I don't remember him being bad. I remember him being as you say, bland and inoffensive. But so bland as to be offensive. Anything else I can't remember because he was so un-memorable.
Thing is, the real Harry Kim died early on in the show's running.
I'm not shitting you, either. He actually died. The Harry Kim we saw for the rest of a series was a quantum clone of him. After that happened, Kim being insanely bland became a much more prominent feature.
I imagine that this Harry Kim was like a mirror-verse Kim. The real Kim was sometimes funny and straight laced. Quantum Kim comes from the Boringverse, a place where telling bad jokes constantly and being as bland as possible are the most desirable traits an officer can have.
Poor guy just didn't know how to fit in, that's all.
Or, the guy could just be a royal douche in real life and the writers hated him. It was like O'Brien Syndrome. Only played up not because the actor was good at showing suffering, but because they hated the actor in question.
Archonex on
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
They hated Colm Meaney?
Also, I'm still working my way thru season 5 of DS9 and really? Odo's father figure/finder/experimenter-on is named Dr. Moreau?
As in, Colm Meaney was really good at acting out suffering and so the DS9 writers wrote tons of scenes for O'Brien to suffer in.
Whereas the Voyager writers may have hated Garrett Wang and just didn't bother writing for him.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
Didn't Kim die more than just the once? I seem to recall his dying and coming back being almost as much of a thing as when Daniel Jackson kept getting Ascended and then coming back.
Also, Harry came up with the idea to beam a proton torpedo onto a borg vessel, basically giving him the first real confirmed borg cube kill.
Ironically this involved setting a time delay on the detonation circuit, effectively turning the device into exactly what they should have used on the Array…I imagine that if Kim ever made the connection that his idea could have had him home in a week, if only he'd had it five years earlier, his head would explode.
Timers are technology so advanced they probably require lots of technobabble
I mean in DS9 all their bombs designed to make things blow up had timers, but Janeway had them all removed when Voyager left spacedock. "What? if it doesn't require any sacrifice what good is it"
I remember reading a long time ago that some writer got in their head that Janeway should be bipolar, so maybe some of her blunders are intentional. I don't know what's wrong with her, but she's really, honestly not a very good captain. She's all over the place with how she handles similar situations, she doesn't take advice well, and I'm not even sure she understands what the Prime Directive is the way she chooses to apply it when it's worth breaking and break it when things are best left the fuck alone. Not setting a timer on those two torpedoes ends up being kind of minor next to some of the shit she does later.
My personal theory is that her original mission was an intentional shithole to keep her out of trouble. She was sent to deal with the Maquis, who only managed to be a moderate annoyance to the Cardassians, who in turn were an enemy the Federation rarely took seriously until the Dominion came in and upgraded their fleet. So they probably weren't a huge threat to an Intrepid-class ship, and being generally considered terrorists by both sides there wouldn't be a huge amount of fallout if she blew them all to hell.
Except for her hair, I've hardly ever been put out by Janeway. The only time I can remember her being particularly dumb is when she was taken in by that charming hedonism planet guy.
Oh, and IMHO the worst episode by FAR is the one where they all turn out to be slime copies of the real Voyager, and as they start to break down everything gets extremely bleak and desperate until they all just die. At the very end, real Voyager floats through a cloud of inert space slime and goes "Hm?"
Didn't Kim die more than just the once? I seem to recall his dying and coming back being almost as much of a thing as when Daniel Jackson kept getting Ascended and then coming back.
Originally they were planning to kill Harry when Seven of Nine came aboard but then for some stupid reason they decided to keep Harry and got rid of Kes instead. You know, because I guess they thought having two attractive female characters on the show would turn people off.
Didn't Kim die more than just the once? I seem to recall his dying and coming back being almost as much of a thing as when Daniel Jackson kept getting Ascended and then coming back.
Originally they were planning to kill Harry when Seven of Nine came aboard but then for some stupid reason they decided to keep Harry and got rid of Kes instead. You know, because I guess they thought having two attractive female characters on the show would turn people off.
Because Garrett Wang got voted sexiest man alive or some such.
So they didn't want to get rid of him anymore. But they had to get rid of someone, because having a new character otherwise would mean that they wouldn't have time to give everyone proper character development and good storylines. Kes was the target because everyone hates Neelix, so they figured that getting rid of Neelix's much-beloved girlfriend made sense.
