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[GW2]Making a new thread for the BWE. See you guys on Aspenwood soon!

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Posts

  • MadpoetMadpoet Registered User regular
    steejee wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    Missing features are troubling because this is generally the time for tuning, not adding.

    What's missing? Seriously, what's missing? There's nothing I was expecting that isn't here in one form or another - Anet has been good about not tossing out lofty promises for features that do not yet exist. Some need lots of improvement (Overflow, FPS, pets, etc), others are in great shape already (skill selection, combat, art/music, etc). For a game 2+ months out minimum GW2 is in great shape, especially when most people seem to be having tons of fun inspite of the issues.

    I have encountered no issues that I think couldn't be resolved before a release.

    As noted above, my issues were with implementing districts without a feature to join the district of a party member, and the lack of ability to trade items directly between two people. The latter reminds me a lot of Auto Assault, where the white knights insisted that the lack of an auction house was "to build a better community". Now an AH and no secure trade is "to build a better economy".
    Now, no district switching? Explain to me the thought process that allows that to slip. Did someone decide that server cap divided by the number of zones in the game was sufficiently large, so they'd never have a long queue? Do they think their fans have no friends, and thus won't mind being unable to form a party that didn't originate in a given instance?

  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    From reading the dev notes it seems like it was intended that you would be able to stick with your party, but for some reason wasnt working properly when you were traveling between districts. They said if you went down to like Kessex with your party and traveled to queensdale it would work correctly, but not from the cities.

    When the choice is not to have a BWE or get a feature fixed up, they chose to have the BWE. There WILL be known bugs (for example several missions were admittedly too hard, and the fixes were in place but not ready for this BWE because it didnt make the deadline).

    I dont think any arenanet devs thought we had no friends, dammit most of their videos are like 'we want you to play with your friends'.

    Draygo on
  • MadpoetMadpoet Registered User regular
    Cobalt60 wrote: »
    I don't see the problem with not having peer to peer trading without using the trading post.

    If you want to sell or buy something, go to the trading post. If you're standing around yelling WTS Sword, you're doing it very very wrong.

    If you're friend gets an item they can't use and you have an item you can't use you can just mail each other the items. You don't need COD because you know each other and there should be a degree of trust.

    Use the trading post.

    Are you seriously defending the lack of a quality of life feature that's been in every MMO ever since always?

    Here are the benefits to a trade window: The trade window allows me to securely transfer items to a person and guarantee I get the promised items in return. I can negotiate a trade that is outside the parameters of the trading post, to give someone a better or worse deal due to them being in my favor, or to use alternate currency. I do not have to return to a particular location to make a trade, so I can complete the transaction in the field. I can prove I possess an item before concluding a deal, lessening the chance of scams. Cutting down on scams lessens CS load, and improves response times for all players.

    Now: In what way is leaving this feature out improving the game? Please use a number two pencil and sign your name legibly.

  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I do remember them talking about people congregating in trading districts. like currently people go to certain places in gw1 to trade. I do think its a planned but not complete feature. Probably wasn't tuned enough to make the cut. Lack of a direct trade does not hurt my evangelism for the game. I think it will be there by release. But I can see how the whole overflow fiasco can hurt it, and I'm sure they are working on a solution right now to make sure its working properly for release.

    Draygo on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    The overflow thing would have made my GF cancel her preorder if it weren't a presale. Logging in at the same time and having no way to play together is not acceptable, and it's a thing that GW1 had handled so well, too. For me, it was the lack of a trade interface. The game is this far along and trade isn't implemented yet?!

    But, both of those things are obviously going to get fixed, so I'm not a doubter yet. Now the atrocious Norn faces and voice acting? Eeeep...

    You trade through the mail system.

    Overflow sucked this time, but that's why it's beta.

    You do? Weird, I didn't see an option marked "Only let the person accept this mail if they respond with 5 ectos and a yak's bladder".

    If you want to trade, there's a trading post for it. They may at some point add a COD feature to the mail.

    They may not though. I'm betting they are gonna avoid that to continue to emphasize the game wide economy.

    Overflow sucked this time because it was poorly implemented and lacked a method of switching to the sever of your party members.

    Yes, that's why the game is still in Beta.

    I think they'll add it right quick when their CS department is overwhelmed by people complaining about scammers. "Oh, a mighty sword of manliness dropped? Mail it to me and I'll mail you this staff of ultimate awesome!" And no amount of blaming the victim will keep them from writing CS and demanding they return the MSOM, ban the scammer, and a pony.

    "If you want to trade, use the trading post" replies are alot easier and cheaper.

    They've worked hard to make the economy game wide, I doubt they are gonna go back on that.


    Yes, it's a beta. But it's troubling that the first major non-NDA public viewing lacks those features. I'm already in for $150. But after this weekend, I'm waiting a month before selling it to the rest of my unconverted friends.

    I'm not sure you quite get the Beta concept if you think this.

    Also, this was the first test of the overflow system and they've already said that making it work properly is first priority.

    Don't get the beta concept? Haha... I paid my $4 to beta test UO. (Or was that free and EQ wanted $4? Long time ago.) I think you're drinking the white knight kool-aid a little hard if you don't get this: Some fairly obvious features are missing, and that worries me enough to hold back my evangelism. The idea that these features are deliberately missing is completely ludicrous.

