I'm going to throw my vote in with the "it wasn't contrived" crowd. Catelyn makes some pretty dumbass decisions based on emotions throughout the show, this just being the latest example. I don't think that makes it contrived, it just makes her an idiot when it comes to family.
They never really establish a few things though that lead me to believe there's more to it.
1) cat never mentions to rob that Brienne is with him/he's still in chains/confirms anything really beyond that it was better to have him alive. Camp just thinks he's gone heading home.
2) No one ever confirms that he's actually going to king's landing. He mentions it but Brienne never responds to that comment.
Like, battle's and all next episode, but you could pretty much skip this one and you would have literally missed nothing.
They've got to stop jumping around all over the place with the disconnected storylines. 1 minute of beyond the wall, or of Carth or wherever, just doesn't work, and being stuck with the endless "people talking over tables" (who are not Arya or Tywin) is starting to grate.
I'm going to throw my vote in with the "it wasn't contrived" crowd. Catelyn makes some pretty dumbass decisions based on emotions throughout the show, this just being the latest example. I don't think that makes it contrived, it just makes her an idiot when it comes to family.
Yeah, it's the same problem as all her other "retard moment" actions, she's going along being a sound political advisor who understands cost and benefit and dances the complicated dance of diplomacy then SUDDENLY she has a fatal exception error and drags Tyrion off to The Eyrie or sets Jaime Lannister free or whatever else could be worst in the game. Honestly she's lucky Robb didn't have her killed, she betrayed an alliance that is repeatedly hammered away at as shaky and uncertain. All it would have taken was one or two lords saying, "kill her or I'll kill her myself" and either Robb would have to kill her or shatter the alliance by killing them.
I don't think matricide would be on the table at any point. That's a bit far fetched.
Also after rewatching season one they play up the concerned mother making mistakes that she thinks will benefit her family angle a bit more than a lot of us may have realized on first viewing.
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WarcryI'm getting my shit pushed in here!AustraliaRegistered Userregular
I thought that was a fantastic episode. Very much the calm before the storm, no really horrible shit went down to spoil the uplifting mood of some scenes and the locations and cinematography were truly great. Then next episode, we see the first proper large scale war in the show. I fucking love this series.
Like, battle's and all next episode, but you could pretty much skip this one and you would have literally missed nothing.
They've got to stop jumping around all over the place with the disconnected storylines. 1 minute of beyond the wall, or of Carth or wherever, just doesn't work, and being stuck with the endless "people talking over tables" (who are not Arya or Tywin) is starting to grate.
"Talking over tables" is a staple of all television.
Also human interaction.
And things did, in fact, happen.
We found out that Qhorin Halfhand was captured and the other rangers killed.
A man helped a girl escape a castle.
Cersei nabbed the wrong whore (and all the Ros storyline haters can suck it, she's relevant!) to hurt Tyrion, and Tyrion let her think that she succeeded. Don't think that the "Joffrey's pain is your whore's pain" thing isn't going to become relevant.
Tyrion expressed something distressingly like love for Shae, which he really hadn't done before.
Sam found obsidian weapons left by Night's Watch a long time ago. They called it "dragonglass." Dragon. Glass. Don't tell me that's not significant, not when there are actual dragons on the show.
We found out the best backstory to date on Davos the Onion Knight.
Robb had his own mother arrested for letting their one bargaining chip with the Lannisters leave the camp.
Robb went all "Helllloooo Nurse!" and probably just really fucked up his relationship with Walder Frey and His Ugly Daughter And Their Huge Important Bridge.
Was most of the episode transitional lead-in to the huge motherfucker of a finale? Yeah. Does that mean that nothing happened? No way.
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
I AM curious about why Ros had a Lannister Lion necklace.
Did Varys cover up Shae's existence for Tyrion?
Did she have it from when Tyrion slept with her back in season 1?
Who is forcing her to play along with this current game, and what is her angle to cover for Tyrion? Ros is firmly in Littlefinger's pocket, but he doesn't seem to be local right now; if he was, I could see him doing such a thing so that he could get a favor out of Tyrion later... but does he even know about Shae?
That is a HUGE open question that was laid out last night.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I AM curious about why Ros had a Lannister Lion necklace.
Did Varys cover up Shae's existence for Tyrion?
Did she have it from when Tyrion slept with her back in season 1?
Who is forcing her to play along with this current game, and what is her angle to cover for Tyrion? Ros is firmly in Littlefinger's pocket, but he doesn't seem to be local right now; if he was, I could see him doing such a thing so that he could get a favor out of Tyrion later... but does he even know about Shae?
That is a HUGE open question that was laid out last night.
I'm pretty sure Tyrion gave the necklace to Ros in the first or second episode of the first season, when they were all visiting Winterfell.
I AM curious about why Ros had a Lannister Lion necklace.
Did Varys cover up Shae's existence for Tyrion?
Did she have it from when Tyrion slept with her back in season 1?
