The Descendants is not the worst movie ever made, but it may be the most subversive, and if you think it is one of the best you need to rethink your life choices.
@Xenogear, hey, fair enough. When I was asking questions I was actually asking questions, because I'm not sure how I feel about movies like Fear and Loathing (although I do know I dislike Fear and Loathing). Productive conversation was had, more thinking will have to be done?
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
The Descendants is not the worst movie ever made, but it may be the most subversive, and if you think it is one of the best you need to rethink your life choices.
There was a review someone here linked to that summed this up very nicely. I'll try to look for it when I get home.
As for its subversiveness, I'm not sure I agree. I think Payne made exactly the kind of film most people think they saw, I just think anyone who liked it for those reasons are indeed horrible, horrible people.
If he was being subversive, I mean . . . goddamn.
EDIT: Sorry, Asty, you already posted that link. Good work.
Atomika on
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
edited April 2012
yepyep!
I think TLP meant subversive as in, at face value, this is a movie about a dude who loves, then loses his wife, but learns to be a better parent in the process. When in actuality the movie is about a dude who's a terrible husband, then loses his wife, and doesn't learn anything in the process. (spoiler alert?)
Astaereth on
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I think TLP meant subversive as in, at face value, this is a movie about a dude who loves, then loses his wife, but learns to be a better parent in the process. When in actuality the movie is about a dude who's a terrible husband, then loses his wife, and doesn't learn anything in the process. (spoiler alert?)
Worse, it's about a guy who goes through all of that and THINKS he's become a better parent, but actually fails to even realize how big an entitled dickbag he still is and how awful a parent he continues to be.
-Pretty enjoyable, although it wasn't dense enough to be truly great.
-Oddly predictable in a lot of places (like the forcefield death), although maybe that's just me knowing how deconstructionism works
-Really really reminded me of Buffy season 4. Plus I really enjoyed that it was basically a movie about the SCP Foundation.
-I loved how all the various monsters weren't just well-thought out, with their own stories, but that their actions managed to express those stories eloquently--like the masked people who, on being freed, immediately set about burning their victims to death, or the ballerina girl dancing in blood--even the ones that weren't direct references (like the not-Cenobites), like the Merman, suggested the stories behind them (how is he breathing in air? he breathes blood through his gills! of course!). Phenomenal work from everyone involved with that.
-Also great was the characterization of the villains and their facility, which was good enough to get your identification to waver uncertainly between the two groups. If they hadn't been drawn as well (and as relatable) as they were, your instincts would have been "fuck the end of the world, I want the kids to live", while for me it was ambiguous throughout most of the movie.
-If the movie has a weak spot, it's the characterization of the upstairs people, which was thin even by actual horror movie standards. Oh, and also the score was completely unmemorable.
-Thematically it was pretty intricate, from dealing with the male-gaze (notice women present in party scene, but the shot where they're all waiting for blondie to take her top off was all men) to using Sigourney Weaver (like Paul, Galaxy Quest, The Village, etc) to represent "the old guard" in sci-fi/horror to the indictment of the audience (an oldie but a goodie, going at least back to 1960 with Peeping Tom).
-By the end, it felt like a manifesto of sorts--a loving acknowledgment of the classic tropes followed by, "Okay horror movies, time to move on to something fucking NEW--we're not going to follow the establishment rules, no matter what may result". As a writer it's tremendously exciting--makes me want to go write stories about photography students stalked by eyeless killers and mythical animals that infest urban society before turning murderous and surveillance systems that go from creepy to sentient to violently jealous--makes me eager to see all manner of new horror for new people. This is it, Cabin in the Woods is saying, we have reached the end of the line; the genre as it stands now died, came back, was killed once more, and now it only shambles where it used to run. There are new ways to do things, and it's time to set all the monsters loose, to purge the system and begin again.
About one of your points:
It seems the force field death was only predictable because at the very beginning of the movie, we saw an eagle fly into the forcefield and die. As soon as they started to talk about finding a way across the ravine, I knew it would happen. Are you saying you knew someone would die in that manner before that scene?
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
-Pretty enjoyable, although it wasn't dense enough to be truly great.
-Oddly predictable in a lot of places (like the forcefield death), although maybe that's just me knowing how deconstructionism works
-Really really reminded me of Buffy season 4. Plus I really enjoyed that it was basically a movie about the SCP Foundation.
-I loved how all the various monsters weren't just well-thought out, with their own stories, but that their actions managed to express those stories eloquently--like the masked people who, on being freed, immediately set about burning their victims to death, or the ballerina girl dancing in blood--even the ones that weren't direct references (like the not-Cenobites), like the Merman, suggested the stories behind them (how is he breathing in air? he breathes blood through his gills! of course!). Phenomenal work from everyone involved with that.