    The fact of the matter is the beta has been going on for a while. Missing features are troubling because this is generally the time for tuning, not adding. And this is MOST CERTAINLY the time for fans to say "Hey, this shit sucks, change it", and a bad time for EVERYTHING IS AWESOME. Because the last game that I saw where the EVERYTHING IS AWESOME folks dominated the conversation so hard during beta was Hellgate: London.

    Since when did "Betas gave missing features" become white knighting?

    I mean really, you are just being a fucking goose now.

  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    Also keep in mind that MMO's feature add in beta and even after release.

    I dont see how they wont fix the overflow and give us that trade option, really.

  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    At one point there was no walking in Guild Wars 2. The fans objected, and lo and behold, the BWE had walking.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Madpoet wrote: »
    steejee wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    Missing features are troubling because this is generally the time for tuning, not adding.

    What's missing? Seriously, what's missing? There's nothing I was expecting that isn't here in one form or another - Anet has been good about not tossing out lofty promises for features that do not yet exist. Some need lots of improvement (Overflow, FPS, pets, etc), others are in great shape already (skill selection, combat, art/music, etc). For a game 2+ months out minimum GW2 is in great shape, especially when most people seem to be having tons of fun inspite of the issues.

    I have encountered no issues that I think couldn't be resolved before a release.

    As noted above, my issues were with implementing districts without a feature to join the district of a party member, and the lack of ability to trade items directly between two people. The latter reminds me a lot of Auto Assault, where the white knights insisted that the lack of an auction house was "to build a better community". Now an AH and no secure trade is "to build a better economy".
    Now, no district switching? Explain to me the thought process that allows that to slip. Did someone decide that server cap divided by the number of zones in the game was sufficiently large, so they'd never have a long queue? Do they think their fans have no friends, and thus won't mind being unable to form a party that didn't originate in a given instance?

    Except no one is defending the current overflow implementation. People are just pointing out it's a beta and thus not all features are in and working perfectly. Which I said to you. Even the devs have said it's their #1 priority right now. Even the guy who posts here who works at GW2 said as much. So yeah, wtf are you going on about again?


    As for direct trading, it's done through the mail system or the trading post system currently. I'm pretty sure they've said there's no plans for a trading window.

    I doubt this will change or much in the way of mail trading systems will be implemented because, again, they are very clearly trying to create a game-wide economy and having people stand around spamming in city chat and trying to trade shit personally undermines this. You can disagree but their entire setup is clearly built around the philosophy of destroying server-specific economies. GW1 was the same, what with having no servers in the first place.

    shryke on
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    Fuck people who want to trade personally instead of putting their shit up on the auction house. They're almost as bad as taurens on a war mammoth mount standing in front of important quest NPCs/vendors.

  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Christ that's a lot of honking over something so insignificant. Fact of the matter is I can count how many times I did an item for item trade with a stranger on one hand, this is encompassing every MMO I've ever played. The way the looting works in this game, if you're grouped and someone picks something up they can't use but they know you can use well they just might be a righteous dude and send it to you. Or they might not. You can't exactly see what they looted after all, now can you?

    Edit: And something I'd like to point out, the TRADING POST(it isn't an auction house) can allow safe item for item trading with little difficulty. I'm sure the tech-wizards working on it, IE people like Tivac over at SomethingAwful and WaM here with us, would be taking into consideration implementing it.

    I mean seriously the act of trading an item for another item is so uncommon it doesn't need a dedicated UI element for it, it can just be built into something existing like the trading post.

    Arthil on
    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: Arthil
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Madpoet wrote: »
    Cobalt60 wrote: »
    I don't see the problem with not having peer to peer trading without using the trading post.

    If you want to sell or buy something, go to the trading post. If you're standing around yelling WTS Sword, you're doing it very very wrong.

    If you're friend gets an item they can't use and you have an item you can't use you can just mail each other the items. You don't need COD because you know each other and there should be a degree of trust.

    Use the trading post.

    Are you seriously defending the lack of a quality of life feature that's been in every MMO ever since always?

    Here are the benefits to a trade window: The trade window allows me to securely transfer items to a person and guarantee I get the promised items in return. I can negotiate a trade that is outside the parameters of the trading post, to give someone a better or worse deal due to them being in my favor, or to use alternate currency. I do not have to return to a particular location to make a trade, so I can complete the transaction in the field. I can prove I possess an item before concluding a deal, lessening the chance of scams. Cutting down on scams lessens CS load, and improves response times for all players.

    Now: In what way is leaving this feature out improving the game? Please use a number two pencil and sign your name legibly.

    And why would they want this?

    This is not a quality of life thing, it is a specific economic system you want that they seem very intent on not having.


    And you can use both the trading post and the mail at any location in the game. And, at release or something I think they've said even on your phone or the like.

    shryke on
  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    One bonus of direct player trading is when the AH doesnt work :V

    One huge downside is there will be a district somewhere where people are spamming the local chat with trade deals.

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    The important thing is to take the discussion over there where they're asking for feedback and not just on here, where only a couple devs who may only be tangentially in-touch with what you're complaining about can see it.

    Yeah, there were features that may have been removed for the BWE because it's a publicity thing. The BWE was a stress test. They needed to stress the servers and make sure things were working well, and they sure as heck got that. However, if you add in a feature that isn't 100% done into that kind of test, people look at it and go "Well that feature sucks, come on lets give back our preorders". And that's what happens with every MMO out there.