Who is forcing her to play along with this current game, and what is her angle to cover for Tyrion? Ros is firmly in Littlefinger's pocket, but he doesn't seem to be local right now; if he was, I could see him doing such a thing so that he could get a favor out of Tyrion later... but does he even know about Shae?
That is a HUGE open question that was laid out last night.
When Theon is with her, he asks her about Tyrion, and the necklace is noted along with Tyrion being a "generous tipper".
Varys is either helping Tyrion (because Tyrion is currently good for "the realm") or isn't actively screwing him over (otherwise Cercei would have Shae instead of Ros right now).
Littlefinger... hard to say what he knows. Guy is not easy to pin down.
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
I AM curious about why Ros had a Lannister Lion necklace.
Did Varys cover up Shae's existence for Tyrion?
Did she have it from when Tyrion slept with her back in season 1?
Who is forcing her to play along with this current game, and what is her angle to cover for Tyrion? Ros is firmly in Littlefinger's pocket, but he doesn't seem to be local right now; if he was, I could see him doing such a thing so that he could get a favor out of Tyrion later... but does he even know about Shae?
That is a HUGE open question that was laid out last night.
I'm pretty sure Tyrion gave the necklace to Ros in the first or second episode of the first season, when they were all visiting Winterfell.
Okay, so he paid her with a necklace back in Winterfell; that part makes sense. I think I remember Theon (THE WORST of his name) being jealous of Tyrion with Ros in one of their sex scenes... necklace may have been mentioned there.
But why in the hell is she covering for Tyrion right now? THAT is the next part of the question that needs a little more explanation. Someone (Varys or Littlefinger) has to be playing this situation to their advantage, by making Tyrion indebted to them.
edit: so she thinks she will get paid for taking a horrible beating and being a prisoner of Cersei, the mother of the child who had her possibly permanently scar / murder a whore with a club?
Something's off.
syndalis on
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I AM curious about why Ros had a Lannister Lion necklace.
Did Varys cover up Shae's existence for Tyrion?
Did she have it from when Tyrion slept with her back in season 1?
Who is forcing her to play along with this current game, and what is her angle to cover for Tyrion? Ros is firmly in Littlefinger's pocket, but he doesn't seem to be local right now; if he was, I could see him doing such a thing so that he could get a favor out of Tyrion later... but does he even know about Shae?
That is a HUGE open question that was laid out last night.
I'm pretty sure Tyrion gave the necklace to Ros in the first or second episode of the first season, when they were all visiting Winterfell.
Not sure when she gets it, but Theon comments on it after Tyrion leaves Winterfell heading south.
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KoopahTroopahThe koopas, the troopas.Philadelphia, PARegistered Userregular
New thread time. Someone's gotta head that up.
I liked the episode. I thought it was engaging and well thought out as opposed to other ones this season. However, the preview for next episode has me really really hopeful. I want like Helm's Deep or Braveheart action going on for at least 30 minutes.
I AM curious about why Ros had a Lannister Lion necklace.
Did Varys cover up Shae's existence for Tyrion?
Did she have it from when Tyrion slept with her back in season 1?
Who is forcing her to play along with this current game, and what is her angle to cover for Tyrion? Ros is firmly in Littlefinger's pocket, but he doesn't seem to be local right now; if he was, I could see him doing such a thing so that he could get a favor out of Tyrion later... but does he even know about Shae?
That is a HUGE open question that was laid out last night.
I'm pretty sure Tyrion gave the necklace to Ros in the first or second episode of the first season, when they were all visiting Winterfell.
Okay, so he paid her with a necklace back in Winterfell; that part makes sense. I think I remember Theon (THE WORST of his name) being jealous of Tyrion with Ros in one of their sex scenes... necklace may have been mentioned there.
But why in the hell is she covering for Tyrion right now? THAT is the next part of the question that needs a little more explanation. Someone (Varys or Littlefinger) has to be playing this situation to their advantage, by making Tyrion indebted to them.
edit: so she thinks she will get paid for taking a horrible beating and being a prisoner of Cersei, the mother of the child who had her possibly permanently scar / murder a whore with a club?
Something's off.
How is it off? He was a generous patron of her's, this is true fact. He did give her a nice necklace. This is also true fact.
Now, there are mean people hurting Ros because of these true facts; they don't believe her when she says she was only with Tyrion once or twice. Why would they? She obviously came down to King's Landing from Winterfell after hooking up with him. So they hurt her. They threaten to murder her. Then they bring her in front of the nice former patron, who immediately promises to help her get free. Is she suddenly going to say "I don't even know this asshole!"?
I don't think she is thinking about anything but surviving at this point. Ros is a believable character. She's not plotting. She just wants to live.
I AM curious about why Ros had a Lannister Lion necklace.
Did Varys cover up Shae's existence for Tyrion?
Did she have it from when Tyrion slept with her back in season 1?
Who is forcing her to play along with this current game, and what is her angle to cover for Tyrion? Ros is firmly in Littlefinger's pocket, but he doesn't seem to be local right now; if he was, I could see him doing such a thing so that he could get a favor out of Tyrion later... but does he even know about Shae?
