AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I would agree with that definition as well, with various RPGs doing things better or worse depending on their particular developers. For example Skyrim is a fantastic game for exploring, finding hidden stuff and stabbing dudes, but it's combat system isn't that deep (or good) and the dialog in the game isn't great (neither is the core story). On the other hand something like Witcher 2 has a lot better combat and much better story (with many branching story choices) but isn't anywhere near as open or long as Skyrim is.
There is Resonance of Fate if you haven't played it, which has an excellent turn based style combat system (albeit, enemies can move while you are doing stuff, but you have all the time in the world to decide what to do on your turn). It's story is fairly clumsily put across and not that well directed until the end of the game, but it's a very fun and very satisfying game. I recommend giving it a look if you haven't played it.
I have Resonance of Fate, and it definitely doesn't scratch my "turn-based battle" itch. I do like it, but it's just not what I'm-a lookin' for in an RPG.
Xenosaga Episode II, Final Fantasy X and Super Mario RPG are probably my favorites as far as the battle system goes. Fairly recently, it's not anything special (other than the neat music timing thing), but Mother 3's battle system is extremely solid and it was SOOO satisfying to finally play another great game with proper turn-based battles.
That's the kind of stuff I want to be playing still. I wouldn't mind recommendations of more recent (good) games that have more traditional turn-based battle systems, if there are any.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I can't think of any JRPGs matching your description coming out, but you might want to look at Shadowrun Returns, Wasteland 2 and Banner Saga. All are 2D isometric RPGs with turn based combat systems. Also supposed to be very tactical in their combat as well. I love turned based combat as well and would agree there hasn't been anything that scratches that itch in some time.
There is Resonance of Fate if you haven't played it, which has an excellent turn based style combat system (albeit, enemies can move while you are doing stuff, but you have all the time in the world to decide what to do on your turn). It's story is fairly clumsily put across and not that well directed until the end of the game, but it's a very fun and very satisfying game. I recommend giving it a look if you haven't played it.
I have Resonance of Fate, and it definitely doesn't scratch my "turn-based battle" itch. I do like it, but it's just not what I'm-a lookin' for in an RPG.
Xenosaga Episode II, Final Fantasy X and Super Mario RPG are probably my favorites as far as the battle system goes. Fairly recently, it's not anything special (other than the neat music timing thing), but Mother 3's battle system is extremely solid and it was SOOO satisfying to finally play another great game with proper turn-based battles.
That's the kind of stuff I want to be playing still. I wouldn't mind recommendations of more recent (good) games that have more traditional turn-based battle systems, if there are any.
Dragon Quest IX and FFTA2 are both good and turn-based. As someone said upthread, your best shot for the old-school JRPG experience is probably on handhelds these days.
I thought it was going to be about Ultima 4, Pools of Radiance, Might & Magic or such games, and how western CRPGs with their freedom and problem solving have faded in favour of the linear interactive movies that are the JPRGs.
But if it really is the case that the tide is finally turning away from the JRPG and back to the CRPG, then my only comment is... VICTORY!!
Now you kids get off the lawn.
eobet on
Heard the proposition that RIAA and MPAA should join forces and form "Music And Film Industry Association"?
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
There is Resonance of Fate if you haven't played it, which has an excellent turn based style combat system (albeit, enemies can move while you are doing stuff, but you have all the time in the world to decide what to do on your turn). It's story is fairly clumsily put across and not that well directed until the end of the game, but it's a very fun and very satisfying game. I recommend giving it a look if you haven't played it.
I have Resonance of Fate, and it definitely doesn't scratch my "turn-based battle" itch. I do like it, but it's just not what I'm-a lookin' for in an RPG.
Xenosaga Episode II, Final Fantasy X and Super Mario RPG are probably my favorites as far as the battle system goes. Fairly recently, it's not anything special (other than the neat music timing thing), but Mother 3's battle system is extremely solid and it was SOOO satisfying to finally play another great game with proper turn-based battles.
That's the kind of stuff I want to be playing still. I wouldn't mind recommendations of more recent (good) games that have more traditional turn-based battle systems, if there are any.
Dragon Quest IX and FFTA2 are both good and turn-based. As someone said upthread, your best shot for the old-school JRPG experience is probably on handhelds these days.
