Are people actually arguing about the efficiency of the police that got to the scene of a crime literally five seconds after it occurred?
We know nothing about the Republic police except some of them ride in blimps. Its stupid to say they're corrupt and inefficient based on the available information.
They seemed pretty quick to get on Korra after she took down the gangsters.
No but see Tun if you're okay with that then how can you be against things that are actually terrible?!
Like, you know, a guy killing people and extorting them for money. Oh and let's not forget those people's children that'll be going hungry.
You've got to have principles, man. Just wait for the police who don't care to show up.
You know, while the kids starve.
*sigh*
Yeah, okay.
Go Amon! Get rid of all those terrible, oppressive benders! Throw out the corrupt city government and replace the police with your private paramilitary group!
Wooooooo!
How exactly do you think corrupt and irresponsible governments normally get replaced? Generally not through a fair vote.
Okay Quid, I can see what you're saying, I think. I think my problem with it is that I was assuming you were arguing with the knowledge that it's not always going to be bender crimebosses on that stage. Because scapegoating like this never stops there. Now, I disagree with you in whether Amon is in the right to do what he did to Zolt, but I can at least see that where you stand is somewhat reasonable.
Oh yeah. Sooner or later I'm sure he's going to start going after benders who don't really deserve it. But from the POV of that crowd? I couldn't blame them in the slightest for supporting his actions.
Clip spoilers:
Like was pointed out, the Triad's running around bold as they like. Yet when someone does something about it that's a general threat to benders suddenly they're busting down doors.
This isn't to say whether it's wrong to cripple people or not, and you might have your own understanding of "cripple" that doesn't jive with more common understandings, but perhaps you shouldn't say it's "kind of insulting to say someone who has full use of their body is now crippled" given the popular understanding.
People have distinctly moved the goal post. It was being stated it was literally no different than taking away someone's eyes. It is not the same as that any more than slapping someone's hand is cutting off their arm. Understand that I've been arguing across the last half dozen pages with different people picking up the argument at different points unaware of what was being argued in the first place.
And guess what? A common plot device for containing supervillains in prisons in comic book movies is some sort of, gasp, power blocker. Often it is in the shape of a collar.
But only after the due process of the law
And blatantly untrue. At various points different heroes block an enemy's powers, without due process, than allow them to use them on the innocent if not outright kill them. If not, you know, not outright just kill or beat the crap out of the rank and file. In the last movie Batman
breaks someone's legs for information.
Superman regularly imprisoned enemies in another dimension with no due process. The Avengers (at different points) have their own private prisons often filled with people that never saw the inside of a court room.
And I would still compare it to no different than removing someone's implanted gun in Deus Ex. Yeah, it'd be better if the government would step in and do something but if they don't it becomes a choice between which set of principles you consider more important.
Are people actually arguing about the efficiency of the police that got to the scene of a crime literally five seconds after it occurred?
We know nothing about the Republic police except some of them ride in blimps. Its stupid to say they're corrupt and inefficient based on the available information.
They seemed pretty quick to get on Korra after she took down the gangsters.
Aaaaand this. While the gangsters are extorting people for money they can't afford to give up, the police are nowhere. When Korra makes a mess of capturing them is when they show up. They seem more interested in just keeping things quiet than in what's fair.
Are people actually arguing about the efficiency of the police that got to the scene of a crime literally five seconds after it occurred?
We know nothing about the Republic police except some of them ride in blimps. Its stupid to say they're corrupt and inefficient based on the available information.
They seemed pretty quick to get on Korra after she took down the gangsters.
Aaaaand this. While the gangsters are extorting people for money they can't afford to give up, the police are nowhere. When Korra makes a mess of capturing them is when they show up. They seem more interested in just keeping things quiet than in what's fair.
Maybe it's because it's much easier to see buildings being wrecked and people getting thrown 20 feet into the air. Those gangsters hadn't really done anything until Korra showed up.
The point still being so far the police are quick to act against vigilantism against the criminals, but not against criminals stealing from people.
I'd be pretty unsatisfied if that's the norm myself.
No, the police are quick to act against crimes that are easily seen and heard.
I'm pretty sure that the real police would act faster against someone who goes around blowing up buildings with a bazooka than someone who goes around threatening to blow up buildings.
Are people actually arguing about the efficiency of the police that got to the scene of a crime literally five seconds after it occurred?
We know nothing about the Republic police except some of them ride in blimps. Its stupid to say they're corrupt and inefficient based on the available information.
I don't think that they're corrupt all the way up, because Toph's daughter is at the head, but they certainly aren't doing a good job of keeping gangs in check if Amon can rally thousands of disgruntled citizens with the promise of ending bender gang abuses, or if gangs can stroll through relatively well-off neighborhoods and extort the citizens there.
See also the leaked clip, where
the police tactics employed seem pretty sketchy at best.
Quid, I must have missed your response about those hypothetical purple skinned, far smarter and stronger beings I postulated awhile back (the thread moves quickly, you might have just never seen it). They have an obvious advantage. It would probably be really hard to break into theoretical physics when it is populated primarily by a race of Einsteins. It would be hard to be a sport competitor when they are far faster and stronger than human could ever be. So, are humans being oppressed by this race living among them, simply because they are literally better than humans?
