Cough.
At this point in a Magic tournament I would call over the head judge....
Only the Horned Rat is allowed to use the "third" slot. Tzeentch wouldn't be able to place a card over the Horned Rat in the "third" slot if the former wasn't allowed to put cards there in the first place.
I'm really surprised to see the Rat Ogre upgrade be so popular in all the games going on right now, especially as a first pick. I'm curious why so many think it's so good. Personally I think it's the HR's weakest upgrade.
I guess it sounds good on paper, but what does it do really? Protecting cultists isn't as vital for the HR since all figures have the same cost effectiveness when it comes to ruination. At the very most it's going to preserve one point for domination in a contested region where you have both rat ogres and clan rats (or one extra point for ruination if there's only one hit against you). That seems like such a small boost for such a narrow condition. It seems like the appeal comes from being carried over from the mindset of other gods', where such an upgrade protecting cultists would be amazing.
Except under very rare circumstances, Under Empire seems like the mandatory first upgrade choice (I could see taking clan rat if you double tick first turn). I think every HR victory I've seen here went with that for the first upgrade. Is there a game where a winning HR went with something else?
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mi-go hunterOnce again I'm back in the lab.Cleaning my knives, ready for stabs.Registered Userregular
I'm really surprised to see the Rat Ogre upgrade be so popular in all the games going on right now, especially as a first pick. I'm curious why so many think it's so good. Personally I think it's the HR's weakest upgrade.
I guess it sounds good on paper, but what does it do really? Protecting cultists isn't as vital for the HR since all figures have the same cost effectiveness when it comes to ruination. At the very most it's going to preserve one point for domination in a contested region where you have both rat ogres and clan rats (or one extra point for ruination if there's only one hit against you). That seems like such a small boost for such a narrow condition. It seems like the appeal comes from being carried over from the mindset of other gods', where such an upgrade protecting cultists would be amazing.
Except under very rare circumstances, Under Empire seems like the mandatory first upgrade choice (I could see taking clan rat if you double tick first turn). I think every HR victory I've seen here went with that for the first upgrade. Is there a game where a winning HR went with something else?
Well, my motivations for picking the Rat Ogre upgrade as first pick in the rpt4 game were:
1) Under Empire would not serve me well at that point in the game. Most regions I wanted to hang around were adjacent anyway, and I had an annoying lack of Empty the Warrens chaos cards, so I couldn't place Skaven tokens where I wanted them.
2) It would serve as a slight protection against Khorne, who planted Bloodletters in a region I coveted.
3) It would save me one point in domination like you mentioned.
4) I looked over the other upgrades and they seemed less useful at that point in the game.
Co13: No, I had burned out most of my hand in the first two rounds anyway.
Clan Rat: That won't help against Khorne! He'll just butcher my rats as soon as they appear.
Vermin Lord: He wasn't in play at the time.
Under Empire: Reason #1
So yes, there are situations where the Rat Ogre upgrade looks more useful than the other available choices. Not sure if that was the wisest choice (I lost that game), but that was my thought process when I selected it as my first upgrade.
Well, my motivations for picking the Rat Ogre upgrade as first pick in the rpt4 game were:
1) Under Empire would not serve me well at that point in the game. Most regions I wanted to hang around were adjacent anyway, and I had an annoying lack of Empty the Warrens chaos cards, so I couldn't place Skaven tokens where I wanted them.
2) It would serve as a slight protection against Khorne, who planted Bloodletters in a region I coveted.
3) It would save me one point in domination like you mentioned.
4) I looked over the other upgrades and they seemed less useful at that point in the game.
Co13: No, I had burned out most of my hand in the first two rounds anyway.
Clan Rat: That won't help against Khorne! He'll just butcher my rats as soon as they appear.
Vermin Lord: He wasn't in play at the time.
Under Empire: Reason #1
So yes, there are situations where the Rat Ogre upgrade looks more useful than the other available choices. Not sure if that was the wisest choice (I lost that game), but that was my thought process when I selected it as my first upgrade.
1) The only time I'd say Under Empire isn't worth it is if all the ruining regions are adjacent, there are no skaven tokens, and you still have skitterleap cards. You said you burned out your hand (7 cards?) so no more skitterleap? HR hinges so much on the leap ability that I'd still probably take UE even if the first 2 conditions were true but I was out of leap cards. Take away UE and skitterleap and you have a very lackluster god.
