So I'm finally all caught up after watching series six and I still have one nagging question.
Just where does the church stand in all of this? In Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone they recruited Dr. Song to infiltrate the byzantine and investigate the weeping angel not to mention they implied that they intended on keeping Dr. Song prisoner.
But in this series they repeatedly helped out the silence kidnap and brainwash Melody in order to kill the Doctor. So why are the church keeping Dr. Song locked up for a crime that they helped make her commit?
Congratulations, you've found yet another one of the plotholes that makes Moffat who pretty terrible on the whole
So I'm finally all caught up after watching series six and I still have one nagging question.
Just where does the church stand in all of this? In Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone they recruited Dr. Song to infiltrate the byzantine and investigate the weeping angel not to mention they implied that they intended on keeping Dr. Song prisoner.
But in this series they repeatedly helped out the silence kidnap and brainwash Melody in order to kill the Doctor. So why are the church keeping Dr. Song locked up for a crime that they helped make her commit?
Congratulations, you've found yet another one of the plotholes that makes Moffat who pretty terrible on the whole
... oh. you're serious?
I figure I could take a bear.
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
So I'm finally all caught up after watching series six and I still have one nagging question.
Just where does the church stand in all of this? In Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone they recruited Dr. Song to infiltrate the byzantine and investigate the weeping angel not to mention they implied that they intended on keeping Dr. Song prisoner.
But in this series they repeatedly helped out the silence kidnap and brainwash Melody in order to kill the Doctor. So why are the church keeping Dr. Song locked up for a crime that they helped make her commit?
Congratulations, you've found yet another one of the plotholes that makes Moffat who pretty terrible on the whole
... oh. you're serious?
Isn't it a question of timelines?
I.E. the prison is later on in the timeline, where the church may have reformed. Or the prison is after the universe finds out the Doctor isn't dead, so the prison is keeping River there because she DIDN'T kill him and they're covering it up so the Silence backs the fuck off, or she kills someone else. Like Rory.
So I'm finally all caught up after watching series six and I still have one nagging question.
Just where does the church stand in all of this? In Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone they recruited Dr. Song to infiltrate the byzantine and investigate the weeping angel not to mention they implied that they intended on keeping Dr. Song prisoner.
But in this series they repeatedly helped out the silence kidnap and brainwash Melody in order to kill the Doctor. So why are the church keeping Dr. Song locked up for a crime that they helped make her commit?
Congratulations, you've found yet another one of the plotholes that makes Moffat who pretty terrible on the whole
... oh. you're serious?
Yep
The atrocities Moffat commits against continuity and, you know, narrative vastly outweigh Davies' fart monsters
0
Options
DomhnallMinty D. Vision!ScotlandRegistered Userregular
edited March 2012
Umm, Isn't it
Because they're in on the 'Doctor is dead' conspiracy. If they didn't imprison River then people would question why the hell they're letting the woman who killed the 'greatest man ever' go free. Instead they keep her 'imprisoned' and whenever she needs to leave her maximun security prison run by the church she can do so incredibly easily because they know she didn't do it but they need to keep up appearances. For the sake of the Doctor, and the universe and what not.
edit:
I read that wrong. Point still stands though that
River Song can somehow escape from the universe's greatest prison (was it described as that? Not sure, been a while but its definately a super prison) at will and her jailers can do nothing to stop her. Almost like they're letting her. You'd think after the 3rd escape that if they were really serious about keeping her in jail they'd just tie her hands together and tie her to a pole or something.
Domhnall on
Xbox Live - Minty D Vision Steam - Minty D. Vision! Origin/BF3 - MintyDVision
0
Options
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
I don't think they're in on it;
Octavious was pretty hostile towards River, because she killed the Doctor. I got the vibe that the church is pretty mad at her for it.
But then earlier on, the Doctor was an enemy of the church anyway, when they were working for Kovarian, so what do they care?
We're missing the middle part where the Doctor buddies up with the church in the first place.
To be fair, gearing up to kill the Doctor, have him show up in your base with an army, make fools of you, capture you all with almost 0 casualties, and then just let you all go with no repercussions would probably earn the Doctor a lot of respect. Mind you, it was all Kovarian's plan and trap, but I doubt she would have batted an eye had the Doctor come in all guns blazing and every Church soldier died.
Octavious was pretty hostile towards River, because she killed the Doctor. I got the vibe that the church is pretty mad at her for it.
But then earlier on, the Doctor was an enemy of the church anyway, when they were working for Kovarian, so what do they care?
We're missing the middle part where the Doctor buddies up with the church in the first place.
