[Chaos] Chaos in the Old World - Discussion and signups - the Horned Rat

Jebu · May 2012

Is it weird that I was expecting Khorne to roll terribly?

In any case, I think I overreacted and took my eye off the real problem, Slaanesh.

blahmcblah · May 2012

Your pain brings me pleasure! I guess it's no wonder why I'm better with Slaanesh than any other god. :P

Aegis · May 2012

#71 reminds me now why I much prefer playing Tzeentch or Slaanesh for games. I'd try the Rat perhaps but the idea of playing 5th for card slots utterly terrifies me.

jakobagger · May 2012

The old world cards in game 71 have actually been pretty good for me mostly, but it's my first time playing the Rat so I spend a lot of time having no idea what I'm doing.

MrBody · May 2012

After seeing that longer game, I'd like to modify my entry to Expert Deck only.

Lykouragh · May 2012

Aegis wrote: »

#71 reminds me now why I much prefer playing Tzeentch or Slaanesh for games. I'd try the Rat perhaps but the idea of playing 5th for card slots utterly terrifies me.

I think they did some deliberate design around this- the Rat likes to play cards early, when the slots are less contested, and likes to play figures late.

How they did cool subtle things like that and managed to miss the infamous bloodletter upgrade I do not know.

Darian · May 2012

Seen on BGG today: Chaos in a Galaxy Far Far Away

Well ... I have really enjoyed this game, but, for the most part, it has had to be played under the cover of night so that my 10 and 8 yr old boys don't catch wind of it ... it's theme is MUCH too dark for them. However, the game is well balanced and the mechanics are very fun. Plus, I've been introducing, teaching, and playing heavier games with them for some time .... it started with Acquire and Aquaretto, moving on to games like Cosmic Encounter, and now they're learning A Game of Thrones, Warrior Knights, etc., so I thought that this game [in theory] would be fun for them, just not with it's current theme. So I have begun a project to re-theme it to a more "friendly" them: Star Wars.

It is a strict re-theme, not taking many liberties, except for some wording as well as few upgrade changes from the variants posted on BGG. The theme is that 4 organizations:

Mandalorians (Khorne)
Trade Federation (Nurgle)
Sith (Slaanesh)
Galactic Empire (Tzeentch)

are trying to exert their Influence (i.e. - corruption) in the galaxy, while the Rebel Alliance (i.e. - Old World) try to stop them.

Complete retheme of the base game to make it more accessible in a family setting.

mi-go hunter · May 2012

I saw the reskin... looked very interesting I must say! It really does aptly rename the powers and Chaos cards effect pretty darn well.

Tayrun · May 2012

Please tag me as inactive. I'll be taking a break until finals are finalised.

Sterica · May 2012

I never saw the theme as that dark.

Maybe I'm just kinda weird, but it's all just card names. There isn't any sort of gruesome fluff text to paint the scene.

jakobagger · May 2012

Rorus Raz wrote: »

I never saw the theme as that dark.

Maybe I'm just kinda weird, but it's all just card names. There isn't any sort of gruesome fluff text to paint the scene.

Yeah, I generally don't think too much about the horrors of Chaos while I play either. And I actually like that stuff.

Apart from that, I also feel I'd want my kids to be able to handle a bit of pulpy fantasy/horror.

Aegis · May 2012

Aside from explaining Slaanesh to young children, yea the board game itself doesn't come with that much backstory to flesh out the individual gods just from the cards themselves. Knowing the backstory I could see how one could interpret the setting itself as darker than your average boardgame, but that requires prior knowledge.

mi-go hunter · May 2012

Aegis wrote: »

Aside from explaining Slaanesh to young children, yea the board game itself doesn't come with that much backstory to flesh out the individual gods just from the cards themselves. Knowing the backstory I could see how one could interpret the setting itself as darker than your average boardgame, but that requires prior knowledge.

"Daddy, what does ectasy mean?"

