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[HBO] Game of Thrones S2 on Sunday; spoilers abound, no tags; NO BOOKS

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Posts

  • CarpyCarpy Registered User regular
    Egos wrote: »
    Carpy wrote: »
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, it would be an interesting plot twist but I haven't seen any evidence for it all

    I mean she nags him constantly

    Could be a very convincing disguise, or she could be a gold-digger who hopes to be his mistress and ride that gold train all the way to Casterly Rock. The story doesn't need a "Oops! She kills people with her thighs" twist to get across the point that Tyrion has a serious weakness in the realms of women and sex.

    Yes and there's just as much evidence that she's a witch

    It would be to be some pretty ridiculous contrivance for her to be a plant by anyone, given that Bronn picked her seemingly at random from the various camp followers
    This, very much this. She's been on the show for almost a full season and the only thing she has had to do is sleep with the same person, who treats her well and pays her a lot of money. Given the world she lives in and her profession I don't see how life could get any better for her.

    The idea that someone is slow playing Tyrion with her for this entire time is far crazier than the coincidence of Arya becoming Tywin's cup bearer.

    hmm how far off would it be for Tyrion to use her as an assassin?

    I still think your reading to much into it. For a year now all we have seen is her enjoyment of sex and money, one of which is possibly faked. For her character to suddenly develop into something outside of that would be terrible writing. If your worried about her betraying Tyrion it would have to be for money and in a way that doesn't have her acting outside her fairly well established character. And since we've spent so long with her and not seen anything to indicate that shes working for someone else I would be terribly disappointed if something like that came out of left field. That's a situation they would have to suggest to us before they could do much with it.

  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    So I bit the bullet, kept up with the Joneses, and watched the entirety of Season One yesterday. I'm actually two episodes into Season Two.


    Overall, my initial misgivings about the show have not been completely assuaged. The show, in my view, definitely suffers from both having too many characters and too few engaging characters, as even after an entire season the only characters I really ever gave a shit about are still limited to just Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister (and I'm losing patience with Jon). What's more, it isn't that the other characters aren't well-developed and I'm just failing to get on board with them, it's that I actively hate almost everyone else on the show. Never have I seen a program so filled to the gills with such horrible/petty/stupid characters.

    It's like watching a chess match in slow motion, but with a thousand pieces, and all the pieces are insufferable pieces of shit, and you don't even really care who wins. I haven't read the books, but at this point I'm kind of rooting for Daenarys' dragons to just grow huge and murder everyone, Dothraki, Starks, Baratheons, Lannisters, septs and all.


    Still, in the win column, the set design looks fantastic, and (almost) everyone is acting their balls off. I'll probably finish Season Two out, but I don't know that I'll follow into Season Three if the show remains as unfocused as it has to this point, without presenting a engaging protagonist with a sense of agency.

  • DomhnallDomhnall Minty D. Vision! ScotlandRegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    re-edit in!:

    Tyrion isn't a protagonist with a sense of agency?

    Domhnall on
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  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    A friend once told me its a commpn mistake to think of game of thrones as a fantasy series. It is, more or less, a historical record with 100% accuracy.

    Competley changed the way i viewed the series so far, and it makes SO MUCH MORE SENSE from a character standpoint.

    Its humans, and all our ugliness, in a fantasy setting.

  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    Ross, I'm glad you are giving the show a second chance. I just have one question: how can you hate Arya?

    In any case, if you are looking for a single protagonist to follow there isn't going to be one. I think there are several major characters with a sense of agency, however, but I can't really go into details without talking about stuff that doesn't exist in this thread. I will say that the show is juggling a lot of balls and has a hard time giving focus to individuals in any given episode.

  • NeliNeli Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I am glad I don't have the same sort of taste as you :)

    Just watched the latest episode... I find that they go by far too quickly. As they end I always immediately want more :(

    Neli on
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    I have stared into Satan's asshole, and it fucking winked at me.
    [/size]
  • MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    Heisenberg wrote: »
    The argument is dumb because Joffrey and the Lannisters started the war, not Robb. The nurse was an idiot. They didn't just kill Robb's dad, they killed his men, crippled his son, and directly insulted the north. Not wiping the floor with them after that would have been cowardice of the highest order.

