This week the first fines under the new law were handed down, including one to Sergay Kondrashov, a straight man who held up a sign in support of a lesbian friend. The judge eventually found him guilty of disobeying police orders to put the sign down, but not of promoting homosexual propaganda. He was quick to point out the discrepancy.
“I was found guilty of disobeying a police request to stop the offense, but not in the offense itself. It’s funny,” he told ABC News.
“I’m not a part of the gay community. But I provide an independent struggle against this immoral and unconstitutional law,” he said.
I completely don't get where the current wave of anti-LGBT sentiment in Eastern Europe comes from. In other countries, e.g. in several African countries, there would seem to be a clear link between religion (whether Christian or Muslim) and homophobia, but in Eastern Europe it seems to be something else.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Eastern Europe is pretty Catholic. Russia is just a wanna be dictator using a convenient minority as a distraction.
This, so much this. What's the easiest strategy for a government to distract the population away (from the wealthy and major corporations raping them financially)? Blame *insert minority here* and Gays currently are the hot topic. Although I'm sure given another decade or two they'll move on to Atheists, which will be really fun...and by fun I mean absolutely horrible on probably an entirely new level. Because if it's the one group everyone hates the most, it's Atheists. I pray for the day the people wake up to these tricks and stop fighting each other rather than attacking the economic system that handed them their shitty lives.
If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"
Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
When you have a President (Bush I, if memory serves) saying that he doesn't consider atheists as Americans... well I guess it's futile to argue about who's despised more than who: we can just say that it's bad enough.
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
Every year I go to North Carolina with a large group of my friends (and my boyfriend) and rent a beach house for a week around memorial day. (Outer banks) If Amendment One becomes law, I am probably going to stop going to this vacation, as I don't really want any of my money to go to NC ever again if it passes. This would make me very sad.
I mean, I'm certainly no expert on North Carolina, but... is there really any chance at all it won't pass?
I'm from North Carolina. My dad is still down there, and he has taken the issue of the amendment on and has done a fair bit of writing on the topic.
It's my personal belief that A1 will probably pass, and be repealed in a decade or less as the state realizes they are on the losing side of a civil rights issue. But the momentum just isn't there right now, despite my dad, large facebook groups, door to door canvassers, and other people making a huge push at the end to get awareness up. I just don't think there is a manpower or the political drive to stop this from happening.
This will be the worst thing my home state has done since putting Jesse Helms in DC.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I completely don't get where the current wave of anti-LGBT sentiment in Eastern Europe comes from. In other countries, e.g. in several African countries, there would seem to be a clear link between religion (whether Christian or Muslim) and homophobia, but in Eastern Europe it seems to be something else.
There's definitely a religious aspect to it. The Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox churches are all very much anti-gay.
And then they move over here, and vote against gay marriage in America.
Atheists are already more despised than gays or communists or Muslims in America.
Uh, no.
Not that there's a lot of data on it, but according to the one comprehensive study performed by the University of Minnesota and published in the American Sociological Review, Atheists are more distrusted than homosexuals. linky.
Using data from a new national survey (2003,N = 2081), we show that Americans draw symbolic boundaries that clearly and sharply exclude atheists in both private and public life. From a list of groups that also includes Muslims, recent immigrants, and homosexuals, Americans name atheists as those least likely to share their vision of American society. They are also more likely to disapprove of their children marrying atheists. Using logistic regression models, we show that these attitudes are driven by religious affiliation and involvement as well as by social context and broader moral outlook
The data is on page 218. Now, it's not a perfect study by any means. It appears they didn't take into account opinions towards same-sex marriage, which is a huge omission. But on the basic question of "Does [this group] Not At All Agree with My Vision of American Society", Athiests take the lion's share of distrust.
I completely don't get where the current wave of anti-LGBT sentiment in Eastern Europe comes from. In other countries, e.g. in several African countries, there would seem to be a clear link between religion (whether Christian or Muslim) and homophobia, but in Eastern Europe it seems to be something else.
Eastern Europe is not exactly known for progressive attitudes on gender issues. I get this is a heavily atheist/agnostic board, but really, religion is not the sole (or even necessary) cause of homophobia. Sexism and homophobia feed on each other. "Corrective rapes" of lesbians in South Africa aren't happening because God said so. In Eastern Europe there's certainly religious conservatism feeding it, but remember the former USSR was militantly and officially atheist, and being a member of a religion doesn't mean devoutly following the tenets of its faith. Anywhere that sees gender roles as rigid and hierarchical is going to have a problem with LGBTs. (We have plenty of this in the US. Think of the guys who are terrified of a gay guy hitting on them.)