Co13 is always useful. I'd consider it my 2nd upgrade if only to have a card that Mystical Disregard can't cancel. Yeah the Vermin Lord upgrade isn't great if he isn't deployed (though I believe in almost never summoning a warrior if I can summon the greater daemon instead; such insanely better stats for one more point). I guess it would depend on the board but I think clan rat upgrade would defend against Khorne better. It costs a minimum of 3 summoning points for the rat ogre upgrade to kick in at a region, and the very absolute most it could do is save you one dominion point in one or two region (even though with 2 hits you'd lose more in power points).
MrBody on
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mi-go hunterOnce again I'm back in the lab.Cleaning my knives, ready for stabs.Registered Userregular
Well, my motivations for picking the Rat Ogre upgrade as first pick in the rpt4 game were:
1) Under Empire would not serve me well at that point in the game. Most regions I wanted to hang around were adjacent anyway, and I had an annoying lack of Empty the Warrens chaos cards, so I couldn't place Skaven tokens where I wanted them.
2) It would serve as a slight protection against Khorne, who planted Bloodletters in a region I coveted.
3) It would save me one point in domination like you mentioned.
4) I looked over the other upgrades and they seemed less useful at that point in the game.
Co13: No, I had burned out most of my hand in the first two rounds anyway.
Clan Rat: That won't help against Khorne! He'll just butcher my rats as soon as they appear.
Vermin Lord: He wasn't in play at the time.
Under Empire: Reason #1
So yes, there are situations where the Rat Ogre upgrade looks more useful than the other available choices. Not sure if that was the wisest choice (I lost that game), but that was my thought process when I selected it as my first upgrade.
1) The only time I'd say Under Empire isn't worth it is if all the ruining regions are adjacent, there are no skaven tokens, and you still have skitterleap cards. You said you burned out your hand (7 cards?) so no more skitterleap? HR hinges so much on the leap ability that I'd still probably take UE even if the first 2 conditions were true but I was out of leap cards. Take away UE and skitterleap and you have a very lackluster god.
Co13 is always useful. I'd consider it my 2nd upgrade if only to have a card that Mystical Disregard can't cancel. Yeah the Vermin Lord upgrade isn't great if he isn't deployed (though I believe in almost never summoning a warrior if I can summon the greater daemon instead; such insanely better stats for one more point). I guess it would depend on the board but I think clan rat upgrade would defend against Khorne better. It costs a minimum of 3 summoning points for the rat ogre upgrade to kick in at a region, and the very absolute most it could do is save you one dominion point in one or two region (even though with 2 hits you'd lose more in power points).
Well I burned out MOST of my hand. I was saving a Skitterleap for a couple of turns though, which was the reason why I felt like I didn't need the UE upgrade.
I was considering the Co13 but I felt like I didn't need to play very many cards. During the last round, all my PP was used to summon figures. The Co13 upgrade would be practically useless in that situation.
I didn't deploy the Vermin Lord before because in the early rounds I tried to double tick and dominated several regions with cheap Clan Rats.
Then there's the Clan Rat upgrade. I suppose it could be as effective as the Rat Ogre upgrade, but I didn't want to give Khorne free kills since he had the Bloodletter upgrade.
And that was my reasoning for choosing the Rat Ogre upgrade first time. I agree that the Under Empire upgrade in most cases is far superior, but given the situation it seemed like it would not be a good choice. In certain situations, the Rat Ogre upgrade can prove to be more useful than the others.
I guess the one thing I noticed about HR cards is that they're almost all instant effect and Mystical Disregard wouldn't do anything to them. (I think only Verminous Horde and Strength in Numbers were in danger of being canceled).
About 13th you need to fill up the 2 normal spots(or opponents can do it) before you can play in the disregard-safe spot right? Could get costly making an 'uncounterable' skitterleap.
Another thing I've seen twice now is half the rat's models trapped with hate in an important turn, might be wise to leave some models behind even if you get a wave of bonus moves.
Cough.
At this point in a Magic tournament I would call over the head judge....
It is indeed in the FAQ:
Q: Can Tzeentch use “Mystical Disregard” to play on top of a Horned Rat’s Chaos card that was played as the additional Chaos card in that region (allowed by the Horned Rat’s upgrade “Council of Thirteen”)?
