tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
I assume that the Sith have some sort of protection ability, either passive or active, that returns a null result to a Knight's meditation. With this many seers, that only makes sense. The question is, how to catch them off-guard?
Please discuss and pick apart this plan for all its logical flaws. We need to know if it won't work.
Flaws? At best, you've wasted a night.
Most likely, the Sith have the Jedi power set. This means that any public organization can be counteracted by behaving as they're told. "Great!", you might say. "That means they're not accomplishing their
objectives!"
Wrong. I'd assume that they get kill powers (ie, the normal mafia ability) that does not utilize the subgame's action.
So we make no progress towards the completion of secondary goals, but we prevent them from doing the same. Meanwhile, Night 1 happens as it does in any Phalla... which generally means dead villagers and no useful voting record.
Conversely, if we break the Knights into strike forces and assign them goals, we make progress towards secondary objectives on the day when the vote isn't getting us anything. And, if we're clever about it, we can force the Sith to assist us or risk outing their Padawans.
These are excellent points. I assumed the Sith have at least one group kill that's independent of the subgame. I also assume that's aimed squarely at the Council members.
Maybe the Benubi Initiative isn't the optimal way to go about it, but there are 2/5 players with a seer ability! Something in my spider-sense tells me that there must be a way to leverage an en masse, public use of that power to either (1) catch Sith outright, or (2) use the public information to catch Sith in lies later.
I'm going to continue saying that trying to find the Sith in the council at this point is a bad idea, however we go about it. We can be sure they will be protected plenty of ways tonight.
Also, since the non-Sith members of the council have a fairly short life expectancy at this point, I think whichever original is still alive on the council a few days from now will some 'splainin to do...
Why do people insist on making proboards admin-account-activated.
You really think someone is going to guess the proboards link (or search for it through proboards directory listing or whatever), register as a fake name or pose as someone else, day 1 or 2?
0
BaidolI will hold him offEscape while you canRegistered Userregular
No, but I do think people have been known to leak information they really should keep to themselves like a sieve.
They would almost have to be. If its a "Council Secret" as to who is in which group, then its really a Council + Sith secret. So the only people being left out are the village at large.
My spreadsheet linked before lays out one way to simply assign 2 knights per council member.
CayrusConsulFriends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears!Registered Userregular
I've always wondered how easy it would be to search for mafia proboards by searching for a specific board name or username. I assume not very or it would have been done before.
Publicly known (or even council-known) assignments are bad.
With the Sith on the council, there shouldn't be any difference between the two at the moment. We can assume anything the council as a whole knows, they know. At this point, I think they are totally compromised and our focus shouldn't be on the old men, but on the working men on the ground. #OccupyCoruscant
You want to get the council involved? Assign each council member to two Knight/Padawan pairings. Have the 5 of them discuss actions together but not reveal it to the rest of the thread/council under orders are resolved.
I really like this in theory, but I'm not sure on the math. Assuming 10 Sith, that means EVERY group would be likely to have at least one. That still give them all the information to thwart what we are trying to accomplish. Before we group up, I think we need a little more information about who is on our side. I still think scanning our padawans and seeing who's accusing who (and who isn't) tomorrow gives us the best chance to work together in non-compromised groups. If some of us want to get started on taking planets tonight, that's fine as well, but I think our focus should be on clearing as many teams as we can.
Basically, just assign numbers 1-20 to Knights and 1-10 to Council, and roll 10#2d20 on Orokos, then replace all the duplicate numbers with unrolled numbers.
I've always wondered how easy it would be to search for mafia proboards by searching for a specific board name or username. I assume not very or it would have been done before.
I think I remember in the phallakinetic finale that a search for Primaphorior led to our proboards quite easily
Publicly known (or even council-known) assignments are bad.
You want to get the council involved? Assign each council member to two Knight/Padawan pairings. Have the 5 of them discuss actions together but not reveal it to the rest of the thread/council under orders are resolved.
I like that idea.
This could be a problem if there are Sith council members.
0
38thDoelets never be stupid againwait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered Userregular
They would almost have to be. If its a "Council Secret" as to who is in which group, then its really a Council + Sith secret. So the only people being left out are the village at large.
My spreadsheet linked before lays out one way to simply assign 2 knights per council member.