That is a HUGE open question that was laid out last night.
I'm pretty sure Tyrion gave the necklace to Ros in the first or second episode of the first season, when they were all visiting Winterfell.
Okay, so he paid her with a necklace back in Winterfell; that part makes sense. I think I remember Theon (THE WORST of his name) being jealous of Tyrion with Ros in one of their sex scenes... necklace may have been mentioned there.
But why in the hell is she covering for Tyrion right now? THAT is the next part of the question that needs a little more explanation. Someone (Varys or Littlefinger) has to be playing this situation to their advantage, by making Tyrion indebted to them.
edit: so she thinks she will get paid for taking a horrible beating and being a prisoner of Cersei, the mother of the child who had her possibly permanently scar / murder a whore with a club?
Something's off.
How is it off? He was a generous patron of her's, this is true fact. He did give her a nice necklace. This is also true fact.
Now, there are mean people hurting Ros because of these true facts; they don't believe her when she says she was only with Tyrion once or twice. Why would they? She obviously came down to King's Landing from Winterfell after hooking up with him. So they hurt her. They threaten to murder her. Then they bring her in front of the nice former patron, who immediately promises to help her get free. Is she suddenly going to say "I don't even know this asshole!"?
I don't think she is thinking about anything but surviving at this point. Ros is a believable character. She's not plotting. She just wants to live.
Not only that, but as far as Ros knows ,Tyrion is her only hope of getting out of this thing alive. She's seen what Joffrey does, she's seen what Cersei does, and she knows that if they find out she's worthless she will die. Tyrion has always been nice to her AND all the other girls, if she has to trust someone it better be him.
i feel like i missed a point in the show where it became ok for cersei and jamie to admit to their relationship?
I realize they where both isolated incidents, one of them was in family confidence and the other was probably just playing up the rumors about himself., but still, it seems like there was a sudden shift from we have to hide this to "what the hell, it can't get any worse." maybe that's just it.
i feel like i missed a point in the show where it became ok for cersei and jamie to admit to their relationship?
I realize they where both isolated incidents, one of them was in family confidence and the other was probably just playing up the rumors about himself., but still, it seems like there was a sudden shift from we have to hide this to "what the hell, it can't get any worse." maybe that's just it.
The rumor is WAAAAY out there right now thanks to Stannis. And Tyrion has known and picked on her for it as early back as season 1 (she wouldn't have sex with HIM was part of the joke, as I recall).
Littlefinger played a risky game confronting her about it in the courtyard, but even if everyione knows the rumor (they do), nobody aside from people with extreme power is going to be so brash as to tell the queen regent that shit to her face, and they have handled it as such very well I think.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
i feel like i missed a point in the show where it became ok for cersei and jamie to admit to their relationship?
I realize they where both isolated incidents, one of them was in family confidence and the other was probably just playing up the rumors about himself., but still, it seems like there was a sudden shift from we have to hide this to "what the hell, it can't get any worse." maybe that's just it.
Stannis sent that letter to every corner of the realm. Word has gradually gotten out and people have started openly taunting Jaime and Cersei about it. That's the impression I get anyway. If people actually LIKED the Lannisters I doubt it would be so readily accepted, but Jaime is reviled by everyone but his own family and just about everybody hates Cersei and Joffrey.
i feel like i missed a point in the show where it became ok for cersei and jamie to admit to their relationship?
I realize they where both isolated incidents, one of them was in family confidence and the other was probably just playing up the rumors about himself., but still, it seems like there was a sudden shift from we have to hide this to "what the hell, it can't get any worse." maybe that's just it.
There's also the Targaryan thing. For 300 years, the kings and queens of Westeros were largely incestuous. Of course, they also seemingly had a high rate of Crazy and Magic Powers.
After a certain point, C&J can just bank on everyone knowing the rumor, and everyone also remembering that, incest or not, the Lannisters are major players that currently hold the Iron Throne.
...drags Tyrion off to The Eyrie or sets Jaime Lannister free or whatever else could be worst in the game.
Let's his the Pause button for a moment and really investigate this and figure out the cost-benefit.
Fact #1: Jaime Lannister had just killed one of the Karstark men -- on top of being hated by the whole realm for being a Kingslayer -- and an entire camp was clamoring for his head. Fact #2: The men were seen getting more and more drunk, and at least in the assessment of Brienne and Jaime himself (and tacitly, that of Catelyn) he wouldn't have made it through the night. Fact #3: We've seen that while Catelyn wields considerable respect and authority as the widow of a man everyone in camp loved like a brother, and as the mother of a man they also ostensibly love and follow now... that authority only goes so far. The Karstark patriarch backed off earlier in the day, but remained obstinate and openly insubordinate in his insistence on getting vengeance/justice for the murder of his son. Catelyn's motives are also being openly questioned as being overly sentimental by her own camp. Fact #4: The only person who may have been able to hold an entire camp of bloodthirsty soldiers -- and others who while less bloodthirsty are unwilling to "die defending a Lannister" -- at bay is off accepting a surrender.