    However, that's still no reason not to mention it to them. Tell them what's going on, and say "hey, we want this feature!" or "hey, pigeonholing this feature into another one wont work because X and Z".

    If someone wants to sell something to someone next to them they shouldn't have to go put it on the trading block to do it. Not having the feature didn't stop people from turning local chat into a market or generally being idiots, so having it wont change it much. And even if you did use the current trading block to do it, you'd still have to run back to the traders to pick it up when it was right next to you.

  • Cobalt60Cobalt60 regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Madpoet wrote: »
    Cobalt60 wrote: »
    I don't see the problem with not having peer to peer trading without using the trading post.

    If you want to sell or buy something, go to the trading post. If you're standing around yelling WTS Sword, you're doing it very very wrong.

    If you're friend gets an item they can't use and you have an item you can't use you can just mail each other the items. You don't need COD because you know each other and there should be a degree of trust.

    Use the trading post.

    Are you seriously defending the lack of a quality of life feature that's been in every MMO ever since always?

    Here are the benefits to a trade window: The trade window allows me to securely transfer items to a person and guarantee I get the promised items in return. I can negotiate a trade that is outside the parameters of the trading post, to give someone a better or worse deal due to them being in my favor, or to use alternate currency. I do not have to return to a particular location to make a trade, so I can complete the transaction in the field. I can prove I possess an item before concluding a deal, lessening the chance of scams. Cutting down on scams lessens CS load, and improves response times for all players.

    Now: In what way is leaving this feature out improving the game? Please use a number two pencil and sign your name legibly.

    It improves the game by not having some guy spamming WTS SWORD LOL GUYS BUY MY SWORD at all the Dynamic events.

    I give you best price! $10 US for 1000 gold!

    Cobalt60 on
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Well I think that will still exist to a point Draygo. People can go "WTB Wicked Dragon Sword of Critical Hit" and some guy can go "I can make that, put up a buy order on the trading post."

    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: Arthil
  • MadpoetMadpoet Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    The overflow thing would have made my GF cancel her preorder if it weren't a presale. Logging in at the same time and having no way to play together is not acceptable, and it's a thing that GW1 had handled so well, too. For me, it was the lack of a trade interface. The game is this far along and trade isn't implemented yet?!

    But, both of those things are obviously going to get fixed, so I'm not a doubter yet. Now the atrocious Norn faces and voice acting? Eeeep...

    You trade through the mail system.

    Overflow sucked this time, but that's why it's beta.

    You do? Weird, I didn't see an option marked "Only let the person accept this mail if they respond with 5 ectos and a yak's bladder".

    If you want to trade, there's a trading post for it. They may at some point add a COD feature to the mail.

    They may not though. I'm betting they are gonna avoid that to continue to emphasize the game wide economy.

    Overflow sucked this time because it was poorly implemented and lacked a method of switching to the sever of your party members.

    Yes, that's why the game is still in Beta.

    I think they'll add it right quick when their CS department is overwhelmed by people complaining about scammers. "Oh, a mighty sword of manliness dropped? Mail it to me and I'll mail you this staff of ultimate awesome!" And no amount of blaming the victim will keep them from writing CS and demanding they return the MSOM, ban the scammer, and a pony.

    "If you want to trade, use the trading post" replies are alot easier and cheaper.

    They've worked hard to make the economy game wide, I doubt they are gonna go back on that.


    Yes, it's a beta. But it's troubling that the first major non-NDA public viewing lacks those features. I'm already in for $150. But after this weekend, I'm waiting a month before selling it to the rest of my unconverted friends.

    I'm not sure you quite get the Beta concept if you think this.

    Also, this was the first test of the overflow system and they've already said that making it work properly is first priority.

    Don't get the beta concept? Haha... I paid my $4 to beta test UO. (Or was that free and EQ wanted $4? Long time ago.) I think you're drinking the white knight kool-aid a little hard if you don't get this: Some fairly obvious features are missing, and that worries me enough to hold back my evangelism. The idea that these features are deliberately missing is completely ludicrous.

    The fact of the matter is the beta has been going on for a while. Missing features are troubling because this is generally the time for tuning, not adding. And this is MOST CERTAINLY the time for fans to say "Hey, this shit sucks, change it", and a bad time for EVERYTHING IS AWESOME. Because the last game that I saw where the EVERYTHING IS AWESOME folks dominated the conversation so hard during beta was Hellgate: London.

    Since when did "Betas gave missing features" become white knighting?

    I mean really, you are just being a fucking goose now.

    Why do I think there's serious white knight going on? Because my first post was "This sucks, but I think it will be fixed." And even that stirred up the hornets nest.
    Betas have missing features. True. But this isn't the start of beta. This is what is supposedly a close to launch version of the code, and in my ever so humble opinion the missing features are puzzling choices for omission. The "just use a similar, but not functionally equivalent feature" argument does not change the fact that the feature is missing.

  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    The overflow thing would have made my GF cancel her preorder if it weren't a presale. Logging in at the same time and having no way to play together is not acceptable, and it's a thing that GW1 had handled so well, too. For me, it was the lack of a trade interface. The game is this far along and trade isn't implemented yet?!

    But, both of those things are obviously going to get fixed, so I'm not a doubter yet. Now the atrocious Norn faces and voice acting? Eeeep...

    You trade through the mail system.

    Overflow sucked this time, but that's why it's beta.

    You do? Weird, I didn't see an option marked "Only let the person accept this mail if they respond with 5 ectos and a yak's bladder".