I have Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions on my iPad and it's one of my favourite turn based strategy games of all time. OF ALL TIME. The amount of ways you can customize every soldier is just insane if you put enough time into the game.
I thought it was going to be about Ultima 4, Pools of Radiance, Might & Magic or such games, and how western CRPGs with their freedom and problem solving have faded in favour of the linear interactive movies that are the JPRGs.
But if it really is the case that the tide is finally turning away from the JRPG and back to the CRPG, then my only comment is... VICTORY!!
Now you kids get off the lawn.
Yeah I thought this topic would be like that as well. I really miss the days of Ultima 4, Pools of Radiance, Fallout and Planescape Torment. For example you can turn off many of the UI elements in Skyrim, like the quest markers, but the games quest system doesn't give you enough information to find what you're looking for. As an example, you'll get a quest to find X item, with the UI on it points you to where the dungeon with it is. Without the UI you have literally no idea where it is, because the game provides no in game way of figuring this out as the game was designed with the "Follow quest marker to victory!" in mind.
Minding I wouldn't say the tide is turning: Mass Effect 3 is brutally linear as a game from a narrative point of view (compared to ME and even ME2) and Witcher 2 was also pretty linear. Minding, there is a lot of "Figure this shit out for yourselves" aspect in Witcher 2, so if you've not played that I could recommend it to you. It's not entirely as open and free as those older games, but it does have a satisfying element of having to figure certain shit out for yourself.
Honestly, I think the best RPGs find the right balance between freedom and story telling. I like the Elder Scrolls a lot, but I prefer Mass Effect or Fable. I honestly think Dragon Age II was better then it's predecessor, the fact that it had a protagonist who spoke certainly helped me relate to the character a lot better.
That's another thing: I really hate silent protagonists. A lot. Gimme Geralt of Rivia over the Dovahkiin anyday.
I thought it was going to be about Ultima 4, Pools of Radiance, Might & Magic or such games, and how western CRPGs with their freedom and problem solving have faded in favour of the linear interactive movies that are the JPRGs.
But if it really is the case that the tide is finally turning away from the JRPG and back to the CRPG, then my only comment is... VICTORY!!
Now you kids get off the lawn.
I...what?
In what sense have western RPGs "faded"? I think Skyrim alone moved like 2.14 hojillion copies.
Honestly, I think the best RPGs find the right balance between freedom and story telling. I like the Elder Scrolls a lot, but I prefer Mass Effect or Fable. I honestly think Dragon Age II was better then it's predecessor, the fact that it had a protagonist who spoke certainly helped me relate to the character a lot better.
That's another thing: I really hate silent protagonists. A lot. Gimme Geralt of Rivia over the Dovahkiin anyday.
This is where my personal preference lies. It's true that I can be anything in an Elder Scrolls game - I can pretend that I'm an elderly cat lady, or a scholarly, nerdy orc, or a feral barbarian girl - but that's all in my head. There aren't really many avenues for you to convey those ideas to the actual game. "You can imagine whatever you want, as long as it's completely outside the scope of actual gameplay" doesn't really ring my bell; but I know that that's not the case for everyone, and I do kind of respect that the Elder Scrolls games have remained committed to it as part of their whole thing.
and I do kind of respect that the Elder Scrolls games have remained committed to it as part of their whole thing.
Nah, I got ya. I like it when a franchise has it's own thing going for it. I love Fable, Mass Effect, The Elder Scrolls, and Dragon Age. Each franchise is very different in terms of gameplay, setting, presentation, and such, and I like that.
Honestly, I think the best RPGs find the right balance between freedom and story telling. I like the Elder Scrolls a lot, but I prefer Mass Effect or Fable. I honestly think Dragon Age II was better then it's predecessor, the fact that it had a protagonist who spoke certainly helped me relate to the character a lot better.
That's another thing: I really hate silent protagonists. A lot. Gimme Geralt of Rivia over the Dovahkiin anyday.
I don't really care either way, but when having a non-silent protagonist sacrifices character creation in a sequel for no actual gain (Hawke is an absolutely awful character) then it just annoys me. The origin stores of DA:O were far more unique and interesting to me than having the game copy Mass Effect (and badly at that). Geralt is awesome though, but that's because the game makes it 100% clear you play this dood from the outset (as does Mass Effect). He's also well voice acted (especially as Mass Effect 2 also has this benfit too) and there are some meaningful decisions to make. Sacrificing depth in character creation and not giving it back in meaningful choice (consider Witcher 2 and Mass Effect vs. Skyrim - Skyrim has a massive amount of breadth, but little depth in terms of decisions while W2 and ME are the opposite), isn't a winning formulae as far as DA2 is concerned. It's basically inferior to DA:O on every single conceivable level for me.
