Catelyn did not do anything in the king's law. If Tyrion had been a commoner Catelyn could have have done whatever she wanted, but Tyrion was a noble. I am not exactly sure how it works, but I assume Catelyn would need the King's or the hands permission to arrest Tyrion (lest westeros descend into anarchy). She did not have Robert's permission and Ned only claimed to have given her permission after the fact to cover for her. So yes kidnapping, because she had no legal authority to do what she did to him. And yes it was to kill him (leave him in a cell long enough for him to confess and then kill him), the only reason Tyrion got a trial was because he demanded one in public where Catelyn and Lysa could not deny it.
I'm not Westerosi legal scribe, so I'll go with "arrest" as she claims, as the books claim, etc. Arresting is not a synonym for kidnapping.
Who is going by the books now? Wow at this point I am done. I think you just proved who is being ridiculous in this conversation without my help.
The word for taking somebody in the name of the law is "arrest." Not "kidnap."
The law is handled by the king, but did she take him to kings landing? Nope.jpg.
Furthermore, she treat Jon like shit just because he happened to be a bastard. And the incident with Bran is only one example (Albiet the best one). Was she filled with grief when she wouldn't let Jon feast?
My impression was Jon was the only outlet for her rage about Ned cheating on her. So she focused all her anger from Ned to him.
I mean yeah, it's clearly displacement, but does he deserve it?
No. That's just a flaw she has. A trait which can be good in the GOT-verse since being a genuinely nice person in Westeros can cut your life expectancy significantly.
It would have only been legal if she took him to king's landing
Why would she need to take him to King's Landing? Especially when she believed her life was in danger on the roads.
Lords can try crimes, all justice does not get deferred to the King. Trying a noble before the King might be a good political consideration, if one wished to give the impression of impartiality, but I don't get the impression that it's the only legal option.
So your a hypocrite. Also I can get in my car and kidnap anybody I want as long as I make sure that I say the word "arrest". It does not matter what Catelyn says people always justify their actions.
That's the way the legal system in Westeros works. Tyrion even uses it to his advantage. She's not "saying" it, she's arresting him according to how their law works.
You've got a serious hate-on for her.
Tyrion takes advantage of the pretense of law that they have constructed to justify revenge against a Lannister
It would have only been legal if she took him to king's landing
Not even remotely accurate. The second scene in the show is Ned dispensing summary justice in the king's name. Where do you people come up with this stuff?
So your a hypocrite. Also I can get in my car and kidnap anybody I want as long as I make sure that I say the word "arrest". It does not matter what Catelyn says people always justify their actions.
That's the way the legal system in Westeros works. Tyrion even uses it to his advantage. She's not "saying" it, she's arresting him according to how their law works.
You've got a serious hate-on for her.
Tyrion takes advantage of the pretense of law that they have constructed to justify revenge against a Lannister
It would have only been legal if she took him to king's landing
Not even remotely accurate. The second scene in the show is Ned dispensing summary justice in the king's name. Where do you people come up with this stuff?
Ned is dispensing summary justice on a commoner who broke a law in his jurisdiction. He is warden of the north. Also the man Ned executed confessed.
Tyrion Lannister is a lord, the son of the warden of the west, and Catelyn isn't a lord and I've seen no evidence that any lady has any explicit legal powers, and even if she had all the powers of a highlord, she was at some inn 500 miles south of the Neck. The fact that she had to immediately flee to an impregnable fortress run by a crazy woman so as to not get swarmed by goldcloaks or lannisters seeking to retrieve Tyrion should be indicative of that.
Furthermore, if what Catelyn did was legal Ned wouldn't have had to lie to cover her ass to Jaime. Ned said that he ordered it, because as hand of the king he's the only one who can order another lord who isn't one of his bannermen seized. If what Catelyn did was legal Westeros wouldn't have enjoyed such a long period of peace, lords can't just seize other lords for no reason, at least not without starting a civil war.
And hey look what happened
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
So your a hypocrite. Also I can get in my car and kidnap anybody I want as long as I make sure that I say the word "arrest". It does not matter what Catelyn says people always justify their actions.
That's the way the legal system in Westeros works. Tyrion even uses it to his advantage. She's not "saying" it, she's arresting him according to how their law works.
You've got a serious hate-on for her.
Tyrion takes advantage of the pretense of law that they have constructed to justify revenge against a Lannister
It would have only been legal if she took him to king's landing
Not even remotely accurate. The second scene in the show is Ned dispensing summary justice in the king's name. Where do you people come up with this stuff?
Ned is dispensing summary justice on one of his subjects in his jurisdiction. He is warden of the north.
Tyrion Lannister is a lord, the son of the warden of the west, and Catelyn isn't a lord and I've seen no evidence that any lady has any explicit legal powers.
If what Catelyn did was legal Ned wouldn't have had to lie to cover her ass
The only argument that may work in your favor is that Tyrion is a noble, and maaaaybe there is something that protects nobles from being judged.
Tyrion was still in the north, the people in that bar believed that Cat had the right to arrest him, and she did.
Do you think every single person who breaks a law and needs to be judged gets dragged before a king or a warden of a cardinal direction? That would be insane! People are judged by lesser nobles (of which Cat totally is) all the damn time.
