I'm assuming the council is all benders, if only because it would really take the wind out of the sails of the major antagonists if their claim of "non-benders are trodden on!" can be met with a reply of "well actually the city's ruling council has a few non-benders in it"
it is a far less interesting conflict if Amon is full of shit and isn't just taking a reasonable point too far
how so
because one is a conflict that is nuanced and complex
and one is a conflict that is black and white but has a villain pretending like it isn't
how did you feel about the conflict in the last series
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SwissLionWe are beside ourselves!Registered Userregular
edited May 2012
Smug-chin definitely addressed the "Us Benders" at the other members of the council, and they're all in traditional Four nation garb, except for the classy suit he's in.
It's a very clear implication, and Sato is definitely the exception rather than the standard.
in other shocking revelations, the character Sokka of the previous Avatar series often threw his boomerang with the understanding that it would return to him
Smug-chin definitely addressed the "Us Benders" at the other members of the council, and they're all in traditional Four nation garb, except for the classy suit he's in.
It's a very clear implication, and Sato is definitely the exception rather than the standard.
Quit bein' Dumb.
traditional nation garb does not mean or even imply that they're benders
the line "Amon is not going to stop at the bending triads. Eventually he will come for all us benders, our friends, our families." can quite easily be interpreted to mean "benders in general that are not criminals, such as myself" rather than "everybody in this room, because we're all benders" and that's how I heard it the first time
it is a far less interesting conflict if Amon is full of shit and isn't just taking a reasonable point too far
how so
because one is a conflict that is nuanced and complex
and one is a conflict that is black and white but has a villain pretending like it isn't
how did you feel about the conflict in the last series
like they did a black-and-white conflict so well that there's no sense retreading that ground
fair enough
they're clearly trying to go for a villain more nuanced than Ozai, but I wouldn't be disappointed at all if it turns out, no, he is in fact a jerkbender
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SwissLionWe are beside ourselves!Registered Userregular
Smug-chin definitely addressed the "Us Benders" at the other members of the council, and they're all in traditional Four nation garb, except for the classy suit he's in.
It's a very clear implication, and Sato is definitely the exception rather than the standard.
Quit bein' Dumb.
traditional nation garb does not mean or even imply that they're benders
the line "Amon is not going to stop at the bending triads. Eventually he will come for all us benders, our friends, our families." can quite easily be interpreted to mean "benders in general that are not criminals, such as myself" rather than "everybody in this room, because we're all benders" and that's how I heard it the first time
Having just rewatched it, when those lines are spoken the camera cuts to a shot of the council members looking worriedly at one another. It is not really a hard subtext to pick up on. He is using their personal fear as benders to get his way. The argument "They're going to take our kids' bending away" isn't going to work on people who have perfectly functional non-bending families.
My point with the traditional garb is that as benders you have much more reason to identify with and represent a particular nation.
When it comes down to it there is probably not so much meaningful difference between one non-bending citizen of republic city and another anymore.
As for the first series there was a lot of nuance in how the people of the Earth and Fire nations are depicted. Apart from like Ozai and Azula and I suppose Zhao, you have all the gang's journeys through the fire nation meeting lots of people with many different perspectives.
And when they're in the Earth kingdom you run into issues with the corrupt soldiers, the crazy misguided General, the Dai Li and their police state taking advantage of the insularity and isolation caused by the war.
The discontented masses having huge holes in their complaints would prevent any kind of low-level interesting elements like that from developing. There are much more effective and interesting ways of showing that the bad guy is wrong in what he's doing it than making his arguments objectively and very obviously bullshit. It serves no purpose and I just don't see why you have any reason for arguing it might be the case?
My guess is that Amon will get to her some time soonish (maybe at the end of this season?) and take away her ability to bend. Then she'll probably go into shock and visit the spirit world by accident. Aang will help her find her bending again and she'll probably have to relearn a lot of things, but when she comes back, she'll be better than ever. AND, probably with some kind of deep dark secret about Amon provided courtesy of the spirit world.