Let's carry it on a bit. Say some of these use their tremendous intellect to steal money, either by grifting, blackmail, hacking, whatever. Is it okay for us to lobotomize them to the level of a normal human? I mean, they're not being harmed according to you. They can still think like a normal person.
What about using a virus to infect their entire race so that their muscles weaken to human levels? Is it okay, basically, to deprive them of what they were born with just because they have an advantage?
edit: Actually, I'm unfairly putting this on you. I just realized you might be arguing entirely from Amon's viewpoint and not from your own.
Are people actually arguing about the efficiency of the police that got to the scene of a crime literally five seconds after it occurred?
We know nothing about the Republic police except some of them ride in blimps. Its stupid to say they're corrupt and inefficient based on the available information.
I don't think that they're corrupt all the way up, because Toph's daughter is at the head, but they certainly aren't doing a good job of keeping gangs in check if Amon can rally thousands of disgruntled citizens with the promise of ending bender gang abuses, or if gangs can stroll through relatively well-off neighborhoods and extort the citizens there.
See also the leaked clip, where
the police tactics employed seem pretty sketchy at best.
Not to mention the hilarious amounts of funding those blimps represent.
One thing to note is the fact that anti-bending seems to be a new thing. There's no long standing antipathy like what Christians hold toward Jews or Europeans toward Roma/Travelers. Benders also exist among all subgroups, are often related to non-benders, and are actually national symbols. Additionally, bending is not seen as inherently immoral, even by the anti-bending league, so there's no real reason to assume that the obviously common dislike of benders is the result of simple demagogy.
Aaaaand this. While the gangsters are extorting people for money they can't afford to give up, the police are nowhere. When Korra makes a mess of capturing them is when they show up. They seem more interested in just keeping things quiet than in what's fair.
To be frank, the extortion was a relatively quiet, non-obvious affair. Unless the populace reported it, it is unlikely the police could have known what was happening.
Throwing cars around, that's a bit more obvious and likely to get attention.
How exactly do you think corrupt and irresponsible governments normally get replaced? Generally not through a fair vote.
We haven't seen enough to know whether the police are incompetent or corrupt yet.
Oh yeah. Sooner or later I'm sure he's going to start going after benders who don't really deserve it. But from the POV of that crowd? I couldn't blame them in the slightest for supporting his actions.
Agreed.
Clip spoilers:
Like was pointed out, the Triad's running around bold as they like. Yet when someone does something about it that's a general threat to benders suddenly they're busting down doors.
Of course gang members are going to act boldly when police aren't around. Like others have said they didn't show up until there was enormous property damage caused by Korra's fight with them. The police had no cause to intervene until someone used their powers in an obvious fashion to get their attention or a bystander called them.
People have distinctly moved the goal post. It was being stated it was literally no different than taking away someone's eyes. It is not the same as that any more than slapping someone's hand is cutting off their arm. Understand that I've been arguing across the last half dozen pages with different people picking up the argument at different points unaware of what was being argued in the first place.
Were you a bender and that occurred wouldn't you be pissed someone took your magic powers away?
And blatantly untrue. At various points different heroes block an enemy's powers, without due process, than allow them to use them on the innocent if not outright kill them. If not, you know, not outright just kill or beat the crap out of the rank and file. In the last movie Batman
breaks someone's legs for information.
Superman regularly imprisoned enemies in another dimension with no due process. The Avengers (at different points) have their own private prisons often filled with people that never saw the inside of a court room.
Many heroes from Marvel & DC are vigilantes, but occasionally many or teams are given authority to hunt super-criminals. The Avengers have had high level clearance from SHIELD since before Busiek's run on the title. IIRC the Justice League have worked for the United Nations.
That said, super-heroes are not good examples for law abiding citizens. Nolan's Batman is technically not a government employee. In fact, he's a wanted criminal
even before The Dark Knight's finale.
And I would still compare it to no different than removing someone's implanted gun in Deus Ex. Yeah, it'd be better if the government would step in and do something but if they don't it becomes a choice between which set of principles you consider more important.
Unlike Deus Ex we don't know enough about the police or government to judge them properly. Sure, they're not perfect but I'm certain Korra dealing with non-benders will be this season's theme. Both sides have good arguments to make. It's still early into the series though.
I don't think that they're corrupt all the way up, because Toph's daughter is at the head, but they certainly aren't doing a good job of keeping gangs in check if Amon can rally thousands of disgruntled citizens with the promise of ending bender gang abuses, or if gangs can stroll through relatively well-off neighborhoods and extort the citizens there.
Having gang problems doesn't automatically mean the police can't handle the situation or they're incompetent. Maybe the police are limited with personnel or budget? We don't know how high the Equalists numbers are. They showed a hundred at most on screen, perhaps less. Nor do we know whether the majority of non-benders in Republic City hate benders. It might be a minority.
See also the leaked clip, where
the police tactics employed seem pretty sketchy at best.
Until we see the episode we don't know the full context for the raid. Maybe they did have good reasons. Or not.
The point still being so far the police are quick to act against vigilantism against the criminals, but not against criminals stealing from people.
I'd be pretty unsatisfied if that's the norm myself.