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So your a hypocrite. Also I can get in my car and kidnap anybody I want as long as I make sure that I say the word "arrest". It does not matter what Catelyn says people always justify their actions.
That's the way the legal system in Westeros works. Tyrion even uses it to his advantage. She's not "saying" it, she's arresting him according to how their law works.
You've got a serious hate-on for her.
Tyrion takes advantage of the pretense of law that they have constructed to justify revenge against a Lannister
It would have only been legal if she took him to king's landing
Not even remotely accurate. The second scene in the show is Ned dispensing summary justice in the king's name. Where do you people come up with this stuff?
Ned is dispensing summary justice on one of his subjects in his jurisdiction. He is warden of the north.
Tyrion Lannister is a lord, the son of the warden of the west, and Catelyn isn't a lord and I've seen no evidence that any lady has any explicit legal powers.
If what Catelyn did was legal Ned wouldn't have had to lie to cover her ass
The only argument that may work in your favor is that Tyrion is a noble, and maaaaybe there is something that protects nobles from being judged.
Tyrion was still in the north, the people in that bar believed that Cat had the right to arrest him, and she did.
Do you think every single person who breaks a law and needs to be judged gets dragged before a king or a warden of a cardinal direction? That would be insane! People are judged by lesser nobles (of which Cat totally is) all the damn time.
The legal jurisdiction of it is muddy.
They are south of the traditional boundries of the North when Cat orders Tyrion's arrest, so she has no authority in Ned's name at the Crossroads Inn. What she actually appeals to the men in the Inn is their allegence to her father Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun, and she apparently has the authority to do this.
After the arrest happens, she decides to head North East and go to her sister at the Eyrie. She does this because she seeks her sister's council on what happened to Jon Arryn and because her sister now sits as regent for her son as Warden of the East, making Lysa the highest ranking authority she can take Tyrion to that's within a short traveling distance.
Also the fact that it's the ass end of nowhere up a mountain, means less risk of anything untoward happening even in Ned didn't cover for her in King's Landing.
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
So your a hypocrite. Also I can get in my car and kidnap anybody I want as long as I make sure that I say the word "arrest". It does not matter what Catelyn says people always justify their actions.
That's the way the legal system in Westeros works. Tyrion even uses it to his advantage. She's not "saying" it, she's arresting him according to how their law works.
You've got a serious hate-on for her.
Tyrion takes advantage of the pretense of law that they have constructed to justify revenge against a Lannister
It would have only been legal if she took him to king's landing
Not even remotely accurate. The second scene in the show is Ned dispensing summary justice in the king's name. Where do you people come up with this stuff?
Ned is dispensing summary justice on one of his subjects in his jurisdiction. He is warden of the north.
Tyrion Lannister is a lord, the son of the warden of the west, and Catelyn isn't a lord and I've seen no evidence that any lady has any explicit legal powers.
If what Catelyn did was legal Ned wouldn't have had to lie to cover her ass
The only argument that may work in your favor is that Tyrion is a noble, and maaaaybe there is something that protects nobles from being judged.
Tyrion was still in the north, the people in that bar believed that Cat had the right to arrest him, and she did.
Do you think every single person who breaks a law and needs to be judged gets dragged before a king or a warden of a cardinal direction? That would be insane! People are judged by lesser nobles (of which Cat totally is) all the damn time.
No, I think women have no legal powers at all in Westeros and Catelyn was really reaching when she coaxed those guys into doing her bidding.
I don't buy that any noble can arrest any other noble legally, if they could it wouldn't have caused such a massive shitstorm. Tyrion isn't just some mook, he's the equivalent of Robb Stark, next in line to Casterly Rock and to be Warden of the West. It seems pretty obvious to me that Catelyn was hastily scratching together justification to arrest him on absurdly flimsy evidence in a blind grab at revenge.
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
I don't buy that any noble can arrest any other noble legally, if they could it wouldn't have caused such a massive shitstorm. Tyrion isn't just some mook, he's the equivalent of Robb Stark, next in line to Casterly Rock and to be Warden of the West. It seems pretty obvious to me that Catelyn was hastily scratching together justification to arrest him on absurdly flimsy evidence in a blind grab at revenge.
Nobles arrest other nobles all the time. What caused the shitstorm is the unmitigated pride of Tywin Lannister, who would rather break ALL THE LAWS than have his house seem weak.
How are you missing this stuff?
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
She thought she had solid evidence against him, I'm sure she thought 'arresting' him like that was the right thing to do. It didn't have the same vindinctive vibe as (insert a Cersai action here) so she was wrong, but not malicious. By the time they got to his trial, her face showed she knew how badly she had goofed, imo.
I don't buy that any noble can arrest any other noble legally, if they could it wouldn't have caused such a massive shitstorm. Tyrion isn't just some mook, he's the equivalent of Robb Stark, next in line to Casterly Rock and to be Warden of the West. It seems pretty obvious to me that Catelyn was hastily scratching together justification to arrest him on absurdly flimsy evidence in a blind grab at revenge.