Kes: I'm evolving to a higher life form and will blow up the ship!
Janeway: Let's give you one of our thousand shuttlecraft so you can depart!
Neelix: Can I say goodbye to-
*ZZAP*
Kes: Hmm, I feel better now.
Janeway: What about Neelix?
Kes: Neel-who?
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
Except for her hair, I've hardly ever been put out by Janeway. The only time I can remember her being particularly dumb is when she was taken in by that charming hedonism planet guy.
Oh, and IMHO the worst episode by FAR is the one where they all turn out to be slime copies of the real Voyager, and as they start to break down everything gets extremely bleak and desperate until they all just die. At the very end, real Voyager floats through a cloud of inert space slime and goes "Hm?"
That episode was the worst thing. They addressed a ton of different plots, then killed everyone off.
Then, when it became apparent that everyone was going to die, their last ditch effort to tell the real Voyager of their efforts so that they'd be remembered failed miserably. Cue Voyager floating through a cloud of dust that originally represented the lives of an entire ship full of people.
Did they stop to investigate, like they always do? You know, maybe fix whatever the hell went wrong and try to reconstitute these people so they could get back home? Hell no. Janeway needs her some plot contrivances coffee. Tuvok, rev up the engines and go to warp nine!
It's like they were trying to do a "I can do depressing too!" DS9 style episode, then forgot that this is Star Trek. Reviving an artificial lifeform from the dead is kind of childs play for these people. Data was decapitated and sat in an alien cave for several hundred years. Pretty sure reconstituting the ship out of space dust ranks pretty low on the list of things to come back from in the setting.
Didn't Kim die more than just the once? I seem to recall his dying and coming back being almost as much of a thing as when Daniel Jackson kept getting Ascended and then coming back.
Originally they were planning to kill Harry when Seven of Nine came aboard but then for some stupid reason they decided to keep Harry and got rid of Kes instead. You know, because I guess they thought having two attractive female characters on the show would turn people off.
Because Garrett Wang got voted sexiest man alive or some such.
So they didn't want to get rid of him anymore. But they had to get rid of someone, because having a new character otherwise would mean that they wouldn't have time to give everyone proper character development and good storylines. Kes was the target because everyone hates Neelix, so they figured that getting rid of Neelix's much-beloved girlfriend made sense.
Rumor has it Rick Berman is racist against Asians and always tries to shuffle them down into roles that could be described as, "random extra who isn't allowed to talk." But that's just a rumor.
Sometimes I like to imagine how the other shows would have handled "The Thaw" instead of Voyager. Assuming each respective captain gets to say "I knooooow", I've come up with:
TOS
Hostage: Chekhov
Negotiator: Spock (Vulcans aren't compatible with the mind scanner because [plot])
TNG
Hostage: Geordi or Troi
Negotiator: Data (Natch)
ENT
I'm not sure if the script would work with these guys, since I don't think they'd have the tech to do the switcheroo at the end. Shran being the negotiator would be fun.
I think of all these, seeing Garak spar with the Clown would be the most enticing.
I want to see Garak verbally sparring with Tyrion from game of thrones
I know it's impossible, and I have no idea in what situation it would occur or the mechanics behind it, but damnit I want it to happen
Except for her hair, I've hardly ever been put out by Janeway. The only time I can remember her being particularly dumb is when she was taken in by that charming hedonism planet guy.
Oh, and IMHO the worst episode by FAR is the one where they all turn out to be slime copies of the real Voyager, and as they start to break down everything gets extremely bleak and desperate until they all just die. At the very end, real Voyager floats through a cloud of inert space slime and goes "Hm?"
Why is that bad? It's bleak and tragic, yes, but that doesn't make it bad.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
Sometimes I like to imagine how the other shows would have handled "The Thaw" instead of Voyager. Assuming each respective captain gets to say "I knooooow", I've come up with:
TOS
Hostage: Chekhov
Negotiator: Spock (Vulcans aren't compatible with the mind scanner because [plot])
TNG
Hostage: Geordi or Troi
Negotiator: Data (Natch)
ENT
I'm not sure if the script would work with these guys, since I don't think they'd have the tech to do the switcheroo at the end. Shran being the negotiator would be fun.