    Some terrorists killed only a couple thousand people back in September of 2011, and we started two wars over it, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

    Maybe we aren't really all that different?

  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Plus I'm not sure the average northerner's every day life will change at all even if Rob does become king of an independent north. The healer chick was right in that the common people are sacrificing so much and gaining little in conflicts they really have no real stake in.

    815165 on
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Tyrion isn't a protagonist with a sense of agency?

    Not really. He's more reactionary. He's reluctantly reactionary, and tends to loathe anyone who tries to influence him, and he's certainly my favorite character in the show right now, but he's not really a character of free will or even one with a clear motivation. Though, the latter issue of which I'm not overly concerned about, as it's somewhat refreshing on this show to have a character who really just isn't bothered to be involved in the politics and abstains from joining the fray as much as possible.

    It's true what Queen Cercie says about playing the game of thrones, "either you win or you die." It's just strange to me that so many characters are invested in even playing at all. No one is fighting to make anything better, they're just fighting for meaningless titles and boons and childish notions of "honor," even the so-called good guys.

  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    Tomanta wrote: »
    Ross, I'm glad you are giving the show a second chance. I just have one question: how can you hate Arya?

    In any case, if you are looking for a single protagonist to follow there isn't going to be one. I think there are several major characters with a sense of agency, however, but I can't really go into details without talking about stuff that doesn't exist in this thread. I will say that the show is juggling a lot of balls and has a hard time giving focus to individuals in any given episode.

    That's the little Stark girl, right? I like her. She's nice enough. But I don't really have an interest in her story, though. She's a very young child, and any likely storyline on her part is either likely to be dalliance or empowering to a point past credulity.

    But I like her well enough. I just don't need to see a lot of focus placed upon her.

  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    I didn't say I need a single main character, I just need someone who is a decent person with an honorable agenda. Robb Stark is the closest to meeting that ideal, but even his war and defection from the Seven Kingdoms are based around selfish desires and petty notions of familial honor.


    Literally, this show is the biggest parade of assholes I've ever seen.

  • RhalloTonnyRhalloTonny Of the BrownlandsRegistered User regular
    Literally, this show is the biggest parade of assholes I've ever seen.

    While I know what you mean,

    Welcome to Westeros

    !
  • AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    I'd enjoy some Shae/Sansa scenes, though should have a fun dynamic.

    But Sansa's actress is only 16!
    :P

    legal in Germany: The Alabama of Europe!

    16 is the age of consent in almost 60% of US states too, some even younger like Kentucky (15), and South Carolina (14).

  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    I didn't say I need a single main character, I just need someone who is a decent person with an honorable agenda.

    Err, Jon Snow? Lord-Commander Mormont? Jorah Mormont? Maester Lewin? Tyrion's pretty freaking close to that line, too - he's trying to reign in Joffrey and protect his family. He's tricksy, but I can't think of anything he's done that's dishonorable.

  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Tomanta wrote: »
    Ross, I'm glad you are giving the show a second chance. I just have one question: how can you hate Arya?

    In any case, if you are looking for a single protagonist to follow there isn't going to be one. I think there are several major characters with a sense of agency, however, but I can't really go into details without talking about stuff that doesn't exist in this thread. I will say that the show is juggling a lot of balls and has a hard time giving focus to individuals in any given episode.

    That's the little Stark girl, right? I like her. She's nice enough. But I don't really have an interest in her story, though. She's a very young child, and any likely storyline on her part is either likely to be dalliance or empowering to a point past credulity.

    But I like her well enough. I just don't need to see a lot of focus placed upon her.

    A man has certainly taken an interest in her. A man might have significant influence on future events.

  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    I didn't say I need a single main character, I just need someone who is a decent person with an honorable agenda. Robb Stark is the closest to meeting that ideal, but even his war and defection from the Seven Kingdoms are based around selfish desires and petty notions of familial honor.


    Literally, this show is the biggest parade of assholes I've ever seen.