Nobles arrest other nobles all the time. What caused the shitstorm is the unmitigated pride of Tywin Lannister, who would rather break ALL THE LAWS than have his house seem weak.
How are you missing this stuff?
Nobles arrest nobles underneath them, I'm not aware of an example of another noble seizing someone from another house outside their territory without the king's or the hand's orders
If Jaime had arrested Robb Stark at some inn in Dorne and took off to the nearest lannister friendly land that would have been the same thing
So your a hypocrite. Also I can get in my car and kidnap anybody I want as long as I make sure that I say the word "arrest". It does not matter what Catelyn says people always justify their actions.
That's the way the legal system in Westeros works. Tyrion even uses it to his advantage. She's not "saying" it, she's arresting him according to how their law works.
You've got a serious hate-on for her.
Tyrion takes advantage of the pretense of law that they have constructed to justify revenge against a Lannister
It would have only been legal if she took him to king's landing
Not even remotely accurate. The second scene in the show is Ned dispensing summary justice in the king's name. Where do you people come up with this stuff?
Ned is dispensing summary justice on one of his subjects in his jurisdiction. He is warden of the north.
Tyrion Lannister is a lord, the son of the warden of the west, and Catelyn isn't a lord and I've seen no evidence that any lady has any explicit legal powers.
If what Catelyn did was legal Ned wouldn't have had to lie to cover her ass
The only argument that may work in your favor is that Tyrion is a noble, and maaaaybe there is something that protects nobles from being judged.
Tyrion was still in the north, the people in that bar believed that Cat had the right to arrest him, and she did.
Do you think every single person who breaks a law and needs to be judged gets dragged before a king or a warden of a cardinal direction? That would be insane! People are judged by lesser nobles (of which Cat totally is) all the damn time.
No, I think women have no legal powers at all in Westeros and Catelyn was really reaching when she coaxed those guys into doing her bidding.
I don't buy that any noble can arrest any other noble legally, if they could it wouldn't have caused such a massive shitstorm. Tyrion isn't just some mook, he's the equivalent of Robb Stark, next in line to Casterly Rock and to be Warden of the West. It seems pretty obvious to me that Catelyn was hastily scratching together justification to arrest him on absurdly flimsy evidence in a blind grab at revenge.
I'm pretty sure that Catelyn, as the daughter of the Lord Paramount of the Trident, has a pretty good grasp on the legal system of Westeros. Moreover, I'm pretty sure that if what she was trying to do was blatantly illegal, the various men-at-arms, whose job title includes occasionally meting out day-to-day justice, wouldn't have backed her.
I should think after a whole season it has been resoundingly pointed out that Westeros is ruled by men, not laws, and that every character understands on at least some level "The Law" is subservient to "The Political Reality." Every arrest is a kidnapping and every law is what you have the power/influence to enforce.
I could swear half the episodes in Season 1 had Catelyn Stark repeating this lesson to her children, right up until she started ignoring it.
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BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
Tyrion isn't just some mook, he's the equivalent of Robb Stark, next in line to Casterly Rock and to be Warden of the West.
Technically Jaime is the Robb-equivilant.
Jamie can't be the Lord of his house, he's on the kingsguard and their vows are for life.
Pretty sure the show hasn't yet gone into the actual vows the Kingsguard makes yet.
I can't remember any exact quotes from the show, but the special features on the HBOGO episodes and/or Blu-Ray set detail them.
When Joffrey kicked whats-his-face The Awesome into retirement he made a point about the Kingsguard being a life commitment.
Also, near as I can figure, to the Lannisters the law is whatever they want it to be and doesn't apply if they don't like it because Tywin understands that the only laws that matter are the ones that are enforced. To the Starks the law is the law, even if you're the King. Jaime came after Ned because Catelyn arrested Tyrion while knowing full well that he was a Lannister and, as such, above the law. Cersei very clearly imparts this lesson to Joffrey on more than one occasion.
"The Kingsguard is a sworn brotherhood. Our vows are taken for life. Only death relieves us of our sacred trust."
―Lord Commander Barristan Selmy[src]
The Kingsguard is an elite formation of seven knights, supposedly the greatest and most skilled warriors in all of Westeros. Their duty is to protect the King on the Iron Throne and the royal family from harm at all times. Members of the Kingsguard are sworn for life and are forbidden from owning land, taking a wife and fathering children.
Members of the Kingsguard wear gold plate and scale armor with white detailing and white armor.
The Kingsguard is led by the Lord Commander, currently Jaime Lannister. The Lord Commander appears to have no marks on his armor to distinguish him from other members.
It seems pretty good at sticking with what was on tha teevees.
This, too is only as relevant as the enforcing authority though; Jaime Lannister is "The Kingslayer," he killed the last Targaryen King and betrayed his oath before the show even started. After that, being Heir to House Lannister isn't that hard to swing, and Tywin doesn't actually LIKE Tyrion that much. So once again, it's a question of complicated interpersonal politics which Cat hit with a sledgehammer in a fit of pique.
Tyrion isn't just some mook, he's the equivalent of Robb Stark, next in line to Casterly Rock and to be Warden of the West.
Technically Jaime is the Robb-equivilant.