I think of all these, seeing Garak spar with the Clown would be the most enticing.
I want to see Garak verbally sparring with Tyrion from game of thrones
I know it's impossible, and I have no idea in what situation it would occur or the mechanics behind it, but damnit I want it to happen
There just needs to be a species that is small on average, and one of their diplomats/spies is played by Peter Dinklage.
Kes: I'm evolving to a higher life form and will blow up the ship!
Janeway: Let's give you one of our thousand shuttlecraft so you can depart!
Neelix: Can I say goodbye to-
*ZZAP*
Kes: Hmm, I feel better now.
Janeway: What about Neelix?
Kes: Neel-who?
Except for her hair, I've hardly ever been put out by Janeway. The only time I can remember her being particularly dumb is when she was taken in by that charming hedonism planet guy.
Oh, and IMHO the worst episode by FAR is the one where they all turn out to be slime copies of the real Voyager, and as they start to break down everything gets extremely bleak and desperate until they all just die. At the very end, real Voyager floats through a cloud of inert space slime and goes "Hm?"
Why is that bad? It's bleak and tragic, yes, but that doesn't make it bad.
The episode isnt bad, but its continuity bugs me. They resolve a couple of plot points and then it turns out you werent watching the real Voyager. How am I supposed to know what episodes were real Voyager and which were clone Voyager? Do I just assume every episode since they left that planet is all Clone Voyager?
Except for her hair, I've hardly ever been put out by Janeway. The only time I can remember her being particularly dumb is when she was taken in by that charming hedonism planet guy.
Oh, and IMHO the worst episode by FAR is the one where they all turn out to be slime copies of the real Voyager, and as they start to break down everything gets extremely bleak and desperate until they all just die. At the very end, real Voyager floats through a cloud of inert space slime and goes "Hm?"
Why is that bad? It's bleak and tragic, yes, but that doesn't make it bad.
The episode isnt bad, but its continuity bugs me. They resolve a couple of plot points and then it turns out you werent watching the real Voyager. How am I supposed to know what episodes were real Voyager and which were clone Voyager? Do I just assume every episode since they left that planet is all Clone Voyager?
No. They very explicitly cover that in the episode. Long before you know WHAT is wrong you begin to notice something is wrong because continuity (what little Voyager had) wasn't matching up.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Except for her hair, I've hardly ever been put out by Janeway. The only time I can remember her being particularly dumb is when she was taken in by that charming hedonism planet guy.
Oh, and IMHO the worst episode by FAR is the one where they all turn out to be slime copies of the real Voyager, and as they start to break down everything gets extremely bleak and desperate until they all just die. At the very end, real Voyager floats through a cloud of inert space slime and goes "Hm?"
Why is that bad? It's bleak and tragic, yes, but that doesn't make it bad.
The episode isnt bad, but its continuity bugs me. They resolve a couple of plot points and then it turns out you werent watching the real Voyager. How am I supposed to know what episodes were real Voyager and which were clone Voyager? Do I just assume every episode since they left that planet is all Clone Voyager?
No. They very explicitly cover that in the episode. Long before you know WHAT is wrong you begin to notice something is wrong because continuity (what little Voyager had) wasn't matching up.
Do they? I'll admit its been a while since Ive seen the episode and I was probably fucking around on the internet while I watched it...guess I missed that.
Except for her hair, I've hardly ever been put out by Janeway. The only time I can remember her being particularly dumb is when she was taken in by that charming hedonism planet guy.
Oh, and IMHO the worst episode by FAR is the one where they all turn out to be slime copies of the real Voyager, and as they start to break down everything gets extremely bleak and desperate until they all just die. At the very end, real Voyager floats through a cloud of inert space slime and goes "Hm?"
Why is that bad? It's bleak and tragic, yes, but that doesn't make it bad.
The episode isnt bad, but its continuity bugs me. They resolve a couple of plot points and then it turns out you werent watching the real Voyager. How am I supposed to know what episodes were real Voyager and which were clone Voyager? Do I just assume every episode since they left that planet is all Clone Voyager?
No. They very explicitly cover that in the episode. Long before you know WHAT is wrong you begin to notice something is wrong because continuity (what little Voyager had) wasn't matching up.
Do they? I'll admit its been a while since Ive seen the episode and I was probably fucking around on the internet while I watched it...guess I missed that.