-Also great was the characterization of the villains and their facility, which was good enough to get your identification to waver uncertainly between the two groups. If they hadn't been drawn as well (and as relatable) as they were, your instincts would have been "fuck the end of the world, I want the kids to live", while for me it was ambiguous throughout most of the movie.
-If the movie has a weak spot, it's the characterization of the upstairs people, which was thin even by actual horror movie standards. Oh, and also the score was completely unmemorable.
-Thematically it was pretty intricate, from dealing with the male-gaze (notice women present in party scene, but the shot where they're all waiting for blondie to take her top off was all men) to using Sigourney Weaver (like Paul, Galaxy Quest, The Village, etc) to represent "the old guard" in sci-fi/horror to the indictment of the audience (an oldie but a goodie, going at least back to 1960 with Peeping Tom).
-By the end, it felt like a manifesto of sorts--a loving acknowledgment of the classic tropes followed by, "Okay horror movies, time to move on to something fucking NEW--we're not going to follow the establishment rules, no matter what may result". As a writer it's tremendously exciting--makes me want to go write stories about photography students stalked by eyeless killers and mythical animals that infest urban society before turning murderous and surveillance systems that go from creepy to sentient to violently jealous--makes me eager to see all manner of new horror for new people. This is it, Cabin in the Woods is saying, we have reached the end of the line; the genre as it stands now died, came back, was killed once more, and now it only shambles where it used to run. There are new ways to do things, and it's time to set all the monsters loose, to purge the system and begin again.
About one of your points:
It seems the force field death was only predictable because at the very beginning of the movie, we saw an eagle fly into the forcefield and die. As soon as they started to talk about finding a way across the ravine, I knew it would happen. Are you saying you knew someone would die in that manner before that scene?
No;
I got the impression that the film was hoping we'd forgotten its earlier foreshadowing, as films often do. Pulling off "surprising yet inevitable" is sometimes a matter of disguising or distracting from your Chekov guns. It's possible I'm mistaken, and that you're supposed to see the death coming as soon as they talk about jumping the ravine. I felt like the heroic music felt more like set-up than ironic commentary though.
-Pretty enjoyable, although it wasn't dense enough to be truly great.
-Oddly predictable in a lot of places (like the forcefield death), although maybe that's just me knowing how deconstructionism works
-Really really reminded me of Buffy season 4. Plus I really enjoyed that it was basically a movie about the SCP Foundation.
-I loved how all the various monsters weren't just well-thought out, with their own stories, but that their actions managed to express those stories eloquently--like the masked people who, on being freed, immediately set about burning their victims to death, or the ballerina girl dancing in blood--even the ones that weren't direct references (like the not-Cenobites), like the Merman, suggested the stories behind them (how is he breathing in air? he breathes blood through his gills! of course!). Phenomenal work from everyone involved with that.
-Also great was the characterization of the villains and their facility, which was good enough to get your identification to waver uncertainly between the two groups. If they hadn't been drawn as well (and as relatable) as they were, your instincts would have been "fuck the end of the world, I want the kids to live", while for me it was ambiguous throughout most of the movie.
-If the movie has a weak spot, it's the characterization of the upstairs people, which was thin even by actual horror movie standards. Oh, and also the score was completely unmemorable.
-Thematically it was pretty intricate, from dealing with the male-gaze (notice women present in party scene, but the shot where they're all waiting for blondie to take her top off was all men) to using Sigourney Weaver (like Paul, Galaxy Quest, The Village, etc) to represent "the old guard" in sci-fi/horror to the indictment of the audience (an oldie but a goodie, going at least back to 1960 with Peeping Tom).
-By the end, it felt like a manifesto of sorts--a loving acknowledgment of the classic tropes followed by, "Okay horror movies, time to move on to something fucking NEW--we're not going to follow the establishment rules, no matter what may result". As a writer it's tremendously exciting--makes me want to go write stories about photography students stalked by eyeless killers and mythical animals that infest urban society before turning murderous and surveillance systems that go from creepy to sentient to violently jealous--makes me eager to see all manner of new horror for new people. This is it, Cabin in the Woods is saying, we have reached the end of the line; the genre as it stands now died, came back, was killed once more, and now it only shambles where it used to run. There are new ways to do things, and it's time to set all the monsters loose, to purge the system and begin again.
About one of your points:
It seems the force field death was only predictable because at the very beginning of the movie, we saw an eagle fly into the forcefield and die. As soon as they started to talk about finding a way across the ravine, I knew it would happen. Are you saying you knew someone would die in that manner before that scene?