A: No, Mystical Disregard only allows Tzeentch to play on top of a Chaos card that occupies one of the two card spaces in any region.
So perhaps check there yourself next time before looking for a judge.
So perhaps check there yourself next time before looking for a judge.
Ah, I did, didn't find it though.
Asking for the head judge is a standard thing in Magic tournaments, for me anyway.
About 1/3rd of the time my questions cause an over-ruling.
And often a whole lot of interested discussion.
Read the actual words on the cards ... this ruling is not right.
(Well, these words are from the excellent cheat sheets at the start of most games)
Mystical Disregard = Once per round, you may play a Chaos card on top of an opponent's Chaos card, canceling its effect. The card you play must have power equal to or greater than the card you cover
The Council of Thirteen - Once per round during the summoning phase, you may play a Chaos card into a region whose card spaces are full. (Place this third Chaos card near the other card spaces in the region.)
Mystical Disregard does not mention or care about this extra restriction that is not on the cards. The "Council" card is a card, just like any other. The fact it is in an unusual place is interesting, but is not stated as being an actual restriction. This FAQ is wrong.
The only reason Mystical disregard does not work on a Council of 13 card is a random arbitary ruling.
There is absolutely no actual rule to stop Tz playing over a council of 13 card. Just a random FAQ.
But, if the Head Judge has made a ruling, that is how we play.
I understand Head Judge rulings.
If the Head Judge ruled the other way, that is how we would play.
For example...
Q - Can Nurgle play cultists in Norsca?
A - No.
Q- well,.. why?
A - Because the FAQ says so.
OK. sure. It really doesn't seem like that in the rules...But, OK.
And, I know none of you will understand this Magic example, But....
Yesterday I cast a Duplicant on a Tarmogoyf.
The judge made a ruling.
The head judge over-ruled.
"Out of Game" has been changed to "Exile", because Exiled cards can and do still effect the game.
After that, he Lightning Helixed my Duplicant, and did not kill it, because the cards do not work like they should.
After that, he used a Grim Lavamancer to kill my Duplicant, because the cards do not work like they should.
The rules are explicit, but they are not how we played.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Well, by the letter of the law, you could say that MD's "you may play a chaos card" refers to how you normally play chaos cards, i.e. in one of the two slots. Since the "third" slot for Co13 is not available to other players, Tzeentch cannot "play a chaos card" there. I read it as "You may play a chaos card and if one of the slots is taken up by another player's card, too bad for them!"
By the spirit of the law, good lord isn't MD powerful enough already?
Don't... just don't. Mornington Crescent has been banned from these forums.
@Magic Geek I apologize for the snippy tone. But I personally am sticking with the FAQ ruling on that one; Mystical Disregard doesn't need to be made any stronger, and as stated by others the Council of 13 can't be used until the region has already been filled by other cards.
I'd forgotten about Tube since I moved out of G&T.
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jakobaggerLO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTOREDRegistered Userregular
I did think about that before I posted, but figured it was alright since it was just a hypothetical move, not like we're actually playing the game. But also if I am to have my first infraction, I guess this would be an alright occasion for it.
On a more serious note, I don't really see how the official FAQ and errata isn't part of the rules. Seems a weirdly protestant attitude to rule books. And super impractical with a company like Fantasy Flight that never manages to cover everything in their first printings of the rules.
That is indeed how it is stated in the FAQ, but I've always considered that silly and the house rule in my FAQ on the first page states it is active when no one else is present. I feel like the card is weak enough without dropping its utility even further.
For our games, unless the host declares otherwise in advance, the Verminous Horde is active when the Rat is the only power with figures in its region.
So,....the Head Judge is over-ruling the FAQ.
Nurgle has to change his move because Nurgle has read the FAQ.
But the Head Judge has crossed out those rules and written some different ones.
Rules not written on the cards, that have been crossed out, can get confusing.
That is why I sometimes ask the Head Judge.
...And why I abide by his decision.
@Darian I appreciate how hard I can be to answer in a reasonable tone. I tend to point out the emporer has a small set of genitalia, not just his lack of clothes.