Right off the bat, you have Lieutenant Paris instead of Ensign Paris in the opening scene. Also, I think they mention in a Captain's Log entry something about a "new baby", which makes you think "wha? When was this?"
Didn't Kim die more than just the once? I seem to recall his dying and coming back being almost as much of a thing as when Daniel Jackson kept getting Ascended and then coming back.
Originally they were planning to kill Harry when Seven of Nine came aboard but then for some stupid reason they decided to keep Harry and got rid of Kes instead. You know, because I guess they thought having two attractive female characters on the show would turn people off.
Because Garrett Wang got voted sexiest man alive or some such.
So they didn't want to get rid of him anymore. But they had to get rid of someone, because having a new character otherwise would mean that they wouldn't have time to give everyone proper character development and good storylines. Kes was the target because everyone hates Neelix, so they figured that getting rid of Neelix's much-beloved girlfriend made sense.
Anybody can look bad, if you post a picture of them past 40, without makeup, unkempt hair and in bad light. See photos of Janeway, then vs now.
It's not just extremely bleak, it's extremely bleak for no reason. Like, that last scene in the meeting room where like five of them are left and besides all the melted faces you can tell their brains are really coming apart now? At that point they've reached terminal UGH and from there they just kill everyone off and erase all record of their existence.
I mean, it did what it was going for really well, but WHY?!
It's not just extremely bleak, it's extremely bleak for no reason. Like, that last scene in the meeting room where like five of them are left and besides all the melted faces you can tell their brains are really coming apart now? At that point they've reached terminal UGH and from there they just kill everyone off and erase all record of their existence.
I mean, it did what it was going for really well, but WHY?!
So you don't like bleak. That's fine. But it doesn't make it bad.
It's not just extremely bleak, it's extremely bleak for no reason. Like, that last scene in the meeting room where like five of them are left and besides all the melted faces you can tell their brains are really coming apart now? At that point they've reached terminal UGH and from there they just kill everyone off and erase all record of their existence.
I mean, it did what it was going for really well, but WHY?!
So you don't like bleak. That's fine. But it doesn't make it bad.
Well that's why it bothers me. It doesn't bother you at all that the entire episode, every inch of conflict and emotion, was all completely pointless? That kind of thing pisses people off.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
It's not just extremely bleak, it's extremely bleak for no reason. Like, that last scene in the meeting room where like five of them are left and besides all the melted faces you can tell their brains are really coming apart now? At that point they've reached terminal UGH and from there they just kill everyone off and erase all record of their existence.
I mean, it did what it was going for really well, but WHY?!
So you don't like bleak. That's fine. But it doesn't make it bad.
Well that's why it bothers me. It doesn't bother you at all that the entire episode, every inch of conflict and emotion, was all completely pointless? That kind of thing pisses people off.
If a bum dies in a sewer, does anybody care?
I like it specifically for how pointless the lives of the sludge voyager were. It's not like we went a whole season and then "Lol, not the real crew" happened.
So, what you're saying is that what you experienced in the simulation
didn't really happen or even matter.
Yes. That's correct.
So it was sort of like a dream.
No. It was a simulation.
Yes, but theoretically, if someone watched the events
of that simulation from start to finish,
only to find out that none of it really happened,
I mean, you don't think that would be just like a giant middle finger to them?
Well hopefully, they would have enjoyed the ride.
I don't know, man. I think you piss a lot of people off that way.
Well, at least it didn't end like The Sopranos,
where it just cut to black in midsent- end credits
I remember watching that episode, ironically my first thought was, "wait a minute, at the end of the sludge episode that created them the copies knew exactly what they were and DIDN'T get a copy of the voyager, what in Newton's Name?" Followed by, "man, I know the writers are trying to be edgy and cool what with the characters all having to face the chilling force of inevitability and hopelessness as some sort of character-defining moment but this is freaking Voyager, land of Injun Joe and Tits McFetishFuel."
Still, whatever. Not like I didn't know what I was getting the moment I saw it was Janeway on deck.
It's not just extremely bleak, it's extremely bleak for no reason. Like, that last scene in the meeting room where like five of them are left and besides all the melted faces you can tell their brains are really coming apart now? At that point they've reached terminal UGH and from there they just kill everyone off and erase all record of their existence.
