It can be very trying on the patience, though, and sometimes they really do just want to hear the story with all the voices in.
This is another thing where I think that whole "it take a village" philosophy is dead on.
We basically expect parents to do all their child-rearing by themselves these days, and then act appalled when they don't have the energy or patience to do all the helpful little things that they probably ought to.
It's totally crazy expectation in my opinion. Bring in the extended family, friends, nannies, etc. You are going to need them.
Exactly, yeah. I think both I and my parents benefited a lot from having my dad's parents in the picture. My dad was able to finish his master's and get a lucrative job that he never could've swung if he couldn't drop me off with his folks a couple evenings a week.
My oldest brother had cancer so we ended up spending a lot of time with a family friend who lived down the street and basically growing up with her children and with her as a second mom.
I always kind of want to behave unpretentiously with kids. Like, not do the silly voices and playacting that people do.
This sort of works, in that children are not intrinsically stupid, they just lack a complete mental model of how to interact with the world, which means that they will make incomprehensible leaps of logic and generally appear to be acting in a manner that doesn't make any sense.
I really hate to see parents either mocking or scolding their children when the child has tried to figure something out and arrived at an incorrect and nonsensical solution. Discouraging kids from actively thinking about the things around them seems to me to be a terrible idea.
It can be very trying on the patience, though, and sometimes they really do just want to hear the story with all the voices in.
Kids are (generally) pretty damn smart, it is just, as you said, that they are working with a very incomplete data set.
They'll make a lot of sensible choices that are 'wrong' due to that incomplete data set. Like pluralizing goose and gooses, they are consistently applying the rules they have learned, but they are missing information (geese don't give a fuck about your rules).
This is kind of what's worked for me, in that there have always been young children around somewhere in my extended family with which I have interacted.
I have absolutely no idea if it's sustainable over a long period as an actual parenting technique.
Also my youngest cousin was gifted with boundless curiosity and an uncontrollable urge to experiment. That was a combination that turned out to be somewhat disruptive.
Hehe, kids are always pushing and testing their boundaries. One thing I've noticed with the kids at work is how attentive they are to your response when they do something that is new or outside of the norm for their behavior. They are trying to figure out how they can meaningfully interact with and/or control the world around them. A lot of times they will try doing the same new thing to see if it nets a consistent or varied response. I've noticed they tend to like consistent responses more, because it gives a sense of control over their interactions.
Oh, also, the "asking a question 10,000 times" thing is, in my experience, generally the result of a kid trying to frame a question without really knowing how to express what they're thinking. The question they want answered is probably one that is related to, but not literally, the one they're asking.
i think one of my favorite moments is when a stranger (or casual acquaintance) asks to hold a newborn
the look on the mother's face (even if she eventually says yes) makes me laugh every time
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Hi I'm Vee!Formerly VH; She/Her; Is an E X P E R I E N C ERegistered Userregular
I remember being called a faggot in middle school because I took ballet.
They didn't seem to understand that I got to be in a room with mirrors for walls with 8 or 9 pretty girls in leotards and tights, and sometimes I got to touch them!
it has been brought up to me a number of times that people without kids will often have strong opinions about how kids should be raised, or what behavior is acceptable
I'LL NEVER LET MY KID BE LOUD IN PUBLIC OR WATCH TEE VEE
and I guess that changes right quick when you actually have one
i wonder what percentage of parents stick to their guns
My official guess is zero percent.
The overwhelming majority of things people proclaim about theoretical kids are like the decisions people make during pregnancy -- it's all about them and some notion of a kid. Thry're talking about themselves the whole time and they think they're talking about a child.
Soto zen 101: words and ideas are not the things you use them about
also I guess it is much harder than it looks
and when you're like, I WILL ALWAYS GIVE MY KIDS AN ANSWER INSTEAD OF TELLING THEM BECAUSE
and you are hardcore judging some stupid parent who isn't doing this
you aren't seeing the sleep deprivation or the 10,000 times before the kid has asked this question or whatever
It's also one of those biological imperatives for the species and everyone has interacted with kids some, so everyone has all these Dr Spock-ass theories running
But like
If I had never even done driver's training and had only sat in a car a few times, what do I know about the ideal driving line through some curve?