No, the police are quick to act against crimes that are easily seen and heard.
I'm pretty sure that the real police would act faster against someone who goes around blowing up buildings with a bazooka than someone who goes around threatening to blow up buildings.
I don't think that they're corrupt all the way up, because Toph's daughter is at the head, but they certainly aren't doing a good job of keeping gangs in check if Amon can rally thousands of disgruntled citizens with the promise of ending bender gang abuses, or if gangs can stroll through relatively well-off neighborhoods and extort the citizens there.
Having gang problems doesn't automatically mean the police can't handle the situation or they're incompetent. Maybe the police are limited with personnel or budget? We don't know how high the Equalists numbers are. They showed a hundred at most on screen, perhaps less. Nor do we know whether the majority of non-benders in Republic City hate benders. It might be a minority.
If they're limited in personnel or budget, that pretty much means that they can't handle the gang problem by default.
There were also easily hundreds or thousands of people at that rally, and, once again, the fact that not only are gangs able to extort well-off neighborhoods but also are muscling up for an all-out gang war would seem to indicate that the gang problem is getting rather out of control.
I would also agree that the amount of bender haters is probably a pretty small minority, but the fact that there's that many people specifically dissatisfied at bender abuses of power (read: gangs) would seem to indicate that a significant chunk of the population is feeling directly impacted by gang action.
See also the leaked clip, where
the police tactics employed seem pretty sketchy at best.
Until we see the episode we don't know the full context for the raid. Maybe they did have good reasons. Or not.
We don't have full context yet, but I can't imagine a context in which you can justify employing tactics that brutal against one's own citizens without at least a warning. I'd bet ten bucks right now that the episode is going to categorize Tarlok's methods as increasingly brutal and excessive until Korra finally comes to a revelation about the moral problems with what she's doing.
I don't think that they're corrupt all the way up, because Toph's daughter is at the head, but they certainly aren't doing a good job of keeping gangs in check if Amon can rally thousands of disgruntled citizens with the promise of ending bender gang abuses, or if gangs can stroll through relatively well-off neighborhoods and extort the citizens there.
Having gang problems doesn't automatically mean the police can't handle the situation or they're incompetent. Maybe the police are limited with personnel or budget? We don't know how high the Equalists numbers are. They showed a hundred at most on screen, perhaps less. Nor do we know whether the majority of non-benders in Republic City hate benders. It might be a minority.
If they're limited in personnel or budget, that pretty much means that they can't handle the gang problem by default.
True.
There were also easily hundreds or thousands of people at that rally, and, once again, the fact that not only are gangs able to extort well-off neighborhoods but also are muscling up for an all-out gang war would seem to indicate that the gang problem is getting rather out of control.
Extorting non-bending well off neighborhoods, that's much easier to pull off than against their bending counterparts. The rally didn't look that big to me. I'll have to watch that scene again to make sure. Gang wars occur even in city's with large police departments. There's no reason to believe RC's police force being enough numbers to match them would stop that. It's inevitable once more than one gang was operating in the city.
We don't have full context yet, but I can't imagine a context in which you can justify employing tactics that brutal against one's own citizens without at least a warning. I'd bet ten bucks right now that the episode is going to categorize Tarlok's methods as excessively brutal until Korra finally comes to a revelation about the moral problems with what she's doing.
The point still being so far the police are quick to act against vigilantism against the criminals, but not against criminals stealing from people.
I'd be pretty unsatisfied if that's the norm myself.
No, the police are quick to act against crimes that are easily seen and heard.
In the clip
They're all over a hidden underground dojo. But they can't find the crime boss most citizens seem to know on sight? Please.
Are you familiar with how organized crime works? There's a reason that the government had to resort to getting Al Capone on tax evasion charges instead of all the murder and theft he was responsible for.
Extorting non-bending well off neighborhoods, that's much easier to pull off than against their bending counterparts. The rally didn't look that big to me. I'll have to watch that scene again to make sure. Gang wars occur even in city's with large police departments. There's no reason to believe RC's police force being enough numbers to match them would stop that. It's inevitable once more than one gang was operating in the city.
Right, non-bending neighborhoods, but that's kind of the whole point of the Equalists, that benders are extorting non-benders.
The point still being so far the police are quick to act against vigilantism against the criminals, but not against criminals stealing from people.
I'd be pretty unsatisfied if that's the norm myself.
No, the police are quick to act against crimes that are easily seen and heard.
In the clip
They're all over a hidden underground dojo. But they can't find the crime boss most citizens seem to know on sight? Please.
Are you familiar with how organized crime works? There's a reason that the government had to resort to getting Al Capone on tax evasion charges instead of all the murder and theft he was responsible for.
This is actually another point in favor of public support for the Equalists; the government is unable to act against the gangs. The Equalists can.
Extorting non-bending well off neighborhoods, that's much easier to pull off than against their bending counterparts. The rally didn't look that big to me. I'll have to watch that scene again to make sure. Gang wars occur even in city's with large police departments. There's no reason to believe RC's police force being enough numbers to match them would stop that. It's inevitable once more than one gang was operating in the city.
Right, non-bending neighborhoods, but that's kind of the whole point of the Equalists, that benders are extorting non-benders.