Yes, it needs to be public and it needs to be assigned randomly.
Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
Assuming 10 sith, and then also assuming totally random distribution of players, there is a chance of getting some groups with NO sith in it (yay!) but we also have a chance of having some groups with ALL sith (boo!)
Catching up to the thread, not sure why matev's plan was destroyed so quickly. Not really a role call, simply a way of aiming actions to collect data and reason about it.
I don't expect it to be a role call, I'm sure ObiFett added in a few things (such as uncertainty or 'cover') to make up for it. If we simply let everyone do his/her thing without any overseeing control, people can claim what they want and mafia can hide where they want.
Quoted for truth! I put down a semi-joke vote on The Road Virus last night, but I think he's been acting VERY mafia-ish. He was very quick to post while PMs were still going out, has managed to suggest that we both meditate on the council AND meditate on padawans within five posts without providing a good rationale for either, AND he's maanged to go through this whole discussion without adding anything when we got serious.
I know I'm kinda new, but can we get this bandwagon rolling?
Publicly known (or even council-known) assignments are bad.
With the Sith on the council, there shouldn't be any difference between the two at the moment. We can assume anything the council as a whole knows, they know. At this point, I think they are totally compromised and our focus shouldn't be on the old men, but on the working men on the ground. #OccupyCoruscant
You want to get the council involved? Assign each council member to two Knight/Padawan pairings. Have the 5 of them discuss actions together but not reveal it to the rest of the thread/council under orders are resolved.
I really like this in theory, but I'm not sure on the math. Assuming 10 Sith, that means EVERY group would be likely to have at least one. That still give them all the information to thwart what we are trying to accomplish. Before we group up, I think we need a little more information about who is on our side. I still think scanning our padawans and seeing who's accusing who (and who isn't) tomorrow gives us the best chance to work together in non-compromised groups. If some of us want to get started on taking planets tonight, that's fine as well, but I think our focus should be on clearing as many teams as we can.
That isn't how probability works. We'd proably get 6-8 groups with 1-2 members, and a few groups with no mafia.
I've always thought clearing padawans/small jedi teams, and working from there seems best, because the ones that can prove trustworthy to each other can work well. Lots of mini networks would be hard to infiltrate.
However, it invariably comes down to
If 40% of the game has an alignment seer, then the Sith have a way of counteracting it. Maybe the Sith powers are very similar to the Jedi, but with the addition of "Hide Alignment + <something else>" so they can either choose to block seer attempts, or risk being discovered, but maybe get a vig or something (unlikely quite that powerful, but whatever).
0
Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
Feel free to waste a day killing a Knight.
I have no real way of proving myself since all of the abilities have been posted, though.
I didn't know that changing plans based on people coming up with better ideas than you was a crime, but oh well!
8->
Feel free to waste a day killing a Knight.
I have no real way of proving myself since all of the abilities have been posted, though.
I didn't know that changing plans based on people coming up with better ideas than you was a crime, but oh well!
8->
That's all well and good, except it's not really what happened. When you suggested looking at the council, people were agreeing with you. And then you went and said "there's more group, we should do the padawans" And then you stopped saying anything, until you showed up with some math on the group that I'd already posted.
So I was thinking about this. If we can't vote the Council members out, it's safe to assume that the Council members in right now are not Sith. But those who get voted in later could be. So do we rally around our Jedi Masters at this point or stick close to our Knights?
I'd also like to point out that splitting into teams with council members heading them doesn't change anything for the better if all of the council members agree on the current choice of action.
To be fair, it's also not like we have a whole lot else to go on Day 1. With the odd being that we'd vote out a villager anyways, might as well be one that's acting oddly.
So I was thinking about this. If we can't vote the Council members out, it's safe to assume that the Council members in right now are not Sith. But those who get voted in later could be. So do we rally around our Jedi Masters at this point or stick close to our Knights?
Hey Grunt's, take a look back at the last page. I think we're all in pretty good agreement that there is at least one (and probably two) Sith on the council at the moment.
I would assume there are sith in the council. That would give the sith opportunity to try to mess around in the council's vote and actions, which makes for a better 'game'.