Plus every kid is different which is totally cheating on their part so you can't even copy someone else's winning strategy.
I remember being called a faggot in middle school because I took ballet.
They didn't seem to understand that I got to be in a room with mirrors for walls with 8 or 9 pretty girls in leotards and tights, and sometimes I got to touch them!
Kids are scientists. They test theories and apply rulesets they've learned to new situations. They run a series of experiments to see if they get the same result, then vary the conditions to see the effect. They do this from the time they're infants... make cry noise = get held. Make different cry noise = get fed. Smile = parent smiles. I make sound = they make sound. I make different sound = they frown.
If I throw my shoes at dad, he laughs. If I throw my shoes at mom she gets mad. If I throw my shoes at mom while dad is in the car, he laughs and she gets mad at him. Therefore, if dad took my cookie, I throw my shoes at mom and dad gets in trouble.
If I ask to stay up past bedtime and 1 time in 10 they say yes, I should clearly ask every night!
I was one of those kids who in public was seen and not heard. My mom said I was always really quiet and for some reason that made loud mouth girls cling to me as a kid. I was friendly, but I wasn't looking for friendship.
Now I'm unfriendly and I'm still not looking for it on the whole. I would just like a nice close set of friends and let that be that.
I remember being called a faggot in middle school because I took ballet.
They didn't seem to understand that I got to be in a room with mirrors for walls with 8 or 9 pretty girls in leotards and tights, and sometimes I got to touch them!
my younger sister (the absolutely heinous one who is obese and cruel) is like a social scientist. i swear she's taken some mentalism training. sometimes when i visit my dad i just sit back and observe her systematically dismantle him (and her mom). she just expertly turns them against one another and viciously goes for the throat.
give us an example i am insanely curious
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Hi I'm Vee!Formerly VH; She/Her; Is an E X P E R I E N C ERegistered Userregular
I had one year in middle school where I was popular, and then I changed schools and that stopped for some reason.
Fortunately, it was shortly after that that I moved to LA, so it worked out.
my younger sister (the absolutely heinous one who is obese and cruel) is like a social scientist. i swear she's taken some mentalism training. sometimes when i visit my dad i just sit back and observe her systematically dismantle him (and her mom). she just expertly turns them against one another and viciously goes for the throat.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I just got harangued by a homeless person on the train while enjoying a random conversation with a pretty woman and her mother about Florence but Dammit, she was right, the homeless problem in London and the UK is bad and getting worse. I've seen a large increase in the number of people sleeping rough this last 6 months, roughly aligning with local government cutbacks.
But what to do?
Freedom for the Northern Isles!
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I was the oldest child, and my mom either worked nights or in later jobs she worked 60+ hours a week. I tended towards being the serious kid always reading so it just reinforced that trend till I was a teenage. Then shit happened and I went the other way completely. But I was still spending a lot of time helping to raise my siblings. I got some bullying but I hit puberty early and the bullies learned quickly that with me being a foot taller, I had a reach advantage and a deep well of anger to work with. So the bullying ended quickly, and I got a reputation for being willing to fight at the drop of a hat.
I don't mind kids. But I taught elementary school in Japan. 5th graders are still like the best age every to teach. Old enough to be able to grasp complex situation but young enough not to have hit the pre-teen douchebag stage.
I liked what one of the TED speakers said last night about kids, "They aren't born perfect, they are born to face challenge after challenge to try and overcome. So it is better to let them face and over come the challenges than keeping them as perfect as the day they were born."
Oh, also, the "asking a question 10,000 times" thing is, in my experience, generally the result of a kid trying to frame a question without really knowing how to express what they're thinking. The question they want answered is probably one that is related to, but not literally, the one they're asking.
See also: "but whhhhyyyyyyyy?"
Our rule for this is that you can ask why, but only after you've done the thing in question. This is because whyyyyyyyy is a delaying tactic that, if it's rewarded with a conversation, has the dual reinforcing qualities of time spent talking with parent + not doing undesirable task.
Empty the dishwasher.
Why do I have to do it?
You can ask after you're busy emptying the dishwasher.