"Uh, it means extreme happiness.... yeah that's it."

MrBody · May 2012

Well there's the fact that the board is displayed on stretched out human skin.

Someone needs to make a Chibi edition.

Sterica · May 2012

I didn't realize it was human skin until I watched a FFG video say just that. It's not like the map is bleeding or rotting to give you a hint as to its material. I'd be more concerned if your kid could actually identify it on his or her own. "Daddy, it puts the lotion on its skin..."

Slaanesh is about pleasure, and that doesn't have to revolve around sex 24/7, and it's rather annoying when people zero in on that. Granted, other things Slaanesh focuses on (self-mutilation, copious drug use) aren't what I would call G-Rated. Still, Chaos just has everything in such an abstract fashion that it's not terribly awful if you stay at the surface level.

But yeah, I can see why parents objecting to it. I think the real issue is that I have played and analyzed the game so much that I've long stopped viewing it in within the context of the background fluff and theme.

jakobagger · May 2012

I think ten years is about the time I began to learn about the wonders of the Warhammer universe, and it could have been earlier if I didn't have to learn English first (from Magic: the Gathering, and then Warhammer army books.)

I had a weird vocabulary, to say the least, and no idea about pronounciation. But I didn't go crazy, and on the whole I think I benefited - as did my written English. Can't really see a reason to censor this stuff apart from prudishness.

Lots of nice fluffy eurogames have messed up themes too, if you think too hard about them. Personally, I find colonialism, despotism and slavery much more morally reprehensible than drug use or sex, but it's not like this would keep me from playing Puerto Rico, Age of Empires etc, Through the Ages etc.

Also, Chibi anything is terrible, and one of the many things that keep me from enjoying almost all anime.

So, uh, how about that Horned Rat, huh. I haven't figured out yet how to play him, but I'm startin to think you should basically always take Council of Thirteen and Under Empire, at least in a 5-player game. Probably in that order.

doldari · May 2012

Game 70 has ended in a Khorne VP victory for SeGaTai, congratulation.

BobCesca · May 2012

I really need to get better at CitOW. I have lost and come last place again, and it's starting to get depressing. I think not having played the game in RL is affecting my understanding of the mechanics, or I'm just a bit shit (probably 6 of one, half a dozen of the other...).

Gorden858 · May 2012

Just saw that I'm not on "the List" anymore. Checked back and noticed that I never signed back up again in fact... But I also thought I was invited as a host and not a regular to Game 73 in the first place. Probably I just didn't get this whole invitation system...

To cut a long story short, I'd like to sign up again ^^

Darian · May 2012

Gorden858 wrote: »

Just saw that I'm not on "the List" anymore. Checked back and noticed that I never signed back up again in fact... But I also thought I was invited as a host and not a regular to Game 73 in the first place. Probably I just didn't get this whole invitation system...

To cut a long story short, I'd like to sign up again ^^

I've been using the host list as an alternate way to get selected but still pulling players from all lists they are on once selected. So the host list will often (but not always) be faster than the regular list, but it doesn't directly give extra plays.

susan · May 2012

Can I change my registration to "Morrslieb only, Expert OWC only"? I'd love to give the advanced stuff a try

.

Aegis · May 2012

I'm still half considering hosting Expert OWC games, though the last time I tried a half-dozen new games sprouted up likes weeds so I decided to give it a bit.

Darian · May 2012

We're running reasonably low-ish on games, again, now that doldari's are starting to finish up. Though we still have 5 active.

I think my next will be base + the Rat; need to see that interaction a bit more to see how things stand there.

Magic Geek · May 2012

Game 70 has ended in a Khorne VP victory for SeGaTai, congratulation.

SeGaTai wrote: »

Aiming for the Bloodletters won't due any good-I get the points anyway-this is why the upgrade is broken. Havoc and the other defensive cards can slow it down some but it really can't be countered as long as the dice stay in your favor.