Based on these facts, we can reasonably conclude that Jaime Lannister would not indeed have lived through the night had Catelyn not intervened.
So what are her options at this point? If she doesn't "release" Jaime (read: place him in the custody of her most trusted knight to be delivered to King's Landing), what else can she do that doesn't end in him being subject to mob justice?
Option #1: Hide him someplace near camp through the night
This solves the problem momentarily, but what about the next night? And the night after that? The tension is already thick and will only get worse until someone snaps.
Option #2: Send word to Robb and have him race back to camp to protect Jaime
Even assuming Robb can make it back in time -- which he can't and shouldn't, because he's off on an important diplomatic mission -- what happens after? Robb can't babysit Jaime 24/7. What about the optics of a "King in the North" who can't even control his own men?
Option #3: Catelyn stands outside Jaime's cell through the night and every night hence
The men were getting more and more drunk. It's not hard to imagine one getting drunk enough to make the extremely poor decision to force his way past Catelyn, giving Brienne no choice but to engage them. As soon as this freakish foreign woman takes up arms, the entire camp likely comes down on her, killing her and Jaime and leaving Catelyn at the mercy of a drunken, resentful mob. Even if no harm actually comes to Catelyn, the event will be traumatic enough to potentially tear Robb's host apart.
Option #4: Sneak Jaime away to some loyal holdfast or out-of-the-way hiding place
Robb's already commented that he can't trust his bannermen not to surrender Jaime to the Lannisters of their own volition. Anyone in some podunk corner of the Seven Kingdoms will recognize the Kingslayer and rat them all out.
Conclusion
While what Catelyn did could be interpreted as an 'lol dumb soccer mom' moment, I don't see how it's at all an irrational choice. She weighed the options (presumably she had several hours to think it over -- this was not a split-second decision) and decided that getting Jaime out of the camp was the best course of action. True, she cares about her children and immediate family more than basically anything in the Seven Kingdoms, she's also not new to The Game, and understands that everything has a consequence.
yeah I agree with this. they weren't even trying to hide the fact that jamie would be straight up dead by the morning. And clearly Cat has some sort of plan (that she withheld from rob) for him based on a later scene.
There's also the Targaryan thing. For 300 years, the kings and queens of Westeros were largely incestuous. Of course, they also seemingly had a high rate of Crazy and Magic Powers.
This is a fascinating tangent of the show for me.
Jaime and Cersei are clearly attracted to each other on their own merits, but they also justify the whole thing in their "moments of doubt" by remembering that this is what the Targaryens did. Basically, they are seeking to emulate what was for the last 300 years the most powerful dynasty in all of Westeros -- a dynasty that transcended mere political power by virtue of their command of dragons and of other ostensibly supernatural powers. Jaime and Cersei are implicitly (or maybe explicitly) concluding that because the Targaryens gambled with potential madness for the chance to preserve their superior lineage, that it was okay for Lannisters to do it too.
Thing is, the Lannisters don't seem to be a particularly special line. Sure, Jaime is one of the best swordsman in the realm, and Cersei has, uh, high cheekbones. They might be above-average, but it doesn't quite compare to walking through fire or Fucking Dragons. What it comes down to, really, is Jaime and Cersei's own inflated self-image.
Option #5: Hide him till Robb gets back and hand Kingslayer back over to Robb and let Robb deal with the Karstarks, maybe involving his wolf and/or the Great Jon?
Option #5: Hide him till Robb gets back and hand Kingslayer back over to Robb and let Robb deal with the Karstarks, maybe involving his wolf and/or the Great Jon?
What does that look like, though? Robb is now for all intents and purposes intimidating his own bannermen -- people who have fought and died for his claim, and who will continue to fight and die in the near future -- in defense of what they perceive as their mortal enemy. It's become clear at this point that only the nobility really plays The Game, and that everyone else in this system are pawns / cannon fodder on the board. Robb might understand Jaime's inherent value as a bargaining chip, but that doesn't mean all of his bannermen and all of their subordinates do. They understand that this guy broke his oath and murdered the second-to-last legitimate king, and that he also just choked to death the son of one of their northern brothers.
Robb's entire claim to being King in the North is staked on the fervor and devotion he can engender from his followers. As Varys has eloquently pointed out before, a king (or any authority figure) really only has as much legitimacy as people are willing to give him.
Option #5: Hide him till Robb gets back and hand Kingslayer back over to Robb and let Robb deal with the Karstarks, maybe involving his wolf and/or the Great Jon?
What does that look like, though? Robb is now for all intents and purposes intimidating his own bannermen -- people who have fought and died for his claim, and who will continue to fight and die in the near future -- in defense of what they perceive as their mortal enemy. It's become clear at this point that only the nobility really plays The Game, and that everyone else in this system are pawns / cannon fodder on the board. Robb might understand Jaime's inherent value as a bargaining chip, but that doesn't mean all of his bannermen and all of their subordinates do. They understand that this guy broke his oath and murdered the second-to-last legitimate king, and that he also just choked to death the son of one of their northern brothers.