The criminals are only going after the easier prey. Non-benders are perfect targets for super-criminals like the Triads. That said, I'm sure they're doing the same to civilian benders as well.
The point still being so far the police are quick to act against vigilantism against the criminals, but not against criminals stealing from people.
I'd be pretty unsatisfied if that's the norm myself.
No, the police are quick to act against crimes that are easily seen and heard.
In the clip
They're all over a hidden underground dojo. But they can't find the crime boss most citizens seem to know on sight? Please.
Are you familiar with how organized crime works? There's a reason that the government had to resort to getting Al Capone on tax evasion charges instead of all the murder and theft he was responsible for.
This is actually another point in favor of public support for the Equalists; the government is unable to act against the gangs. The Equalists can.
[/quote]
Still to early to know the government don't act against the gangs. I find it difficult to believe the police would let bending criminals do whatever they want unless it's confirmed.
I don't think that they're corrupt all the way up, because Toph's daughter is at the head, but they certainly aren't doing a good job of keeping gangs in check if Amon can rally thousands of disgruntled citizens with the promise of ending bender gang abuses, or if gangs can stroll through relatively well-off neighborhoods and extort the citizens there.
Having gang problems doesn't automatically mean the police can't handle the situation or they're incompetent. Maybe the police are limited with personnel or budget? We don't know how high the Equalists numbers are. They showed a hundred at most on screen, perhaps less. Nor do we know whether the majority of non-benders in Republic City hate benders. It might be a minority.
If they're limited in personnel or budget, that pretty much means that they can't handle the gang problem by default.
There were also easily hundreds or thousands of people at that rally, and, once again, the fact that not only are gangs able to extort well-off neighborhoods but also are muscling up for an all-out gang war would seem to indicate that the gang problem is getting rather out of control.
I would also agree that the amount of bender haters is probably a pretty small minority, but the fact that there's that many people specifically dissatisfied at bender abuses of power (read: gangs) would seem to indicate that a significant chunk of the population is feeling directly impacted by gang action.
See also the leaked clip, where
the police tactics employed seem pretty sketchy at best.
Until we see the episode we don't know the full context for the raid. Maybe they did have good reasons. Or not.
We don't have full context yet, but I can't imagine a context in which you can justify employing tactics that brutal against one's own citizens without at least a warning. I'd bet ten bucks right now that the episode is going to categorize Tarlok's methods as increasingly brutal and excessive until Korra finally comes to a revelation about the moral problems with what she's doing.
Hmmm
Clip spoiler
I did not have too big a problem with the tactics as used. It seemed like the bending version of SWAT. Very hard, very fast, no warning. Maybe a little more bone-breakey than necessary (remembering the earth bending) but not overkill. What worries me is, what did that dojo do to get SWAT called on them? Cause if all they are doing is learning an anti-bending martial art, that does seem like excessive force. Not from use of SWAT tactics, but from SWAT being there at all.
I'm well aware of the problems that can arise from vigilantism. That does not, however, make it wrong in every single instance ever.
Also you must be a real downer to see any super hero movie with.
"Batman took away Mr. Freeze's freeze gun? That's terrible! Freezing is a large part of that man's essence of being. How dare Batman take away Mr. Freeze's ability to freeze - I want a refund on this movie ticket!"
Man. Look at that fire bender. He uses lightning bending to work at the power plant, fire bending to heat the house to keep his little kids warm in winter and prepare food for them on the cheap because the job pays bad.
Just because something isn't part of you, doesn't mean it's not part of someone else.
If someone was born with four arms and used those arms to hurt someone, would you support cutting two of them off?
Considering the equalist goal is eliminating bending, they're a terrorist group intent on massive levels of economic and cultural destruction through violation of a person's competency. It's like if someone was training on a way to permanently erase computers from the universe.
Considering the equalist goal is eliminating bending, they're a terrorist group intent on massive levels of economic and cultural destruction through violation of a person's competency. It's like if someone was training on a way to permanently erase computers from the universe.
Chi-blocking is not permanent. They're not teaching them how to remove bending permanently, just how to defend themselves against benders.
And while the Equalists indeed are advocating action against benders, we do not yet know if they are an illegal organization; the fact that they're allowed to demonstrate openly in a public park would seem to indicate that they are not.
Given as such, I can't quite see what Tarlok's justification for the raid is at the moment. I'm wondering if the episode will provide more info regarding the motivation behind the raid, or if it really will be as amoral and ruthless as it seems right now.
I don't think that they're corrupt all the way up, because Toph's daughter is at the head, but they certainly aren't doing a good job of keeping gangs in check if Amon can rally thousands of disgruntled citizens with the promise of ending bender gang abuses, or if gangs can stroll through relatively well-off neighborhoods and extort the citizens there.
Having gang problems doesn't automatically mean the police can't handle the situation or they're incompetent. Maybe the police are limited with personnel or budget? We don't know how high the Equalists numbers are. They showed a hundred at most on screen, perhaps less. Nor do we know whether the majority of non-benders in Republic City hate benders. It might be a minority.
If they're limited in personnel or budget, that pretty much means that they can't handle the gang problem by default.