    If you want to trade, there's a trading post for it. They may at some point add a COD feature to the mail.

    They may not though. I'm betting they are gonna avoid that to continue to emphasize the game wide economy.

    Overflow sucked this time because it was poorly implemented and lacked a method of switching to the sever of your party members.

    Yes, that's why the game is still in Beta.

    I think they'll add it right quick when their CS department is overwhelmed by people complaining about scammers. "Oh, a mighty sword of manliness dropped? Mail it to me and I'll mail you this staff of ultimate awesome!" And no amount of blaming the victim will keep them from writing CS and demanding they return the MSOM, ban the scammer, and a pony.

    "If you want to trade, use the trading post" replies are alot easier and cheaper.

    They've worked hard to make the economy game wide, I doubt they are gonna go back on that.


    Yes, it's a beta. But it's troubling that the first major non-NDA public viewing lacks those features. I'm already in for $150. But after this weekend, I'm waiting a month before selling it to the rest of my unconverted friends.

    I'm not sure you quite get the Beta concept if you think this.

    Also, this was the first test of the overflow system and they've already said that making it work properly is first priority.

    Don't get the beta concept? Haha... I paid my $4 to beta test UO. (Or was that free and EQ wanted $4? Long time ago.) I think you're drinking the white knight kool-aid a little hard if you don't get this: Some fairly obvious features are missing, and that worries me enough to hold back my evangelism. The idea that these features are deliberately missing is completely ludicrous.

    The fact of the matter is the beta has been going on for a while. Missing features are troubling because this is generally the time for tuning, not adding. And this is MOST CERTAINLY the time for fans to say "Hey, this shit sucks, change it", and a bad time for EVERYTHING IS AWESOME. Because the last game that I saw where the EVERYTHING IS AWESOME folks dominated the conversation so hard during beta was Hellgate: London.

    Since when did "Betas gave missing features" become white knighting?

    I mean really, you are just being a fucking goose now.

    Why do I think there's serious white knight going on? Because my first post was "This sucks, but I think it will be fixed." And even that stirred up the hornets nest.
    Betas have missing features. True. But this isn't the start of beta. This is what is supposedly a close to launch version of the code, and in my ever so humble opinion the missing features are puzzling choices for omission. The "just use a similar, but not functionally equivalent feature" argument does not change the fact that the feature is missing.

    Actually we could be very far away from release, don't try to use that sort of logic when ArenaNet have said themselves the release date of the game is dependent upon these tests.

    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: Arthil
  • Cobalt60Cobalt60 regular Registered User regular
    Arthil wrote: »
    Well I think that will still exist to a point Draygo. People can go "WTB Wicked Dragon Sword of Critical Hit" and some guy can go "I can make that, put up a buy order on the trading post."

    You could just do that anyway, without having to say anything in local chat.

    And this way people from every server will see it.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    The overflow thing would have made my GF cancel her preorder if it weren't a presale. Logging in at the same time and having no way to play together is not acceptable, and it's a thing that GW1 had handled so well, too. For me, it was the lack of a trade interface. The game is this far along and trade isn't implemented yet?!

    But, both of those things are obviously going to get fixed, so I'm not a doubter yet. Now the atrocious Norn faces and voice acting? Eeeep...

    You trade through the mail system.

    Overflow sucked this time, but that's why it's beta.

    You do? Weird, I didn't see an option marked "Only let the person accept this mail if they respond with 5 ectos and a yak's bladder".

    If you want to trade, there's a trading post for it. They may at some point add a COD feature to the mail.

    They may not though. I'm betting they are gonna avoid that to continue to emphasize the game wide economy.

    Overflow sucked this time because it was poorly implemented and lacked a method of switching to the sever of your party members.

    Yes, that's why the game is still in Beta.

    I think they'll add it right quick when their CS department is overwhelmed by people complaining about scammers. "Oh, a mighty sword of manliness dropped? Mail it to me and I'll mail you this staff of ultimate awesome!" And no amount of blaming the victim will keep them from writing CS and demanding they return the MSOM, ban the scammer, and a pony.

    "If you want to trade, use the trading post" replies are alot easier and cheaper.

    They've worked hard to make the economy game wide, I doubt they are gonna go back on that.


    Yes, it's a beta. But it's troubling that the first major non-NDA public viewing lacks those features. I'm already in for $150. But after this weekend, I'm waiting a month before selling it to the rest of my unconverted friends.

    I'm not sure you quite get the Beta concept if you think this.

    Also, this was the first test of the overflow system and they've already said that making it work properly is first priority.

    Don't get the beta concept? Haha... I paid my $4 to beta test UO. (Or was that free and EQ wanted $4? Long time ago.) I think you're drinking the white knight kool-aid a little hard if you don't get this: Some fairly obvious features are missing, and that worries me enough to hold back my evangelism. The idea that these features are deliberately missing is completely ludicrous.

    The fact of the matter is the beta has been going on for a while. Missing features are troubling because this is generally the time for tuning, not adding. And this is MOST CERTAINLY the time for fans to say "Hey, this shit sucks, change it", and a bad time for EVERYTHING IS AWESOME. Because the last game that I saw where the EVERYTHING IS AWESOME folks dominated the conversation so hard during beta was Hellgate: London.

    Since when did "Betas gave missing features" become white knighting?

    I mean really, you are just being a fucking goose now.