No;
I got the impression that the film was hoping we'd forgotten its earlier foreshadowing, as films often do. Pulling off "surprising yet inevitable" is sometimes a matter of disguising or distracting from your Chekov guns. It's possible I'm mistaken, and that you're supposed to see the death coming as soon as they talk about jumping the ravine. I felt like the heroic music felt more like set-up than ironic commentary though.
I agree with valhalla, I was giggling the entire time he was preparing to jump. I understand what you're saying, but I feel like if they wanted you to forget about the force field they would just have shown it shimmering in the beginning, or had one of the puppeteers mention it in a throw away line of dialogue, something subtle. Instead, they show you a hawk crashing into the force field, with no warning before hand, which makes it pretty jarring and difficult to forget.
This post, in my mind, is the last word on the Descendants.
I've gotta say, I coudn't even get through that article. The author might have had some good points to make, but he's got bad ADHD. He jumps into things he's only going to discuss later or leaves thoughts half finished. He fails to give any clear reference or context and barely elaborates on any of his claims. Blech.
"More fish for Kunta!"
--LeVar Burton
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
-Pretty enjoyable, although it wasn't dense enough to be truly great.
-Oddly predictable in a lot of places (like the forcefield death), although maybe that's just me knowing how deconstructionism works
-Really really reminded me of Buffy season 4. Plus I really enjoyed that it was basically a movie about the SCP Foundation.
-I loved how all the various monsters weren't just well-thought out, with their own stories, but that their actions managed to express those stories eloquently--like the masked people who, on being freed, immediately set about burning their victims to death, or the ballerina girl dancing in blood--even the ones that weren't direct references (like the not-Cenobites), like the Merman, suggested the stories behind them (how is he breathing in air? he breathes blood through his gills! of course!). Phenomenal work from everyone involved with that.
-Also great was the characterization of the villains and their facility, which was good enough to get your identification to waver uncertainly between the two groups. If they hadn't been drawn as well (and as relatable) as they were, your instincts would have been "fuck the end of the world, I want the kids to live", while for me it was ambiguous throughout most of the movie.
-If the movie has a weak spot, it's the characterization of the upstairs people, which was thin even by actual horror movie standards. Oh, and also the score was completely unmemorable.
-Thematically it was pretty intricate, from dealing with the male-gaze (notice women present in party scene, but the shot where they're all waiting for blondie to take her top off was all men) to using Sigourney Weaver (like Paul, Galaxy Quest, The Village, etc) to represent "the old guard" in sci-fi/horror to the indictment of the audience (an oldie but a goodie, going at least back to 1960 with Peeping Tom).
-By the end, it felt like a manifesto of sorts--a loving acknowledgment of the classic tropes followed by, "Okay horror movies, time to move on to something fucking NEW--we're not going to follow the establishment rules, no matter what may result". As a writer it's tremendously exciting--makes me want to go write stories about photography students stalked by eyeless killers and mythical animals that infest urban society before turning murderous and surveillance systems that go from creepy to sentient to violently jealous--makes me eager to see all manner of new horror for new people. This is it, Cabin in the Woods is saying, we have reached the end of the line; the genre as it stands now died, came back, was killed once more, and now it only shambles where it used to run. There are new ways to do things, and it's time to set all the monsters loose, to purge the system and begin again.
About one of your points:
It seems the force field death was only predictable because at the very beginning of the movie, we saw an eagle fly into the forcefield and die. As soon as they started to talk about finding a way across the ravine, I knew it would happen. Are you saying you knew someone would die in that manner before that scene?
No;
I got the impression that the film was hoping we'd forgotten its earlier foreshadowing, as films often do. Pulling off "surprising yet inevitable" is sometimes a matter of disguising or distracting from your Chekov guns. It's possible I'm mistaken, and that you're supposed to see the death coming as soon as they talk about jumping the ravine. I felt like the heroic music felt more like set-up than ironic commentary though.
I agree with valhalla, I was giggling the entire time he was preparing to jump. I understand what you're saying, but I feel like if they wanted you to forget about the force field they would just have shown it shimmering in the beginning, or had one of the puppeteers mention it in a throw away line of dialogue, something subtle. Instead, they show you a hawk crashing into the force field, with no warning before hand, which makes it pretty jarring and difficult to forget.
It's a tricky balance, though. Because if they hadn't foreshadowed the way they did, it would've felt way too out of nowhere. But yeah, I agree, I was just waiting for it to happen.
This post, in my mind, is the last word on the Descendants.