I thought it was going to be about Ultima 4, Pools of Radiance, Might & Magic or such games, and how western CRPGs with their freedom and problem solving have faded in favour of the linear interactive movies that are the JPRGs.
But if it really is the case that the tide is finally turning away from the JRPG and back to the CRPG, then my only comment is... VICTORY!!
Now you kids get off the lawn.
I...what?
In what sense have western RPGs "faded"? I think Skyrim alone moved like 2.14 hojillion copies.
He could be talking about the style of gameplay, such as the freedom that the games granted you. Skyrim is more like the games he described in most ways than many others that have come out lately. There was a period where western RPGs were becoming very linear and story driven, as opposed to being more open and less focused on story.
Honestly, I think the best RPGs find the right balance between freedom and story telling. I like the Elder Scrolls a lot, but I prefer Mass Effect or Fable. I honestly think Dragon Age II was better then it's predecessor, the fact that it had a protagonist who spoke certainly helped me relate to the character a lot better.
That's another thing: I really hate silent protagonists. A lot. Gimme Geralt of Rivia over the Dovahkiin anyday.
This is where my personal preference lies. It's true that I can be anything in an Elder Scrolls game - I can pretend that I'm an elderly cat lady, or a scholarly, nerdy orc, or a feral barbarian girl - but that's all in my head. There aren't really many avenues for you to convey those ideas to the actual game. "You can imagine whatever you want, as long as it's completely outside the scope of actual gameplay" doesn't really ring my bell; but I know that that's not the case for everyone, and I do kind of respect that the Elder Scrolls games have remained committed to it as part of their whole thing.
Yeah, I've always had this complaint about the likes of Skyrim. For example, in Skyrim it gives me a "choice" between aiding the Empire or basically aiding the Nordic Rebellion. Yet there is little context behind this choice initially and it's really not supported very well as you make the decision to go one way or the other fairly early on. There isn't really a whole lot of ways to enforce what kind of character you are or solve problems in different ways (though in fairness, some quests can be solved through violence or sneaking into someones house etc).
At the same time, if some NPC is a total jerk to me and I dislike them, I am more than welcome to set them on fire. Something that a lot of "Narrative" driven RPGs like DA and ME don't let me do (as you can't choose to attack anyone who isn't hostile).
Well, Aegeri, that's just like, your opinion man. I thought DA2 blew Origins out of the water in every way. Neither of the two were as good as Jade Empire, but dem's the breaks.
I thought it was going to be about Ultima 4, Pools of Radiance, Might & Magic or such games, and how western CRPGs with their freedom and problem solving have faded in favour of the linear interactive movies that are the JPRGs.
But if it really is the case that the tide is finally turning away from the JRPG and back to the CRPG, then my only comment is... VICTORY!!
Now you kids get off the lawn.
I...what?
In what sense have western RPGs "faded"? I think Skyrim alone moved like 2.14 hojillion copies.
He could be talking about the style of gameplay, such as the freedom that the games granted you. Skyrim is more like the games he described in most ways than many others that have come out lately. There was a period where western RPGs were becoming very linear and story driven, as opposed to being more open and less focused on story.
I guess that makes sense, sort of (although even so, WRPG "story-driven" isn't really the same thing as JRPG "story-driven"). It just weirded me out seeing him frame it in the context of some, like, imaginary war between WRPGs and JRPGs. Ugh, why does everything with nerds have to be a battle to the death?
Because life is pain, and to avoid looking inside ourselves we must find an outside source of that pain. And so we find someone to blame, and someone to agree with our blame.
Because life is pain, and to avoid looking inside ourselves we must find an outside source of that pain. And so we find someone to blame, and someone to agree with our blame.
Well, Aegeri, that's just like, your opinion man. I thought DA2 blew Origins out of the water in every way. Neither of the two were as good as Jade Empire, but dem's the breaks.