[colour=black]
Regarding game 70... Khorne scored 28 points from the Bloodletter upgrade

So, when are you guys going to learn this upgrade just needs better players?
(like it says on BGG) :-)

Aegis · May 2012

@Darian , Just a minor thing I might have caught perusing your Unofficial FAQ and which spun out of experiences in game 71 just now. For #24 near the very bottom you have:

24. How do effects which grant additional dice or corruption interact with effects which limit or reduce? For example, if Choking Stench and another Nurgle card would reduce a bloodletter's dice to zero, will Vengeance still grant Khorne a battle die? If there is a single upgraded Leper in a region with Call to Arms! in play, does it place it's bonus corruption?
[FAQ - Old World effects are persistent and apply first; then, disabling effects are applied before enabling effects.
My ruling - "Additional" effects apply only if you would still have regular dice/corruption after all reductions. You can never have only the additional ones; in the examples above, Khorne would not roll any dice and Nurgle would not place any corruption.]

Regarding the bolded, nowhere in the actual FAQ or rules does it state that disabling effects occur prior to enabling effects, or even that there is a listed order of resolution at all. Rather, they note that disabling effects trump enabling effects when they contradict. To me, this would seem to render the actual ordering of effect resolution dependent on circumstances, where the actual timing of what goes first or second depends on whether the disabling effect ends up trumping the enabling effect or not.

So you would have situations in which sometimes the disabling effect resolves first or simultaneously in order to counteract the enabler, while in other times the enabling effect happens first and the disabler second because if the enabler went second it would undo the effects of the disabling card.

MrBody · May 2012

jakobagger wrote: »

So, uh, how about that Horned Rat, huh. I haven't figured out yet how to play him, but I'm startin to think you should basically always take Council of Thirteen and Under Empire, at least in a 5-player game. Probably in that order.

I've formed the opinion that 90% of the time you need to take Under Empire. Take away the UE/skitterleap abilities and the Rat is a very lackluster faction. The direct fighting power of Slaneesh/Tzeentch coupled with worse corruption cost ratios (1 to 1 ruination turn only compared to 1 for generating 1 every turn).

If a bunch of stars aligned and I had plenty of Skitterleaps AND regions were going to ruin adjacent to each other down a line, then I would take Council of 13 first.

If I managed to double tick first turn, I might consider the clan rat upgrade.

I might take Vermin Lord as a 2nd upgrade if he was already on the board.

Under no circumstances would I ever take the rat ogre upgrade. It's much less useful than people give it credit for. I think the only reason it's so popular is people are carrying over a base game mentality where protecting cultists is vital.

I would totally be down for an expert OWC game. In fact it's the only one I'm interested in right now since I have yet to play a game with more than 1 expert card picked.

Darian · May 2012

Aegis wrote: »

@Darian , Just a minor thing I might have caught perusing your Unofficial FAQ and which spun out of experiences in game 71 just now. For #24 near the very bottom you have:

24. How do effects which grant additional dice or corruption interact with effects which limit or reduce? For example, if Choking Stench and another Nurgle card would reduce a bloodletter's dice to zero, will Vengeance still grant Khorne a battle die? If there is a single upgraded Leper in a region with Call to Arms! in play, does it place it's bonus corruption?
[FAQ - Old World effects are persistent and apply first; then, disabling effects are applied before enabling effects.
My ruling - "Additional" effects apply only if you would still have regular dice/corruption after all reductions. You can never have only the additional ones; in the examples above, Khorne would not roll any dice and Nurgle would not place any corruption.]

Regarding the bolded, nowhere in the actual FAQ or rules does it state that disabling effects occur prior to enabling effects, or even that there is a listed order of resolution at all. Rather, they note that disabling effects trump enabling effects when they contradict. To me, this would seem to render the actual ordering of effect resolution dependent on circumstances, where the actual timing of what goes first or second depends on whether the disabling effect ends up trumping the enabling effect or not.