I'm just honestly hoping there's an episode in the new series dealing with River's arrest and imprisonment, maybe include the doctor rooting out the corrupt dudes at the top.
Octavious was pretty hostile towards River, because she killed the Doctor. I got the vibe that the church is pretty mad at her for it.
But then earlier on, the Doctor was an enemy of the church anyway, when they were working for Kovarian, so what do they care?
We're missing the middle part where the Doctor buddies up with the church in the first place.
I'm just honestly hoping there's an episode in the new series dealing with River's arrest and imprisonment, maybe include the doctor rooting out the corrupt dudes at the top.
I seriously doubt that is going to happen.
But we still need to know who is running the whole show and who yelled SILENCE WILL FALL at the end of Season 5, so there's still time!
Yeah, they got the same Omega patches and everything!
Ok, based on the Doctor Who wiki, you guys are half-right. In a sort of timey wimey way.
It is the same Church, but the chronology is incorrect. First, they trust the Doctor, and distrust River since she killed the Doctor. The fact that she killed the Doctor is apparently known fairly well throughout time.
It is in the next century, however, that they conspire with the Silence to actually arrange that. So something happens that causes them to change their allegiance, such as learning of the Question or whatever (which I assume we'll get more on this season).
So it's backwards from what's been suggested here. It's not that something happened to make them trust the Doctor, or respect him more. It's the opposite.
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
I thought it was the other way around, since
it was implied that the museum they find the home box at the start of Time Of Angels is Demon's Run a century later? "This asteroid is the final resting place of the Headless Monks"
So the battle of Demon's Run has to happen before Time of Angels, right?
it was implied that the museum they find the home box at the start of Time Of Angels is Demon's Run a century later? "This asteroid is the final resting place of the Headless Monks"
So the battle of Demon's Run has to happen before Time of Angels, right?
Octavious was pretty hostile towards River, because she killed the Doctor. I got the vibe that the church is pretty mad at her for it.
But then earlier on, the Doctor was an enemy of the church anyway, when they were working for Kovarian, so what do they care?
We're missing the middle part where the Doctor buddies up with the church in the first place.
I'm just honestly hoping there's an episode in the new series dealing with River's arrest and imprisonment, maybe include the doctor rooting out the corrupt dudes at the top.
I'm honestly hoping that the premiere kills the fuck out of River for ever and ever retroactively so Moffat can knock it the fuck off with her already
She worked really well in Silence in the Library, and has been utterly ridiculous ever since
0
Options
Mike Danger"Diane..."a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered Userregular
After the S6 finale, I'm done with River. I don't think there's anything interesting left to be done with her.
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Wait, no, I goofed. The home box is in the museum for a whole buncha years, so of course that section is set after Demon's Run. Kime got it right.
I could go for more River, she's pretty great in Silence In The Library and Time Of Angels, imo. She's a good support character, I just hated seeing a whole series arc revolve around her. And then Series 6 went ahead and
closed every possible avenue for more non-Alex Kingston River stories
so oops.
Oh brilliant
0
Options
Mike Danger"Diane..."a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered Userregular
The whole handling of River's past in Season 6, in retrospect, really, really drives me crazy.
The whole handling of River's past in Season 6, in retrospect, really, really drives me crazy.
It's kind of amazing how they built up the idea that she killed the Doctor, then took away any possible agency she might have had in the matter, not to mention he ended up not dying anyway.
Superb trailer, and now that Ben Browder is paying a visit to the Who-verse it's going to be next to impossible for me to wait for this series to start up again.
Is there still an Easter special? Will BBCA be showing it day and date of the BBC premiere like they did with the Christmas special?
I don't think so. I think new episodes don't start until the fall, but I have totally lost track with all of the shit that happened involving the show taking time off.
Not much had been confirmed about the Doctor's forthcoming adventures but we think it's safe to say we can expect to see the return of perhaps the Doctor's most legendary foe. Here are some sneaky pictures fresh from the set of Doctor Who where the Daleks are being wheeled before the cameras once again. But which design? The answer is ALL OF THEM!
I wonder if that's all the 2005+ designs, or really ALL of em? :P
One of the pics looks like the fossilized Dalek from The Big Bang, but with the old style smaller gun? Maybe that's an old style 60s one covered in dust?
Also an all black case - that's a classic only design, right? Can't recall any of the modern ones being all black...