That would probably be the spiritual training her teachers have been trying to hammer into her thick skull.
looking worriedly at each other means they're worried about a large number of their city's population being attacked, because as far as we know the Council are not jerks who just think about themselves
it has never been shown that benders and non-benders have any more or less national pride than each other. Republic City is a nation unto itself, the Council representatives wear national colors because they're chosen from each nation. that's all it means.
my point is that Jerkbending has never been exclusive to or even significantly preferred by benders or non-benders. I completely agree with your point about nuance, that's what I'm saying. The Equalists are trying to make people forget about that nuance. Amon is creating a false barrier between benders and non-benders that we never saw in the first series, or have really seen in Korra either. Unless it's a situation involving the Equalists, benders and non-benders seem to generally get along fine.
I thought that the fact there were 5 people on council was because it was one from each nation/element/bending type and the 5th being a nonebending Representative. Though, looking back on it, it could just be two Water tribe people since there is a north and south tribe for them, who knows.
When has a person of high political status ever NOT been afraid for their own life/safety? Its not uncommon for politicians to pass bills or make decisions based on their own fears or ideas. Yes, they're supposed to be representatives of a particular group of peoples that were elected to their office by said people, but everyone has different ideas on how things should be done. What Amon probably doesn't realize is that with our without Jerkbending, there will ALWAYS be JERKS. Jerkbenders simply don't have to carry around a rifle or a knife in order to bully others or start gang wars. We realize that because we live in a world that never had bending in the first place. Zolt will probably find SOME way to continue to bully non-bending citizens even without bending. That's just how it is with power-hungry individuals. If you take away a gangster's gun, he'll probably go out and find another.
The bigger question would be...WHY are there SO many gangs in Republic City? After only (I'm assuming) 80-ish years, why did gangs pop up so quickly and why are they so numerous? And they're going after technically small game. The real money lies in illegal stuff, not pushing around penniless non-bending shopkeepers. If the police have such a handle on things, why is crime SO rampant in Republic City?
North and South tribe are literally on the opposite ends of the world. Though they share a cultural heritage, they're effectively separate nations.
Yeah, that is definitely the likely make up of the Council but when I was first watching it my original thought was the 5th was a non-bender. But, yes, definitely one for each North and South water tribes. Regardless everyone in that room is a bender or not.
Though I will say it is probably more likely that a nation would choice a bender as their nations Representative for the tradition of it, but that has certainly not been confirmed. (Except Tenzin [Who, I won't say was really chosen] and Tarlok, of course)
"wouldn't it be better if everyone were the same" is a dangerous line of thinking
diversity rules
this is coming from a bona fide spacist
Diversity is indeed rad. But in the context that it doesn't cause one group of people to have an innate social advantage over another. When one group consistantly is determining the direction of a society, based soley on their physical attributes, that becomes a problem the society needs to address.
It's not like bending makes someone wiser, or more intelligent, or more capable of making decisions than non benders.
The problem is when the powerful group goes from saying that what they do makes them special, to saying that what they can do makes them better. Because then you get those same people considering anyone without the abilities to be inferior. and they have the power to back up their beliefs.
I'd even say that the problem in Republic City might be just a more extreme example of bender and non bender relations throughout the world as a whole. Even the fact that the nations themselves are named for the elements doesn't help. Sure a non bender can achieve success (though does it happen as much as benders who achieve success?), but when the nation itself is named for the element that unique individuals in the society use, it would be pretty hard to have the focus of those societies be anything less than on the benders.
Amon may be a dick and the revolution may be going about it the wrong way, but the non benders are looking for something or someone to fill a need that's already there. It just so happens that the one they got is probably using the movement for their own ends and may be a bender themselves.
thing is no bender is actually saying benders are superior. they aren't just born wielding fireballs, it's an art that has to be learned
we have not seen any particular imbalance between benders and non-benders, Amon is creating an artificial conflict
2/3 of the extant nations in the first series were led by non-benders. There were tons of non-bending characters on equal footing with other benders. The entire Southern Tribe including Sokka with the sole exception of Katara, Northern Chief, Earth King, Yu Yan Archers, Kyoshi Warriors including Suki, Ty Lee, Mai, Li and Lo, Zuko's mom, Piandao, Jet and his gang, Toph's parents, June, Mechanist and his followers, etc. etc.
thing is no bender is actually saying benders are superior. they aren't just born wielding fireballs, it's an art that has to be learned
we have not seen any particular imbalance between benders and non-benders, Amon is creating an artificial conflict
2/3 of the extant nations in the first series were led by non-benders. There were tons of non-bending characters on equal footing with other benders. The entire Southern Tribe including Sokka with the sole exception of Katara, Northern Chief, Earth King, Yu Yan Archers, Kyoshi Warriors including Suki, Ty Lee, Mai, Li and Lo, Zuko's mom, Piandao, Jet and his gang, Toph's parents, June, Mechanist and his followers, etc. etc.
