack of sexpots in video games, but you have to go back 9 years to find more than a couple of good examples of non-sexpot female characters.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I think I actually ended up parsing that initial post as "oversexualized."
Alyx Vance from Half-Life 2 is another good example. She's a person. She's attractive, but, like, in a real-person way. She has emotions like a person and she dresses like a person. She dresses like I dress. I want to see more of characters like her.
I forgot how much of a time vampire the fucking forums are. I have to take a shower. Bye!
NNID: Hakkekage
Shahs of Sunset
NNID: Hakkekage
Cue somebody doing it on the NES for real.
I suppose that's just plot development, though.
Oh, I actually think I saw a friend play through that part.
Yeah, stuff like that's perfect. Stuff that says "hey, this guy's gay, but whatever" and doesn't make his gayness some novelty because hey, look at how edgy we are, or hey, check out THIS guy! He's GAY! Let's talk about THAT!
Edit: Er, if Feral's describing it right, then nevermind. I interpreted that wrong. I'd still say stuff like that's overall good, but it shouldn't be the entirety of the character.
OKAY SERIOUSLY going now
NNID: Hakkekage
Yeah, looks like a show purpose built to exploit every negative stereotype that exists in my area against aremenians/persians/iranians/etc.
Lovely.
http://road.cc/content/news/56074-ride-cobbled-climbs-ronde-van-edinburgh-tomorrow-then-watch-tour-flanders-tv
I would be okay if there was a character who was ragingly gay or trans or something. If the world called for that, of course.
That's true, and I have to think about that, but I didn't see it as particularly jarring other than being maybe too fast.
There's a fine line you have to walk to make her have desires without making the desires about the player or what the player wants, rather than her as an individual.
Not a lot of time for the standard relationship development to take place.
The problem is that we aren't at a place where a character like that is a deviation from a norm, rather than reinforcement as a norm.
I mean, can you think of a single trans character in any game?
Persona 4 has a case where they sort of hint at it maybe, but it's dismissed pretty quickly. Other than that I can't really think of any trans characters.
(I am less knowledgeable about games than most of you so I could be missing something obvious, of course.)
not the best character or anything but going from nothing to casually talking about it makes just about every other shortcoming forgivable in my view
Poison from Final Fight, and other street fighter related games including Street Fighter X Tekken is either a post-op transexual or a 'new half' (female sexual organs up top but male sexual organs down below) depending on what country and/or specific release of the game we are talking about.
That's not strictly a video-game problem. It's a media problem. Gay and lesbian characters are only starting to be accepted (and that's still rare), it's going to take longer for trans characters to reach that goal IMO.
http://www.lab-curio.com/book/stockA-C.html
old children's book store with a few scans of different pages from each.
you're required to. sometimes the casino'll W-2G you and send the info to the IRS, so they'll know about it. failure to report will result in an automatic audit
I used to but then I got afraid I would lose it
yes
I wouldn't carry mine in my wallet, personally.
Edit: I'm agreeing emphatically with tyrannus. The problem is that if your wallet is stolen, you're going to be in a world of trouble.
Two things that should be on the list of items you lock up in a safe, or safety deposit box: Social Security Card, and Certified Birth Certificate (by extension, Passport).
never thought I would be a geocacher nerd but 100 caches later I am ready to leave my house on my own and find them without assistance from my boyfriend
yep
you don't need it often enough to warrant carrying it in your wallet
just one more thing you have to pay to replace if you lose the wallet
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
I just wiki'd her.
Then closed the page because there are children where I work :P
Oh god this is like the fourth link http://www.destructoid.com/damn-it-final-fight-s-poison-is-a-tranny-59850.phtml
I'm sort of upset now.
In any case, I kind of need to understand the background to see if it's done right. Right now all I can see is the fan reaction is... wrong.
Oh, I know. I'm just personally pretty uninterested in TV so video games are what I usually can talk about with respect to social issues.
Ah yes, definitely not safe to GIS. And yeah, the fan reaction ranges from actually pretty good to the rather predictably terrible.
Honestly I don't know too much about how it was handled in game because, when it was coming out back in 1989 such matters were quite over my 2 year old head. :P
This one?
(Slightly NSFW)
If so, that was the Vancouver Stanley Cup riots, not OWS.