There were also easily hundreds or thousands of people at that rally, and, once again, the fact that not only are gangs able to extort well-off neighborhoods but also are muscling up for an all-out gang war would seem to indicate that the gang problem is getting rather out of control.
I would also agree that the amount of bender haters is probably a pretty small minority, but the fact that there's that many people specifically dissatisfied at bender abuses of power (read: gangs) would seem to indicate that a significant chunk of the population is feeling directly impacted by gang action.
See also the leaked clip, where
the police tactics employed seem pretty sketchy at best.
Until we see the episode we don't know the full context for the raid. Maybe they did have good reasons. Or not.
We don't have full context yet, but I can't imagine a context in which you can justify employing tactics that brutal against one's own citizens without at least a warning. I'd bet ten bucks right now that the episode is going to categorize Tarlok's methods as increasingly brutal and excessive until Korra finally comes to a revelation about the moral problems with what she's doing.
Hmmm
Clip spoiler
I did not have too big a problem with the tactics as used. It seemed like the bending version of SWAT. Very hard, very fast, no warning. Maybe a little more bone-breakey than necessary (remembering the earth bending) but not overkill. What worries me is, what did that dojo do to get SWAT called on them? Cause if all they are doing is learning an anti-bending martial art, that does seem like excessive force. Not from use of SWAT tactics, but from SWAT being there at all.
What I find objectionable is that they didn't give the Equalists a warning or chance to stand down instead of potentially suffering severe physical harm, when the Equalists posed no immediate threat to the safety of the police officers. I'd call that more than a little unsavory.
If it was a den of, say, Firebenders, I can see going in hard and fast without a warning, but these guys had no way to hit back at the officers. They should've been given a chance to surrender.
Agreed on the motivations, as well. Currently, these guys just seem to be militant trainees. That's no call to drop the Avatar on them.
...They are part of an organization that is out to erase bending. They're training to make benders unable to defend themselves from the guy who can wreck their bending.
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Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
Y'know, I have to assume Amon isn't the only one among his troops with that certain ability. Otherwise it'd seem really odd to let a world of benders know just what he can do. I somehow doubt he can fight off a mob. :P
...They are part of an organization that is out to erase bending. They're training to make benders unable to defend themselves from the guy who can wreck their bending.
This is entirely true, but the wording of your post which I was responding to implied that they were training on a way to eliminate someone's ability to bend. They're not.
While their training will absolutely be used as an accessory to Amon's powers, it's still not the same thing.
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DVGNo. 1 Honor StudentNether Institute, Evil AcademyRegistered Userregular
The point still being so far the police are quick to act against vigilantism against the criminals, but not against criminals stealing from people.
I'd be pretty unsatisfied if that's the norm myself.
No, the police are quick to act against crimes that are easily seen and heard.
In the clip
They're all over a hidden underground dojo. But they can't find the crime boss most citizens seem to know on sight? Please.
Are you familiar with how organized crime works? There's a reason that the government had to resort to getting Al Capone on tax evasion charges instead of all the murder and theft he was responsible for.
Allegedly
Diablo 3 - DVG#1857
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Binary SquidWe all make choicesRegistered Userregular
Hmm, it does present an interesting concept to the show. Not that it's particularily a new one, nor is it new to childrens media, since X-Men did many of the same themes before.
But using examples from our world, it is pretty readily apparent that humans tend to discriminate against others for a variety of reasons. Something as small as skin color, or even eye color in experiments, is enough to get people to form in and out groups. In a world like Avatar, I can't see how these people, who have the same human qualities, haven't had an upper class of benders occupying many societies at most times in that their difference with non-benders gives them tangible and measurable power economically as well as physically.
The concept of certain people being better and thus more worthy than others is not a new one. Now if you actually have people who are capable of doing things others can't physically and those same people are part of a larger group who is used to being superior and being more powerful, on average. That sort of sentiment would probably be pretty darn common in the Avatar universe.
Having a bender in the family would seem to be a goal of most families, due to the greater earning potential and protection from other benders. I'd wonder if times were tough, and a family was forced to make a Sophies Choice type of decision that a non-bender would even have a chance to survive against their bender sibling. A period of famine, perhaps, or some other disaster. As has already been pointed out, non-benders are less competitive than benders, and that must be something the people in Avatar's world have noticed before now.
This is again, not new. People can and have made the choice to favor one child over another for future economic reasons in reality.
This uprising can't be the first in that world's existance. I'm wondering if chi-blocking hasn't had occasional upswings in use by non-benders in a desperate attempt to protect themselves. More than one art in the real world has been 'rediscovered' after being lost through negligence or malice.
Using examples from our world, should an employer be allowed to discriminate against those who are disabled? You wouldn't argue that they should be able to tell people using wheelchairs to forget about working because they can't climb stairs instead of making that workplace build a ramp.
The solution that I've seen presented thus far seems to be that non-benders should Know Their Place and accept their unequal status physically and economically. I'm not sure if that's one I could support.
Are people actually arguing about the efficiency of the police that got to the scene of a crime literally five seconds after it occurred?
We know nothing about the Republic police except some of them ride in blimps. Its stupid to say they're corrupt and inefficient based on the available information.
They seemed pretty quick to get on Korra after she took down the gangsters.