I've gotta say, I coudn't even get through that article. The author might have had some good points to make, but he's got bad ADHD. He jumps into things he's only going to discuss later or leaves thoughts half finished. He fails to give any clear reference or context and barely elaborates on any of his claims. Blech.
It was written in an interesting style, for sure, and at times the author did tangentialize a little too much, but I thought the strategy of quoting the imaginary readers/writer/whomever was an effective if unorthodox way of bringing up concrete arguments.
Thanks for bringing it up, Ast and Atomic Ross. I'm glad to understand exactly why I didn't like the movie even though it was trying its hardest into manipulating us into liking it.
I watched Inception over the weekend, for the first time since it was in theaters (so second time overall).
Not gonna lie, for me that's just about a flawless movie. I'm no expert on visual art in the slightest, but I was completely entertained for every moment.
And the music and sound, just amazing. How the "get ready to wake up music" with its repeating two horn notes was slowed down throughout the entire movie just blew me away, as I'd never noticed that before.
Yep, I like Inception.
It's been 5 pages.... don't hurt me. I felt like there was a major hole dealing with the mcguffin of the totem, and theres nothing either way to tell if we just have to accept it, or if we are supposed to question it. And if we are supposed to question it, I think the entire movie falls apart. Alot of the film deals with the subtlety (or not so much with the train) of your subconscious effecting the dream world they were in. A totem is something only you know about in the dream world, so noone can trick you into thinking its reality. But your subconscious could easily manipulate the totem (in this case, the top) to fall over while you willed it to keep spinning, thus tricking yourself into being stuck in the dream world. But I also think that if this was the case, we would of seen the top fall over in the ending and everyone would of had a much different discussion.
I also talked to alot of people who said they hated the fact that the smash through the bridge wasn't the jolt, "it wasn't hard enough" wasn't good enough for them. I was willing to let that one go.
Inception has almost as many plot holes as the newest Star Trek movie but that doesn't mean it's not fantastic. I'm not sure about your point, though: the totem would at least tell you whether you're in someone else's dream, so we should at least accept it as useful for that purpose.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
The totem was supposed to be so you could tell if you're in someone else's dream iirc. I don't think they ever pretended it'd be useful in your own dream.
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OtakuD00DCan I hit the exploding rocks?San DiegoRegistered Userregular
Saw Lockout today. I thought it was a hilarious throwback to 80's action movies. It was Die Hard + Con Air... IN SPAAAAAAAAACE
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
The totem was supposed to be so you could tell if you're in someone else's dream iirc. I don't think they ever pretended it'd be useful in your own dream.
Exactly. If it's your dream, you can control the dream to a certain extent, so you would know that way. And the whole point of a totem is to not know what another person's totem is supposed to do. No one knows what side Arthur's weighted die will land on except him.
What I DO think is kind of a goof is the fact that Cobb explains the totem to Ariadne, which is exactly what he's not supposed to do for the totem to work. But hey, it was necessary for us to understand it, and you could argue he decided to trust her or whatever.
Yet chains in Hell, not realms expect.
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DeadfallI don't think you realize just how rich he is.In fact, I should put on a monocle.Registered Userregular
edited April 2012
Saw Cabin. I loved it because it was basically
SCP the movie.
Deadfall on
xbl - HowYouGetAnts
steam - WeAreAllGeth
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
EDIT: Just so I'm not being a totally glib goosefaced mothergooser, are you opposed to 'The Hobbit' films? We do know what becomes of Bilbo and the ring.
MalReynolds on
"A new take on the epic fantasy genre... Darkly comic, relatable characters... twisted storyline."
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
Anyone who wants a prequel to a film like Cabin in the Woods has missed the point of Cabin in the Woods.
No.
Not really.
Huuuuge movie spoiler:
The point would be to spend more time in the established world and have it fleshed out, even if it gets destroyed.
MalReynolds on
"A new take on the epic fantasy genre... Darkly comic, relatable characters... twisted storyline."
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
Anyone who wants a prequel to a film like Cabin in the Woods has missed the point of Cabin in the Woods.
No.
Not really.
Huuuuge movie spoiler:
The point would be to spend more time in the established world and have it fleshed out, even if it gets destroyed.
Yes.
Yeah really.
We've seen the prequel. It's called The Evil Dead. It's called Friday the Thirteenth. And so on...
That's not a prequel. They'd have to show its origin.
Uh, Jason was a kid who drowned while inattentive goobers made out and smoked pot.
Ash and his friends stumbled on a recording of the book of the dead.
Them's the origins.