I'm happy to provide reasonable responses to why, but it needs to be clear that getting the answer is not a precondition. It's something that they can learn once the task is in progress. Also, their opinion of my reason why is largely irrelevant.
This also goes to my very strict rule not to use the common adult construction "this is going to happen, OK?"
We ask each other "OK?" because it's polite, and it's understood as a conversation smoother, not an actual question. Never ask your kids if something is OK when you already know their opinion is meaningless. It just teaches them, surprise surprise, that their opinion is often meaningless.
"It's time to get in the carseat." this is good.
"Get in your carseat, OK?" this is terrible. It's never OK to not get in the carseat, the child has no choice, if he responds "no" he'll get in trouble, it's just stuffed with cognitive dissonance. Don't give your kids a choice with your language if there's not actually a choice. Flipside: look for chances to offer real choice, and be ready to accept whatever the child chooses. Don't offer dinner options when you don't want one of the options! That's just sadistic.
skippy is going to blow so much smoke into his kid's face
Stop coughing, lightweight. When I was your age we had to slice up 2 liter bottles to do this shit. You've got a superquadtendo and a glass piece with an ice catcher. Which somebody paid for by busting his ass Monday to Friday, by the way.
Patrick: "I'll only be paying attention for the first 15 minutes. I'll spend the rest of the time playing rock, paper, scissors with myself."
Drew: "Is that a euphemism for masturbating?"
Patrick: "Only if I always choose rock."
it has been brought up to me a number of times that people without kids will often have strong opinions about how kids should be raised, or what behavior is acceptable
I'LL NEVER LET MY KID BE LOUD IN PUBLIC OR WATCH TEE VEE
and I guess that changes right quick when you actually have one
I'm not above using Benadryl and schnapps to sedate my children if they're being unruly.
Not really Xanax though.
Well, maybe a little Xanax.
my girlfriend babysat for a family in a small village in Ontario when she was about 12 or 13
the single mother had a half dozen children from a half dozen different men, and was always out on a date, and hated her kids
so she would dope them with cough syrup
so my girlfriend would bring the baby into the kitchen to get something and the baby would reach up and go "ah! ah!" and she'd look up and see that he was reaching for a bottle of cough syrup.
the daughter was allowed to sleep with a hair dryer turned on and blowing in her face, in what i can only imagine is a substitute for the warmth of human affection.
the oldest son, though, is the most terrifying, because he was so stoned all the time that he would just sit on the couch and hold a controller and play Tetris, except he didn't play, he just watched the blocks fall and pile up until they reached the top and the screen said game over, and then he would hit start for a new game and do it again. for hours.
Patrick: "I'll only be paying attention for the first 15 minutes. I'll spend the rest of the time playing rock, paper, scissors with myself."
Drew: "Is that a euphemism for masturbating?"
Patrick: "Only if I always choose rock."
Today in labor history, April 25, 1886: The New York Times declares the struggl...e for an eight-hour workday to be “un-American” and calls public demonstrations for the shorter hours “labor disturbances brought about by foreigners.”
Posts
Exactly, yeah. I think both I and my parents benefited a lot from having my dad's parents in the picture. My dad was able to finish his master's and get a lucrative job that he never could've swung if he couldn't drop me off with his folks a couple evenings a week.
Hehe, kids are always pushing and testing their boundaries. One thing I've noticed with the kids at work is how attentive they are to your response when they do something that is new or outside of the norm for their behavior. They are trying to figure out how they can meaningfully interact with and/or control the world around them. A lot of times they will try doing the same new thing to see if it nets a consistent or varied response. I've noticed they tend to like consistent responses more, because it gives a sense of control over their interactions.
See also: "but whhhhyyyyyyyy?"
BLOSSOM. BLOSSOM. GET OFF THE DRAWERS. YOU'RE MAKING MOMMY DRINK AGAIN.
*sits in wicker chair crying hysterically and drinking whiskey, surrounded by cabbage patch dolls in various states of nakedness*
the look on the mother's face (even if she eventually says yes) makes me laugh every time
They didn't seem to understand that I got to be in a room with mirrors for walls with 8 or 9 pretty girls in leotards and tights, and sometimes I got to touch them!