Well yes, that would be the case but given DA2 sold worse, did worse in reviews and won "Most disappointing game of the year" awards consistently, it seems pretty well supported to me. To me, for DA2 to have better than DA:O it needed to be much more "Witcher 2" and much less, well, DA2. Witcher 2 is how you make a fantasy RPG with a voiced protagonist and a combat system with great action based combat. DA2 is how you basically do that badly: Which is pretty much why the developers are disavowing most of DA2s poor gameplay and story decisions when they've talked about [the currently unnanounced but clearly in development DA3]. For example, going back to more tactical BG2 like combat (instead of whatever DA2 tried to do) and more character choice/options.
DA2 to me took away everything that made DA:O great and gave not a single thing back except for improvements in interacting with your party members.
I thought it was going to be about Ultima 4, Pools of Radiance, Might & Magic or such games, and how western CRPGs with their freedom and problem solving have faded in favour of the linear interactive movies that are the JPRGs.
But if it really is the case that the tide is finally turning away from the JRPG and back to the CRPG, then my only comment is... VICTORY!!
Now you kids get off the lawn.
I...what?
In what sense have western RPGs "faded"? I think Skyrim alone moved like 2.14 hojillion copies.
He could be talking about the style of gameplay, such as the freedom that the games granted you. Skyrim is more like the games he described in most ways than many others that have come out lately. There was a period where western RPGs were becoming very linear and story driven, as opposed to being more open and less focused on story.
I guess that makes sense, sort of (although even so, WRPG "story-driven" isn't really the same thing as JRPG "story-driven"). It just weirded me out seeing him frame it in the context of some, like, imaginary war between WRPGs and JRPGs. Ugh, why does everything with nerds have to be a battle to the death?
If you were reading certain RPG forums a while ago, I think maybe around the time RPGs from western developers were transitioning from the BG2/Fallout type model to something more narrative driven like Mass Effect, you could swear there had been a jihad called on JRPGs. Why you would ask? Because a lot of those western RPGs were largely PC centric before the current generation. So naturally it was JRPGs popularity combined with consoles that obviously destroyed the RPG genre.
Obviously.
Edit: In fairness, I think this was (is?) a reaction to the lack of older style isometric, 2D and turn based RPGs that used to be a standard in the market.
JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
edited May 2012
I personally thought DA2 was pretty terrific despite having several glaring time/money issues, as did the girl I was seeing at the time and most of my friends online and off. While there's no denying that it disappointed or angered a lot of people, I would caution heavily against taking from this that "DA2 was bad" is some universally agreed-on notion. I think a more even-handed appraisal would be that actual problems conspired with controversial but legitimate choices in design and subject matter to create a polarizing experience.
Man, Aegeri, I just like the game. I just do. Get off the soapbox, you can't whine DA2 out of existance, so I don't see why you feel need to keep going on about how it eats orphanages and burns down puppies.
Just relax, Broseph.
And Kosh, I had the same experiance. My friend who also owns a copy of it loves it.
DA2 was ok, imo. The only reason I don't label it as ass is because there's a lack of wrpgs that don't borrow too heavily from other genres, so I can't be too picky. I absolutely loved the original though. Gave me BG2 vibes throughout.
@CaptainNemo: you...liked...Jade Empire? :P You should get together with the 4 other people that did. Maybe call it Jadecon. Or something.
Full disclosure: I like my rpgs with a fuckton of numbers, unforgiving difficulty and enough convoluted mechanics to fill a phonebook.
I wish people still made good JRPGs with interesting turn-based battle systems.
"Good" and "turn-based" seem to be mutually exclusive these days, and I just don't like JRPGs with faux-action-game battle systems because they always seem to mix all of the wrong elements (for my taste) from both genres together.
Shin Megami Tensei
Why people always overlook these games when the "there are no good turn based RPGs anymore" discussion pops up I will never understand.
I personally thought DA2 was pretty terrific despite having several glaring time/money issues, as did the girl I was seeing at the time and most of my friends online and off.
Convesely, nobody I know liked DA2 or thought it was a worthy sequel to DA:O, because it went too far away from being that spiritual successor to BG2 that we loved (speaking of, I really would love a BG3). Hopefully the guys doing the iPad BG2 update will be able to get the ability to do a BG3 (though I doubt it). If they did, I wonder what ruleset they will be using.
Edit: Jade Empire is a really good game that tried to do something genuinely different. It should be applauded for it.