Oh brilliant
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Not much had been confirmed about the Doctor's forthcoming adventures but we think it's safe to say we can expect to see the return of perhaps the Doctor's most legendary foe. Here are some sneaky pictures fresh from the set of Doctor Who where the Daleks are being wheeled before the cameras once again. But which design? The answer is ALL OF THEM!
I wonder if that's all the 2005+ designs, or really ALL of em? :P
One of the pics looks like the fossilized Dalek from The Big Bang, but with the old style smaller gun? Maybe that's an old style 60s one covered in dust?
Also an all black case - that's a classic only design, right? Can't recall any of the modern ones being all black...
Not much had been confirmed about the Doctor's forthcoming adventures but we think it's safe to say we can expect to see the return of perhaps the Doctor's most legendary foe. Here are some sneaky pictures fresh from the set of Doctor Who where the Daleks are being wheeled before the cameras once again. But which design? The answer is ALL OF THEM!
I wonder if that's all the 2005+ designs, or really ALL of em? :P
One of the pics looks like the fossilized Dalek from The Big Bang, but with the old style smaller gun? Maybe that's an old style 60s one covered in dust?
Also an all black case - that's a classic only design, right? Can't recall any of the modern ones being all black...
The one covered in dust is the original 60's Dalek. Here's another pic:
I remember Moffat once saying that if he had to do another Dalek story, he'd put The Doctor in the middle of a Dalek city or something, as that's the only thing that could really make the idea of Daleks scary again. Maybe that's what he's going for with all these Daleks in one episode.
So I'm finally all caught up after watching series six and I still have one nagging question.
Just where does the church stand in all of this? In Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone they recruited Dr. Song to infiltrate the byzantine and investigate the weeping angel not to mention they implied that they intended on keeping Dr. Song prisoner.
But in this series they repeatedly helped out the silence kidnap and brainwash Melody in order to kill the Doctor. So why are the church keeping Dr. Song locked up for a crime that they helped make her commit?
Congratulations, you've found yet another one of the plotholes that makes Moffat who pretty terrible on the whole
... oh. you're serious?
Yep
The atrocities Moffat commits against continuity and, you know, narrative vastly outweigh Davies' fart monsters
I'm assuming this is sarcasm, but being the internet and all it's hard to tell still..
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Not much had been confirmed about the Doctor's forthcoming adventures but we think it's safe to say we can expect to see the return of perhaps the Doctor's most legendary foe. Here are some sneaky pictures fresh from the set of Doctor Who where the Daleks are being wheeled before the cameras once again. But which design? The answer is ALL OF THEM!
I wonder if that's all the 2005+ designs, or really ALL of em? :P
One of the pics looks like the fossilized Dalek from The Big Bang, but with the old style smaller gun? Maybe that's an old style 60s one covered in dust?
Also an all black case - that's a classic only design, right? Can't recall any of the modern ones being all black...
The one covered in dust is the original 60's Dalek. Here's another pic:
I remember Moffat once saying that if he had to do another Dalek story, he'd put The Doctor in the middle of a Dalek city or something, as that's the only thing that could really make the idea of Daleks scary again. Maybe that's what he's going for with all these Daleks in one episode.
That would be pretty great. My favorite Dalek episodes remain Genesis and the original Hartnell serial.
Not much had been confirmed about the Doctor's forthcoming adventures but we think it's safe to say we can expect to see the return of perhaps the Doctor's most legendary foe. Here are some sneaky pictures fresh from the set of Doctor Who where the Daleks are being wheeled before the cameras once again. But which design? The answer is ALL OF THEM!
I wonder if that's all the 2005+ designs, or really ALL of em? :P
One of the pics looks like the fossilized Dalek from The Big Bang, but with the old style smaller gun? Maybe that's an old style 60s one covered in dust?
Also an all black case - that's a classic only design, right? Can't recall any of the modern ones being all black...
The one covered in dust is the original 60's Dalek. Here's another pic:
I remember Moffat once saying that if he had to do another Dalek story, he'd put The Doctor in the middle of a Dalek city or something, as that's the only thing that could really make the idea of Daleks scary again. Maybe that's what he's going for with all these Daleks in one episode.
That would be pretty great. My favorite Dalek episodes remain Genesis and the original Hartnell serial.
Well that depends...
It would be awesome and scary
to have the Doctor running and hiding as countless Daleks hunt him on all directions. The Doctor crouching in darkness, terrified, holding his breath hoping the Daleks gliding on the other side of the wall do not spot him. At the end of the episode, the Doctor barely escapes with his life.