    What did Robb ever do? The Lannisters murdered his dad and the king is illegitimate. The Northerners are asserting their independence.

    valiance on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    I didn't say I need a single main character, I just need someone who is a decent person with an honorable agenda. Robb Stark is the closest to meeting that ideal, but even his war and defection from the Seven Kingdoms are based around selfish desires and petty notions of familial honor.


    Literally, this show is the biggest parade of assholes I've ever seen.
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Tyrion isn't a protagonist with a sense of agency?

    Not really. He's more reactionary. He's reluctantly reactionary, and tends to loathe anyone who tries to influence him, and he's certainly my favorite character in the show right now, but he's not really a character of free will or even one with a clear motivation. Though, the latter issue of which I'm not overly concerned about, as it's somewhat refreshing on this show to have a character who really just isn't bothered to be involved in the politics and abstains from joining the fray as much as possible.

    It's true what Queen Cercie says about playing the game of thrones, "either you win or you die." It's just strange to me that so many characters are invested in even playing at all. No one is fighting to make anything better, they're just fighting for meaningless titles and boons and childish notions of "honor," even the so-called good guys.

    It would seem your main issue is you don't like the motivations of medieval nobles. That's gonna be an issue in a series about them.

  • Mike DangerMike Danger "Diane..." a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered User regular
    I am loving reading all the speculation in here. I can't fucking wait to come in here at the season 3 finale.

    Steam: Mike Danger | PSN/NNID: remadeking | 3DS: 2079-9204-4075
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  • Theodore FlooseveltTheodore Floosevelt proud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelo dorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered User regular
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Tyrion isn't a protagonist with a sense of agency?

    Not really. He's more reactionary. He's reluctantly reactionary, and tends to loathe anyone who tries to influence him, and he's certainly my favorite character in the show right now, but he's not really a character of free will or even one with a clear motivation. Though, the latter issue of which I'm not overly concerned about, as it's somewhat refreshing on this show to have a character who really just isn't bothered to be involved in the politics and abstains from joining the fray as much as possible.

    It's true what Queen Cercie says about playing the game of thrones, "either you win or you die." It's just strange to me that so many characters are invested in even playing at all. No one is fighting to make anything better, they're just fighting for meaningless titles and boons and childish notions of "honor," even the so-called good guys.

    If you're still only two episodes into the second season, I'd say that's an accurate assessment of Tyrion so far. He spends a lot of time just pulling away from what he's caught up in during the first season, and the first couple episodes of the second suffer a bit from the same expository clusterbombing going on. Once you see more of Tryion's King-Handing, his story should start to appeal more.

    f2ojmwh3geue.png
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I am loving reading all the speculation in here. I can't fucking wait to come in here at the season 3 finale.

    don't do this, man.

    giggle about this thread's speculation in the other thread.

    Tamin on
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    valiance wrote: »
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    I didn't say I need a single main character, I just need someone who is a decent person with an honorable agenda. Robb Stark is the closest to meeting that ideal, but even his war and defection from the Seven Kingdoms are based around selfish desires and petty notions of familial honor.


    Literally, this show is the biggest parade of assholes I've ever seen.

    What did Robb ever do? The Lannisters murdered his dad and the king is illegitimate. The Northerners are asserting their independence.

    Robb's just playing into the cycle of violence and bullshit heraldry. He's more "in the right" than just about anyone, but he's still just playing the same old game. And the Northerners aren't looking for "independence" as much as they are "sovereignty," no matter what they say. It's not like they're rejecting the King's rule for a representative parliamentary system or anything.

  • Mad King GeorgeMad King George Registered User regular

    Robb's just playing into the cycle of violence and bullshit heraldry. He's more "in the right" than just about anyone, but he's still just playing the same old game. And the Northerners aren't looking for "independence" as much as they are "sovereignty," no matter what they say. It's not like they're rejecting the King's rule for a representative parliamentary system or anything.