Jamie can't be the Lord of his house, he's on the kingsguard and their vows are for life.
Pretty sure the show hasn't yet gone into the actual vows the Kingsguard makes yet.
"Your Grace, the Kingsguard is a sworn brotherhood. Our vows are taken for life. Only death relieves us of our sacred trust."
-Sir Barristan Selmy
And that isn't what the vows are...
What do you think the vows are for?
Probably nothing at all like the Night's Watch and they're just constricting bullshit. But the point was that quote did not tell us WHAT the vow entailed...
Where can I go to learn more about the legal system of this fictional world? Is there a law school in Winterfell and do they go by LSAT scores and GPA or LSAT alone?
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
Where can I go to learn more about the legal system of this fictional world? Is there a law school in Winterfell and do they go by LSAT scores and GPA or LSAT alone?
The legal system of the world has been eloquently summed up in every tailer for season 2, as well as a great speech by the spider an episode ago.
"Power resides where men believe it resides; it's a trick, a shadow on the wall"
Boom. all you need to know about the "legality" of anything in this world.
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To those who think wishing ill on Cat is out of the question, let me just say that is your opinion, and you are free to have it. However, some of us think hating a child their whole life for the circumstances of their birth to be pretty horrible. That is wicked step mother shit straight out of a fairy tale. Now I can understand her reason for it, but I can understand everyone's reason for every evil action done in this show. It does not suddenly make it okay that she obviously treated him like shit his whole life because of actions out of his control. He was a child and she is an adult. Again, you can explain why she would act like that, but the facts remain that there are plenty of people who watch this show who don't excuse such behavior. To many of us this is very personal, most likely from having a similar situation happen to us. Because of that fact, I find it completely reasonable to dislike Cat and even wish harm on her, she is a pretty despicable person in my mind.
Furthermore, grabbing Tyrion was a significantly idiotic move from an otherwise intelligently portrayed person. I can forgive the initial action of grabbing him, but his reaction to the charge and actions on the way to the Vale should have given her more than enough reason to question his guilt. He even says how stupid it would be for him to have used his own dagger, for obvious reasons. Then they get to her sister, who remember is really her only other reason for distrusting the Lannisters after Littlefinger. It doesn't take a genius to see that her sister is batshit, which totally puts into question her claims about the Lannisters killing Jon Arryn. To say the least we should have seen her seriously questioning her actions before even arriving at the Vale, let alone after. This doesn't even take into account the fact that her husband and daughters are all but completely at the Lannister's mercy in King's Landing. And finally, it has been pointed out that if she was really concerned with getting justice, she wouldn't have gone to a noble who is going to be biased towards the defendant. She could have just gone to the Twins if she really thought he had the evidence to convict, but no, she cowardly runs off to her sister.
On a follow up, I don't think any of us, book readers or otherwise, are knowledgeable enough to state what the laws in Westeros are regarding noble vs noble. However, I think it is pretty unlikely that one can just grab another on the road as long as they have enough force. If this was the case, then the kingdom would be in a never ending civil war between the noble houses, constantly sniping at each other and using the whatever flimsy evidence they can find to justify kidnapping and executing each other. I mean, seriously, if this was the case then Tryion was out of his mind to be traveling practically alone as he was. To think that what Cat did was even remotely close to legit would require the whole nation to be in a constant cold war, where no noble went anywhere without an army to back them up.
Lastly, I did feel like Cat was a little too snotty in the way she acted around Renly. Neither him nor Robb are anywhere close to a legitimate army as far as the law is concerned. Getting into a quibble about titles is pointless, especially when you are coming to ask for help. Sure, an agreement is mutually beneficial, but that doesn't mean you act in any way other than gracious. Lets face it, if Renly sees himself as the King of Westeros, than he probably isn't all that cool with Robb rebelling and calling himself King of the North. That is a huge amount of land that she is just assuming Renly is fine with giving up. Best put on a smile and see what Renly thinks of Robb's actions first, before insisting on titles. Suffice to say, if I had to choose an ambassador, I would keep Cat on the bench.
Again, heading to The Vale was the safest route Cat had before her, lest she be ridden down by the likes of Gregor Clegane, sent to recover Tywin's missing son.
Tyrion did not need to fear The Mountain crashing down on him because he is the one Tywin was willing to provoke a war to protect. Or rather, he is the one with the last name Tywin would invite a war to protect.
So your a hypocrite. Also I can get in my car and kidnap anybody I want as long as I make sure that I say the word "arrest". It does not matter what Catelyn says people always justify their actions.
That's the way the legal system in Westeros works. Tyrion even uses it to his advantage. She's not "saying" it, she's arresting him according to how their law works.
You've got a serious hate-on for her.
Tyrion takes advantage of the pretense of law that they have constructed to justify revenge against a Lannister
It would have only been legal if she took him to king's landing
According to what?
She took him to the nearest major Lord, who acts with the authority of the king in that area.