Well, by the letter of the law, you could say that MD's "you may play a chaos card" refers to how you normally play chaos cards, i.e. in one of the two slots.
I do not get to add my own words or rules to this game. Neither do you.
You say MD refers to a card played in one of the two slots.
I say prove it without using a crayon. "Because the FAQ says so" is lovely, but that is not your line of argument.
And, as demonstrated, the FAQ is being over-ruled occasionally by the Head Judge.
Since the "third" slot for Co13 is not available to other players, Tzeentch cannot "play a chaos card" there.
Sure.
...Until there is a chaos card there. Then they can because they are playing ontop of a chaos card. MD does not have any words to say about card slots. MD does have words to say about Chaos cards. A chaos card placed using the Council of 13 is still a chaos card.
Therefore your argument is invalid.
By the spirit of the law, good lord isn't MD powerful enough already?
The power level of the card is not relevent to the words on the card, or the rules it plays with.
Openly changing a card/ability/rule because it is broken is an entirely different idea.
Mystical Disregard is not broken. It just aint.
It is an excellent, inventive, creative and thought provoking upgrade and I wish there were more like it.
Magic Geek on
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mi-go hunterOnce again I'm back in the lab.Cleaning my knives, ready for stabs.Registered Userregular
I was merely referring to the old childrens tale regarding the emporer has no clothes.
I do not see things the way everyone else does.
It causes me no end of problems.
My all time favorite Head Judge question can not even be asked here because it breaks the rules of the forum. It was asked in the final round of the Magic Nationals about 10 years ago by the most intense player I ever met.
"A small mind is easily filled with the glory of the emporer!" - WH40K
@Magic Geek -- I interpreted it the same way you did before the FAQ came out; by the words on the cards I'd say Mystical Disregard could cover a Council-played card. But in that case I didn't see any reason to go against the FAQ ruling.
As always, hosts/players are welcome to play it however they like, but should discuss any changes from our version of the FAQ before games begin. That FAQ is included in the first page here, as well as the first page of the games, for the purpose of keeping things clear.
Q: Can Tzeentch use “Mystical Disregard” to play on top of a Horned Rat’s Chaos card that was played as the additional Chaos card in that region (allowed by the Horned Rat’s upgrade “Council of Thirteen”)?
A: No, Mystical Disregard only allows Tzeentch to play on top of a Chaos card that occupies one of the two card spaces in any region.
Yep. As Magic Geek has pointed out, though, we (I?) do disagree with the FAQ on at least one other point (I prefer to let Verminous Horde trigger when no one else is present). Still, I don't see any reason to go against the FAQ for this interaction.
In the real world I played Nurgle using the expansion.
Then I played Nurgle using just base set.
My!
I prefer the cards from the expansion, now that I know how to use them.
The base game cards SUCK!
Sure, it didn't help that i did not draw a Rain of Pus, and only played 3xPlague Aura's, TOTAL.
But some of those cards are just USELESS.
Nurgle Expansion cards are SO much more interesting and satisfying to use properly.
In my opinion, the best thing about expansion, which is especially true concerning Nurgle, is that each god now has pretty much equal chances at racking up points for both domination and corruption, and also at dial advancements. Base cards aren't just weaker, they aren't as flexible and interesting to play.
Seriously, I guess Horned Rat is the best, most over-delivering expansion FFG ever made.
Posts
At this point in a Magic tournament I would call over the head judge....
Only the Horned Rat is allowed to use the "third" slot. Tzeentch wouldn't be able to place a card over the Horned Rat in the "third" slot if the former wasn't allowed to put cards there in the first place.
I guess it sounds good on paper, but what does it do really? Protecting cultists isn't as vital for the HR since all figures have the same cost effectiveness when it comes to ruination. At the very most it's going to preserve one point for domination in a contested region where you have both rat ogres and clan rats (or one extra point for ruination if there's only one hit against you). That seems like such a small boost for such a narrow condition. It seems like the appeal comes from being carried over from the mindset of other gods', where such an upgrade protecting cultists would be amazing.
Except under very rare circumstances, Under Empire seems like the mandatory first upgrade choice (I could see taking clan rat if you double tick first turn). I think every HR victory I've seen here went with that for the first upgrade. Is there a game where a winning HR went with something else?