That's the kind of stuff I want to be playing still. I wouldn't mind recommendations of more recent (good) games that have more traditional turn-based battle systems, if there are any.
Breath of Death VI. Surprised no one's mentioned it yet!
I don't think the current JRPG slump is anything more than a byproduct of the Japanese gaming industry slump. A combination of fierce conservatism and desperate pandering to foreign players seems to have paralyzed developers. Yet it still (occasionally) produces products like The World Ends With You, Persona 3 & 4, several Pokemans, and Xenoblade (based only on what I've heard).
There's still plenty of life in the genre. Japan just needs to get its mojo back.
Edit: Quote fixed. Sorry Aegeri!
Rex Dart on
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I personally thought DA2 was pretty terrific despite having several glaring time/money issues, as did the girl I was seeing at the time and most of my friends online and off.
Convesely, nobody I know liked DA2 or thought it was a worthy sequel to DA:O, because it went too far away from being that spiritual successor to BG2 that we loved (speaking of, I really would love a BG3).
That's not really why I related that. I'm not here to tally up everyone that liked or didn't like the game.
Jacobkosh on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
That's the kind of stuff I want to be playing still. I wouldn't mind recommendations of more recent (good) games that have more traditional turn-based battle systems, if there are any.
Breath of Death VI. Surprised no one's mentioned it yet!
I don't think the current JRPG slump is anything more than a byproduct of the Japanese gaming industry slump. A combination of fierce conservatism and desperate pandering to foreign players seems to have paralyzed developers. Yet it still (occasionally) produces products like The World Ends With You, Persona 3 & 4, several Pokemans, and Xenoblade (based only on what I've heard).
There's still plenty of life in the genre. Japan just needs to get its mojo back.
Also Cthulu Saves the World, which is an equally fantastic old school turn based combat JRPG style game. They are really cheap on steam as well if anyone didn't know that. One nitpick though: That quote isn't from me, it's from someone else :P
Traditional JRPG's rub me up the wrong way. Outdated design makes me more likely to quit playing.
They should start borrowing ideas from WRPG's. Xenoblade is the prime example of making something that has both values, and it's the first JRPG I've been beaten in years. Then you have stuff like Breath of Death VII and Cthulhu Saves the World that adds modern features into a more traditional experience. I'd rather have that.
I prefer a focused experience in my rpgs not for narrative strength but because it makes them less likely to be poorly balanced and full of boring, broken combat. So I usually throw down with jrpgs more than what crpgs have become.
Really, while the combat changes (waves, camera, speed, etc) didn't help, the real problem with DA2 as a RPG was the purposeful disregard for player agency. The core difference between cRPGs and jRPGs, or other genres for that matter, is the implimentation of choice and consequence, to at least give the illusion that you're shaping your own narrative rather than just walking down a corridor watching carefully scripted triggered events (even though in practice, you're doing that anyway).
But you had plenty of choices and consequences in DA2. Hell, you could lose party members permanently if you fucked up in that game and oh god why do we do this to ourselves and argue pettily about a bunch of soundbites and pixels?
But you had plenty of choices and consequences in DA2. Hell, you could lose party members permanently if you fucked up in that game and oh god why do we do this to ourselves and argue pettily about a bunch of soundbites and pixels?
It goes out of it's way to show you how your choices don't matter multiple times (and yes, we've had this argument before, and if it is a deconstruction of the genre, it doesn't accomplish it nearly gracefully enough). Ending spoilers:
The mission with those apostates in ch 1, which is revisited in a later act, anders olol, the end bosses, etc
But you had plenty of choices and consequences in DA2. Hell, you could lose party members permanently if you fucked up in that game and oh god why do we do this to ourselves and argue pettily about a bunch of soundbites and pixels?
It goes out of it's way to show you how your choices don't matter multiple times (and yes, we've had this argument before, and if it is a deconstruction of the genre, it doesn't accomplish it nearly gracefully enough). Ending spoilers:
The mission with those apostates in ch 1, which is revisited in a later act, anders olol, the end bosses, etc
Let's deconstruct our arguments and just stop giving a fuck. Nothing I can say will change your mind, and versa vice. So, let's just stop before we all get betwaddled by this minxious rapport.
There have been more good JRPGs this gen than people give the genre credit for, honestly.