On a follow up, I don't think any of us, book readers or otherwise, are knowledgeable enough to state what the laws in Westeros are regarding noble vs noble. However, I think it is pretty unlikely that one can just grab another on the road as long as they have enough force. If this was the case, then the kingdom would be in a never ending civil war between the noble houses, constantly sniping at each other and using the whatever flimsy evidence they can find to justify kidnapping and executing each other. I mean, seriously, if this was the case then Tryion was out of his mind to be traveling practically alone as he was. To think that what Cat did was even remotely close to legit would require the whole nation to be in a constant cold war, where no noble went anywhere without an army to back them up.
Every noble has an army to back them up. Maybe not at their side, but they need only call their banners (or rather their house need only call their banners).
The law in Westeros is, for the most part, much like the law in any society.,..you can do precisely what you have the power to get away with. To some extent, you may also bind yourself through social custom or religion, or you may be bound because to exert power requires some support from among the people (who are also influenced by the same). But that's largely it.
Executing Ned Stark was, from what I can tell, perfectly legal. Now you've got two kings and a civil war. If Robb wins, then his "rebellion" was legal. Because history is written by the victor. If not? Well, more traitors to execute, no big deal. You may have enough force to nab Tyrion, and (momentarily) get away with it. But then do you have enough lasting force to deal with Tywin Lannister? Is the King going to have your head to placate him, or let him do as he will to your forces?
Sure, rule of law and blah blah blah...but that only goes as far as your power can enforce it. And is often tossed aside if convenient.
Tyrion isn't just some mook, he's the equivalent of Robb Stark, next in line to Casterly Rock and to be Warden of the West.
Technically Jaime is the Robb-equivilant.
Jamie can't be the Lord of his house, he's on the kingsguard and their vows are for life.
Pretty sure the show hasn't yet gone into the actual vows the Kingsguard makes yet.
"Your Grace, the Kingsguard is a sworn brotherhood. Our vows are taken for life. Only death relieves us of our sacred trust."
-Sir Barristan Selmy
And that isn't what the vows are...
What do you think the vows are for?
Probably nothing at all like the Night's Watch and they're just constricting bullshit. But the point was that quote did not tell us WHAT the vow entailed...
Through through deductive reasoning, we can assume if Barristan Selmy was a kingsguard, and the kingsguard was sworn to protect the king, and if that vows are for life then it means no having kids or being a lord in another manner.
Tyrion isn't just some mook, he's the equivalent of Robb Stark, next in line to Casterly Rock and to be Warden of the West.
Technically Jaime is the Robb-equivilant.
Jamie can't be the Lord of his house, he's on the kingsguard and their vows are for life.
Pretty sure the show hasn't yet gone into the actual vows the Kingsguard makes yet.
"Your Grace, the Kingsguard is a sworn brotherhood. Our vows are taken for life. Only death relieves us of our sacred trust."
-Sir Barristan Selmy
And that isn't what the vows are...
What do you think the vows are for?
Probably nothing at all like the Night's Watch and they're just constricting bullshit. But the point was that quote did not tell us WHAT the vow entailed...
Through through deductive reasoning, we can assume if Barristan Selmy was a kingsguard, and the kingsguard was sworn to protect the king, and if that vows are for life then it means no having kids or being a lord in another manner.
Yeah, with seven dudes charged with protecting the King and his family 24/7, and given that we do know the vow is for life, that doesn't seem to leave much room for a family or running a House.
So yes, we have definitely seen in the TV show that Jaime would not likely be the heir to Casterly Rock. The dots aren't hard to connect.
Between this and the "you must be judging Cat based on the books" I feel some people just need to chill out.
Again, heading to The Vale was the safest route Cat had before her, lest she be ridden down by the likes of Gregor Clegane, sent to recover Tywin's missing son.
Tyrion did not need to fear The Mountain crashing down on him because he is the one Tywin was willing to provoke a war to protect. Or rather, he is the one with the last name Tywin would invite a war to protect.
From the maps I am looking at, going to Riverrun would have been the clear choice as far as speed goes, if that was in fact her reasoning. It is the same distance, and doesn't suffer from being at the top of a freaking mountain.
In response to both you and McDermott, again, neither of us know what the law is. Sure, you can say might means right, and I would agree with you for the most part. However, I can't believe that the realm isn't in constant civil war if nobles can just snatch and execute each other. There has to be at least some agreed upon way of handling the disputes of the noble houses that doesn't require constant warfare, which is the natural conclusion of Cat's actions being legitimate. Sure you can point at Joff killing Ned as starting a civil war, but you are ignoring a ton a different factors there, for example, the question of Joff's legitimacy as king to start and the fact that Joff has shown zero sense when it comes to ruling a kingdom and not pissing off all the nobles.
In fact, what we do see in this show is Twyin and the Mountain going and messing up the Cat's family in the Riverlands for the exact reason I am saying. This would have to be a constant state of affairs if what Cat did was in any way legal or acceptable practice in solving noble disputes.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
Again, heading to The Vale was the safest route Cat had before her, lest she be ridden down by the likes of Gregor Clegane, sent to recover Tywin's missing son.
Tyrion did not need to fear The Mountain crashing down on him because he is the one Tywin was willing to provoke a war to protect. Or rather, he is the one with the last name Tywin would invite a war to protect.