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The problem with having a crusade against atheists is that they are virtually undetectible. It's not like a skin color or orientation or even a religion people practice where there is an easy litmus test.
Also it would be very difficult to set up a system that could discriminate against atheists without also discriminating arbitrarily against religions.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
How do you practically do it though? Aside from requiring prayer at school or something like that which will both discrimate against other religions and probably ar best only make most atheists mildly uncomfortable, how do you meaningfully discriminate? You could legislate against atheist literature but even that starts to get touchy.
How do you practically do it though? Aside from requiring prayer at school or something like that which will both discrimate against other religions and probably ar best only make most atheists mildly uncomfortable, how do you meaningfully discriminate? You could legislate against atheist literature but even that starts to get touchy.
Same way as you do it with LGBT people. Mess with the outspoken ones and the others keep quiet.
Atheists are already more despised than gays or communists or Muslims in America.
Uh, no.
Not that there's a lot of data on it, but according to the one comprehensive study performed by the University of Minnesota and published in the American Sociological Review, Atheists are more distrusted than homosexuals. linky.
Using data from a new national survey (2003,N = 2081), we show that Americans draw symbolic boundaries that clearly and sharply exclude atheists in both private and public life. From a list of groups that also includes Muslims, recent immigrants, and homosexuals, Americans name atheists as those least likely to share their vision of American society. They are also more likely to disapprove of their children marrying atheists. Using logistic regression models, we show that these attitudes are driven by religious affiliation and involvement as well as by social context and broader moral outlook
The data is on page 218. Now, it's not a perfect study by any means. It appears they didn't take into account opinions towards same-sex marriage, which is a huge omission. But on the basic question of "Does [this group] Not At All Agree with My Vision of American Society", Athiests take the lion's share of distrust.
I was actually thinking of a University of British Columbia study that I'd read about in Skeptic (or was it Skeptical Inquirer?) sometime last year. There are a few other studies with similar results out there - people equate religious belief with morality, and therefore atheists are the worst people.
How do you practically do it though? Aside from requiring prayer at school or something like that which will both discrimate against other religions and probably ar best only make most atheists mildly uncomfortable, how do you meaningfully discriminate? You could legislate against atheist literature but even that starts to get touchy.
Arkansas, Maryland, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas state constitutions all either prohibit or allow the prohibition of atheists from holding public office.
How do you practically do it though? Aside from requiring prayer at school or something like that which will both discrimate against other religions and probably ar best only make most atheists mildly uncomfortable, how do you meaningfully discriminate? You could legislate against atheist literature but even that starts to get touchy.
Arkansas, Maryland, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas state constitutions all either prohibit or allow the prohibition of atheists from holding public office.
Even if those are attempted to be enforced, though, what keeps me as an atheist from simply founding the Least Holy Church of the Nonexistant God and claiming membership in it as a religion? How do you separate something like that from non-monotheistic religions like say neopaganism or nontheistic Buddhism?
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
So your suggestion for atheists who don't want to be discriminated against is for them to not be atheists anymore?
So your suggestion for atheists who don't want to be discriminated against is for them to not be atheists anymore?
Or lie about being atheists.
But really, I dont think atheists have it as bad as "the gays" even if theyre trusted less because I dont remember many news stories about bullying, beatings, and killings because the victim was an atheist.
Sure theres more ground to cover, but the climb isnt as steep (or theres less ground to cover, but its steeper?).
So your suggestion for atheists who don't want to be discriminated against is for them to not be atheists anymore?
No, just ascribe to an atheistic religion if for some reason a 'Must Have Religion To Hold Office' law isn't immediately struck down by the first judge to have a look at it, which it would be.
There are certainly religions that don't require theistic beliefs, unless your definition of theism is so broad as to be functionally useless and indistinguishable from pantheism.
But really, I dont think atheists have it as bad as "the gays" even if theyre trusted less because I dont remember many news stories about bullying, beatings, and killings because the victim was an atheist.
But really, I dont think atheists have it as bad as "the gays" even if theyre trusted less because I dont remember many news stories about bullying, beatings, and killings because the victim was an atheist.
Really?
That sure is, uhhh.... a viewpoint...... to have.
Is it odd to think that those who are bullied, beat and killed for being themselves have it worse than those who are just mistrusted? Both should be rectified, but Id rather be mistrusted than killed.
So your suggestion for atheists who don't want to be discriminated against is for them to not be atheists anymore?
Or lie about being atheists.
But really, I dont think atheists have it as bad as "the gays" even if theyre trusted less because I dont remember many news stories about bullying, beatings, and killings because the victim was an atheist.