Robb's entire claim to being King in the North is staked on the fervor and devotion he can engender from his followers. As Varys has eloquently pointed out before, a king (or any authority figure) really only has as much legitimacy as people are willing to give him.
Edit: And Robb's Dire Wolf was something of a pup for that scene compared to where it is at now. In a land without Dragons (yet), a Dire Wolf might display a bit of awesome for that fervor and devotion.
If she yells that she's not Tyrion's whore who would believe her? Nobody.
If she plays along, then Tyrion would be grateful to her and try to help her. If she doesn't, then Cersei still tortures her and Tyrion would have no reason to try to rescue her.
So she either plays along so she's being tortured but have a potential ally. Or she doesn't play along where she will still be tortured but now nobody cares.
maybe she doesn't know that she's not tyrion's whore. I mean, there's no way the queen told her all the details. She probably only knows that she's been taken because she was whoring for Tyrion at one point briefly last season.
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Where is the god of tits and wine?
I hope Theon's part in all this ends up being relevant. I'd hate for it all to mean nothing, for him to just stay chillin' in Winterfell while shit goes down, waiting til Season 3.
A bit ambiguous. It was odd Cersei brought him up. Suggesting the possibility he did in fact help cover it up or simply just didn't have the weakness of getting attached to women despite being part of the game.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
I don't even get why they're fighting.
Joffrey's a lil bitch. He has no place in the fight.
Tyrion's got shit to do preparing for the city's defense. Why try to divert his attention?
There's also the Targaryan thing. For 300 years, the kings and queens of Westeros were largely incestuous. Of course, they also seemingly had a high rate of Crazy and Magic Powers.
This is a fascinating tangent of the show for me.
Jaime and Cersei are clearly attracted to each other on their own merits, but they also justify the whole thing in their "moments of doubt" by remembering that this is what the Targaryens did. Basically, they are seeking to emulate what was for the last 300 years the most powerful dynasty in all of Westeros -- a dynasty that transcended mere political power by virtue of their command of dragons and of other ostensibly supernatural powers. Jaime and Cersei are implicitly (or maybe explicitly) concluding that because the Targaryens gambled with potential madness for the chance to preserve their superior lineage, that it was okay for Lannisters to do it too.
Just a clarification, since several people have mentioned it: The Targaryens were not wizards. Some of them thought they were wizards, but those guys were crazy. Magic has been all but dead in Westeros (and largely in Essos as well) since the decline of the Children of the Forest and the Doom of Valyria, respectively. Targaryen conquest was based on dragons and Targaryen dominion was based on political connections stemming from having a gigantic fucking family that married younger royals to noble houses and such, as well as putting younger royals in various positions of influence (maesters, for example.)
Option #5: Hide him till Robb gets back and hand Kingslayer back over to Robb and let Robb deal with the Karstarks, maybe involving his wolf and/or the Great Jon?
What does that look like, though? Robb is now for all intents and purposes intimidating his own bannermen -- people who have fought and died for his claim, and who will continue to fight and die in the near future -- in defense of what they perceive as their mortal enemy. It's become clear at this point that only the nobility really plays The Game, and that everyone else in this system are pawns / cannon fodder on the board. Robb might understand Jaime's inherent value as a bargaining chip, but that doesn't mean all of his bannermen and all of their subordinates do. They understand that this guy broke his oath and murdered the second-to-last legitimate king, and that he also just choked to death the son of one of their northern brothers.
Robb's entire claim to being King in the North is staked on the fervor and devotion he can engender from his followers. As Varys has eloquently pointed out before, a king (or any authority figure) really only has as much legitimacy as people are willing to give him.
-snip-
Edit: And Robb's Dire Wolf was something of a pup for that scene compared to where it is at now. In a land without Dragons (yet), a Dire Wolf might display a bit of awesome for that fervor and devotion.
Beyond simply 'Robb uses his direwolf / doesn't stop it from attacking,' that scene has nothing to do with the situation we're talking about. Just watching the scene, you can tell that everyone in the room felt that Greatjon was going too far, and it became a test of Robb's authority. In this case, Robb doesn't have the unanimous sympathy or agreement of his entire host -- most would love to see the Kingslayer ripped apart, or at least hanged. There's also the peculiarity of that particular battle of wills -- namely, that the Greatjon is fucking weird.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
Also, if they're convinced Stannis is hitting the Muddgate, why the fuck don't they have stonemasons reinforcing it Bugs Bunny Style?
There's also the Targaryan thing. For 300 years, the kings and queens of Westeros were largely incestuous. Of course, they also seemingly had a high rate of Crazy and Magic Powers.
This is a fascinating tangent of the show for me.
Jaime and Cersei are clearly attracted to each other on their own merits, but they also justify the whole thing in their "moments of doubt" by remembering that this is what the Targaryens did. Basically, they are seeking to emulate what was for the last 300 years the most powerful dynasty in all of Westeros -- a dynasty that transcended mere political power by virtue of their command of dragons and of other ostensibly supernatural powers. Jaime and Cersei are implicitly (or maybe explicitly) concluding that because the Targaryens gambled with potential madness for the chance to preserve their superior lineage, that it was okay for Lannisters to do it too.