From the maps I am looking at, going to Riverrun would have been the clear choice as far as speed goes, if that was in fact her reasoning. It is the same distance, and doesn't suffer from being at the top of a freaking mountain.
I'm pretty sure she says they're taking him to Winterfell, and then they go east. Riverrun would be on the way to Winterfell, unless I'm misremembering geography. It's possibly they should still be caught up with in the Riverlands, but if they go east to the Vale, with no one suspecting they went that way...
Sure you can point at Joff killing Ned as starting a civil war, but you are ignoring a ton a different factors there, for example, the question of Joff's legitimacy as king to start and the fact that Joff has shown zero sense when it comes to ruling a kingdom and not pissing off all the nobles.
Whether the new king is intelligent or not doesn't come into the equation for legitimacy. It's whether he has enough force and political connections to get on the throne. Joffrey is seen as legit since he is considered to be Robert's eldest son, and has enough powerful allies to back him up like House Lannister, the king's inner circle and the king's army. Cersei also destroyed a document that could have been used against him had Ned not given it up. His legitimacy is threatened by not being Robert's true heir but it's lessened since he's in the position to wield the greatest power. Stannis may be the rightful king along with Renly but with Joffrey already on the throne their only hope is to throw him off if they want to be king. This is information I've learned from the first season. I may be mistaken, though.
Again, heading to The Vale was the safest route Cat had before her, lest she be ridden down by the likes of Gregor Clegane, sent to recover Tywin's missing son.
Tyrion did not need to fear The Mountain crashing down on him because he is the one Tywin was willing to provoke a war to protect. Or rather, he is the one with the last name Tywin would invite a war to protect.
From the maps I am looking at, going to Riverrun would have been the clear choice as far as speed goes, if that was in fact her reasoning. It is the same distance, and doesn't suffer from being at the top of a freaking mountain.
I'm pretty sure she says they're taking him to Winterfell, and then they go east. Riverrun would be on the way to Winterfell, unless I'm misremembering geography. It's possibly they should still be caught up with in the Riverlands, but if they go east to the Vale, with no one suspecting they went that way...
Nope, Riverrun is to the west, and not on the way to Winterfell. Again, the only reason I point this out is to refute the claim she was concerned with speed when choosing her sister. Just given the geography, following a road along a river is defiantly going to be easier than going up a mountain trail. A mountain trail that is also full of barbarians, no less. Which means the chances of them being waylaid about equal. No, she wasn't concerned with justice, she wanted revenge, and screw the consequences to Ned and her daughters, let alone the common folk who were killed by Tywin and the Mountain in retribution.
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No. That's just a flaw she has. A trait which can be good in the GOT-verse since being a genuinely nice person in Westeros can cut your life expectancy significantly.
Lords can try crimes, all justice does not get deferred to the King. Trying a noble before the King might be a good political consideration, if one wished to give the impression of impartiality, but I don't get the impression that it's the only legal option.
Ned is dispensing summary justice on a commoner who broke a law in his jurisdiction. He is warden of the north. Also the man Ned executed confessed.
Tyrion Lannister is a lord, the son of the warden of the west, and Catelyn isn't a lord and I've seen no evidence that any lady has any explicit legal powers, and even if she had all the powers of a highlord, she was at some inn 500 miles south of the Neck. The fact that she had to immediately flee to an impregnable fortress run by a crazy woman so as to not get swarmed by goldcloaks or lannisters seeking to retrieve Tyrion should be indicative of that.
Furthermore, if what Catelyn did was legal Ned wouldn't have had to lie to cover her ass to Jaime. Ned said that he ordered it, because as hand of the king he's the only one who can order another lord who isn't one of his bannermen seized. If what Catelyn did was legal Westeros wouldn't have enjoyed such a long period of peace, lords can't just seize other lords for no reason, at least not without starting a civil war.
And hey look what happened
Tyrion was still in the north, the people in that bar believed that Cat had the right to arrest him, and she did.
Do you think every single person who breaks a law and needs to be judged gets dragged before a king or a warden of a cardinal direction? That would be insane! People are judged by lesser nobles (of which Cat totally is) all the damn time.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
[e] Tyrion isn't a Lord. Tywin is the Lord of House Pretty-On-The-Outside
There, that's better.
The legal jurisdiction of it is muddy.
They are south of the traditional boundries of the North when Cat orders Tyrion's arrest, so she has no authority in Ned's name at the Crossroads Inn. What she actually appeals to the men in the Inn is their allegence to her father Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun, and she apparently has the authority to do this.
After the arrest happens, she decides to head North East and go to her sister at the Eyrie. She does this because she seeks her sister's council on what happened to Jon Arryn and because her sister now sits as regent for her son as Warden of the East, making Lysa the highest ranking authority she can take Tyrion to that's within a short traveling distance.
Also the fact that it's the ass end of nowhere up a mountain, means less risk of anything untoward happening even in Ned didn't cover for her in King's Landing.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
No, I think women have no legal powers at all in Westeros and Catelyn was really reaching when she coaxed those guys into doing her bidding.