Privilege.
Just because there are some non-benders in the Nobility does not necessarily mean that Benders do not have a leg up on non-benders.
thing is no bender is actually saying benders are superior. they aren't just born wielding fireballs, it's an art that has to be learned
we have not seen any particular imbalance between benders and non-benders, Amon is creating an artificial conflict
2/3 of the extant nations in the first series were led by non-benders. There were tons of non-bending characters on equal footing with other benders. The entire Southern Tribe including Sokka with the sole exception of Katara, Northern Chief, Earth King, Yu Yan Archers, Kyoshi Warriors including Suki, Ty Lee, Mai, Li and Lo, Zuko's mom, Piandao, Jet and his gang, Toph's parents, June, Mechanist and his followers, etc. etc.
Privilege.
Just because there are some non-benders in the Nobility does not necessarily mean that Benders do not have a leg up on non-benders.
Regardless of Who sits on the Throne authority has always been linked to the power of elemental bending.
In the earth kingdom none of the 5 generals or court officials were benders (or at least they didn't seem to be), but the ruling power was the Dai Li.
Among the water tribes, in the northern watertribe the benders were the reason they lived in Ice Palaces and not Ice Huts.
In the fire nation the leaders were among the strongest fire benders ever.
Among the air nomads bending was standard, but all of the members of the council had airbending arrows (and that means they were airbending masters and had, among other things, invented a new airbending technique).
Fiendishrabbit on
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
thing is no bender is actually saying benders are superior. they aren't just born wielding fireballs, it's an art that has to be learned
we have not seen any particular imbalance between benders and non-benders, Amon is creating an artificial conflict
2/3 of the extant nations in the first series were led by non-benders. There were tons of non-bending characters on equal footing with other benders. The entire Southern Tribe including Sokka with the sole exception of Katara, Northern Chief, Earth King, Yu Yan Archers, Kyoshi Warriors including Suki, Ty Lee, Mai, Li and Lo, Zuko's mom, Piandao, Jet and his gang, Toph's parents, June, Mechanist and his followers, etc. etc.
Privilege.
Just because there are some non-benders in the Nobility does not necessarily mean that Benders do not have a leg up on non-benders.
okay, where is the evidence of this
Mostly its inference, honestly.
It seems very clear that being a Fire-bender is/was a requirement to be Firelord.
The Avatar by virtue of being the Benderiest bender is given a huge amount of power basically from birth.
Triads. Both the name and what we've seen of them. The triads are made of teams of Benders. As far as we can see there might not be non-bender organized crime at all.
Jobs. No matter how you slice it benders have a leg up on jobs. they can do all the jobs normals can do plus jobs for benders.
Most of all though, Amon is building an army. You can't pray on fears that don't exist. If Benders don't really hold as much power as he claims the polulous still thinks they do.
Regardless of Who sits on the Throne authority has always been linked to the power of elemental bending.
In the earth kingdom none of the 5 generals or court officials were benders (or at least they didn't seem to be), but the ruling power was the Dai Li.
Among the water tribes the northern watertribe the benders were the reason they lived in Ice Palaces and not Ice Huts.
In the fire nation the leaders were among the strongest fire benders ever.
Among the air nomads bending was standard, but all of the members of the council had airbending arrows (and that means they were airbending masters and had, among other things, invented a new airbending technique).
Yes, bending is an important part of every culture in the world. That does not mean benders are oppressing non-benders.
thing is no bender is actually saying benders are superior. they aren't just born wielding fireballs, it's an art that has to be learned
we have not seen any particular imbalance between benders and non-benders, Amon is creating an artificial conflict
2/3 of the extant nations in the first series were led by non-benders. There were tons of non-bending characters on equal footing with other benders. The entire Southern Tribe including Sokka with the sole exception of Katara, Northern Chief, Earth King, Yu Yan Archers, Kyoshi Warriors including Suki, Ty Lee, Mai, Li and Lo, Zuko's mom, Piandao, Jet and his gang, Toph's parents, June, Mechanist and his followers, etc. etc.