Well, my motivations for picking the Rat Ogre upgrade as first pick in the rpt4 game were:
1) Under Empire would not serve me well at that point in the game. Most regions I wanted to hang around were adjacent anyway, and I had an annoying lack of Empty the Warrens chaos cards, so I couldn't place Skaven tokens where I wanted them.
2) It would serve as a slight protection against Khorne, who planted Bloodletters in a region I coveted.
3) It would save me one point in domination like you mentioned.
4) I looked over the other upgrades and they seemed less useful at that point in the game.
Co13: No, I had burned out most of my hand in the first two rounds anyway.
Clan Rat: That won't help against Khorne! He'll just butcher my rats as soon as they appear.
Vermin Lord: He wasn't in play at the time.
Under Empire: Reason #1
So yes, there are situations where the Rat Ogre upgrade looks more useful than the other available choices. Not sure if that was the wisest choice (I lost that game), but that was my thought process when I selected it as my first upgrade.
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1) The only time I'd say Under Empire isn't worth it is if all the ruining regions are adjacent, there are no skaven tokens, and you still have skitterleap cards. You said you burned out your hand (7 cards?) so no more skitterleap? HR hinges so much on the leap ability that I'd still probably take UE even if the first 2 conditions were true but I was out of leap cards. Take away UE and skitterleap and you have a very lackluster god.
Co13 is always useful. I'd consider it my 2nd upgrade if only to have a card that Mystical Disregard can't cancel. Yeah the Vermin Lord upgrade isn't great if he isn't deployed (though I believe in almost never summoning a warrior if I can summon the greater daemon instead; such insanely better stats for one more point). I guess it would depend on the board but I think clan rat upgrade would defend against Khorne better. It costs a minimum of 3 summoning points for the rat ogre upgrade to kick in at a region, and the very absolute most it could do is save you one dominion point in one or two region (even though with 2 hits you'd lose more in power points).
Well I burned out MOST of my hand. I was saving a Skitterleap for a couple of turns though, which was the reason why I felt like I didn't need the UE upgrade.
I was considering the Co13 but I felt like I didn't need to play very many cards. During the last round, all my PP was used to summon figures. The Co13 upgrade would be practically useless in that situation.
I didn't deploy the Vermin Lord before because in the early rounds I tried to double tick and dominated several regions with cheap Clan Rats.
Then there's the Clan Rat upgrade. I suppose it could be as effective as the Rat Ogre upgrade, but I didn't want to give Khorne free kills since he had the Bloodletter upgrade.
And that was my reasoning for choosing the Rat Ogre upgrade first time. I agree that the Under Empire upgrade in most cases is far superior, but given the situation it seemed like it would not be a good choice. In certain situations, the Rat Ogre upgrade can prove to be more useful than the others.
Yup, that's me on Steam.
If you are interested in playing, discussing, or hosting Arkham Horror, click here!
Another thing I've seen twice now is half the rat's models trapped with hate in an important turn, might be wise to leave some models behind even if you get a wave of bonus moves.
It is indeed in the FAQ:
So perhaps check there yourself next time before looking for a judge.
Okay, if anyone finds that http://appliednerditry.com/chaos has been blocked, try http://chaos.wallyaltman.com/chaos as an alternate.
Asking for the head judge is a standard thing in Magic tournaments, for me anyway.
About 1/3rd of the time my questions cause an over-ruling.
And often a whole lot of interested discussion.
Read the actual words on the cards ... this ruling is not right.
(Well, these words are from the excellent cheat sheets at the start of most games)
Mystical Disregard = Once per round, you may play a Chaos card on top of an opponent's Chaos card, canceling its effect. The card you play must have power equal to or greater than the card you cover
The Council of Thirteen - Once per round during the summoning phase, you may play a Chaos card into a region whose card spaces are full. (Place this third Chaos card near the other card spaces in the region.)
Mystical Disregard does not mention or care about this extra restriction that is not on the cards. The "Council" card is a card, just like any other. The fact it is in an unusual place is interesting, but is not stated as being an actual restriction. This FAQ is wrong.
The only reason Mystical disregard does not work on a Council of 13 card is a random arbitary ruling.
There is absolutely no actual rule to stop Tz playing over a council of 13 card. Just a random FAQ.
But, if the Head Judge has made a ruling, that is how we play.