Aaaaand this. While the gangsters are extorting people for money they can't afford to give up, the police are nowhere. When Korra makes a mess of capturing them is when they show up. They seem more interested in just keeping things quiet than in what's fair.
I don't think this is really fair. the cops didn't respond to a quiet extortion that no one reported but they did to a pretty epic street fight
Using examples from our world, should an employer be allowed to discriminate against those who are disabled? You wouldn't argue that they should be able to tell people using wheelchairs to forget about working because they can't climb stairs instead of making that workplace build a ramp.
The solution that I've seen presented thus far seems to be that non-benders should Know Their Place and accept their unequal status physically and economically. I'm not sure if that's one I could support.
That depends on the job. If you have job that requires climbing poles you of course discriminate against people who can't climb. Generally we don't even label this as discrimination.
Are people actually arguing about the efficiency of the police that got to the scene of a crime literally five seconds after it occurred?
We know nothing about the Republic police except some of them ride in blimps. Its stupid to say they're corrupt and inefficient based on the available information.
They seemed pretty quick to get on Korra after she took down the gangsters.
Aaaaand this. While the gangsters are extorting people for money they can't afford to give up, the police are nowhere. When Korra makes a mess of capturing them is when they show up. They seem more interested in just keeping things quiet than in what's fair.
I don't think this is really fair. the cops didn't respond to a quiet extortion that no one reported but they did to a pretty epic street fight
Of course gang members are going to act boldly when police aren't around. Like others have said they didn't show up until there was enormous property damage caused by Korra's fight with them. The police had no cause to intervene until someone used their powers in an obvious fashion to get their attention or a bystander called them.
Same.
Were you a bender and that occurred wouldn't you be pissed someone took your magic powers away?
I've addressed this! Repeatedly no less!
Many heroes from Marvel & DC are vigilantes, but occasionally many or teams are given authority to hunt super-criminals. The Avengers have had high level clearance from SHIELD since before Busiek's run on the title. IIRC the Justice League have worked for the United Nations.
That said, super-heroes are not good examples for law abiding citizens. Nolan's Batman is technically not a government employee. In fact, he's a wanted criminal
even before The Dark Knight's finale.
So my point stands. Plenty of people in this thread cheer on super heroes who act outside the scope of the law. I guarantee the only reason they aren't this one is how he's been presented.
Unlike Deus Ex we don't know enough about the police or government to judge them properly.
I was referring to Jolt. Him losing his powers is no different than one of Deus Ex's augmented people losing an implanted gun. It's not something to be done lightly but it's not equivalent to taking a leg either.
Quid, I must have missed your response about those hypothetical purple skinned, far smarter and stronger beings I postulated awhile back (the thread moves quickly, you might have just never seen it). They have an obvious advantage. It would probably be really hard to break into theoretical physics when it is populated primarily by a race of Einsteins. It would be hard to be a sport competitor when they are far faster and stronger than human could ever be. So, are humans being oppressed by this race living among them, simply because they are literally better than humans?
Let's carry it on a bit. Say some of these use their tremendous intellect to steal money, either by grifting, blackmail, hacking, whatever. Is it okay for us to lobotomize them to the level of a normal human? I mean, they're not being harmed according to you. They can still think like a normal person.
What about using a virus to infect their entire race so that their muscles weaken to human levels? Is it okay, basically, to deprive them of what they were born with just because they have an advantage?
edit: Actually, I'm unfairly putting this on you. I just realized you might be arguing entirely from Amon's viewpoint and not from your own.
If they were constantly stealing from, destroying, and harassing my community leading to the deaths of various people? Edit: Scratch that no I'd likely go straight to killing them if I had no other option.
I mean, generally the traditional answer is to kill them instead. Or incarcerate them forever but that's not an option the people suffering under the benders have right now. Also I doubt very much most of them want to simply remove all benders like Amon likely does. Rather just the ones that continue to make their lives miserable.
Quid on
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Using examples from our world, should an employer be allowed to discriminate against those who are disabled? You wouldn't argue that they should be able to tell people using wheelchairs to forget about working because they can't climb stairs instead of making that workplace build a ramp.
The solution that I've seen presented thus far seems to be that non-benders should Know Their Place and accept their unequal status physically and economically. I'm not sure if that's one I could support.
That depends on the job. If you have job that requires climbing poles you of course discriminate against people who can't climb. Generally we don't even label this as discrimination.
Maybe I didn't put that as clearly as I could. I mentioned stairs because ramps are a technology adapted specifically for helping one group of people achieve greater parity with their non-wheelchair using counterparts. The same way technology could also be used to help non-benders to do some of the things that benders can do now, but will never be able to do because the presence of the more economically viable bender presence in society.
Basically, it's like the ramp never gets invented and never will be because there's already people who can go up the stairs. So while there could be a solution to help those people, they are instead told that this is the way of things.
Benders themselves, even without direct action, prevent non-benders from the possibility of improving their situation.
You're looking at a perpetual and eternal lower class, justified because one group has more social power than the other, due to the physical advantage they have over that group.
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They seemed pretty quick to get on Korra after she took down the gangsters.
How exactly do you think corrupt and irresponsible governments normally get replaced? Generally not through a fair vote.