There are some mechanics in the council which are designed for mafia to take advantage of (such as the successor lists being public rather than private)
Publicly known (or even council-known) assignments are bad.
You want to get the council involved? Assign each council member to two Knight/Padawan pairings. Have the 5 of them discuss actions together but not reveal it to the rest of the thread/council under orders are resolved.
I like that idea.
This could be a problem if there are Sith council members.
Which is a safe bet. It's hard to know if it would be as rigid at the 2-4-4 split people suggested earlier, because that might make it very easy to find mafia, so I guess maybe SOME randomness would exist, but not too much.
Publicly known (or even council-known) assignments are bad.
You want to get the council involved? Assign each council member to two Knight/Padawan pairings. Have the 5 of them discuss actions together but not reveal it to the rest of the thread/council under orders are resolved.
I like that idea.
This could be a problem if there are Sith council members.
Which is a safe bet. It's hard to know if it would be as rigid at the 2-4-4 split people suggested earlier, because that might make it very easy to find mafia, so I guess maybe SOME randomness would exist, but not too much.
The problem is that you're basically leveraging the Sith. Instead of having 10 or so, we're going to have 10 plus whatever dupes the sith masters order around.
I think people should act by themselves. A public plan helps the Sith more, I think. They know exactly who everyone is, so if orders are public, they (probably) have actions that can directly counteract most of that.
If people want to form small soft networks and try to confirm within them, that's fine, but they shouldn't be predetermined, is my point.
0
Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
Feel free to waste a day killing a Knight.
I have no real way of proving myself since all of the abilities have been posted, though.
I didn't know that changing plans based on people coming up with better ideas than you was a crime, but oh well!
8->
That's all well and good, except it's not really what happened. When you suggested looking at the council, people were agreeing with you. And then you went and said "there's more group, we should do the padawans" And then you stopped saying anything, until you showed up with some math on the group that I'd already posted.
Just seems a little mafia-ish to me
You are completely entitled to your opinion.
I've been posting as much as I can at work, so things may have been a bit sporadic
People agreed with looking at the council, yes. Thing is, if we are doing our own thing and not listening to the council at the moment, as seems to be the case, then knowing who is sith on the council is a bit of a moot point, as we can't do anything to get rid of them. If we can seer our padawans/other knights, we can actually unveil infiltrated folks that we CAN kill off.
Someone posted something saying that odds are that every group would have a sith in it, and I was trying to correct them by listing the other possibilities.
So I was thinking about this. If we can't vote the Council members out, it's safe to assume that the Council members in right now are not Sith.
I would not assume that Grunt, I would more assume that there are other powers which will remove us from our station. We're just as suspect as the rest of the Order. However, we're an obvious target for "extracurricular activities" as well.
"Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
Hail Hydra
0
CayrusConsulFriends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears!Registered Userregular
Why don't we elect a Grand Master and let one person run the show? All this squabbling annoys me.
Well, if we can't take out Council members with votes, does that mean that someone has to go Anakin and kill Council members? That seems a bit Dark Side today.
0
Shiny New Toyswhere am i?its dark in hereRegistered Userregular
I think that it's important to have at least some kind of coordinated plan across the full player base since there is so much interaction between everybody's abilities. Perhaps the plan we've got right now isn't the best, but it is a plan that involves everyone and has some potential. At the very least, it is creating discussion - so if a better plan comes out, then we can implement it.
0
CayrusConsulFriends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears!Registered Userregular
Shiny New Toyswhere am i?its dark in hereRegistered Userregular
edited May 2012
So do we have a consensus on plan A (Matev's plan targets unknown) or plan B (Smooth's plan targets the council)?
I don't really care which or even if we rip up these plans and go with plan C - (dancing anyone?) but my time zone difference means I'm going to have to be inactive for about 6 hours while I sleep :P I should have time to put in orders and a vote when I wake up but I would like provisional in place so the dreaded Doth Inactivus doesn't get me.
I think people should act by themselves. A public plan helps the Sith more, I think. They know exactly who everyone is, so if orders are public, they (probably) have actions that can directly counteract most of that.
If people want to form small soft networks and try to confirm within them, that's fine, but they shouldn't be predetermined, is my point.
Disorganization marginalizes the village. Establishing a plan of attack means that we can more easily identify outliers, and correspondingly, those who are acting against the interest of the village.