I don't buy that any noble can arrest any other noble legally, if they could it wouldn't have caused such a massive shitstorm. Tyrion isn't just some mook, he's the equivalent of Robb Stark, next in line to Casterly Rock and to be Warden of the West. It seems pretty obvious to me that Catelyn was hastily scratching together justification to arrest him on absurdly flimsy evidence in a blind grab at revenge.
Nobles arrest other nobles all the time. What caused the shitstorm is the unmitigated pride of Tywin Lannister, who would rather break ALL THE LAWS than have his house seem weak.
How are you missing this stuff?
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Technically Jaime is the Robb-equivilant.
Nobles arrest nobles underneath them, I'm not aware of an example of another noble seizing someone from another house outside their territory without the king's or the hand's orders
If Jaime had arrested Robb Stark at some inn in Dorne and took off to the nearest lannister friendly land that would have been the same thing
I'm pretty sure that Catelyn, as the daughter of the Lord Paramount of the Trident, has a pretty good grasp on the legal system of Westeros. Moreover, I'm pretty sure that if what she was trying to do was blatantly illegal, the various men-at-arms, whose job title includes occasionally meting out day-to-day justice, wouldn't have backed her.
I could swear half the episodes in Season 1 had Catelyn Stark repeating this lesson to her children, right up until she started ignoring it.
Technically speaking Tyrion is now Tywin's heir.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Jamie can't be the Lord of his house, he's on the kingsguard and their vows are for life.
Pretty sure the show hasn't yet gone into the actual vows the Kingsguard makes yet.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
"Your Grace, the Kingsguard is a sworn brotherhood. Our vows are taken for life. Only death relieves us of our sacred trust."
-Sir Barristan Selmy
When Joffrey kicked whats-his-face The Awesome into retirement he made a point about the Kingsguard being a life commitment.
Also, near as I can figure, to the Lannisters the law is whatever they want it to be and doesn't apply if they don't like it because Tywin understands that the only laws that matter are the ones that are enforced. To the Starks the law is the law, even if you're the King. Jaime came after Ned because Catelyn arrested Tyrion while knowing full well that he was a Lannister and, as such, above the law. Cersei very clearly imparts this lesson to Joffrey on more than one occasion.
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And that isn't what the vows are...
What do you think the vows are for?
*sigh*
TV Wiki sez this:
―Lord Commander Barristan Selmy[src]
The Kingsguard is an elite formation of seven knights, supposedly the greatest and most skilled warriors in all of Westeros. Their duty is to protect the King on the Iron Throne and the royal family from harm at all times. Members of the Kingsguard are sworn for life and are forbidden from owning land, taking a wife and fathering children.
Members of the Kingsguard wear gold plate and scale armor with white detailing and white armor.
The Kingsguard is led by the Lord Commander, currently Jaime Lannister. The Lord Commander appears to have no marks on his armor to distinguish him from other members.
It seems pretty good at sticking with what was on tha teevees.
This, too is only as relevant as the enforcing authority though; Jaime Lannister is "The Kingslayer," he killed the last Targaryen King and betrayed his oath before the show even started. After that, being Heir to House Lannister isn't that hard to swing, and Tywin doesn't actually LIKE Tyrion that much. So once again, it's a question of complicated interpersonal politics which Cat hit with a sledgehammer in a fit of pique.
edit: All this crap's depressing, time for an oldy-but-goody
She did it because she thought he attempted to murder her son. This is an established part of her oh-so-Tully character.
Of course, it does make her kind of dumb, to trust Littlefinger's word. Catelyn repeatedly shows horrible judgment. But stupidity is not malice.
Probably nothing at all like the Night's Watch and they're just constricting bullshit. But the point was that quote did not tell us WHAT the vow entailed...
The sspeech of vowing you ssnotulouss child!
Sorry.
The legal system of the world has been eloquently summed up in every tailer for season 2, as well as a great speech by the spider an episode ago.
"Power resides where men believe it resides; it's a trick, a shadow on the wall"
Boom. all you need to know about the "legality" of anything in this world.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Furthermore, grabbing Tyrion was a significantly idiotic move from an otherwise intelligently portrayed person. I can forgive the initial action of grabbing him, but his reaction to the charge and actions on the way to the Vale should have given her more than enough reason to question his guilt. He even says how stupid it would be for him to have used his own dagger, for obvious reasons. Then they get to her sister, who remember is really her only other reason for distrusting the Lannisters after Littlefinger. It doesn't take a genius to see that her sister is batshit, which totally puts into question her claims about the Lannisters killing Jon Arryn. To say the least we should have seen her seriously questioning her actions before even arriving at the Vale, let alone after. This doesn't even take into account the fact that her husband and daughters are all but completely at the Lannister's mercy in King's Landing. And finally, it has been pointed out that if she was really concerned with getting justice, she wouldn't have gone to a noble who is going to be biased towards the defendant. She could have just gone to the Twins if she really thought he had the evidence to convict, but no, she cowardly runs off to her sister.