    Why do I think there's serious white knight going on? Because my first post was "This sucks, but I think it will be fixed." And even that stirred up the hornets nest.
    Betas have missing features. True. But this isn't the start of beta. This is what is supposedly a close to launch version of the code, and in my ever so humble opinion the missing features are puzzling choices for omission.

    According to whom? We don't even have a release date. It's certainly a robust and playable version, but it's not done or it would be released.

    Your first post was "OMG, overflow sucks. I almost cancelled my pre-purchase over it!". And people, very gently, said "Dude, it's a Beta. Of course some features don't work. Why would you cancel a pre-purchase over a beta not being fully finished?". That's not even close to white knighting unless you are a silly goose.

    The "just use a similar, but not functionally equivalent feature" argument does not change the fact that the feature is missing.

    It does change the fact that this feature being missing may be intended, not oversight.

    shryke on
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madpoet wrote: »
    The overflow thing would have made my GF cancel her preorder if it weren't a presale. Logging in at the same time and having no way to play together is not acceptable, and it's a thing that GW1 had handled so well, too. For me, it was the lack of a trade interface. The game is this far along and trade isn't implemented yet?!

    But, both of those things are obviously going to get fixed, so I'm not a doubter yet. Now the atrocious Norn faces and voice acting? Eeeep...

    You trade through the mail system.

    Overflow sucked this time, but that's why it's beta.

    You do? Weird, I didn't see an option marked "Only let the person accept this mail if they respond with 5 ectos and a yak's bladder".

    If you want to trade, there's a trading post for it. They may at some point add a COD feature to the mail.

    They may not though. I'm betting they are gonna avoid that to continue to emphasize the game wide economy.

    Overflow sucked this time because it was poorly implemented and lacked a method of switching to the sever of your party members.

    Yes, that's why the game is still in Beta.

    I think they'll add it right quick when their CS department is overwhelmed by people complaining about scammers. "Oh, a mighty sword of manliness dropped? Mail it to me and I'll mail you this staff of ultimate awesome!" And no amount of blaming the victim will keep them from writing CS and demanding they return the MSOM, ban the scammer, and a pony.

    "If you want to trade, use the trading post" replies are alot easier and cheaper.

    They've worked hard to make the economy game wide, I doubt they are gonna go back on that.


    Yes, it's a beta. But it's troubling that the first major non-NDA public viewing lacks those features. I'm already in for $150. But after this weekend, I'm waiting a month before selling it to the rest of my unconverted friends.

    I'm not sure you quite get the Beta concept if you think this.

    Also, this was the first test of the overflow system and they've already said that making it work properly is first priority.

    Don't get the beta concept? Haha... I paid my $4 to beta test UO. (Or was that free and EQ wanted $4? Long time ago.) I think you're drinking the white knight kool-aid a little hard if you don't get this: Some fairly obvious features are missing, and that worries me enough to hold back my evangelism. The idea that these features are deliberately missing is completely ludicrous.

    The fact of the matter is the beta has been going on for a while. Missing features are troubling because this is generally the time for tuning, not adding. And this is MOST CERTAINLY the time for fans to say "Hey, this shit sucks, change it", and a bad time for EVERYTHING IS AWESOME. Because the last game that I saw where the EVERYTHING IS AWESOME folks dominated the conversation so hard during beta was Hellgate: London.

    Since when did "Betas gave missing features" become white knighting?

    I mean really, you are just being a fucking goose now.

    Why do I think there's serious white knight going on? Because my first post was "This sucks, but I think it will be fixed." And even that stirred up the hornets nest.
    Betas have missing features. True. But this isn't the start of beta. This is what is supposedly a close to launch version of the code, and in my ever so humble opinion the missing features are puzzling choices for omission. The "just use a similar, but not functionally equivalent feature" argument does not change the fact that the feature is missing.

    The code is probably a lot less finished than you think. There have been several devs on the official forum pointing out that "yeah we didn't get to implement that yet" or "we know, we're working on it" for major issues. Also, there's two entire races, about 50 levels, a bunch of cities, areas and content missing from the Beta version of the code. So, yeah, what we saw in the BWE was not near the finished version.
    shryke wrote: »
    The "just use a similar, but not functionally equivalent feature" argument does not change the fact that the feature is missing.

    It does change the fact that this feature being missing may be intended, not oversight.

    But what are you using to back that up such that you continue to repeat it as a statement of fact?

    Dedwrekka on
  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    poet, often people get sidetracked on things like tone. Especially when you spend a lot of words argueing something that isnt terribly significant.

    No direct trading at this point - not significant
    overflow issues - significant but it has been addressed by anet directly as not WAI.

    When you use the following words:
    Now, no district switching? Explain to me the thought process that allows that to slip. Did someone decide that server cap divided by the number of zones in the game was sufficiently large, so they'd never have a long queue? Do they think their fans have no friends, and thus won't mind being unable to form a party that didn't originate in a given instance?
    what are you even trying to imply? That anet cant think?

    These comments you are making right there, is what the 'white knights' are jumping on. I see your concerns are completely valid but implying things like you did is something i strongly disapprove of because I have faith that Anet plans to address these well before release, and probably before next BWE. (the overflow thing especially).

    Draygo on
  • YougottawannaYougottawanna Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Is there a place that explains how combo skills work? Because I don't get how they work...

    Here's a blog post: http://www.arena.net/blog/guild-wars-2-development-update-by-jon-peters

    Basically you put down a "combo field" via various skills and then use a "combo finisher" in relation to that field and you get a combo.