Oh yeah. Sooner or later I'm sure he's going to start going after benders who don't really deserve it. But from the POV of that crowd? I couldn't blame them in the slightest for supporting his actions.
Clip spoilers:
People have distinctly moved the goal post. It was being stated it was literally no different than taking away someone's eyes. It is not the same as that any more than slapping someone's hand is cutting off their arm. Understand that I've been arguing across the last half dozen pages with different people picking up the argument at different points unaware of what was being argued in the first place.
And blatantly untrue. At various points different heroes block an enemy's powers, without due process, than allow them to use them on the innocent if not outright kill them. If not, you know, not outright just kill or beat the crap out of the rank and file. In the last movie Batman
And I would still compare it to no different than removing someone's implanted gun in Deus Ex. Yeah, it'd be better if the government would step in and do something but if they don't it becomes a choice between which set of principles you consider more important.
Aaaaand this. While the gangsters are extorting people for money they can't afford to give up, the police are nowhere. When Korra makes a mess of capturing them is when they show up. They seem more interested in just keeping things quiet than in what's fair.
Maybe it's because it's much easier to see buildings being wrecked and people getting thrown 20 feet into the air. Those gangsters hadn't really done anything until Korra showed up.
I'd be pretty unsatisfied if that's the norm myself.
No, the police are quick to act against crimes that are easily seen and heard.
I'm pretty sure that the real police would act faster against someone who goes around blowing up buildings with a bazooka than someone who goes around threatening to blow up buildings.
In the clip
I don't think that they're corrupt all the way up, because Toph's daughter is at the head, but they certainly aren't doing a good job of keeping gangs in check if Amon can rally thousands of disgruntled citizens with the promise of ending bender gang abuses, or if gangs can stroll through relatively well-off neighborhoods and extort the citizens there.
See also the leaked clip, where
Let's carry it on a bit. Say some of these use their tremendous intellect to steal money, either by grifting, blackmail, hacking, whatever. Is it okay for us to lobotomize them to the level of a normal human? I mean, they're not being harmed according to you. They can still think like a normal person.
What about using a virus to infect their entire race so that their muscles weaken to human levels? Is it okay, basically, to deprive them of what they were born with just because they have an advantage?
edit: Actually, I'm unfairly putting this on you. I just realized you might be arguing entirely from Amon's viewpoint and not from your own.
Not to mention the hilarious amounts of funding those blimps represent.
One thing to note is the fact that anti-bending seems to be a new thing. There's no long standing antipathy like what Christians hold toward Jews or Europeans toward Roma/Travelers. Benders also exist among all subgroups, are often related to non-benders, and are actually national symbols. Additionally, bending is not seen as inherently immoral, even by the anti-bending league, so there's no real reason to assume that the obviously common dislike of benders is the result of simple demagogy.
Throwing cars around, that's a bit more obvious and likely to get attention.
We haven't seen enough to know whether the police are incompetent or corrupt yet.
Agreed.
Of course gang members are going to act boldly when police aren't around. Like others have said they didn't show up until there was enormous property damage caused by Korra's fight with them. The police had no cause to intervene until someone used their powers in an obvious fashion to get their attention or a bystander called them.
Were you a bender and that occurred wouldn't you be pissed someone took your magic powers away?
Many heroes from Marvel & DC are vigilantes, but occasionally many or teams are given authority to hunt super-criminals. The Avengers have had high level clearance from SHIELD since before Busiek's run on the title. IIRC the Justice League have worked for the United Nations.
That said, super-heroes are not good examples for law abiding citizens. Nolan's Batman is technically not a government employee. In fact, he's a wanted criminal
Unlike Deus Ex we don't know enough about the police or government to judge them properly. Sure, they're not perfect but I'm certain Korra dealing with non-benders will be this season's theme. Both sides have good arguments to make. It's still early into the series though.
We have no proof this is the norm for Republic City. Not that it is necessarily proof they're incompetent or corrupt if it was.
Having gang problems doesn't automatically mean the police can't handle the situation or they're incompetent. Maybe the police are limited with personnel or budget? We don't know how high the Equalists numbers are. They showed a hundred at most on screen, perhaps less. Nor do we know whether the majority of non-benders in Republic City hate benders. It might be a minority.
Agreed.
There were also easily hundreds or thousands of people at that rally, and, once again, the fact that not only are gangs able to extort well-off neighborhoods but also are muscling up for an all-out gang war would seem to indicate that the gang problem is getting rather out of control.
I would also agree that the amount of bender haters is probably a pretty small minority, but the fact that there's that many people specifically dissatisfied at bender abuses of power (read: gangs) would seem to indicate that a significant chunk of the population is feeling directly impacted by gang action.
True.
Extorting non-bending well off neighborhoods, that's much easier to pull off than against their bending counterparts. The rally didn't look that big to me. I'll have to watch that scene again to make sure. Gang wars occur even in city's with large police departments. There's no reason to believe RC's police force being enough numbers to match them would stop that. It's inevitable once more than one gang was operating in the city.
True.
She threw a car into a building. The other dudes were talking. Threatening, to be sure, but still talking.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Right, non-bending neighborhoods, but that's kind of the whole point of the Equalists, that benders are extorting non-benders.