Without playing Xenoblade, this generation I've played Final Fantasy XIII, Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, Eternal Sonata, Resonance of Fate and um, Valkyria Chronicles. Of those, only Valkyria Chronicles really stands out as being amazing from both a turn based combat point of view and just having some great JRPG stylings.
Last generation I played Final Fantasy X and XII, Disgaea and Disgaea 2, Xenosaga, Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, Dragon Quest VIII, Shadow Hearts Covenant, Shadow Hearts: From the New World, Rogue Galaxy, Phantom Brave, Persona 3 and Persona 4, Kingdom Hearts, Kingdom Hearts 2 and probably a few others. All of these on my PS3, where they made up a huge amount of my games collection (and the majority of my top games that generation too).
I don't know if it is me, as in I've just lost interest in JRPGs in general or if JRPGs are in some kind of decline, but this generation I've not had anywhere near the interest in JRPGs in general. Dragon's Dogma coming out this month and Dark Souls from last year are two of the only Japanese developed RPGs I've been interested in: But neither are classic JRPGs as the OP would define them. Of the ones I have played, only Eternal Sonata, Resonance of Fate and Valkyria Chronicles were especially memorable. Final Fantasy XIII actually managed to actively put me off bothering with JRPGs actually, because it's when I realized I don't need RPG stockholm syndrome to enjoy a game anymore. If it isn't fun from the start, I no longer bother with it. Given many JRPGs spend hours babbling on about irrelevant crap and stretching gameplay mechanics tutorials out over hours - it just feels like something I don't have the patience for anymore.
But you had plenty of choices and consequences in DA2. Hell, you could lose party members permanently if you fucked up in that game and oh god why do we do this to ourselves and argue pettily about a bunch of soundbites and pixels?
Given at PAX east during the Bioware panel the developers of DA2 admitted the game failed to have meaningful choices and consequences - something they intend to improve on in future (again the obvious subtext being what they are doing with DA3) - I think this isn't an argument and an established fact.
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I have Resonance of Fate, and it definitely doesn't scratch my "turn-based battle" itch. I do like it, but it's just not what I'm-a lookin' for in an RPG.
Xenosaga Episode II, Final Fantasy X and Super Mario RPG are probably my favorites as far as the battle system goes. Fairly recently, it's not anything special (other than the neat music timing thing), but Mother 3's battle system is extremely solid and it was SOOO satisfying to finally play another great game with proper turn-based battles.
That's the kind of stuff I want to be playing still. I wouldn't mind recommendations of more recent (good) games that have more traditional turn-based battle systems, if there are any.
Dragon Quest IX and FFTA2 are both good and turn-based. As someone said upthread, your best shot for the old-school JRPG experience is probably on handhelds these days.
But if it really is the case that the tide is finally turning away from the JRPG and back to the CRPG, then my only comment is... VICTORY!!
Now you kids get off the lawn.
I have Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions on my iPad and it's one of my favourite turn based strategy games of all time. OF ALL TIME. The amount of ways you can customize every soldier is just insane if you put enough time into the game.
Yeah I thought this topic would be like that as well. I really miss the days of Ultima 4, Pools of Radiance, Fallout and Planescape Torment. For example you can turn off many of the UI elements in Skyrim, like the quest markers, but the games quest system doesn't give you enough information to find what you're looking for. As an example, you'll get a quest to find X item, with the UI on it points you to where the dungeon with it is. Without the UI you have literally no idea where it is, because the game provides no in game way of figuring this out as the game was designed with the "Follow quest marker to victory!" in mind.
Minding I wouldn't say the tide is turning: Mass Effect 3 is brutally linear as a game from a narrative point of view (compared to ME and even ME2) and Witcher 2 was also pretty linear. Minding, there is a lot of "Figure this shit out for yourselves" aspect in Witcher 2, so if you've not played that I could recommend it to you. It's not entirely as open and free as those older games, but it does have a satisfying element of having to figure certain shit out for yourself.
That's another thing: I really hate silent protagonists. A lot. Gimme Geralt of Rivia over the Dovahkiin anyday.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
I...what?
In what sense have western RPGs "faded"? I think Skyrim alone moved like 2.14 hojillion copies.