Just a clarification, since several people have mentioned it: The Targaryens were not wizards. Some of them thought they were wizards, but those guys were crazy. Magic has been all but dead in Westeros (and largely in Essos as well) since the decline of the Children of the Forest and the Doom of Valyria, respectively. Targaryen conquest was based on dragons and Targaryen dominion was based on political connections stemming from having a gigantic fucking family that married younger royals to noble houses and such, as well as putting younger royals in various positions of influence (maesters, for example.)
I've read the books too, but pointing out a response to this post based on them would get me more ugly looks.
But just in the context of the HBO series, it's clear there is some supernatural dimension to the Targaryen lineage.
Presumably there isn't enough time / manpower to turn Mud Gate into Reinforced Concrete Gate. We saw how many men were toiling away preparing the city for Siege Mode.
why is cersei so god damned obsessed with having her only daughter trapped in a besieged castle!!!
Pretty certain this is all in show background on HBO's site/DVDs, and has been alluded to in the series, but history circa Robert's Rebellion:
Tyrion sent Myrcella to House Martell, of Dorne. Rhaegar Targaryen was married to Ellia Martell, sister of Doran Martell, the current Prince of Dorne. Ellia and her children were murdered during the Sack of King's Landing to extinguish the Targaryen line, rather more brutally than necessary (Ellia need not have been killed at all.) Lannister bannermen were responsible for their deaths, and although Doran has some idea of who was responsible - there have been rumors - he has no proof. Relations between Dorne and Casterly Rock are therefore somewhat strained, and Cersei fears that Doran may make some kind of power play with Myrcella as a hostage.
Additionally, Cersei probably resents her child being sold into a political marriage. Cersei's political marriage wasn't exactly kittens and rainbows, after all.
Posts
1) cat never mentions to rob that Brienne is with him/he's still in chains/confirms anything really beyond that it was better to have him alive. Camp just thinks he's gone heading home.
2) No one ever confirms that he's actually going to king's landing. He mentions it but Brienne never responds to that comment.
Like, battle's and all next episode, but you could pretty much skip this one and you would have literally missed nothing.
They've got to stop jumping around all over the place with the disconnected storylines. 1 minute of beyond the wall, or of Carth or wherever, just doesn't work, and being stuck with the endless "people talking over tables" (who are not Arya or Tywin) is starting to grate.
Yeah, it's the same problem as all her other "retard moment" actions, she's going along being a sound political advisor who understands cost and benefit and dances the complicated dance of diplomacy then SUDDENLY she has a fatal exception error and drags Tyrion off to The Eyrie or sets Jaime Lannister free or whatever else could be worst in the game. Honestly she's lucky Robb didn't have her killed, she betrayed an alliance that is repeatedly hammered away at as shaky and uncertain. All it would have taken was one or two lords saying, "kill her or I'll kill her myself" and either Robb would have to kill her or shatter the alliance by killing them.
Also after rewatching season one they play up the concerned mother making mistakes that she thinks will benefit her family angle a bit more than a lot of us may have realized on first viewing.
"Talking over tables" is a staple of all television.
Also human interaction.
And things did, in fact, happen.
A man helped a girl escape a castle.
Cersei nabbed the wrong whore (and all the Ros storyline haters can suck it, she's relevant!) to hurt Tyrion, and Tyrion let her think that she succeeded. Don't think that the "Joffrey's pain is your whore's pain" thing isn't going to become relevant.
Tyrion expressed something distressingly like love for Shae, which he really hadn't done before.
Sam found obsidian weapons left by Night's Watch a long time ago. They called it "dragonglass." Dragon. Glass. Don't tell me that's not significant, not when there are actual dragons on the show.
We found out the best backstory to date on Davos the Onion Knight.
Robb had his own mother arrested for letting their one bargaining chip with the Lannisters leave the camp.
Robb went all "Helllloooo Nurse!" and probably just really fucked up his relationship with Walder Frey and His Ugly Daughter And Their Huge Important Bridge.
Was most of the episode transitional lead-in to the huge motherfucker of a finale? Yeah. Does that mean that nothing happened? No way.
Did Varys cover up Shae's existence for Tyrion?
Did she have it from when Tyrion slept with her back in season 1?
Who is forcing her to play along with this current game, and what is her angle to cover for Tyrion? Ros is firmly in Littlefinger's pocket, but he doesn't seem to be local right now; if he was, I could see him doing such a thing so that he could get a favor out of Tyrion later... but does he even know about Shae?
That is a HUGE open question that was laid out last night.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I'm pretty sure Tyrion gave the necklace to Ros in the first or second episode of the first season, when they were all visiting Winterfell.
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When Theon is with her, he asks her about Tyrion, and the necklace is noted along with Tyrion being a "generous tipper".
Varys is either helping Tyrion (because Tyrion is currently good for "the realm") or isn't actively screwing him over (otherwise Cercei would have Shae instead of Ros right now).