It would be lame and boring
to have the Doctor stroll around the Dalek city, chatting away, walking past Dalek after Dalek without a single of them trying to stop him. At the end of the episode, the Doctor effortlessly destroys the entire city and all the Daleks, except possibly one single Dalek that escapes and swears to return for a sequel.
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Yes, this is true, if the story is good it would be good but if it's crap it would be awful. I prefer to remain hopeful, though.
0
Options
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
I find armies of Daleks thoroughly underwhelming. They're at their best when there's just one, barely functional, and still racking up the kills. 'Dalek' the episode took it a little too far, giving it a shield and downloading the internet, but The Big Bang hit it juuust right, imo.
I'd love to see the Doctor scared of em again, and if the 6th series ending was all about bringing the Doctor out of the universes' spotlight then maybe we'll get it; he can't pull the Stonehenge stunt again if his reputation is gone.
Might be cool to see a Dalek civil war though! The iDaleks didn't care much for the Time War versions, maybe they'd be superior assholes to the classic 60s ones too.
Oh brilliant
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
That's interesting, but it would need some handwaving because the iDaleks were supposed to be a rebirth of the original Daleks since the ones from Victory were the Daleks that Davros cloned from himself.
to have the Doctor running and hiding as countless Daleks hunt him on all directions. The Doctor crouching in darkness, terrified, holding his breath hoping the Daleks gliding on the other side of the wall do not spot him. At the end of the episode, the Doctor barely escapes with his life.
It would be lame and boring
to have the Doctor stroll around the Dalek city, chatting away, walking past Dalek after Dalek without a single of them trying to stop him. At the end of the episode, the Doctor effortlessly destroys the entire city and all the Daleks, except possibly one single Dalek that escapes and swears to return for a sequel.
If there's one thing I feel I can count on when it comes to Moffat, it's that he will always take the scary option over anything else.
So, Amy's back. And what looks like Cleopatra. Good. I hope they're a bit more historically accurate with her than what they implied in Series 6... she was not a push-over.
Just a failure. There are much better strong women from African history, like Mrs. Funmilayo Ransome Kuti, The Queen of Sheba, and Queen Nzingha of Ndongo.
So, Amy's back. And what looks like Cleopatra. Good. I hope they're a bit more historically accurate with her than what they implied in Series 6... she was not a push-over.
Just a failure. There are much better strong women from African history, like Mrs. Funmilayo Ransome Kuti, The Queen of Sheba, and Queen Nzingha of Ndongo.
A failure? Don't be ridiculous. She was politically and socially savvy. She was the member of the Ptolemy dynasty that showed the most knowledge of Egyptian culture and society, and was hugely popular with the people. She managed to wrestle the throne from her brother in the middle of a Roman civil war, and kept Egypt an independent state by personally obtaining the favours of two successive Roman leaders. She also ran one of the first PR wars that we know of in history - when the Romans accused her of being a femme fatale serially seducing Caesar and Antony with her feminine wiles, she had Egyptian coins minted showing her as a plain and unattractive person. For want of a single sea battle, Egypt would have remained an independent state under her rule. In the end she chose to commit suicide as a free and proud ruler, rather than be taken as bounty and displayed as a humiliated prisoner in Augustus' triumph in Rome. 2000 years later, ask anyone to name a Queen of Egypt, and out of the whole 3000 years of Pharaonic history and rulers hers is still the name that will pop first in most people's minds.
So, Amy's back. And what looks like Cleopatra. Good. I hope they're a bit more historically accurate with her than what they implied in Series 6... she was not a push-over.
Just a failure. There are much better strong women from African history, like Mrs. Funmilayo Ransome Kuti, The Queen of Sheba, and Queen Nzingha of Ndongo.
A failure? Don't be ridiculous. She was politically and socially savvy. She was the member of the Ptolemy dynasty that showed the most knowledge of Egyptian culture and society, and was hugely popular with the people. She managed to wrestle the throne from her brother in the middle of a Roman civil war, and kept Egypt an independent state by personally obtaining the favours of two successive Roman leaders. She also ran one of the first PR wars that we know of in history - when the Romans accused her of being a femme fatale serially seducing Caesar and Antony with her feminine wiles, she had Egyptian coins minted showing her as a plain and unattractive person. For want of a single sea battle, Egypt would have remained an independent state under her rule. In the end she chose to commit suicide as a free and proud ruler, rather than be taken as bounty and displayed as a humiliated prisoner in Augustus' triumph in Rome. 2000 years later, ask anyone to name a Queen of Egypt, and out of the whole 3000 years of Pharaonic history and rulers hers is still the name that will pop first in most people's minds.