On a follow up, I don't think any of us, book readers or otherwise, are knowledgeable enough to state what the laws in Westeros are regarding noble vs noble. However, I think it is pretty unlikely that one can just grab another on the road as long as they have enough force. If this was the case, then the kingdom would be in a never ending civil war between the noble houses, constantly sniping at each other and using the whatever flimsy evidence they can find to justify kidnapping and executing each other. I mean, seriously, if this was the case then Tryion was out of his mind to be traveling practically alone as he was. To think that what Cat did was even remotely close to legit would require the whole nation to be in a constant cold war, where no noble went anywhere without an army to back them up.
Lastly, I did feel like Cat was a little too snotty in the way she acted around Renly. Neither him nor Robb are anywhere close to a legitimate army as far as the law is concerned. Getting into a quibble about titles is pointless, especially when you are coming to ask for help. Sure, an agreement is mutually beneficial, but that doesn't mean you act in any way other than gracious. Lets face it, if Renly sees himself as the King of Westeros, than he probably isn't all that cool with Robb rebelling and calling himself King of the North. That is a huge amount of land that she is just assuming Renly is fine with giving up. Best put on a smile and see what Renly thinks of Robb's actions first, before insisting on titles. Suffice to say, if I had to choose an ambassador, I would keep Cat on the bench.
Tyrion did not need to fear The Mountain crashing down on him because he is the one Tywin was willing to provoke a war to protect. Or rather, he is the one with the last name Tywin would invite a war to protect.
According to what?
She took him to the nearest major Lord, who acts with the authority of the king in that area.
Every noble has an army to back them up. Maybe not at their side, but they need only call their banners (or rather their house need only call their banners).
The law in Westeros is, for the most part, much like the law in any society.,..you can do precisely what you have the power to get away with. To some extent, you may also bind yourself through social custom or religion, or you may be bound because to exert power requires some support from among the people (who are also influenced by the same). But that's largely it.
Executing Ned Stark was, from what I can tell, perfectly legal. Now you've got two kings and a civil war. If Robb wins, then his "rebellion" was legal. Because history is written by the victor. If not? Well, more traitors to execute, no big deal. You may have enough force to nab Tyrion, and (momentarily) get away with it. But then do you have enough lasting force to deal with Tywin Lannister? Is the King going to have your head to placate him, or let him do as he will to your forces?
Sure, rule of law and blah blah blah...but that only goes as far as your power can enforce it. And is often tossed aside if convenient.
Even in modern times, in the real world.
Through through deductive reasoning, we can assume if Barristan Selmy was a kingsguard, and the kingsguard was sworn to protect the king, and if that vows are for life then it means no having kids or being a lord in another manner.
Yeah, with seven dudes charged with protecting the King and his family 24/7, and given that we do know the vow is for life, that doesn't seem to leave much room for a family or running a House.
So yes, we have definitely seen in the TV show that Jaime would not likely be the heir to Casterly Rock. The dots aren't hard to connect.
Between this and the "you must be judging Cat based on the books" I feel some people just need to chill out.
From the maps I am looking at, going to Riverrun would have been the clear choice as far as speed goes, if that was in fact her reasoning. It is the same distance, and doesn't suffer from being at the top of a freaking mountain.
In response to both you and McDermott, again, neither of us know what the law is. Sure, you can say might means right, and I would agree with you for the most part. However, I can't believe that the realm isn't in constant civil war if nobles can just snatch and execute each other. There has to be at least some agreed upon way of handling the disputes of the noble houses that doesn't require constant warfare, which is the natural conclusion of Cat's actions being legitimate. Sure you can point at Joff killing Ned as starting a civil war, but you are ignoring a ton a different factors there, for example, the question of Joff's legitimacy as king to start and the fact that Joff has shown zero sense when it comes to ruling a kingdom and not pissing off all the nobles.
In fact, what we do see in this show is Twyin and the Mountain going and messing up the Cat's family in the Riverlands for the exact reason I am saying. This would have to be a constant state of affairs if what Cat did was in any way legal or acceptable practice in solving noble disputes.
I'm pretty sure she says they're taking him to Winterfell, and then they go east. Riverrun would be on the way to Winterfell, unless I'm misremembering geography. It's possibly they should still be caught up with in the Riverlands, but if they go east to the Vale, with no one suspecting they went that way...
Whether the new king is intelligent or not doesn't come into the equation for legitimacy. It's whether he has enough force and political connections to get on the throne. Joffrey is seen as legit since he is considered to be Robert's eldest son, and has enough powerful allies to back him up like House Lannister, the king's inner circle and the king's army. Cersei also destroyed a document that could have been used against him had Ned not given it up. His legitimacy is threatened by not being Robert's true heir but it's lessened since he's in the position to wield the greatest power. Stannis may be the rightful king along with Renly but with Joffrey already on the throne their only hope is to throw him off if they want to be king. This is information I've learned from the first season. I may be mistaken, though.
Nope, Riverrun is to the west, and not on the way to Winterfell. Again, the only reason I point this out is to refute the claim she was concerned with speed when choosing her sister. Just given the geography, following a road along a river is defiantly going to be easier than going up a mountain trail. A mountain trail that is also full of barbarians, no less. Which means the chances of them being waylaid about equal. No, she wasn't concerned with justice, she wanted revenge, and screw the consequences to Ned and her daughters, let alone the common folk who were killed by Tywin and the Mountain in retribution.