I know those origins, but they aren't working for the organization in CITW's keeping the Elder Gods from destroying the universe. Their expy's are only employees created to keep the Elder Gods away.
I know those origins, but they aren't working for the organization in CITW's keeping the Elder Gods from destroying the universe. Their expy's are only employees created to keep the Elder Gods away.
So you want an origin of the
facility workers?
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Posts
@Xenogear, hey, fair enough. When I was asking questions I was actually asking questions, because I'm not sure how I feel about movies like Fear and Loathing (although I do know I dislike Fear and Loathing). Productive conversation was had, more thinking will have to be done?
There was a review someone here linked to that summed this up very nicely. I'll try to look for it when I get home.
As for its subversiveness, I'm not sure I agree. I think Payne made exactly the kind of film most people think they saw, I just think anyone who liked it for those reasons are indeed horrible, horrible people.
If he was being subversive, I mean . . . goddamn.
EDIT: Sorry, Asty, you already posted that link. Good work.
I think TLP meant subversive as in, at face value, this is a movie about a dude who loves, then loses his wife, but learns to be a better parent in the process. When in actuality the movie is about a dude who's a terrible husband, then loses his wife, and doesn't learn anything in the process. (spoiler alert?)
Worse, it's about a guy who goes through all of that and THINKS he's become a better parent, but actually fails to even realize how big an entitled dickbag he still is and how awful a parent he continues to be.
Here's hoping it gets the tweens reading The Hobbit.
Man, I have a thread and everything for this. Where have you been?
About one of your points:
No;
I've gotta say, I coudn't even get through that article. The author might have had some good points to make, but he's got bad ADHD. He jumps into things he's only going to discuss later or leaves thoughts half finished. He fails to give any clear reference or context and barely elaborates on any of his claims. Blech.
--LeVar Burton
And by silly, I mean stupid.
It's a tricky balance, though. Because if they hadn't foreshadowed the way they did, it would've felt way too out of nowhere. But yeah, I agree, I was just waiting for it to happen.
It was written in an interesting style, for sure, and at times the author did tangentialize a little too much, but I thought the strategy of quoting the imaginary readers/writer/whomever was an effective if unorthodox way of bringing up concrete arguments.
Thanks for bringing it up, Ast and Atomic Ross. I'm glad to understand exactly why I didn't like the movie even though it was trying its hardest into manipulating us into liking it.
It's been 5 pages.... don't hurt me. I felt like there was a major hole dealing with the mcguffin of the totem, and theres nothing either way to tell if we just have to accept it, or if we are supposed to question it. And if we are supposed to question it, I think the entire movie falls apart. Alot of the film deals with the subtlety (or not so much with the train) of your subconscious effecting the dream world they were in. A totem is something only you know about in the dream world, so noone can trick you into thinking its reality. But your subconscious could easily manipulate the totem (in this case, the top) to fall over while you willed it to keep spinning, thus tricking yourself into being stuck in the dream world. But I also think that if this was the case, we would of seen the top fall over in the ending and everyone would of had a much different discussion.
I also talked to alot of people who said they hated the fact that the smash through the bridge wasn't the jolt, "it wasn't hard enough" wasn't good enough for them. I was willing to let that one go.
All it needed was someone telling Snow they thought he was dead and it would have been Escape from New York In Space!
Exactly. If it's your dream, you can control the dream to a certain extent, so you would know that way. And the whole point of a totem is to not know what another person's totem is supposed to do. No one knows what side Arthur's weighted die will land on except him.
What I DO think is kind of a goof is the fact that Cobb explains the totem to Ariadne, which is exactly what he's not supposed to do for the totem to work. But hey, it was necessary for us to understand it, and you could argue he decided to trust her or whatever.
xbl - HowYouGetAnts
steam - WeAreAllGeth
YES
xbl - HowYouGetAnts
steam - WeAreAllGeth
I'm thinking
Though, V/H/S is coming out at some point this year.
Something something journey something something destination.
EDIT: Just so I'm not being a totally glib goosefaced mothergooser, are you opposed to 'The Hobbit' films? We do know what becomes of Bilbo and the ring.
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor
My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
Anyone who wants a prequel to a film like Cabin in the Woods has missed the point of Cabin in the Woods.
No.
Not really.
Huuuuge movie spoiler:
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor
My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
Yes.
Yeah really.
Uh, Jason was a kid who drowned while inattentive goobers made out and smoked pot.
Ash and his friends stumbled on a recording of the book of the dead.
Them's the origins.
So you want an origin of the
In other news, if anyone with Netflix is looking for some fun stuff to stream, I just watched Withnail & I the other day and that was pretty great.