    No one's arguing that Robb isn't intending to remain a king of the north, but that the north as a whole wants its independence from the bullshit of the south. The south can politically maneuver themselves to hell and back as long as they let the north alone to run the north.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    valiance wrote: »
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    I didn't say I need a single main character, I just need someone who is a decent person with an honorable agenda. Robb Stark is the closest to meeting that ideal, but even his war and defection from the Seven Kingdoms are based around selfish desires and petty notions of familial honor.


    Literally, this show is the biggest parade of assholes I've ever seen.

    What did Robb ever do? The Lannisters murdered his dad and the king is illegitimate. The Northerners are asserting their independence.

    Robb's just playing into the cycle of violence and bullshit heraldry. He's more "in the right" than just about anyone, but he's still just playing the same old game. And the Northerners aren't looking for "independence" as much as they are "sovereignty," no matter what they say. It's not like they're rejecting the King's rule for a representative parliamentary system or anything.

    So your complaint is the medieval nobles aren't enlightenment era philosophers?

  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    valiance wrote: »
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    I didn't say I need a single main character, I just need someone who is a decent person with an honorable agenda. Robb Stark is the closest to meeting that ideal, but even his war and defection from the Seven Kingdoms are based around selfish desires and petty notions of familial honor.


    Literally, this show is the biggest parade of assholes I've ever seen.

    What did Robb ever do? The Lannisters murdered his dad and the king is illegitimate. The Northerners are asserting their independence.

    Robb's just playing into the cycle of violence and bullshit heraldry. He's more "in the right" than just about anyone, but he's still just playing the same old game. And the Northerners aren't looking for "independence" as much as they are "sovereignty," no matter what they say. It's not like they're rejecting the King's rule for a representative parliamentary system or anything.

    So your complaint is the medieval nobles aren't enlightenment era philosophers?

    From a narrative standpoint, it's hard to root for characters who are wholly self-concerned and without agency beyond their own personal desires. Even Robb, whose motivations are well-intended, is perfectly fine with sending thousands of his own people to their deaths for his father's honor and his sisters' hopeful salvation.

  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    shryke wrote: »
    valiance wrote: »
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    I didn't say I need a single main character, I just need someone who is a decent person with an honorable agenda. Robb Stark is the closest to meeting that ideal, but even his war and defection from the Seven Kingdoms are based around selfish desires and petty notions of familial honor.


    Literally, this show is the biggest parade of assholes I've ever seen.

    What did Robb ever do? The Lannisters murdered his dad and the king is illegitimate. The Northerners are asserting their independence.

    Robb's just playing into the cycle of violence and bullshit heraldry. He's more "in the right" than just about anyone, but he's still just playing the same old game. And the Northerners aren't looking for "independence" as much as they are "sovereignty," no matter what they say. It's not like they're rejecting the King's rule for a representative parliamentary system or anything.

    So your complaint is the medieval nobles aren't enlightenment era philosophers?

    From a narrative standpoint, it's hard to root for characters who are wholly self-concerned and without agency beyond their own personal desires. Even Robb, whose motivations are well-intended, is perfectly fine with sending thousands of his own people to their deaths for his father's honor and his sisters' hopeful salvation.

    Also so that their children can grow up in a North where they aren't subject to the whims of a 17 year-old sociopath who kills and tortures people for fun because Aunt Mommy told him he could.

    Taramoor on
  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    Hold up. The psycho king is 17? I swear he was 14-15 at best.

    And he really needs to hurry up and die. Violently.

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  • DiorinixDiorinix Registered User regular
    Surprise, surprise, Ross doesn't like a work of fiction because it's not real enough.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Mmmmm....toasty.
  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    I've always found the notion of having a character to root for entirely secondary to my enjoyment of a story. Sure, I obviously root for a John McClane or Indiana Jones - but I don't think I particularly root for anyone in Pulp Fiction, The Godfather or Hamlet, in The Sopranos or Breaking Bad. I do want to feel some sort of empathy for characters, and I can feel plenty of that for 90% of the characters in Game of Thrones, but rooting for someone is something that for me doesn't apply to most interesting (or, perhaps more importantly, interesting told) stories.