Self-organization allows the mafia to take control. It's the exact opposite of what we should be working towards.
I guess I mostly mean as far as targets. Like I said, I find it highly unlikely that the Sith do not have countermeasures for the seer. If they know they're being seered, they can easily protect, and we either accept their alignment, and get infiltrated, or dont trust our results, so we wasted a day.
I'd also wager they have some way of screwing with Jedi missions if they know where they are headed.
Publicly known (or even council-known) assignments are bad.
You want to get the council involved? Assign each council member to two Knight/Padawan pairings. Have the 5 of them discuss actions together but not reveal it to the rest of the thread/council under orders are resolved.
That's a great idea. Does anyone know of something like Invisible Castle or Orokos that does (public, traceable) sequence generation?
How about... Orokos? :P
Look at the bit on combinatorials.
20p20 is 1 through 20 in random order, etc.
0
Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
When I die and come up green tonight, it may be a good idea to check out my padawan. Reading back on his past messages, I feel that he is not who I thought he was.
Still catching up, but I find it pretty funny that people are putting this much faith in a seer ability that is apparently possessed by 40% of the playerbase.
Gotta think on plans yet but still too many meetings today.
Posts
I'm going to continue saying that trying to find the Sith in the council at this point is a bad idea, however we go about it. We can be sure they will be protected plenty of ways tonight.
Also, since the non-Sith members of the council have a fairly short life expectancy at this point, I think whichever original is still alive on the council a few days from now will some 'splainin to do...
You really think someone is going to guess the proboards link (or search for it through proboards directory listing or whatever), register as a fake name or pose as someone else, day 1 or 2?
They would almost have to be. If its a "Council Secret" as to who is in which group, then its really a Council + Sith secret. So the only people being left out are the village at large.
My spreadsheet linked before lays out one way to simply assign 2 knights per council member.
_____________________________________________
HoTS: Schmutz#1686
Henri Emmanuel Gratien St Pierre in Where No Man Has Gone Before
Lord Augustus Cumberbatch in Eclipse Phase
With the Sith on the council, there shouldn't be any difference between the two at the moment. We can assume anything the council as a whole knows, they know. At this point, I think they are totally compromised and our focus shouldn't be on the old men, but on the working men on the ground. #OccupyCoruscant
I really like this in theory, but I'm not sure on the math. Assuming 10 Sith, that means EVERY group would be likely to have at least one. That still give them all the information to thwart what we are trying to accomplish. Before we group up, I think we need a little more information about who is on our side. I still think scanning our padawans and seeing who's accusing who (and who isn't) tomorrow gives us the best chance to work together in non-compromised groups. If some of us want to get started on taking planets tonight, that's fine as well, but I think our focus should be on clearing as many teams as we can.
Basically, just assign numbers 1-20 to Knights and 1-10 to Council, and roll 10#2d20 on Orokos, then replace all the duplicate numbers with unrolled numbers.
_____________________________________________
HoTS: Schmutz#1686
I think I remember in the phallakinetic finale that a search for Primaphorior led to our proboards quite easily
This could be a problem if there are Sith council members.
Work.
I don't expect it to be a role call, I'm sure ObiFett added in a few things (such as uncertainty or 'cover') to make up for it. If we simply let everyone do his/her thing without any overseeing control, people can claim what they want and mafia can hide where they want.
Quoted for truth! I put down a semi-joke vote on The Road Virus last night, but I think he's been acting VERY mafia-ish. He was very quick to post while PMs were still going out, has managed to suggest that we both meditate on the council AND meditate on padawans within five posts without providing a good rationale for either, AND he's maanged to go through this whole discussion without adding anything when we got serious.
I know I'm kinda new, but can we get this bandwagon rolling?
That isn't how probability works. We'd proably get 6-8 groups with 1-2 members, and a few groups with no mafia.
I've always thought clearing padawans/small jedi teams, and working from there seems best, because the ones that can prove trustworthy to each other can work well. Lots of mini networks would be hard to infiltrate.
However, it invariably comes down to
If 40% of the game has an alignment seer, then the Sith have a way of counteracting it. Maybe the Sith powers are very similar to the Jedi, but with the addition of "Hide Alignment + <something else>" so they can either choose to block seer attempts, or risk being discovered, but maybe get a vig or something (unlikely quite that powerful, but whatever).