It's also one of those biological imperatives for the species and everyone has interacted with kids some, so everyone has all these Dr Spock-ass theories running
But like
If I had never even done driver's training and had only sat in a car a few times, what do I know about the ideal driving line through some curve?
Plus every kid is different which is totally cheating on their part so you can't even copy someone else's winning strategy.
Fuckin' kids, I tells ya.
Oh well, you will be a good dad, Skippy.
You have a good demeanor for it.
Oh no you created and modified some files, maybe you got gutsy and deleted them. Stupid stuck up IT people.
eww cooties
I'm sure your child will be the best lumberjack known to man.
If I throw my shoes at dad, he laughs. If I throw my shoes at mom she gets mad. If I throw my shoes at mom while dad is in the car, he laughs and she gets mad at him. Therefore, if dad took my cookie, I throw my shoes at mom and dad gets in trouble.
If I ask to stay up past bedtime and 1 time in 10 they say yes, I should clearly ask every night!
etc.
Now I'm unfriendly and I'm still not looking for it on the whole. I would just like a nice close set of friends and let that be that.
yupppppppp
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
give us an example i am insanely curious
Fortunately, it was shortly after that that I moved to LA, so it worked out.
hugs
Skippy's going to be exactly like Calvin's dad.
Why are there hugs? :O
But what to do?
*Hulk grabs him and smacks him all around the room*
The audience was in stiches.
Also, post-credit thing:
I liked what one of the TED speakers said last night about kids, "They aren't born perfect, they are born to face challenge after challenge to try and overcome. So it is better to let them face and over come the challenges than keeping them as perfect as the day they were born."
Paraphrasing here.
just because
hugs are nice
Our rule for this is that you can ask why, but only after you've done the thing in question. This is because whyyyyyyyy is a delaying tactic that, if it's rewarded with a conversation, has the dual reinforcing qualities of time spent talking with parent + not doing undesirable task.
Empty the dishwasher.
Why do I have to do it?
You can ask after you're busy emptying the dishwasher.
I'm happy to provide reasonable responses to why, but it needs to be clear that getting the answer is not a precondition. It's something that they can learn once the task is in progress. Also, their opinion of my reason why is largely irrelevant.
This also goes to my very strict rule not to use the common adult construction "this is going to happen, OK?"
We ask each other "OK?" because it's polite, and it's understood as a conversation smoother, not an actual question. Never ask your kids if something is OK when you already know their opinion is meaningless. It just teaches them, surprise surprise, that their opinion is often meaningless.
"It's time to get in the carseat." this is good.
"Get in your carseat, OK?" this is terrible. It's never OK to not get in the carseat, the child has no choice, if he responds "no" he'll get in trouble, it's just stuffed with cognitive dissonance. Don't give your kids a choice with your language if there's not actually a choice. Flipside: look for chances to offer real choice, and be ready to accept whatever the child chooses. Don't offer dinner options when you don't want one of the options! That's just sadistic.
Stop coughing, lightweight. When I was your age we had to slice up 2 liter bottles to do this shit. You've got a superquadtendo and a glass piece with an ice catcher. Which somebody paid for by busting his ass Monday to Friday, by the way.
HEH
my girlfriend babysat for a family in a small village in Ontario when she was about 12 or 13
the single mother had a half dozen children from a half dozen different men, and was always out on a date, and hated her kids
so she would dope them with cough syrup
so my girlfriend would bring the baby into the kitchen to get something and the baby would reach up and go "ah! ah!" and she'd look up and see that he was reaching for a bottle of cough syrup.
the daughter was allowed to sleep with a hair dryer turned on and blowing in her face, in what i can only imagine is a substitute for the warmth of human affection.
the oldest son, though, is the most terrifying, because he was so stoned all the time that he would just sit on the couch and hold a controller and play Tetris, except he didn't play, he just watched the blocks fall and pile up until they reached the top and the screen said game over, and then he would hit start for a new game and do it again. for hours.
*chuckle*
I don't understand. Skippy has tattoos and therefore must be a carefree layabout stoner who doesn't care what society thinks about him.
Or did Hollywood lie to me?