Mainly because she tied herself to two different powerful people who were branded as enemies of the Roman Empire and lost. You tend to show up a lot when you're involved in two different famous rebellions. In the end, she took a relatively powerful kingdom, made a series of failed alliances, and rendered herself the last of her line (also making her the most recent, and therefor most easy to remember). Compare to the warrior queens of Kush, who frequently fought off the Romans and may have fought off Alexander the Great. It's really hard to believe that she kept Egypt as an independent state when the results of her actions was Egypt losing its independence.
Edit: and, of course, if you want to show a historic last stand, there's always Yaa Asantewaa, although we both know that Dr. Who is never going to show someone standing up to Britain in a positive light.
Bagginses on
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
An ep about the Queen of Sheba would be pretty cool.
Posts
Congratulations, you've found yet another one of the plotholes that makes Moffat who pretty terrible on the whole
Isn't it a question of timelines?
Yep
The atrocities Moffat commits against continuity and, you know, narrative vastly outweigh Davies' fart monsters
edit:
I read that wrong. Point still stands though that
Steam - Minty D. Vision!
Origin/BF3 - MintyDVision
But then earlier on, the Doctor was an enemy of the church anyway, when they were working for Kovarian, so what do they care?
We're missing the middle part where the Doctor buddies up with the church in the first place.
Errrr....
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
But we still need to know who is running the whole show and who yelled SILENCE WILL FALL at the end of Season 5, so there's still time!
Ok, based on the Doctor Who wiki, you guys are half-right. In a sort of timey wimey way.
It is in the next century, however, that they conspire with the Silence to actually arrange that. So something happens that causes them to change their allegiance, such as learning of the Question or whatever (which I assume we'll get more on this season).
So it's backwards from what's been suggested here. It's not that something happened to make them trust the Doctor, or respect him more. It's the opposite.
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
So the battle of Demon's Run has to happen before Time of Angels, right?
Well, here's the link that says otherwise: http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Church
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
I'm honestly hoping that the premiere kills the fuck out of River for ever and ever retroactively so Moffat can knock it the fuck off with her already
She worked really well in Silence in the Library, and has been utterly ridiculous ever since
I could go for more River, she's pretty great in Silence In The Library and Time Of Angels, imo. She's a good support character, I just hated seeing a whole series arc revolve around her. And then Series 6 went ahead and
It's kind of amazing how they built up the idea that she killed the Doctor, then took away any possible agency she might have had in the matter, not to mention he ended up not dying anyway.
Superb trailer, and now that Ben Browder is paying a visit to the Who-verse it's going to be next to impossible for me to wait for this series to start up again.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
I don't think so. I think new episodes don't start until the fall, but I have totally lost track with all of the shit that happened involving the show taking time off.
I wonder if that's all the 2005+ designs, or really ALL of em? :P
One of the pics looks like the fossilized Dalek from The Big Bang, but with the old style smaller gun? Maybe that's an old style 60s one covered in dust?
Also an all black case - that's a classic only design, right? Can't recall any of the modern ones being all black...
Dalek Sec was all black.
I'm assuming this is sarcasm, but being the internet and all it's hard to tell still..
That would be pretty great. My favorite Dalek episodes remain Genesis and the original Hartnell serial.
It would be awesome and scary
It would be lame and boring
I'd love to see the Doctor scared of em again, and if the 6th series ending was all about bringing the Doctor out of the universes' spotlight then maybe we'll get it; he can't pull the Stonehenge stunt again if his reputation is gone.
Might be cool to see a Dalek civil war though! The iDaleks didn't care much for the Time War versions, maybe they'd be superior assholes to the classic 60s ones too.
If there's one thing I feel I can count on when it comes to Moffat, it's that he will always take the scary option over anything else.
Just a failure. There are much better strong women from African history, like Mrs. Funmilayo Ransome Kuti, The Queen of Sheba, and Queen Nzingha of Ndongo.
Mainly because she tied herself to two different powerful people who were branded as enemies of the Roman Empire and lost. You tend to show up a lot when you're involved in two different famous rebellions. In the end, she took a relatively powerful kingdom, made a series of failed alliances, and rendered herself the last of her line (also making her the most recent, and therefor most easy to remember). Compare to the warrior queens of Kush, who frequently fought off the Romans and may have fought off Alexander the Great. It's really hard to believe that she kept Egypt as an independent state when the results of her actions was Egypt losing its independence.
Edit: and, of course, if you want to show a historic last stand, there's always Yaa Asantewaa, although we both know that Dr. Who is never going to show someone standing up to Britain in a positive light.