Littlefinger... hard to say what he knows. Guy is not easy to pin down.
But why in the hell is she covering for Tyrion right now? THAT is the next part of the question that needs a little more explanation. Someone (Varys or Littlefinger) has to be playing this situation to their advantage, by making Tyrion indebted to them.
edit: so she thinks she will get paid for taking a horrible beating and being a prisoner of Cersei, the mother of the child who had her possibly permanently scar / murder a whore with a club?
Something's off.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Not sure when she gets it, but Theon comments on it after Tyrion leaves Winterfell heading south.
I liked the episode. I thought it was engaging and well thought out as opposed to other ones this season. However, the preview for next episode has me really really hopeful. I want like Helm's Deep or Braveheart action going on for at least 30 minutes.
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How is it off? He was a generous patron of her's, this is true fact. He did give her a nice necklace. This is also true fact.
Now, there are mean people hurting Ros because of these true facts; they don't believe her when she says she was only with Tyrion once or twice. Why would they? She obviously came down to King's Landing from Winterfell after hooking up with him. So they hurt her. They threaten to murder her. Then they bring her in front of the nice former patron, who immediately promises to help her get free. Is she suddenly going to say "I don't even know this asshole!"?
I don't think she is thinking about anything but surviving at this point. Ros is a believable character. She's not plotting. She just wants to live.
Not only that, but as far as Ros knows ,Tyrion is her only hope of getting out of this thing alive. She's seen what Joffrey does, she's seen what Cersei does, and she knows that if they find out she's worthless she will die. Tyrion has always been nice to her AND all the other girls, if she has to trust someone it better be him.
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I realize they where both isolated incidents, one of them was in family confidence and the other was probably just playing up the rumors about himself., but still, it seems like there was a sudden shift from we have to hide this to "what the hell, it can't get any worse." maybe that's just it.
The rumor is WAAAAY out there right now thanks to Stannis. And Tyrion has known and picked on her for it as early back as season 1 (she wouldn't have sex with HIM was part of the joke, as I recall).
Littlefinger played a risky game confronting her about it in the courtyard, but even if everyione knows the rumor (they do), nobody aside from people with extreme power is going to be so brash as to tell the queen regent that shit to her face, and they have handled it as such very well I think.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Stannis sent that letter to every corner of the realm. Word has gradually gotten out and people have started openly taunting Jaime and Cersei about it. That's the impression I get anyway. If people actually LIKED the Lannisters I doubt it would be so readily accepted, but Jaime is reviled by everyone but his own family and just about everybody hates Cersei and Joffrey.
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There's also the Targaryan thing. For 300 years, the kings and queens of Westeros were largely incestuous. Of course, they also seemingly had a high rate of Crazy and Magic Powers.
After a certain point, C&J can just bank on everyone knowing the rumor, and everyone also remembering that, incest or not, the Lannisters are major players that currently hold the Iron Throne.
Let's his the Pause button for a moment and really investigate this and figure out the cost-benefit.
Fact #1: Jaime Lannister had just killed one of the Karstark men -- on top of being hated by the whole realm for being a Kingslayer -- and an entire camp was clamoring for his head.
Fact #2: The men were seen getting more and more drunk, and at least in the assessment of Brienne and Jaime himself (and tacitly, that of Catelyn) he wouldn't have made it through the night.
Fact #3: We've seen that while Catelyn wields considerable respect and authority as the widow of a man everyone in camp loved like a brother, and as the mother of a man they also ostensibly love and follow now... that authority only goes so far. The Karstark patriarch backed off earlier in the day, but remained obstinate and openly insubordinate in his insistence on getting vengeance/justice for the murder of his son. Catelyn's motives are also being openly questioned as being overly sentimental by her own camp.
Fact #4: The only person who may have been able to hold an entire camp of bloodthirsty soldiers -- and others who while less bloodthirsty are unwilling to "die defending a Lannister" -- at bay is off accepting a surrender.
Based on these facts, we can reasonably conclude that Jaime Lannister would not indeed have lived through the night had Catelyn not intervened.
So what are her options at this point? If she doesn't "release" Jaime (read: place him in the custody of her most trusted knight to be delivered to King's Landing), what else can she do that doesn't end in him being subject to mob justice?
Option #1: Hide him someplace near camp through the night
This solves the problem momentarily, but what about the next night? And the night after that? The tension is already thick and will only get worse until someone snaps.
Option #2: Send word to Robb and have him race back to camp to protect Jaime
Even assuming Robb can make it back in time -- which he can't and shouldn't, because he's off on an important diplomatic mission -- what happens after? Robb can't babysit Jaime 24/7. What about the optics of a "King in the North" who can't even control his own men?
Option #3: Catelyn stands outside Jaime's cell through the night and every night hence
The men were getting more and more drunk. It's not hard to imagine one getting drunk enough to make the extremely poor decision to force his way past Catelyn, giving Brienne no choice but to engage them. As soon as this freakish foreign woman takes up arms, the entire camp likely comes down on her, killing her and Jaime and leaving Catelyn at the mercy of a drunken, resentful mob. Even if no harm actually comes to Catelyn, the event will be traumatic enough to potentially tear Robb's host apart.