Privilege.
Just because there are some non-benders in the Nobility does not necessarily mean that Benders do not have a leg up on non-benders.
okay, where is the evidence of this
Mostly its inference, honestly.
It seems very clear that being a Fire-bender is/was a requirement to be Firelord.
The Avatar by virtue of being the Benderiest bender is given a huge amount of power basically from birth.
Triads. Both the name and what we've seen of them. The triads are made of teams of Benders. As far as we can see there might not be non-bender organized crime at all.
Jobs. No matter how you slice it benders have a leg up on jobs. they can do all the jobs normals can do plus jobs for benders.
Most of all though, Amon is building an army. You can't pray on fears that don't exist. If Benders don't really hold as much power as he claims the polulous still thinks they do.
There has been no indication that firebending is a requirement for Fire Lord.
The avatar is, beyond being a powerful bender, the spirit of the planet incarnate and the bridge between the human world and the spirit world.
I would be shocked if there was no non-bender crime. You know, like the Equalists.
Yes, benders have a leg up because they get to do shitty jobs like redirecting electricity for a company that's owned by a non-bender.
Amon is building an army because he's charismatic. Some non-benders buy into his crap, but they do not represent the majority. You admit most of this perceived imbalance is based on inference, while the show has not actually shown such an imbalance and has in fact given many examples to the contrary. Amon's conflict is artificial and he really smells like dog buns.
It has been heavily implied that being a great Firebender is a requirement to be Firelord. Or at least was.
Considering that before it was made hereditary the position of Firelord was the leader of a spiritual order of firebenders. Yeah. Pretty heavily implied.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
The Fire Nation is a monarchy. Power is inherited with firstborn sons taking priority. Since bending is partially genetic, that means a lot of the Royal Family will be benders. Nothing says bending is a requirement for the throne. Hell, we don't even know if Lu Ten was a bender or not.
Yeah, actually. The avatar is highly respected, and not just cause she can shoot rocks and fireballs.
What are the Equalists if not a glorified chi-blocking gang?
We have seen no economic imbalance between benders and non-benders. We've seen plenty of rich non-benders and poor benders, and the other way around. We have seen high-ranking military non-benders. Everybody seemed to have worked this stuff out until Amon decided there was a problem.
yeah when they get into all the stuff about Sozin and the Fire Sages
used to be the Firelord was just the head of the Fire Sages and the Fire Nation was basically a theocracy
Sozin's lineage changed that into a hereditary monarchy
Speaking of Monarchies in Avatar
I did some reading about the Earth Kingdom, and learned that the Dai Li were actually made in response to a peasant uprising, centuries ago, during Kiyoshi's time. Apparently the people were so unhappy with their king that Chin was able to amass a rebel army, which led to the creation of Kiyoshi island and all that.
But afterwards, there was still a lot of problems inland. Kiyoshi had to put down a peasant uprising, but only after chewing him out (In one form or another) when he tried to arrest her for not automatically obeying him. She agreed to help keep him safe, but only as long as he straightened up and started leading his people properly.
She held up her end of the bargain by training the original Dai Li, who were tasked with protecting the King's interests, and supposedly to protect Ba Sing Se's cultural heritage.
Posts
Earth King and both Water Tribe chiefs were non-benders
it's almost like Amon is full of shit
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Remove terrorists from that because that's an incredibly subjective term~
how so
because one is a conflict that is nuanced and complex
and one is a conflict that is black and white but has a villain pretending like it isn't
http://www.audioentropy.com/
how did you feel about the conflict in the last series
It's a very clear implication, and Sato is definitely the exception rather than the standard.