I wouldn't know, as the only WRPG I've ever played that I thought was bad was Venetica.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
This is where my personal preference lies. It's true that I can be anything in an Elder Scrolls game - I can pretend that I'm an elderly cat lady, or a scholarly, nerdy orc, or a feral barbarian girl - but that's all in my head. There aren't really many avenues for you to convey those ideas to the actual game. "You can imagine whatever you want, as long as it's completely outside the scope of actual gameplay" doesn't really ring my bell; but I know that that's not the case for everyone, and I do kind of respect that the Elder Scrolls games have remained committed to it as part of their whole thing.
Nah, I got ya. I like it when a franchise has it's own thing going for it. I love Fable, Mass Effect, The Elder Scrolls, and Dragon Age. Each franchise is very different in terms of gameplay, setting, presentation, and such, and I like that.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
I don't really care either way, but when having a non-silent protagonist sacrifices character creation in a sequel for no actual gain (Hawke is an absolutely awful character) then it just annoys me. The origin stores of DA:O were far more unique and interesting to me than having the game copy Mass Effect (and badly at that). Geralt is awesome though, but that's because the game makes it 100% clear you play this dood from the outset (as does Mass Effect). He's also well voice acted (especially as Mass Effect 2 also has this benfit too) and there are some meaningful decisions to make. Sacrificing depth in character creation and not giving it back in meaningful choice (consider Witcher 2 and Mass Effect vs. Skyrim - Skyrim has a massive amount of breadth, but little depth in terms of decisions while W2 and ME are the opposite), isn't a winning formulae as far as DA2 is concerned. It's basically inferior to DA:O on every single conceivable level for me.
He could be talking about the style of gameplay, such as the freedom that the games granted you. Skyrim is more like the games he described in most ways than many others that have come out lately. There was a period where western RPGs were becoming very linear and story driven, as opposed to being more open and less focused on story.
Yeah, I've always had this complaint about the likes of Skyrim. For example, in Skyrim it gives me a "choice" between aiding the Empire or basically aiding the Nordic Rebellion. Yet there is little context behind this choice initially and it's really not supported very well as you make the decision to go one way or the other fairly early on. There isn't really a whole lot of ways to enforce what kind of character you are or solve problems in different ways (though in fairness, some quests can be solved through violence or sneaking into someones house etc).
At the same time, if some NPC is a total jerk to me and I dislike them, I am more than welcome to set them on fire. Something that a lot of "Narrative" driven RPGs like DA and ME don't let me do (as you can't choose to attack anyone who isn't hostile).
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I guess that makes sense, sort of (although even so, WRPG "story-driven" isn't really the same thing as JRPG "story-driven"). It just weirded me out seeing him frame it in the context of some, like, imaginary war between WRPGs and JRPGs. Ugh, why does everything with nerds have to be a battle to the death?
This is called human history.
It is also called tumblr.
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Well yes, that would be the case but given DA2 sold worse, did worse in reviews and won "Most disappointing game of the year" awards consistently, it seems pretty well supported to me. To me, for DA2 to have better than DA:O it needed to be much more "Witcher 2" and much less, well, DA2. Witcher 2 is how you make a fantasy RPG with a voiced protagonist and a combat system with great action based combat. DA2 is how you basically do that badly: Which is pretty much why the developers are disavowing most of DA2s poor gameplay and story decisions when they've talked about [the currently unnanounced but clearly in development DA3]. For example, going back to more tactical BG2 like combat (instead of whatever DA2 tried to do) and more character choice/options.
DA2 to me took away everything that made DA:O great and gave not a single thing back except for improvements in interacting with your party members.
If you were reading certain RPG forums a while ago, I think maybe around the time RPGs from western developers were transitioning from the BG2/Fallout type model to something more narrative driven like Mass Effect, you could swear there had been a jihad called on JRPGs. Why you would ask? Because a lot of those western RPGs were largely PC centric before the current generation. So naturally it was JRPGs popularity combined with consoles that obviously destroyed the RPG genre.
Obviously.
Edit: In fairness, I think this was (is?) a reaction to the lack of older style isometric, 2D and turn based RPGs that used to be a standard in the market.
Just relax, Broseph.
And Kosh, I had the same experiance. My friend who also owns a copy of it loves it.
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@CaptainNemo: you...liked...Jade Empire? :P You should get together with the 4 other people that did. Maybe call it Jadecon. Or something.