Option #4: Sneak Jaime away to some loyal holdfast or out-of-the-way hiding place
Robb's already commented that he can't trust his bannermen not to surrender Jaime to the Lannisters of their own volition. Anyone in some podunk corner of the Seven Kingdoms will recognize the Kingslayer and rat them all out.
Conclusion
While what Catelyn did could be interpreted as an 'lol dumb soccer mom' moment, I don't see how it's at all an irrational choice. She weighed the options (presumably she had several hours to think it over -- this was not a split-second decision) and decided that getting Jaime out of the camp was the best course of action. True, she cares about her children and immediate family more than basically anything in the Seven Kingdoms, she's also not new to The Game, and understands that everything has a consequence.
Please let me know if I've missed something here.
This is a fascinating tangent of the show for me.
Jaime and Cersei are clearly attracted to each other on their own merits, but they also justify the whole thing in their "moments of doubt" by remembering that this is what the Targaryens did. Basically, they are seeking to emulate what was for the last 300 years the most powerful dynasty in all of Westeros -- a dynasty that transcended mere political power by virtue of their command of dragons and of other ostensibly supernatural powers. Jaime and Cersei are implicitly (or maybe explicitly) concluding that because the Targaryens gambled with potential madness for the chance to preserve their superior lineage, that it was okay for Lannisters to do it too.
Thing is, the Lannisters don't seem to be a particularly special line. Sure, Jaime is one of the best swordsman in the realm, and Cersei has, uh, high cheekbones. They might be above-average, but it doesn't quite compare to walking through fire or Fucking Dragons. What it comes down to, really, is Jaime and Cersei's own inflated self-image.
What does that look like, though? Robb is now for all intents and purposes intimidating his own bannermen -- people who have fought and died for his claim, and who will continue to fight and die in the near future -- in defense of what they perceive as their mortal enemy. It's become clear at this point that only the nobility really plays The Game, and that everyone else in this system are pawns / cannon fodder on the board. Robb might understand Jaime's inherent value as a bargaining chip, but that doesn't mean all of his bannermen and all of their subordinates do. They understand that this guy broke his oath and murdered the second-to-last legitimate king, and that he also just choked to death the son of one of their northern brothers.
Robb's entire claim to being King in the North is staked on the fervor and devotion he can engender from his followers. As Varys has eloquently pointed out before, a king (or any authority figure) really only has as much legitimacy as people are willing to give him.
Edit: And Robb's Dire Wolf was something of a pup for that scene compared to where it is at now. In a land without Dragons (yet), a Dire Wolf might display a bit of awesome for that fervor and devotion.
If she yells that she's not Tyrion's whore who would believe her? Nobody.
If she plays along, then Tyrion would be grateful to her and try to help her. If she doesn't, then Cersei still tortures her and Tyrion would have no reason to try to rescue her.
So she either plays along so she's being tortured but have a potential ally. Or she doesn't play along where she will still be tortured but now nobody cares.
that's how i read into it.
I hope Theon's part in all this ends up being relevant. I'd hate for it all to mean nothing, for him to just stay chillin' in Winterfell while shit goes down, waiting til Season 3.
A bit ambiguous. It was odd Cersei brought him up. Suggesting the possibility he did in fact help cover it up or simply just didn't have the weakness of getting attached to women despite being part of the game.
Joffrey's a lil bitch. He has no place in the fight.
Tyrion's got shit to do preparing for the city's defense. Why try to divert his attention?
Just a clarification, since several people have mentioned it: The Targaryens were not wizards. Some of them thought they were wizards, but those guys were crazy. Magic has been all but dead in Westeros (and largely in Essos as well) since the decline of the Children of the Forest and the Doom of Valyria, respectively. Targaryen conquest was based on dragons and Targaryen dominion was based on political connections stemming from having a gigantic fucking family that married younger royals to noble houses and such, as well as putting younger royals in various positions of influence (maesters, for example.)
Beyond simply 'Robb uses his direwolf / doesn't stop it from attacking,' that scene has nothing to do with the situation we're talking about. Just watching the scene, you can tell that everyone in the room felt that Greatjon was going too far, and it became a test of Robb's authority. In this case, Robb doesn't have the unanimous sympathy or agreement of his entire host -- most would love to see the Kingslayer ripped apart, or at least hanged. There's also the peculiarity of that particular battle of wills -- namely, that the Greatjon is fucking weird.
I've read the books too, but pointing out a response to this post based on them would get me more ugly looks.
But just in the context of the HBO series, it's clear there is some supernatural dimension to the Targaryen lineage.
Because then the townspeople couldn't get their shipments of precious mud.
Pretty certain this is all in show background on HBO's site/DVDs, and has been alluded to in the series, but history circa Robert's Rebellion:
Additionally, Cersei probably resents her child being sold into a political marriage. Cersei's political marriage wasn't exactly kittens and rainbows, after all.