Quit bein' Dumb.
like they did a black-and-white conflict so well that there's no sense retreading that ground
http://www.audioentropy.com/
BULLSHIT
traditional nation garb does not mean or even imply that they're benders
the line "Amon is not going to stop at the bending triads. Eventually he will come for all us benders, our friends, our families." can quite easily be interpreted to mean "benders in general that are not criminals, such as myself" rather than "everybody in this room, because we're all benders" and that's how I heard it the first time
fair enough
they're clearly trying to go for a villain more nuanced than Ozai, but I wouldn't be disappointed at all if it turns out, no, he is in fact a jerkbender
Having just rewatched it, when those lines are spoken the camera cuts to a shot of the council members looking worriedly at one another. It is not really a hard subtext to pick up on. He is using their personal fear as benders to get his way. The argument "They're going to take our kids' bending away" isn't going to work on people who have perfectly functional non-bending families.
My point with the traditional garb is that as benders you have much more reason to identify with and represent a particular nation.
When it comes down to it there is probably not so much meaningful difference between one non-bending citizen of republic city and another anymore.
As for the first series there was a lot of nuance in how the people of the Earth and Fire nations are depicted. Apart from like Ozai and Azula and I suppose Zhao, you have all the gang's journeys through the fire nation meeting lots of people with many different perspectives.
And when they're in the Earth kingdom you run into issues with the corrupt soldiers, the crazy misguided General, the Dai Li and their police state taking advantage of the insularity and isolation caused by the war.
The discontented masses having huge holes in their complaints would prevent any kind of low-level interesting elements like that from developing. There are much more effective and interesting ways of showing that the bad guy is wrong in what he's doing it than making his arguments objectively and very obviously bullshit. It serves no purpose and I just don't see why you have any reason for arguing it might be the case?
Korra still has a lot to learn before she's ready to save anyone
oh my god oh my god oh my god
please does someone have a gif of Tenzin going all 'What?' when his wife is lookin all angry at him
hey satan...: thinkgeek amazon My post |
That would probably be the spiritual training her teachers have been trying to hammer into her thick skull.
it has never been shown that benders and non-benders have any more or less national pride than each other. Republic City is a nation unto itself, the Council representatives wear national colors because they're chosen from each nation. that's all it means.
my point is that Jerkbending has never been exclusive to or even significantly preferred by benders or non-benders. I completely agree with your point about nuance, that's what I'm saying. The Equalists are trying to make people forget about that nuance. Amon is creating a false barrier between benders and non-benders that we never saw in the first series, or have really seen in Korra either. Unless it's a situation involving the Equalists, benders and non-benders seem to generally get along fine.
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yeah tarrlok explicitly states he is the representative of the Northern water tribe
The bigger question would be...WHY are there SO many gangs in Republic City? After only (I'm assuming) 80-ish years, why did gangs pop up so quickly and why are they so numerous? And they're going after technically small game. The real money lies in illegal stuff, not pushing around penniless non-bending shopkeepers. If the police have such a handle on things, why is crime SO rampant in Republic City?
Yeah, that is definitely the likely make up of the Council but when I was first watching it my original thought was the 5th was a non-bender. But, yes, definitely one for each North and South water tribes. Regardless everyone in that room is a bender or not.
Though I will say it is probably more likely that a nation would choice a bender as their nations Representative for the tradition of it, but that has certainly not been confirmed. (Except Tenzin [Who, I won't say was really chosen] and Tarlok, of course)
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Diversity is indeed rad. But in the context that it doesn't cause one group of people to have an innate social advantage over another. When one group consistantly is determining the direction of a society, based soley on their physical attributes, that becomes a problem the society needs to address.
It's not like bending makes someone wiser, or more intelligent, or more capable of making decisions than non benders.
The problem is when the powerful group goes from saying that what they do makes them special, to saying that what they can do makes them better. Because then you get those same people considering anyone without the abilities to be inferior. and they have the power to back up their beliefs.
I'd even say that the problem in Republic City might be just a more extreme example of bender and non bender relations throughout the world as a whole. Even the fact that the nations themselves are named for the elements doesn't help. Sure a non bender can achieve success (though does it happen as much as benders who achieve success?), but when the nation itself is named for the element that unique individuals in the society use, it would be pretty hard to have the focus of those societies be anything less than on the benders.
Amon may be a dick and the revolution may be going about it the wrong way, but the non benders are looking for something or someone to fill a need that's already there. It just so happens that the one they got is probably using the movement for their own ends and may be a bender themselves.
What is mere money compared to the power of the force...er bending.
Yeah but the Earth King was a pawn.