    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    valiance wrote: »
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    I didn't say I need a single main character, I just need someone who is a decent person with an honorable agenda. Robb Stark is the closest to meeting that ideal, but even his war and defection from the Seven Kingdoms are based around selfish desires and petty notions of familial honor.


    Literally, this show is the biggest parade of assholes I've ever seen.

    What did Robb ever do? The Lannisters murdered his dad and the king is illegitimate. The Northerners are asserting their independence.

    Robb's just playing into the cycle of violence and bullshit heraldry. He's more "in the right" than just about anyone, but he's still just playing the same old game. And the Northerners aren't looking for "independence" as much as they are "sovereignty," no matter what they say. It's not like they're rejecting the King's rule for a representative parliamentary system or anything.

    So your complaint is the medieval nobles aren't enlightenment era philosophers?

    From a narrative standpoint, it's hard to root for characters who are wholly self-concerned and without agency beyond their own personal desires. Even Robb, whose motivations are well-intended, is perfectly fine with sending thousands of his own people to their deaths for his father's honor and his sisters' hopeful salvation.

    Also so that their children can grow up in a North where they aren't subject to the whims of a 17 year-old sociopath who kills and tortures people for fun because Aunt Mommy told him he could.

    But how old is Robb? 18? 20? Hardly much better as a practice.

    Robb is a better person, and would surely make a better king, but that's not why people are fighting to give him a kingdom. For all the thousands of deaths, the thought of "who would BEST rule?" seems to be absent from everyone's mind.

  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Taramoor wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    valiance wrote: »
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    I didn't say I need a single main character, I just need someone who is a decent person with an honorable agenda. Robb Stark is the closest to meeting that ideal, but even his war and defection from the Seven Kingdoms are based around selfish desires and petty notions of familial honor.


    Literally, this show is the biggest parade of assholes I've ever seen.

    What did Robb ever do? The Lannisters murdered his dad and the king is illegitimate. The Northerners are asserting their independence.

    Robb's just playing into the cycle of violence and bullshit heraldry. He's more "in the right" than just about anyone, but he's still just playing the same old game. And the Northerners aren't looking for "independence" as much as they are "sovereignty," no matter what they say. It's not like they're rejecting the King's rule for a representative parliamentary system or anything.

    So your complaint is the medieval nobles aren't enlightenment era philosophers?

    From a narrative standpoint, it's hard to root for characters who are wholly self-concerned and without agency beyond their own personal desires. Even Robb, whose motivations are well-intended, is perfectly fine with sending thousands of his own people to their deaths for his father's honor and his sisters' hopeful salvation.

    Also so that their children can grow up in a North where they aren't subject to the whims of a 17 year-old sociopath who kills and tortures people for fun because Aunt Mommy told him he could.

    But how old is Robb? 18? 20? Hardly much better as a practice.

    Robb is a better person, and would surely make a better king, but that's not why people are fighting to give him a kingdom. For all the thousands of deaths, the thought of "who would BEST rule?" seems to be absent from everyone's mind.

    This is directly contradicted by Robb's ascension to King in the North

    They're all talking about who they should make common cause with to get Sansa & Arya back and vengance for Ned, and the minor lords of the north are throwing around names, and the Greatjon stands up and is all THERE'S ONLY ONE SONOFABITCH I'LL PLEDGE FEALTY TO AND HE'S SITTIN' RIGHT HERE and then they're all THE KING IN THE NORTH

    I mean, did you just miss that scene, or what?

    Salvation122 on
  • DiorinixDiorinix Registered User regular
    Ross: "But they did't have a reason to follow him with that kind of passion. Its not believable".

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Mmmmm....toasty.
  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    @Diorinix: don't be a silly goose. Ross isn't saying that X is unrealistic or not believable. I disagree with his points here, but you're putting words in his mouth, which isn't making this a more interesting conversation.

    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
  • Katsuhiro 1139Katsuhiro 1139 Dublin, IrelandRegistered User regular
    Tamin wrote: »
    I am loving reading all the speculation in here. I can't fucking wait to come in here at the season 3 finale.

    don't do this, man.

    giggle about this thread's speculation in the other thread.