Sure theres more ground to cover, but the climb isnt as steep (or theres less ground to cover, but its steeper?).
There's a lot more open hostility towards atheists than any other group, I'd wager.
People may be homophobic, but most people would hesitate before proudly professing their homophobia to others, lest those people or their family members be gay.
I don't go around with a neon sign professing my atheism, but I've been in many conversations wherein atheists are openly derided and spoken at in a grossly derogatory manner, including many professional settings. I once even had a coworker tell me she was refusing to be assigned to a patient because he was a professed atheist.
So your suggestion for atheists who don't want to be discriminated against is for them to not be atheists anymore?
No, just ascribe to an atheistic religion if for some reason a 'Must Have Religion To Hold Office' law isn't immediately struck down by the first judge to have a look at it, which it would be.
There are certainly religions that don't require theistic beliefs, unless your definition of theism is so broad as to be functionally useless and indistinguishable from pantheism.
Man, what? That is missing the point immensely.
"atheist" doesn't usually get used to refer to people who are opposed to a narrow band of religions sharing a distinct brand of godhead, you goose. No one calls practicing Buddhists "atheists" colloquially unless they're a pedant.
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
edited April 2012
Yeah, as pervasive as the distrust apparently is, anecdotally I don't feel like there's deep hostility against atheists among the wider population the way there is (or was) against gay people.
I suppose there are people who worry about their kids being taught by an atheist teacher, but for some reason that concern doesn't seem to be as prevalent. Who knows; maybe people don't want to trust gays with their kids the same way they don't want to trust atheists with their nukes - it's just too tempting for our evil soulless hearts.
So your suggestion for atheists who don't want to be discriminated against is for them to not be atheists anymore?
No, just ascribe to an atheistic religion if for some reason a 'Must Have Religion To Hold Office' law isn't immediately struck down by the first judge to have a look at it, which it would be.
There are certainly religions that don't require theistic beliefs, unless your definition of theism is so broad as to be functionally useless and indistinguishable from pantheism.
And the great thing about religions is that if you don't find a nontheistic religion you like, just get 10 or 20 other like minded people together and make one the fuck up.
Religion is such a broadly defined and arbitrary category that there's no effective difference between minimal religion and no religion.
That you think it doesn't happen to atheists was the part I was confused about.
Im sure it does, Im just unsure that the amount and level of bullying received by atheists is the same as or greater than the amount and level received by the gay community. But that could just be the result of a lack of media focus on the issue.
Personally, Ive never believed in god but called myself agnostic until about junior year of high school and for the past 9 years Ive considered myself an atheist (in that I dont believe a supreme being exists, but I am open to being proven wrong) and I can only think of two times where it has come up, once in high school where I was told I couldnt be as moral as someone who believed in god (which makes no sense to me) and once when I was in the hospital and we had to go over some in case of death stuff where my mother and grandmother found out I was an atheist (my mother didnt have a problem with it, although my grandmother tried to convince me that I should believe in something, even if it was a doorknob, which I mean, what?). Most of my friends are non-religious and Ive never had it come up at work. However, the experiences of the gay kids in my high school was much different than mine (not that anyone got beat or anything, I dont think it ever went beyond teasing, but I really cant know for certain). Maybe (probably) Im just lucky.
Yeah, you know, I'm sure more people say they distrust atheists (partly because they stereotype them as loud-mouthed religion-haters), but I've yet to hear of groups of punks atheist-bashing or "he looked at me like he was gonna read something out of Dawkins so I kicked his ass" or "corrective" forced prayer.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
So your suggestion for atheists who don't want to be discriminated against is for them to not be atheists anymore?
No, just ascribe to an atheistic religion if for some reason a 'Must Have Religion To Hold Office' law isn't immediately struck down by the first judge to have a look at it, which it would be.
There are certainly religions that don't require theistic beliefs, unless your definition of theism is so broad as to be functionally useless and indistinguishable from pantheism.
Well, assuming those parts of the state constitutions were upheld, most of them require some "belief in a Supreme Being," not "you have to be religious."
The legal definition of religion is anything but well-defined. Theoretically that might mean you can have anything you want be a religion (welcome to the Church of McDonalds, the tax-exempt temple of sacred burgers), but in practice it means that anything that doesn't look like a "traditional" religion is going to have a hard time getting the legal benefits of religions. Judges aren't immune to cultural prejudice, and voting populaces don't even have to pretend to be.
Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
A friend of my mom's told me that all the Founders were actually Christians and that the history books were lying. I wasn't really sure what to say to that.
A friend of my mom's told me that all the Founders were actually Christians and that the history books were lying. I wasn't really sure what to say to that.