I mean, it did what it was going for really well, but WHY?!
So you don't like bleak. That's fine. But it doesn't make it bad.
Well that's why it bothers me. It doesn't bother you at all that the entire episode, every inch of conflict and emotion, was all completely pointless? That kind of thing pisses people off.
Why?
It wasn't all pointless. You watched it, you were swept up by it, that's all that counts. That in universe it all amounted to not is what makes it tragic. It's what makes it effect YOU more and so it counts.
Didn't Kim die more than just the once? I seem to recall his dying and coming back being almost as much of a thing as when Daniel Jackson kept getting Ascended and then coming back.
Originally they were planning to kill Harry when Seven of Nine came aboard but then for some stupid reason they decided to keep Harry and got rid of Kes instead. You know, because I guess they thought having two attractive female characters on the show would turn people off.
Because Garrett Wang got voted sexiest man alive or some such.
So they didn't want to get rid of him anymore. But they had to get rid of someone, because having a new character otherwise would mean that they wouldn't have time to give everyone proper character development and good storylines. Kes was the target because everyone hates Neelix, so they figured that getting rid of Neelix's much-beloved girlfriend made sense.
Anybody can look bad, if you post a picture of them past 40, without makeup, unkempt hair and in bad light. See photos of Janeway, then vs now.
I think Jennifer Lien wanted to leave, because she was sick of acting.
And because of that, we were robbed of Kes/Seven slash fic and were instead tormented with Janeway/Seven slash fic and the even more heinous Chakotay/Seven romance that somehow made it into the show.
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
In the middle of season 5 still of DS9 and is it just me or is Sisko looking a little plump? And acting crazier than ever. It's almost like he went to the Shatner School of Pronunciation in a couple of these episodes.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
edited April 2012
See, I rEad that as "pimp" and was about to agree before I realised. You guys are a terrible influence, you know that?
In the middle of season 5 still of DS9 and is it just me or is Sisko looking a little plump? And acting crazier than ever. It's almost like he went to the Shatner School of Pronunciation in a couple of these episodes.
Is it before or after he shaved his head completely bald instead of just almost bald? He did put on some weight in the middle seasons. As for crazy, Sisko only gets crazier through the series - he's in a pretty brainfucking situation, worshiped by one culture, loyal to another, and constantly fucked with by a third one which is also transdimensional and you can never quite be sure if they really understand what's going on outside the wormhole or not. I don't want to spoil things too much, but eventually he has an honest to god psychotic episode complete with hallucinations and complete disconnect from reality.
The Shatner talk escalates with seasons, though he never quite gets to the point where it breaks the flow of dialog. In the last few seasons he also seems to go to the Chandler Bing school of pitch oscillation. If he gets excited his voice can cover two octaves in a single sentence.
Hevach on
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
In the middle of season 5 still of DS9 and is it just me or is Sisko looking a little plump? And acting crazier than ever. It's almost like he went to the Shatner School of Pronunciation in a couple of these episodes.
Is it before or after he shaved his head completely bald instead of just almost bald? He did put on some weight in the middle seasons. As for crazy, Sisko only gets crazier through the series - he's in a pretty brainfucking situation, worshiped by one culture, loyal to another, and constantly fucked with by a third one which is also transdimensional and you can never quite be sure if they really understand what's going on outside the wormhole or not. I don't want to spoil things too much, but eventually he has an honest to god psychotic episode
Heh
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
I've spent all day looking up Star Trek ship info online. I would watch a series dedicated to ship combat.
So I'm watching DS9 and I'm on The Siege of AR-557. That was some heavy stuff, with Quark doing an amazing job (per usual). And then I get to the next episode where Ducat is in charge of Not-Heaven's Gate. The whiplash there was just kind of weird. I mean, the episode worked, sure. It reintroduces Ducat, shows that he's actually serious about this, and that he's got people who buy it. But, man... AR-557 was just so amazing, that I kind of feel bad for the other episode.
Honestly, I think everything after Waltz just hurt Dukat's character. They changed him from a complex, multifaceted villain to practically a mustache-twirler. It would've been better if he died or was just written out of the show by putting him in a Federation prison.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
So I'm watching DS9 and I'm on The Siege of AR-557. That was some heavy stuff, with Quark doing an amazing job (per usual). And then I get to the next episode where Ducat is in charge of Not-Heaven's Gate. The whiplash there was just kind of weird. I mean, the episode worked, sure. It reintroduces Ducat, shows that he's actually serious about this, and that he's got people who buy it. But, man... AR-557 was just so amazing, that I kind of feel bad for the other episode.