    /giggles in other thread

  • BuddiesBuddies Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Taramoor wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    valiance wrote: »
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    I didn't say I need a single main character, I just need someone who is a decent person with an honorable agenda. Robb Stark is the closest to meeting that ideal, but even his war and defection from the Seven Kingdoms are based around selfish desires and petty notions of familial honor.


    Literally, this show is the biggest parade of assholes I've ever seen.

    What did Robb ever do? The Lannisters murdered his dad and the king is illegitimate. The Northerners are asserting their independence.

    Robb's just playing into the cycle of violence and bullshit heraldry. He's more "in the right" than just about anyone, but he's still just playing the same old game. And the Northerners aren't looking for "independence" as much as they are "sovereignty," no matter what they say. It's not like they're rejecting the King's rule for a representative parliamentary system or anything.

    So your complaint is the medieval nobles aren't enlightenment era philosophers?

    From a narrative standpoint, it's hard to root for characters who are wholly self-concerned and without agency beyond their own personal desires. Even Robb, whose motivations are well-intended, is perfectly fine with sending thousands of his own people to their deaths for his father's honor and his sisters' hopeful salvation.

    Also so that their children can grow up in a North where they aren't subject to the whims of a 17 year-old sociopath who kills and tortures people for fun because Aunt Mommy told him he could.

    But how old is Robb? 18? 20? Hardly much better as a practice.

    Robb is a better person, and would surely make a better king, but that's not why people are fighting to give him a kingdom. For all the thousands of deaths, the thought of "who would BEST rule?" seems to be absent from everyone's mind.

    Not Jorah Mormonts mind, he thinks Dany would be the best. The bannerman of the North think Robb Stark would be the best. Everyone in King's Landing thinks they would be the best, except maybe Tyrion. I don't know if Bronn really cares either, I think he just likes to foight people and to knock people off their high horses.

    I can't tell what Tywin Lannisters motives are. He seems pretty content being the richest person in Westeros, and a little tired of his families shit from his cousins to his children. I'm surprised he hasn't yet said "Nah, screw you guys... I'm King now"

    Stannis thinks he is the best, but only because of tradition. He doesn't really want it. I think he just doesn't want to be married to some tower troll anymore, either to have his beautiful wife back(was she ever beautiful?) or for her to finally die so he can get to bangin chicks without the guilt.

    Buddies on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    valiance wrote: »
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    I didn't say I need a single main character, I just need someone who is a decent person with an honorable agenda. Robb Stark is the closest to meeting that ideal, but even his war and defection from the Seven Kingdoms are based around selfish desires and petty notions of familial honor.


    Literally, this show is the biggest parade of assholes I've ever seen.

    What did Robb ever do? The Lannisters murdered his dad and the king is illegitimate. The Northerners are asserting their independence.

    Robb's just playing into the cycle of violence and bullshit heraldry. He's more "in the right" than just about anyone, but he's still just playing the same old game. And the Northerners aren't looking for "independence" as much as they are "sovereignty," no matter what they say. It's not like they're rejecting the King's rule for a representative parliamentary system or anything.

    So your complaint is the medieval nobles aren't enlightenment era philosophers?

    From a narrative standpoint, it's hard to root for characters who are wholly self-concerned and without agency beyond their own personal desires. Even Robb, whose motivations are well-intended, is perfectly fine with sending thousands of his own people to their deaths for his father's honor and his sisters' hopeful salvation.

    They don't lack agency. They just have motivations you disagree with.

    I would suggest that this means that a whole slew of works of fiction, including historical fiction, are not for you.

  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    valiance wrote: »
    Domhnall wrote: »
    Not gonna get a single main character, Ross.

    You could argue there's protagonists for geographical areas (Jon up North, Dany in Qarth, Tyrion for King's Landing). Whether you find them engaging or not is a matter of opinion though, I guess.

    I didn't say I need a single main character, I just need someone who is a decent person with an honorable agenda. Robb Stark is the closest to meeting that ideal, but even his war and defection from the Seven Kingdoms are based around selfish desires and petty notions of familial honor.