So you would have situations in which sometimes the disabling effect resolves first or simultaneously in order to counteract the enabler, while in other times the enabling effect happens first and the disabler second because if the enabler went second it would undo the effects of the disabling card.

The FAQ, page 10:

Q: While the Old World card “Call to Arms” is on the Old World track and the Morrslieb Nurgle Leper upgrade is in play, how many corruption tokens would he place in a region with a single Leper figure?
A: As stated on page 26 of the base game rulebook, disabling effects are resolved before enabling effects. Thus, in this case, the Leper would normally place a total of one corruption token, but “Call to Arms” reduces that total (by one) to zero. The Leper upgrade does not take effect because the Leper did not place any corruption tokens.

The rules, page 26:

Contradictory Effects
From time to time, different Chaos card effects, follower abilities, Old World card effects, and the like may come into apparent conflict, with one effect enabling some action while another disables the very same thing. In such instances, the disabling effect trumps the enabling effect.
For example, the Khorne Chaos card “Battle Cry” reads, “No corruption tokens may be placed in this region during this round,” while the Nurgle Chaos card “The Stench of Death” reads, “If you dominate this region, place two corruption tokens here.” If both cards were found in the same region at the same time, the Nurgle player would not place corruption tokens when dominating the region, because the disabling effect takes precedence.

So when they restate the "trumps" rule in the FAQ, they reworded it and said disabling effects are resolved before enabling effects, which is why I worded it the way I did in the UFAQ. In fact, with it specifically referring to the case where a leper would only get the bonus, I might even be able to take out the "My ruling" caution and just refer to that one as the FAQ ruling in entirety.

Aegis · May 2012

Well I can surely say I did not think of reading a Call of Arms FAQ page to look up disabling effect resolutions! Learn something new every day.

Speaking of FAQs, is there any word whether we're getting another one or would that only be for like a new expansion?

MrBody · May 2012

Fantasy Flight Games: Where the FAQs need FAQs.

blahmcblah · May 2012

Game 71 is going into double overtime (Round 7)! Come on Old World, you can do it somehow!

Darian · May 2012

One hit! One hit by me, or one fewer by anyone else, and that was over.

blahmcblah · May 2012

That was some crazy stuff.

doldari · May 2012

If Game 71 was ended, I was going to start Game 76. :winky: :winky:

Cerberus · May 2012

doldari wrote: »

If Game 71 was ended, I was going to start Game 76. :winky: :winky:

Feel free to start it anyway! No one will mind... I certainly won't!

Magic Geek · May 2012

game 71 = :-)

doldari · May 2012

I'll invite Game 76 and Game 77.

Cerberus
38thDoe
susan - Morrslieb only, expert OWC only
BlackRaider
pesky
jdarksun - inactive
SeGaTai
Daemonis
MrBody - Morrslieb only, Expert OWC only
Darian - Game 71 playing
Styyx

Edit : BobCesca
doldari - It's me.
stever777

Darian · May 2012

Suggestion to you: Have the players make an active decision on what to do about the bloodletter upgrade if they go with the Morrslieb set. It just feels as though that upgrade is overpowering the games a bit.

Suggestions for weakening it:
A. Only give one VP per figure killed
OR
B. Limit it to triggering once per region per phase

doldari · May 2012

Darian wrote: »

Suggestion to you: Have the players make an active decision on what to do about the bloodletter upgrade if they go with the Morrslieb set. It just feels as though that upgrade is overpowering the games a bit.

Suggestion for weakening it:
A. Only give one VP per figure killed
B. Limit it to triggering once per region per phase

I agree it.

Darian · May 2012

Er, I meant A or B, not both at once. In case that wasn't clear.

susan · May 2012

I'm still unconvinced that it's completely and utterly overpowered; I may change my mind after this Expert OWC game, of course, but I still think that smart play from opponents who realize its potency can nerf it properly.

Penny Arcade

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