I understand Head Judge rulings.
If the Head Judge ruled the other way, that is how we would play.
For example...
Q - Can Nurgle play cultists in Norsca?
A - No.
Q- well,.. why?
A - Because the FAQ says so.
OK. sure. It really doesn't seem like that in the rules...But, OK.
And, I know none of you will understand this Magic example, But....
Yesterday I cast a Duplicant on a Tarmogoyf.
The judge made a ruling.
The head judge over-ruled.
"Out of Game" has been changed to "Exile", because Exiled cards can and do still effect the game.
After that, he Lightning Helixed my Duplicant, and did not kill it, because the cards do not work like they should.
After that, he used a Grim Lavamancer to kill my Duplicant, because the cards do not work like they should.
The rules are explicit, but they are not how we played.
By the spirit of the law, good lord isn't MD powerful enough already?
@Magic Geek I apologize for the snippy tone. But I personally am sticking with the FAQ ruling on that one; Mystical Disregard doesn't need to be made any stronger, and as stated by others the Council of 13 can't be used until the region has already been filled by other cards.
Really?
I actually checked the CF FAQ and can't find anything related to a Mornington Crescent ban.
Darian I think you're just mad since Jakob and I lapped you on the Circle Line.
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/12672494#Comment_12672494
Yeah.
I'd forgotten about Tube since I moved out of G&T.
On a more serious note, I don't really see how the official FAQ and errata isn't part of the rules. Seems a weirdly protestant attitude to rule books. And super impractical with a company like Fantasy Flight that never manages to cover everything in their first printings of the rules.
So,....the Head Judge is over-ruling the FAQ.
Nurgle has to change his move because Nurgle has read the FAQ.
But the Head Judge has crossed out those rules and written some different ones.
Rules not written on the cards, that have been crossed out, can get confusing.
That is why I sometimes ask the Head Judge.
...And why I abide by his decision.
@Darian I appreciate how hard I can be to answer in a reasonable tone. I tend to point out the emporer has a small set of genitalia, not just his lack of clothes.
I do not get to add my own words or rules to this game. Neither do you.
You say MD refers to a card played in one of the two slots.
I say prove it without using a crayon.
"Because the FAQ says so" is lovely, but that is not your line of argument.
And, as demonstrated, the FAQ is being over-ruled occasionally by the Head Judge.
Sure.
...Until there is a chaos card there. Then they can because they are playing ontop of a chaos card. MD does not have any words to say about card slots. MD does have words to say about Chaos cards. A chaos card placed using the Council of 13 is still a chaos card.
Therefore your argument is invalid.
Read it any way you like, that is not what Mystical Disregard says.
MD does not have those words on it.
The power level of the card is not relevent to the words on the card, or the rules it plays with.
Openly changing a card/ability/rule because it is broken is an entirely different idea.
Mystical Disregard is not broken. It just aint.
It is an excellent, inventive, creative and thought provoking upgrade and I wish there were more like it.
Yup, that's me on Steam.
If you are interested in playing, discussing, or hosting Arkham Horror, click here!
I am sure Darian has an enormous set.
I was merely referring to the old childrens tale regarding the emporer has no clothes.
I do not see things the way everyone else does.
It causes me no end of problems.
My all time favorite Head Judge question can not even be asked here because it breaks the rules of the forum. It was asked in the final round of the Magic Nationals about 10 years ago by the most intense player I ever met.
"A small mind is easily filled with the glory of the emporer!" - WH40K
As always, hosts/players are welcome to play it however they like, but should discuss any changes from our version of the FAQ before games begin. That FAQ is included in the first page here, as well as the first page of the games, for the purpose of keeping things clear.
A: No, Mystical Disregard only allows Tzeentch to play on top of a Chaos card that occupies one of the two card spaces in any region.
Source
I'm just the new guy here anyways trying to help out!
Then I played Nurgle using just base set.
My!
I prefer the cards from the expansion, now that I know how to use them.
The base game cards SUCK!
Sure, it didn't help that i did not draw a Rain of Pus, and only played 3xPlague Aura's, TOTAL.
But some of those cards are just USELESS.
Nurgle Expansion cards are SO much more interesting and satisfying to use properly.
Seriously, I guess Horned Rat is the best, most over-delivering expansion FFG ever made.