    Literally, this show is the biggest parade of assholes I've ever seen.

    What did Robb ever do? The Lannisters murdered his dad and the king is illegitimate. The Northerners are asserting their independence.

    Robb's just playing into the cycle of violence and bullshit heraldry. He's more "in the right" than just about anyone, but he's still just playing the same old game. And the Northerners aren't looking for "independence" as much as they are "sovereignty," no matter what they say. It's not like they're rejecting the King's rule for a representative parliamentary system or anything.

    So your complaint is the medieval nobles aren't enlightenment era philosophers?

    From a narrative standpoint, it's hard to root for characters who are wholly self-concerned and without agency beyond their own personal desires. Even Robb, whose motivations are well-intended, is perfectly fine with sending thousands of his own people to their deaths for his father's honor and his sisters' hopeful salvation.

    Also so that their children can grow up in a North where they aren't subject to the whims of a 17 year-old sociopath who kills and tortures people for fun because Aunt Mommy told him he could.

    But how old is Robb? 18? 20? Hardly much better as a practice.

    Robb is a better person, and would surely make a better king, but that's not why people are fighting to give him a kingdom. For all the thousands of deaths, the thought of "who would BEST rule?" seems to be absent from everyone's mind.

    This is directly contradicted by Robb's ascension to King in the North

    They're all talking about who they should make common cause with to get Sansa & Arya back and vengance for Ned, and the minor lords of the north are throwing around names, and the Greatjon stands up and is all THERE'S ONLY ONE SONOFABITCH I'LL PLEDGE FEALTY TO AND HE'S SITTIN' RIGHT HERE and then they're all THE KING IN THE NORTH

    I mean, did you just miss that scene, or what?

    How did that scene contradict anything I was saying? I'm arguing that separation of the North and Robb's ascension to king isn't motivated out of anything other than good ol' political wrangling and xenophobia (not that, in this case, it's a bad thing).

    The Northerners aren't rebelling out of any reason other than a desire for political sovereignty. Robb personally isn't after anything other than his family's honor. It's all just a show.

  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    From a narrative standpoint, it's hard to root for characters who are wholly self-concerned and without agency beyond their own personal desires. Even Robb, whose motivations are well-intended, is perfectly fine with sending thousands of his own people to their deaths for his father's honor and his sisters' hopeful salvation.

    They don't lack agency. They just have motivations you disagree with.

    I would suggest that this means that a whole slew of works of fiction, including historical fiction, are not for you.

    I didn't say they all lacked agency, I said that narratively you typically need a someone to root for, and on this show there are very few characters who have empathy beyond their immediate family.

  • DiorinixDiorinix Registered User regular
    Called it.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Mmmmm....toasty.
  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    From a narrative standpoint, it's hard to root for characters who are wholly self-concerned and without agency beyond their own personal desires. Even Robb, whose motivations are well-intended, is perfectly fine with sending thousands of his own people to their deaths for his father's honor and his sisters' hopeful salvation.

    They don't lack agency. They just have motivations you disagree with.

    I would suggest that this means that a whole slew of works of fiction, including historical fiction, are not for you.

    I didn't say they all lacked agency, I said that narratively you typically need a someone to root for, and on this show there are very few characters who have empathy beyond their immediate family.

    I disagree.

    There is no one "hero" per se. Early on it seemed Jon Snow was destined to fill that role but he's since slipped to the emo wayside. Right now it looks like either Arya or Tyrion, or possibly Davos or Brienne, or maybe Sansa or Dany, are the people to root for. They all have positives and negatives that might make them good or bad people, but I don't view ambiguity as a bad thing. Different people can support different characters for the throne for different reasons, or root for different characters or against different characters based on personal preference.

    So far, every character involved seems to believe they're doing the right thing. Nobody is evil just for the sake of being evil, which I view as a tremendous positive to the story as a whole.

    The fact that there isn't one clearly good or clearly bad character is not a bad thing.

  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    Joffrey seems clearly bad to me. Deep down he has to know he has no real right to the throne.

This discussion has been closed.