Full disclosure: I like my rpgs with a fuckton of numbers, unforgiving difficulty and enough convoluted mechanics to fill a phonebook.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Shin Megami Tensei
Why people always overlook these games when the "there are no good turn based RPGs anymore" discussion pops up I will never understand.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
We call it Empirecon okay?!
But seriously, Jade Empire, even with it's retarded party system, is a really under-rated game.
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Convesely, nobody I know liked DA2 or thought it was a worthy sequel to DA:O, because it went too far away from being that spiritual successor to BG2 that we loved (speaking of, I really would love a BG3). Hopefully the guys doing the iPad BG2 update will be able to get the ability to do a BG3 (though I doubt it). If they did, I wonder what ruleset they will be using.
Edit: Jade Empire is a really good game that tried to do something genuinely different. It should be applauded for it.
True. It does get kind of annoying getting paragraph long screeds everytime you mention the game.
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Breath of Death VI. Surprised no one's mentioned it yet!
I don't think the current JRPG slump is anything more than a byproduct of the Japanese gaming industry slump. A combination of fierce conservatism and desperate pandering to foreign players seems to have paralyzed developers. Yet it still (occasionally) produces products like The World Ends With You, Persona 3 & 4, several Pokemans, and Xenoblade (based only on what I've heard).
There's still plenty of life in the genre. Japan just needs to get its mojo back.
Edit: Quote fixed. Sorry Aegeri!
That's not really why I related that. I'm not here to tally up everyone that liked or didn't like the game.
Also Cthulu Saves the World, which is an equally fantastic old school turn based combat JRPG style game. They are really cheap on steam as well if anyone didn't know that. One nitpick though: That quote isn't from me, it's from someone else :P
They should start borrowing ideas from WRPG's. Xenoblade is the prime example of making something that has both values, and it's the first JRPG I've been beaten in years. Then you have stuff like Breath of Death VII and Cthulhu Saves the World that adds modern features into a more traditional experience. I'd rather have that.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
But personal preferences lol and all that.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
http://blogs.sega.com/2010/04/16/alpha-protocol-obsidian-entertainment-pax-but-thou-must
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that's because a lot of examples are responded with "that has fundamentally western design" or "Nintendo doesn't count"
It goes out of it's way to show you how your choices don't matter multiple times (and yes, we've had this argument before, and if it is a deconstruction of the genre, it doesn't accomplish it nearly gracefully enough). Ending spoilers:
Let's deconstruct our arguments and just stop giving a fuck. Nothing I can say will change your mind, and versa vice. So, let's just stop before we all get betwaddled by this minxious rapport.
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Without playing Xenoblade, this generation I've played Final Fantasy XIII, Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, Eternal Sonata, Resonance of Fate and um, Valkyria Chronicles. Of those, only Valkyria Chronicles really stands out as being amazing from both a turn based combat point of view and just having some great JRPG stylings.
Last generation I played Final Fantasy X and XII, Disgaea and Disgaea 2, Xenosaga, Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, Dragon Quest VIII, Shadow Hearts Covenant, Shadow Hearts: From the New World, Rogue Galaxy, Phantom Brave, Persona 3 and Persona 4, Kingdom Hearts, Kingdom Hearts 2 and probably a few others. All of these on my PS3, where they made up a huge amount of my games collection (and the majority of my top games that generation too).
I don't know if it is me, as in I've just lost interest in JRPGs in general or if JRPGs are in some kind of decline, but this generation I've not had anywhere near the interest in JRPGs in general. Dragon's Dogma coming out this month and Dark Souls from last year are two of the only Japanese developed RPGs I've been interested in: But neither are classic JRPGs as the OP would define them. Of the ones I have played, only Eternal Sonata, Resonance of Fate and Valkyria Chronicles were especially memorable. Final Fantasy XIII actually managed to actively put me off bothering with JRPGs actually, because it's when I realized I don't need RPG stockholm syndrome to enjoy a game anymore. If it isn't fun from the start, I no longer bother with it. Given many JRPGs spend hours babbling on about irrelevant crap and stretching gameplay mechanics tutorials out over hours - it just feels like something I don't have the patience for anymore.
Given at PAX east during the Bioware panel the developers of DA2 admitted the game failed to have meaningful choices and consequences - something they intend to improve on in future (again the obvious subtext being what they are doing with DA3) - I think this isn't an argument and an established fact.