    So, like, Fire on the ground is a fire combo field. Fire a projectile finisher through it and your projectile now has fire damage on it too. Leap onto it and you get some other effect.

    You'll see "Combo Field: <type>" or "Combo Finisher: <type>" listed under the skill descriptions.

    Aha thanks...

    But there's something else: there seem to be combo skills that work within one class...

    Here's a specific example: I went here: gw2.luna-atra.fr/skills_tool/

    I chose thief with MH sword, off-hand pistol (it probably doesn't matter what you offhand but whatever). Under the 1 skillslot there's three skills: slice, then slash, then crippling strike. What are slash and crippling strike? I don't remember ever seeing them in-game.

  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Is there a place that explains how combo skills work? Because I don't get how they work...

    Here's a blog post: http://www.arena.net/blog/guild-wars-2-development-update-by-jon-peters

    Basically you put down a "combo field" via various skills and then use a "combo finisher" in relation to that field and you get a combo.

    So, like, Fire on the ground is a fire combo field. Fire a projectile finisher through it and your projectile now has fire damage on it too. Leap onto it and you get some other effect.

    You'll see "Combo Field: <type>" or "Combo Finisher: <type>" listed under the skill descriptions.

    Aha thanks...

    But there's something else: there seem to be combo skills that work within one class...

    Here's a specific example: I went here: gw2.luna-atra.fr/skills_tool/

    I chose thief with MH sword, off-hand pistol (it probably doesn't matter what you offhand but whatever). Under the 1 skillslot there's three skills: slice, then slash, then crippling strike. What are slash and crippling strike? I don't remember ever seeing them in-game.

    For clarity purposes, those aren't combos, they're chains. They occur naturally when you auto-attack.

  • Cobalt60Cobalt60 regular Registered User regular
    Ahhh, those are chain skills. Basically if you have skill 1 on auto attack it will chain through those skills in order. (i.e Slice -> Slash -> Crippling Strike)

  • ShenShen Registered User regular
    GW2 was funny because at times, particularly in the personal quest instances before you have to make a choice or before facing up to a boss, I kept having to resist the urge to hit F5 :P I also think I looked at the chat panel a grand total of three times. It's funny how much it felt like a single player game to me, even with all the other people running around.

    3DS: 2234-8122-8398 | Battle.net (EU): Ladi#2485
    ladi.png
  • YougottawannaYougottawanna Registered User regular
    Cobalt60 wrote: »
    Ahhh, those are chain skills. Basically if you have skill 1 on auto attack it will chain through those skills in order. (i.e Slice -> Slash -> Crippling Strike)

    Heeeeeyyyyy cool.

    This clinches it: I'm going thief for my main.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The "just use a similar, but not functionally equivalent feature" argument does not change the fact that the feature is missing.

    It does change the fact that this feature being missing may be intended, not oversight.

    But what are you using to back that up such that you continue to repeat it as a statement of fact?

    I'm not repeating it as a statement of fact. I've continually said it was my feeling or my opinion. Even in what you quoted I used "may" for a reason.

    As to why? Because they've stated they want to create a game-wide economy and not a server-specific economy. Every single system they've implemented in the game supports this. Servers are literally meaningless in this game except as a way to divide players into teams for WvWvW. Everything else about your server is completely fluid and arbitrary. The trading post is global. There is only one of them.

    Inter-player trading outside the bounds of the Trading Post encourages smaller scale markets divorced from the trading post. You'd have different prices and supplies and such based on where you were and on what server. You'd also need to be "in the know" to know where to look for items being traded on this black market. If they wanted smaller scale markets confined to specific, the trading post wouldn't be global.

    You can mail items to people all you want to help others out and such, but the way it's set up you only want to do this with people you trust. I'm thinking this is by design to make the trading post the central clearing house for all transactions. This has alot of benefits and pretty much no downsides from a developer point of view. It gives you alot of information about and control over the in game economy.

    All you lose is trading in alternate currencies or cutting people better or worse deals for whatever reason. And there are plenty of people who wouldn't call those pressing concerns.

  • YougottawannaYougottawanna Registered User regular
    I was just selling my shit to vendors and never had a problem with money...

    I do agree that some of the tooltip and UI stuff could stand to be a bit more clear though. Maybe give us a quest that teaches us how to use the trading post?

  • MadpoetMadpoet Registered User regular
    Holy crap, this is like speed chess.
    Draygo wrote: »
    poet, often people get sidetracked on things like tone. Especially when you spend a lot of words argueing something that isnt terribly significant.

    No direct trading at this point - not significant
    overflow issues - significant but it has been addressed by anet directly as not WAI.

    When you use the following words:
    Now, no district switching? Explain to me the thought process that allows that to slip. Did someone decide that server cap divided by the number of zones in the game was sufficiently large, so they'd never have a long queue? Do they think their fans have no friends, and thus won't mind being unable to form a party that didn't originate in a given instance?
    what are you even trying to imply? That anet cant think?

    These comments you are making right there, is what the 'white knights' are jumping on. I see your concerns are completely valid but implying things like you did is something i strongly disapprove of because I have faith that Anet plans to address these well before release, and probably before next BWE. (the overflow thing especially).