Fair point about gang wars, though.
The criminals are only going after the easier prey. Non-benders are perfect targets for super-criminals like the Triads. That said, I'm sure they're doing the same to civilian benders as well.
Still to early to know the government don't act against the gangs. I find it difficult to believe the police would let bending criminals do whatever they want unless it's confirmed.
Hmmm
Clip spoiler
Just because something isn't part of you, doesn't mean it's not part of someone else.
If someone was born with four arms and used those arms to hurt someone, would you support cutting two of them off?
And while the Equalists indeed are advocating action against benders, we do not yet know if they are an illegal organization; the fact that they're allowed to demonstrate openly in a public park would seem to indicate that they are not.
Given as such, I can't quite see what Tarlok's justification for the raid is at the moment. I'm wondering if the episode will provide more info regarding the motivation behind the raid, or if it really will be as amoral and ruthless as it seems right now.
If it was a den of, say, Firebenders, I can see going in hard and fast without a warning, but these guys had no way to hit back at the officers. They should've been given a chance to surrender.
Agreed on the motivations, as well. Currently, these guys just seem to be militant trainees. That's no call to drop the Avatar on them.
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While their training will absolutely be used as an accessory to Amon's powers, it's still not the same thing.
Allegedly
Hmm, it does present an interesting concept to the show. Not that it's particularily a new one, nor is it new to childrens media, since X-Men did many of the same themes before.
But using examples from our world, it is pretty readily apparent that humans tend to discriminate against others for a variety of reasons. Something as small as skin color, or even eye color in experiments, is enough to get people to form in and out groups. In a world like Avatar, I can't see how these people, who have the same human qualities, haven't had an upper class of benders occupying many societies at most times in that their difference with non-benders gives them tangible and measurable power economically as well as physically.
The concept of certain people being better and thus more worthy than others is not a new one. Now if you actually have people who are capable of doing things others can't physically and those same people are part of a larger group who is used to being superior and being more powerful, on average. That sort of sentiment would probably be pretty darn common in the Avatar universe.
Having a bender in the family would seem to be a goal of most families, due to the greater earning potential and protection from other benders. I'd wonder if times were tough, and a family was forced to make a Sophies Choice type of decision that a non-bender would even have a chance to survive against their bender sibling. A period of famine, perhaps, or some other disaster. As has already been pointed out, non-benders are less competitive than benders, and that must be something the people in Avatar's world have noticed before now.
This is again, not new. People can and have made the choice to favor one child over another for future economic reasons in reality.
This uprising can't be the first in that world's existance. I'm wondering if chi-blocking hasn't had occasional upswings in use by non-benders in a desperate attempt to protect themselves. More than one art in the real world has been 'rediscovered' after being lost through negligence or malice.
Using examples from our world, should an employer be allowed to discriminate against those who are disabled? You wouldn't argue that they should be able to tell people using wheelchairs to forget about working because they can't climb stairs instead of making that workplace build a ramp.
The solution that I've seen presented thus far seems to be that non-benders should Know Their Place and accept their unequal status physically and economically. I'm not sure if that's one I could support.
I don't think this is really fair. the cops didn't respond to a quiet extortion that no one reported but they did to a pretty epic street fight
Needless to say, I can see the comparisons between her and Lust from FMA now.
Blood is flowing in the gutters of Tumblr right now over this.
who? what did SE++ say?
I address this in my spoilers.
Same.
I've addressed this! Repeatedly no less!
So my point stands. Plenty of people in this thread cheer on super heroes who act outside the scope of the law. I guarantee the only reason they aren't this one is how he's been presented.
I was referring to Jolt. Him losing his powers is no different than one of Deus Ex's augmented people losing an implanted gun. It's not something to be done lightly but it's not equivalent to taking a leg either.
Asami's an upcoming character, the daughter of a wealthy industrialist who invented the Satomobile.
The SE++ thread first made me aware of this, but I think the pics broke on Tumblr.
If they were constantly stealing from, destroying, and harassing my community leading to the deaths of various people? Edit: Scratch that no I'd likely go straight to killing them if I had no other option.
I mean, generally the traditional answer is to kill them instead. Or incarcerate them forever but that's not an option the people suffering under the benders have right now. Also I doubt very much most of them want to simply remove all benders like Amon likely does. Rather just the ones that continue to make their lives miserable.
Maybe I didn't put that as clearly as I could. I mentioned stairs because ramps are a technology adapted specifically for helping one group of people achieve greater parity with their non-wheelchair using counterparts. The same way technology could also be used to help non-benders to do some of the things that benders can do now, but will never be able to do because the presence of the more economically viable bender presence in society.
Basically, it's like the ramp never gets invented and never will be because there's already people who can go up the stairs. So while there could be a solution to help those people, they are instead told that this is the way of things.
Benders themselves, even without direct action, prevent non-benders from the possibility of improving their situation.
You're looking at a perpetual and eternal lower class, justified because one group has more social power than the other, due to the physical advantage they have over that group.
I mean, even if someone stumbles upon the two of them, it would be a long time because someone can set them free.
Also, how is it that no one bothers to ask the Earth King if he revealed important details to Azula, like the deal with the solar eclipse?