"Wow, you sure are a stupid bitch." I guess that would annoy your mom, though.
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Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
edited April 2012
My mom has gotten 5000% times more religious in the last 10 years or so. Now everything is in 'God's hands'. It's a very weird atmosphere.
Her friend also thinks that Muslims are gonna take over the US by outbreeding us. It's nice to realize hate is dumb.
I had almost the exact same experience as emp123, and the sum total of negative consequences I've experienced regarding atheism has been that one catholic girl broke up with me after I told her.
All my gay friends have had to deal with a lifetime of difficulty and harassment. It's not the same at all.
The difference is this: a gay person has to actually seek out members of the same sex, date, etc. If you are around someone who is gay for any length of time, unless they are trying to hide it to the point that they are completely shutting you out of a large segment of their life, it's going to be pretty obvious that they are gay. There's a huge amount of opportunity for discrimination there.
Literally no one really gives a shit about anyone elses religion. I mean sure they give a shit on a global christians vs muslims level, but I've never had anyone at work or school or the like ask me about my religion or even give the slightest amount of interest that they cared. If anyone ever did, all it takes is a simple "I don't really like to get into religious discussions at work" and the topic is dead for 99% of people. It's not like I have to try to get my atheism covered under my health plan, or take my atheism to the christmas party.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
A friend of my mom's told me that all the Founders were actually Christians and that the history books were lying. I wasn't really sure what to say to that.
Just ask her what her proof is. It's a common argument, but an easily refuted one.
Be warned, however, as in dealing with anyone who has already bought into one unfounded conspiracy, no amount of logic and reason may suffice.
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The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
This, so much this. What's the easiest strategy for a government to distract the population away (from the wealthy and major corporations raping them financially)? Blame *insert minority here* and Gays currently are the hot topic. Although I'm sure given another decade or two they'll move on to Atheists, which will be really fun...and by fun I mean absolutely horrible on probably an entirely new level. Because if it's the one group everyone hates the most, it's Atheists. I pray for the day the people wake up to these tricks and stop fighting each other rather than attacking the economic system that handed them their shitty lives.
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Uh, no.
I'm from North Carolina. My dad is still down there, and he has taken the issue of the amendment on and has done a fair bit of writing on the topic.
http://www.artonissues.com/2012/04/discrimination-and-amendment-one-a-compilation/
It's my personal belief that A1 will probably pass, and be repealed in a decade or less as the state realizes they are on the losing side of a civil rights issue. But the momentum just isn't there right now, despite my dad, large facebook groups, door to door canvassers, and other people making a huge push at the end to get awareness up. I just don't think there is a manpower or the political drive to stop this from happening.
This will be the worst thing my home state has done since putting Jesse Helms in DC.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
And then they move over here, and vote against gay marriage in America.
Not that there's a lot of data on it, but according to the one comprehensive study performed by the University of Minnesota and published in the American Sociological Review, Atheists are more distrusted than homosexuals. linky.
The data is on page 218. Now, it's not a perfect study by any means. It appears they didn't take into account opinions towards same-sex marriage, which is a huge omission. But on the basic question of "Does [this group] Not At All Agree with My Vision of American Society", Athiests take the lion's share of distrust.
Eastern Europe is not exactly known for progressive attitudes on gender issues. I get this is a heavily atheist/agnostic board, but really, religion is not the sole (or even necessary) cause of homophobia. Sexism and homophobia feed on each other. "Corrective rapes" of lesbians in South Africa aren't happening because God said so. In Eastern Europe there's certainly religious conservatism feeding it, but remember the former USSR was militantly and officially atheist, and being a member of a religion doesn't mean devoutly following the tenets of its faith. Anywhere that sees gender roles as rigid and hierarchical is going to have a problem with LGBTs. (We have plenty of this in the US. Think of the guys who are terrified of a gay guy hitting on them.)
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Also it would be very difficult to set up a system that could discriminate against atheists without also discriminating arbitrarily against religions.
"It doesn't mean 'freedom FROM religion'".
Same way as you do it with LGBT people. Mess with the outspoken ones and the others keep quiet.
I was actually thinking of a University of British Columbia study that I'd read about in Skeptic (or was it Skeptical Inquirer?) sometime last year. There are a few other studies with similar results out there - people equate religious belief with morality, and therefore atheists are the worst people.
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Arkansas, Maryland, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas state constitutions all either prohibit or allow the prohibition of atheists from holding public office.
Even if those are attempted to be enforced, though, what keeps me as an atheist from simply founding the Least Holy Church of the Nonexistant God and claiming membership in it as a religion? How do you separate something like that from non-monotheistic religions like say neopaganism or nontheistic Buddhism?