    Now take the quote that was in response to:
    What's missing? Seriously, what's missing?
    Implying that the features I noted are ones that should not be in the game. This changes the conversation from how things are now to how they will be. So any derision is directed cleanly at the silly argument, not at Anet. Again, I have full confidence that they'll make a great game. But I don't want to talk it up and have my friends see it in last week's shape.

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Something from the official forums I found interesting:
    Jon Peters wrote:
    Hey all. I wanted to talk about this a bit since it is a hot topic here and also on the internets. The intention is that both styles are viable. Certainly right now Melee is more difficult than ranged. There are some things we will try to do to address this, but I think the more you play you would find they are closer than you think.

    First what’s already there:
    1) Melee does more damage. Melee damage is simply higher than ranged damage across the board.
    2) Melee has more control. With a few intentional exception Melee has a lot more control than ranged.

    What Melee needs:
    1) defensive tools on more weapons, particularly on lower armor professions.
    2) ai needs to favor Melee a bit less than it currently does.

    What else:
    Finally because of the more action based nature of combat Melee needs to be taught better. Effective Melee requires skills that translate over from FPS games which are notoriously harder on casual players. You have to wasd to move, constantly aim with your mouse camera, and hit skills on 1-5.

    Some tips:
    If you have learned any good Melee tips that you think we should pass on to newer players feel free to post them here. I’ll start with a few tips of my own.

    - If you don’t have mouse look on when using a skill you will turn to face. I sometimes let go of mouse look as I activate to help me aim through the chaos and then click it back down in between attacks.

    - Melee has a lot of hard hitting skills and good setup. Utility skills Can really help set up big Melee attacks. Bulls charge on warrior, scorpion wire on thief, judges intervention on guardian.

    - know when to run. No matter what you are not a tank. You have to move in and out avoiding damage. If you have to soak damage try and bring boons like Protection and Regeneration or conditions like Blindness and the very undervalued Weakness.

    Thanks for reading this all. Rest assured we will keep working on this and just keep in mind the subtle differences in GW2 combat that take a while to sink in.

    Jon

    Also
    Since there’s a lot of topics and discussions on this, I figured I’d make a post to let you guys know that we’re listening to your feedback on the matter, and there are valid points on both sides of the issue. In general, we’ve been fairly happy with the difficulty of the game in most places. However, we’re still in the process of working on PvE balance, so a lot of things will probably be adjusted and changed in the upcoming weeks. Here’s some of the areas we’re looking into updating:

    New-player experience: It often takes people a while to get used to GW2 combat and learn to avoid attacks and learn what their skills do and how they work. We’re looking at slowing down the rate in which we introduce different enemy mechanics so that new players have more of a chance to get accustomed to the game.
    Event scaling: We’re looking at ways to make the scaling on a lot of events work better for large amounts of players.
    Monster balance: Some enemies are significantly more difficult than others while others aren’t very threatening- we’re working on updating the balance for both of these categories so that there’s a more consistent difficulty level between various enemy types.
    Individual quest and event balance: Some events and personal story quests can be overly difficult, and we’re looking at identifying these places.

    Again, thanks a lot for all the feedback on this- we’re always trying to make the game a great experience, and feedback from you guys on what you’re enjoying and not enjoying helps us improve it.

    Dedwrekka on
  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Yes but you must understand, as I cannot read your mind, that I thought you were implying that anet was those things. And I think others reading your posts thought that too. That is often how arguements explode, one side is simply not understanding the other.

    I'm sure I know the answer to this question but:

    Regardless of the trade thing, if overflow issues are fixed in the next BWE you will recommend this game to your friends right?




    For me though the trading post didnt work at all during the beta most of the time. I hope they get it stable by next bwe from what they learned from this one.

    I think I only managed to buy a stack of one item from it. From 3 days of attempting at random times.

    Draygo on
  • MadpoetMadpoet Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The "just use a similar, but not functionally equivalent feature" argument does not change the fact that the feature is missing.

    It does change the fact that this feature being missing may be intended, not oversight.

    But what are you using to back that up such that you continue to repeat it as a statement of fact?

    I'm not repeating it as a statement of fact. I've continually said it was my feeling or my opinion. Even in what you quoted I used "may" for a reason.

    As to why? Because they've stated they want to create a game-wide economy and not a server-specific economy. Every single system they've implemented in the game supports this. Servers are literally meaningless in this game except as a way to divide players into teams for WvWvW. Everything else about your server is completely fluid and arbitrary. The trading post is global. There is only one of them.

    Inter-player trading outside the bounds of the Trading Post encourages smaller scale markets divorced from the trading post. You'd have different prices and supplies and such based on where you were and on what server. You'd also need to be "in the know" to know where to look for items being traded on this black market. If they wanted smaller scale markets confined to specific, the trading post wouldn't be global.

    You can mail items to people all you want to help others out and such, but the way it's set up you only want to do this with people you trust. I'm thinking this is by design to make the trading post the central clearing house for all transactions. This has alot of benefits and pretty much no downsides from a developer point of view. It gives you alot of information about and control over the in game economy.

    All you lose is trading in alternate currencies or cutting people better or worse deals for whatever reason. And there are plenty of people who wouldn't call those pressing concerns.

    Okay, this is what I was looking for all along. The trading post is superior because it forces all anonymous transactions through a single point, allowing greater developer control. Post that a page ago, and you don't have to go ad hominem on me. I see that point, but disagree that it is a compelling reason to eliminate direct trade. But, opinions are opinions, we'll see what direction anet takes it.