The Dai Li was really in charge. You know, the badass earthbenders.
Since, in her mind at least, she has no identity beyond being a bender.
we have not seen any particular imbalance between benders and non-benders, Amon is creating an artificial conflict
2/3 of the extant nations in the first series were led by non-benders. There were tons of non-bending characters on equal footing with other benders. The entire Southern Tribe including Sokka with the sole exception of Katara, Northern Chief, Earth King, Yu Yan Archers, Kyoshi Warriors including Suki, Ty Lee, Mai, Li and Lo, Zuko's mom, Piandao, Jet and his gang, Toph's parents, June, Mechanist and his followers, etc. etc.
Privilege.
Just because there are some non-benders in the Nobility does not necessarily mean that Benders do not have a leg up on non-benders.
okay, where is the evidence of this
In the earth kingdom none of the 5 generals or court officials were benders (or at least they didn't seem to be), but the ruling power was the Dai Li.
Among the water tribes, in the northern watertribe the benders were the reason they lived in Ice Palaces and not Ice Huts.
In the fire nation the leaders were among the strongest fire benders ever.
Among the air nomads bending was standard, but all of the members of the council had airbending arrows (and that means they were airbending masters and had, among other things, invented a new airbending technique).
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Mostly its inference, honestly.
It seems very clear that being a Fire-bender is/was a requirement to be Firelord.
The Avatar by virtue of being the Benderiest bender is given a huge amount of power basically from birth.
Triads. Both the name and what we've seen of them. The triads are made of teams of Benders. As far as we can see there might not be non-bender organized crime at all.
Jobs. No matter how you slice it benders have a leg up on jobs. they can do all the jobs normals can do plus jobs for benders.
Most of all though, Amon is building an army. You can't pray on fears that don't exist. If Benders don't really hold as much power as he claims the polulous still thinks they do.
Yes, bending is an important part of every culture in the world. That does not mean benders are oppressing non-benders.
There has been no indication that firebending is a requirement for Fire Lord.
The avatar is, beyond being a powerful bender, the spirit of the planet incarnate and the bridge between the human world and the spirit world.
I would be shocked if there was no non-bender crime. You know, like the Equalists.
Yes, benders have a leg up because they get to do shitty jobs like redirecting electricity for a company that's owned by a non-bender.
Amon is building an army because he's charismatic. Some non-benders buy into his crap, but they do not represent the majority. You admit most of this perceived imbalance is based on inference, while the show has not actually shown such an imbalance and has in fact given many examples to the contrary. Amon's conflict is artificial and he really smells like dog buns.
Do you really think the average citizen knows/cares?
Gangs. I meant Gangs.
As well as as builders and craftsmen , Probenders, various special Military positions.
Considering that before it was made hereditary the position of Firelord was the leader of a spiritual order of firebenders. Yeah. Pretty heavily implied.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Was it mentioned in the show?
yeah when they get into all the stuff about Sozin and the Fire Sages
used to be the Firelord was just the head of the Fire Sages and the Fire Nation was basically a theocracy
Sozin's lineage changed that into a hereditary monarchy
Yeah, actually. The avatar is highly respected, and not just cause she can shoot rocks and fireballs.
What are the Equalists if not a glorified chi-blocking gang?
We have seen no economic imbalance between benders and non-benders. We've seen plenty of rich non-benders and poor benders, and the other way around. We have seen high-ranking military non-benders. Everybody seemed to have worked this stuff out until Amon decided there was a problem.
Speaking of Monarchies in Avatar
I did some reading about the Earth Kingdom, and learned that the Dai Li were actually made in response to a peasant uprising, centuries ago, during Kiyoshi's time. Apparently the people were so unhappy with their king that Chin was able to amass a rebel army, which led to the creation of Kiyoshi island and all that.
But afterwards, there was still a lot of problems inland. Kiyoshi had to put down a peasant uprising, but only after chewing him out (In one form or another) when he tried to arrest her for not automatically obeying him. She agreed to help keep him safe, but only as long as he straightened up and started leading his people properly.
She held up her end of the bargain by training the original Dai Li, who were tasked with protecting the King's interests, and supposedly to protect Ba Sing Se's cultural heritage.
Sad irony how that turned out in Aang's time.