Hey guys, I've figured out the solution for all this anti-gay stuff.
Or lie about being atheists.
But really, I dont think atheists have it as bad as "the gays" even if theyre trusted less because I dont remember many news stories about bullying, beatings, and killings because the victim was an atheist.
Sure theres more ground to cover, but the climb isnt as steep (or theres less ground to cover, but its steeper?).
There are certainly religions that don't require theistic beliefs, unless your definition of theism is so broad as to be functionally useless and indistinguishable from pantheism.
Really?
That sure is, uhhh.... a viewpoint...... to have.
Is it odd to think that those who are bullied, beat and killed for being themselves have it worse than those who are just mistrusted? Both should be rectified, but Id rather be mistrusted than killed.
There's a lot more open hostility towards atheists than any other group, I'd wager.
People may be homophobic, but most people would hesitate before proudly professing their homophobia to others, lest those people or their family members be gay.
I don't go around with a neon sign professing my atheism, but I've been in many conversations wherein atheists are openly derided and spoken at in a grossly derogatory manner, including many professional settings. I once even had a coworker tell me she was refusing to be assigned to a patient because he was a professed atheist.
Man, what? That is missing the point immensely.
"atheist" doesn't usually get used to refer to people who are opposed to a narrow band of religions sharing a distinct brand of godhead, you goose. No one calls practicing Buddhists "atheists" colloquially unless they're a pedant.
I suppose there are people who worry about their kids being taught by an atheist teacher, but for some reason that concern doesn't seem to be as prevalent. Who knows; maybe people don't want to trust gays with their kids the same way they don't want to trust atheists with their nukes - it's just too tempting for our evil soulless hearts.
And the great thing about religions is that if you don't find a nontheistic religion you like, just get 10 or 20 other like minded people together and make one the fuck up.
Religion is such a broadly defined and arbitrary category that there's no effective difference between minimal religion and no religion.
Im sure it does, Im just unsure that the amount and level of bullying received by atheists is the same as or greater than the amount and level received by the gay community. But that could just be the result of a lack of media focus on the issue.
Personally, Ive never believed in god but called myself agnostic until about junior year of high school and for the past 9 years Ive considered myself an atheist (in that I dont believe a supreme being exists, but I am open to being proven wrong) and I can only think of two times where it has come up, once in high school where I was told I couldnt be as moral as someone who believed in god (which makes no sense to me) and once when I was in the hospital and we had to go over some in case of death stuff where my mother and grandmother found out I was an atheist (my mother didnt have a problem with it, although my grandmother tried to convince me that I should believe in something, even if it was a doorknob, which I mean, what?). Most of my friends are non-religious and Ive never had it come up at work. However, the experiences of the gay kids in my high school was much different than mine (not that anyone got beat or anything, I dont think it ever went beyond teasing, but I really cant know for certain). Maybe (probably) Im just lucky.
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Well, assuming those parts of the state constitutions were upheld, most of them require some "belief in a Supreme Being," not "you have to be religious."
The legal definition of religion is anything but well-defined. Theoretically that might mean you can have anything you want be a religion (welcome to the Church of McDonalds, the tax-exempt temple of sacred burgers), but in practice it means that anything that doesn't look like a "traditional" religion is going to have a hard time getting the legal benefits of religions. Judges aren't immune to cultural prejudice, and voting populaces don't even have to pretend to be.
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"Wow, you sure are a stupid bitch." I guess that would annoy your mom, though.
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Her friend also thinks that Muslims are gonna take over the US by outbreeding us. It's nice to realize hate is dumb.
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All my gay friends have had to deal with a lifetime of difficulty and harassment. It's not the same at all.
The difference is this: a gay person has to actually seek out members of the same sex, date, etc. If you are around someone who is gay for any length of time, unless they are trying to hide it to the point that they are completely shutting you out of a large segment of their life, it's going to be pretty obvious that they are gay. There's a huge amount of opportunity for discrimination there.
Literally no one really gives a shit about anyone elses religion. I mean sure they give a shit on a global christians vs muslims level, but I've never had anyone at work or school or the like ask me about my religion or even give the slightest amount of interest that they cared. If anyone ever did, all it takes is a simple "I don't really like to get into religious discussions at work" and the topic is dead for 99% of people. It's not like I have to try to get my atheism covered under my health plan, or take my atheism to the christmas party.
Just ask her what her proof is. It's a common argument, but an easily refuted one.
Be warned, however, as in dealing with anyone who has already bought into one unfounded conspiracy, no amount of logic and reason may suffice.