  • NyhtNyht Registered User regular
    Also, unless I'm mistaken, do you not get any XP for doing the Red VS Blue pvp matches? I mean I know it jumps you to 80 and all but it would be nice to be able to level that way for awhile if I wanted to change things up.

  • YougottawannaYougottawanna Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Something from the official forums I found interesting:
    Jon Peters wrote:
    Hey all. I wanted to talk about this a bit since it is a hot topic here and also on the internets. The intention is that both styles are viable. Certainly right now Melee is more difficult than ranged. There are some things we will try to do to address this, but I think the more you play you would find they are closer than you think.

    First what’s already there:
    1) Melee does more damage. Melee damage is simply higher than ranged damage across the board.
    2) Melee has more control. With a few intentional exception Melee has a lot more control than ranged.

    What Melee needs:
    1) defensive tools on more weapons, particularly on lower armor professions.
    2) ai needs to favor Melee a bit less than it currently does.

    What else:
    Finally because of the more action based nature of combat Melee needs to be taught better. Effective Melee requires skills that translate over from FPS games which are notoriously harder on casual players. You have to wasd to move, constantly aim with your mouse camera, and hit skills on 1-5.

    Some tips:
    If you have learned any good Melee tips that you think we should pass on to newer players feel free to post them here. I’ll start with a few tips of my own.

    - If you don’t have mouse look on when using a skill you will turn to face. I sometimes let go of mouse look as I activate to help me aim through the chaos and then click it back down in between attacks.

    - Melee has a lot of hard hitting skills and good setup. Utility skills Can really help set up big Melee attacks. Bulls charge on warrior, scorpion wire on thief, judges intervention on guardian.

    - know when to run. No matter what you are not a tank. You have to move in and out avoiding damage. If you have to soak damage try and bring boons like Protection and Regeneration or conditions like Blindness and the very undervalued Weakness.

    Thanks for reading this all. Rest assured we will keep working on this and just keep in mind the subtle differences in GW2 combat that take a while to sink in.

    Jon

    Speaking as a rogue who likes sword/pistol this is just the sort of thing I wanted to hear. I didn't know that melee skills turn you automatically, and I wouldn't have considering that so far I've just been holding down RMB almost all the time to control the camera.

    edit: I should add that I wish I knew specifically what he meant by melee having "more control."

    Yougottawanna on
  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    You dont. No loot no nothing. If you want to level via pvp go into wuvwuv.

    I perfer it this way actually, I mean while you pvp you dont have any real use for loot, or levels. And if there is leveling there must be loot, and the last thing you want is people on your team wasting time going after players instead of objectives for loot.

    Competative PvP is about a level playing field, where the only objective is winning the game.

    Draygo on
  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    When Anet devs say control they mean CC.

    Basically more cripple, more root, more stun, more knockdown, more pull, more punt.

    Draygo on
  • MadpoetMadpoet Registered User regular
    Draygo wrote: »
    Yes but you must understand, as I cannot read your mind, that I thought you were implying that anet was those things. And I think others reading your posts thought that too. That is often how arguements explode, one side is simply not understanding the other.

    I'm sure I know the answer to this question but:

    Regardless of the trade thing, if overflow issues are fixed in the next BWE you will recommend this game to your friends right?




    For me though the trading post didnt work at all during the beta most of the time. I hope they get it stable by next bwe from what they learned from this one.

    I think I only managed to buy a stack of one item from it. From 3 days of attempting at random times.

    Well, my mind was on prominent display at the beginning of the quote tree....
    Yeah, the inability to group with friends is the main reason I wouldn't want to recommend it. "Hey, come check out this game... but we can't play together unless we luck into the same zone, or wait at least an hour to get in the 'real' zone". It was a bad first impression for my girl, who ONLY plays games to play with me. I'd rather avoid it for friends. Because I do want them to play the game.

    Ignoring the lack of /trade, the trading post looked promising, but the beta lack of an economy (and apparently it not working) made it useless for finding anything I needed the few times I looked. I think if there's a longer beta, or when characters last from weekend to weekend that it'll get some use.

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Draygo wrote: »
    You dont. No loot no nothing. If you want to level via pvp go into wuvwuv.

    I perfer it this way actually, I mean while you pvp you dont have any real use for loot, or levels. And if there is leveling there must be loot, and the last thing you want is people on your team wasting time going after players instead of objectives for loot.

    Competative PvP is about a level playing field, where the only objective is winning the game.

    As many of us experienced in Beta, Wuvwuv fills up hella fast. When there's more people per server than there was in beta, it'll be even worse.
    So, yeah. Borderlands and Red on blue fighting is the best most of us will be able to eek out may times, especially during prime time.

  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    Getting upset about how the overflow system works seems a bit silly considering this was their first major test for it.

  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    Doesnt matter if you were calm at the start, just gotta stay calm throughout.

    yeah it took me a while to figure a good workaround for the friend issue, but by day 3 we pretty much had it figured out.

    If you went to the zone you wanted to go to, then jumped to the mists, you could spam the return to the world button. Which only puts you in the 'real' district so it will warp you once someone leaves that districts.

    The queues wernt working at all and this worked as a 1-3 minute work around to get into the zone with my friends.

    I wish I found that out on day 1 though, and I know a lot of people didnt figure out that 'trick' at all.

    had stupid amounts of fun though. Anet pinky promised to fix overflow so, benifit of the doubt here (for now).

This discussion has been closed.