I have no real way of proving myself since all of the abilities have been posted, though.
I didn't know that changing plans based on people coming up with better ideas than you was a crime, but oh well!
8->
Henri Emmanuel Gratien St Pierre in Where No Man Has Gone Before
Lord Augustus Cumberbatch in Eclipse Phase
That's all well and good, except it's not really what happened. When you suggested looking at the council, people were agreeing with you. And then you went and said "there's more group, we should do the padawans" And then you stopped saying anything, until you showed up with some math on the group that I'd already posted.
Just seems a little mafia-ish to me
Hey Grunt's, take a look back at the last page. I think we're all in pretty good agreement that there is at least one (and probably two) Sith on the council at the moment.
There are some mechanics in the council which are designed for mafia to take advantage of (such as the successor lists being public rather than private)
Which is a safe bet. It's hard to know if it would be as rigid at the 2-4-4 split people suggested earlier, because that might make it very easy to find mafia, so I guess maybe SOME randomness would exist, but not too much.
The problem is that you're basically leveraging the Sith. Instead of having 10 or so, we're going to have 10 plus whatever dupes the sith masters order around.
I'll put them in spoilers here, for those who don't want to check the spreadsheet (editing):
Kias: Segatai & Pablo
Alegis: Cythraul & Feckless
Matev: Infidel & TRV
Warban: JABMonkey & mascara
MrBlarney: Akimbo & DaveFella
Anialos: Tzeentch & INANTP
CapFalcon: 38thDoe & Assuran
Smoove: REG Rysk & T_A
KetBra: MrT & ShinyNewToys
Padawans, find your knights.
_____________________________________________
HoTS: Schmutz#1686
I think people should act by themselves. A public plan helps the Sith more, I think. They know exactly who everyone is, so if orders are public, they (probably) have actions that can directly counteract most of that.
If people want to form small soft networks and try to confirm within them, that's fine, but they shouldn't be predetermined, is my point.
You are completely entitled to your opinion.
I've been posting as much as I can at work, so things may have been a bit sporadic
People agreed with looking at the council, yes. Thing is, if we are doing our own thing and not listening to the council at the moment, as seems to be the case, then knowing who is sith on the council is a bit of a moot point, as we can't do anything to get rid of them. If we can seer our padawans/other knights, we can actually unveil infiltrated folks that we CAN kill off.
Someone posted something saying that odds are that every group would have a sith in it, and I was trying to correct them by listing the other possibilities.
I would not assume that Grunt, I would more assume that there are other powers which will remove us from our station. We're just as suspect as the rest of the Order. However, we're an obvious target for "extracurricular activities" as well.
Henri Emmanuel Gratien St Pierre in Where No Man Has Gone Before
Lord Augustus Cumberbatch in Eclipse Phase
Don't you get promoted if TRV dies?
I think that it's important to have at least some kind of coordinated plan across the full player base since there is so much interaction between everybody's abilities. Perhaps the plan we've got right now isn't the best, but it is a plan that involves everyone and has some potential. At the very least, it is creating discussion - so if a better plan comes out, then we can implement it.
Yeah, but I'd feel weird voting for my Master just so I could get promoted.
Henri Emmanuel Gratien St Pierre in Where No Man Has Gone Before
Lord Augustus Cumberbatch in Eclipse Phase
I don't really care which or even if we rip up these plans and go with plan C - (dancing anyone?) but my time zone difference means I'm going to have to be inactive for about 6 hours while I sleep :P I should have time to put in orders and a vote when I wake up but I would like provisional in place so the dreaded Doth Inactivus doesn't get me.
I guess I mostly mean as far as targets. Like I said, I find it highly unlikely that the Sith do not have countermeasures for the seer. If they know they're being seered, they can easily protect, and we either accept their alignment, and get infiltrated, or dont trust our results, so we wasted a day.
I'd also wager they have some way of screwing with Jedi missions if they know where they are headed.
How about... Orokos? :P
Look at the bit on combinatorials.
20p20 is 1 through 20 in random order, etc.
Gotta think on plans yet but still too many meetings today.