Honestly, I think everything after Waltz just hurt Dukat's character. They changed him from a complex, multifaceted villain to practically a mustache-twirler. It would've been better if he died or was just written out of the show by putting him in a Federation prison.
I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread that Waltz was him realizing--with some prodding from Sisko, nice job there Captain--that he was lying to himself. He was, at best, an anti-villain, the lesser of two evils, and in any case a bad guy.
So rather than pull back from the abyss and try to redeem himself, he went batshit crazy, deciding it worked for him and that he would stop being the bad guy who was too weak-willed to be Evil.
It is perhaps not as good a character development as he could have had, but I don't think it was negating or derailing the character.
Posts
Thing is, the real Harry Kim died early on in the show's running.
I'm not shitting you, either. He actually died. The Harry Kim we saw for the rest of a series was a quantum clone of him. After that happened, Kim being insanely bland became a much more prominent feature.
I imagine that this Harry Kim was like a mirror-verse Kim. The real Kim was sometimes funny and straight laced. Quantum Kim comes from the Boringverse, a place where telling bad jokes constantly and being as bland as possible are the most desirable traits an officer can have.
Poor guy just didn't know how to fit in, that's all.
Or, the guy could just be a royal douche in real life and the writers hated him. It was like O'Brien Syndrome. Only played up not because the actor was good at showing suffering, but because they hated the actor in question.
Also, I'm still working my way thru season 5 of DS9 and really? Odo's father figure/finder/experimenter-on is named Dr. Moreau?
Whereas the Voyager writers may have hated Garrett Wang and just didn't bother writing for him.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
Timers are technology so advanced they probably require lots of technobabble
I mean in DS9 all their bombs designed to make things blow up had timers, but Janeway had them all removed when Voyager left spacedock. "What? if it doesn't require any sacrifice what good is it"
My personal theory is that her original mission was an intentional shithole to keep her out of trouble. She was sent to deal with the Maquis, who only managed to be a moderate annoyance to the Cardassians, who in turn were an enemy the Federation rarely took seriously until the Dominion came in and upgraded their fleet. So they probably weren't a huge threat to an Intrepid-class ship, and being generally considered terrorists by both sides there wouldn't be a huge amount of fallout if she blew them all to hell.
Oh, and IMHO the worst episode by FAR is the one where they all turn out to be slime copies of the real Voyager, and as they start to break down everything gets extremely bleak and desperate until they all just die. At the very end, real Voyager floats through a cloud of inert space slime and goes "Hm?"
Originally they were planning to kill Harry when Seven of Nine came aboard but then for some stupid reason they decided to keep Harry and got rid of Kes instead. You know, because I guess they thought having two attractive female characters on the show would turn people off.
Because Garrett Wang got voted sexiest man alive or some such.
So they didn't want to get rid of him anymore. But they had to get rid of someone, because having a new character otherwise would mean that they wouldn't have time to give everyone proper character development and good storylines. Kes was the target because everyone hates Neelix, so they figured that getting rid of Neelix's much-beloved girlfriend made sense.
Kes: I'm evolving to a higher life form and will blow up the ship!
Janeway: Let's give you one of our thousand shuttlecraft so you can depart!
Neelix: Can I say goodbye to-
*ZZAP*
Kes: Hmm, I feel better now.
Janeway: What about Neelix?
Kes: Neel-who?
That episode was the worst thing. They addressed a ton of different plots, then killed everyone off.
Then, when it became apparent that everyone was going to die, their last ditch effort to tell the real Voyager of their efforts so that they'd be remembered failed miserably. Cue Voyager floating through a cloud of dust that originally represented the lives of an entire ship full of people.
Did they stop to investigate, like they always do? You know, maybe fix whatever the hell went wrong and try to reconstitute these people so they could get back home? Hell no. Janeway needs her some plot contrivances coffee. Tuvok, rev up the engines and go to warp nine!
It's like they were trying to do a "I can do depressing too!" DS9 style episode, then forgot that this is Star Trek. Reviving an artificial lifeform from the dead is kind of childs play for these people. Data was decapitated and sat in an alien cave for several hundred years. Pretty sure reconstituting the ship out of space dust ranks pretty low on the list of things to come back from in the setting.
Rumor has it Rick Berman is racist against Asians and always tries to shuffle them down into roles that could be described as, "random extra who isn't allowed to talk." But that's just a rumor.
I want to see Garak verbally sparring with Tyrion from game of thrones
I know it's impossible, and I have no idea in what situation it would occur or the mechanics behind it, but damnit I want it to happen
Why is that bad? It's bleak and tragic, yes, but that doesn't make it bad.
There just needs to be a species that is small on average, and one of their diplomats/spies is played by Peter Dinklage.
:^:
The episode isnt bad, but its continuity bugs me. They resolve a couple of plot points and then it turns out you werent watching the real Voyager. How am I supposed to know what episodes were real Voyager and which were clone Voyager? Do I just assume every episode since they left that planet is all Clone Voyager?
No. They very explicitly cover that in the episode. Long before you know WHAT is wrong you begin to notice something is wrong because continuity (what little Voyager had) wasn't matching up.
Do they? I'll admit its been a while since Ive seen the episode and I was probably fucking around on the internet while I watched it...guess I missed that.
Anybody can look bad, if you post a picture of them past 40, without makeup, unkempt hair and in bad light. See photos of Janeway, then vs now.
See some of the early season PR stills for Voyager and you will see Garret Wang was not bad looking. By the way here is proof of my claim. storage.people.com/people/archive/jpgs/19970512/19970512-750-107.jpg
I think Jennifer Lien wanted to leave, because she was sick of acting.
I mean, it did what it was going for really well, but WHY?!
It's called Course Oblivion, 5x18.
So you don't like bleak. That's fine. But it doesn't make it bad.
If a bum dies in a sewer, does anybody care?
I like it specifically for how pointless the lives of the sludge voyager were. It's not like we went a whole season and then "Lol, not the real crew" happened.
I remember watching that episode, ironically my first thought was, "wait a minute, at the end of the sludge episode that created them the copies knew exactly what they were and DIDN'T get a copy of the voyager, what in Newton's Name?" Followed by, "man, I know the writers are trying to be edgy and cool what with the characters all having to face the chilling force of inevitability and hopelessness as some sort of character-defining moment but this is freaking Voyager, land of Injun Joe and Tits McFetishFuel."
Still, whatever. Not like I didn't know what I was getting the moment I saw it was Janeway on deck.
Why?
It wasn't all pointless. You watched it, you were swept up by it, that's all that counts. That in universe it all amounted to not is what makes it tragic. It's what makes it effect YOU more and so it counts.
Fuck that, imagine Voyager with BSG's staff. Any season, really.
What's worse is we almost had that, but then B&B were douchebags so Moore said "Fuck it, I'm out."
And because of that, we were robbed of Kes/Seven slash fic and were instead tormented with Janeway/Seven slash fic and the even more heinous Chakotay/Seven romance that somehow made it into the show.
Death Wish?
There were only three "Q" episodes. That one, "Q2" and "The Q and The Grey"
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Is it before or after he shaved his head completely bald instead of just almost bald? He did put on some weight in the middle seasons. As for crazy, Sisko only gets crazier through the series - he's in a pretty brainfucking situation, worshiped by one culture, loyal to another, and constantly fucked with by a third one which is also transdimensional and you can never quite be sure if they really understand what's going on outside the wormhole or not. I don't want to spoil things too much, but eventually he has an honest to god psychotic episode complete with hallucinations and complete disconnect from reality.
The Shatner talk escalates with seasons, though he never quite gets to the point where it breaks the flow of dialog. In the last few seasons he also seems to go to the Chandler Bing school of pitch oscillation. If he gets excited his voice can cover two octaves in a single sentence.
Heh
I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread that Waltz was him realizing--with some prodding from Sisko, nice job there Captain--that he was lying to himself. He was, at best, an anti-villain, the lesser of two evils, and in any case a bad guy.
So rather than pull back from the abyss and try to redeem himself, he went batshit crazy, deciding it worked for him and that he would stop being the bad guy who was too weak-willed to be Evil.
It is perhaps not as good a character development as he could have had, but I don't think it was negating or derailing the character.