can someone explain to me how winter soldier was a retcon? i saw him in civil war issues working with fury, and i thought that was pretty freakin cool, him being a super ultra secret agent.
in Ultimate alliance it makes him seem like he was a 4th-tier villain in cap's rogues gallery. that and he was angry at cap for some reason. did he have a change of heart?
Bucky used to be dead. Now it turns out he was brainwashed by the Russians, and so on, and so forth.
Well, except it was total hand-waving: "Oh, we only THOUGHT we saw Colossus die...he was actually only nearly dead, and Breakworld is oh so technologically advanced, so they were able to revive him even though that's insane since they already had the prophecy that Colossus was the one who would destroy their world."
Frankly, while I'm glad to have Piotr back (esp. the Kitty-related aspects), it was not done well.
It wasnt a stained glass window, and also from the context of the comic it seems like very few people have actually been inside that temple or whatever and scene the mural.
It wasnt a stained glass window, and also from the context of the comic it seems like very few people have actually been inside that temple or whatever and scene the mural.
It was an enormous stone mosaic, and I find it really implausible that Breakworld's leaders sent Ord as their sole emissary without telling him "Oh, and there's one guy in particular...". Unless NO ONE knew of the mural - and we have no indication that's the case - it's a very confusing concept.
Now, I'm still reading it; Whedon is one of the best comic writers around lately, but I just hate that plot point.
John Sublime's a possible cause of M-Day. I mean, give Scarlet Witch some Kick...
Someone gave Wanda extreme power, which is what drove her insane, which basically caused everything up to and including Civil War (and thus, the initiative and what is happening currently), indirectly.
Well, yeah, and that person could have been Sublime.
Dude, I am so picking up what you put down.
Fuck, but then he'd be the yellow fear bug to Wanda's Hal. I am both pissed and confused at this conclusion. Again.
The Other.
"It wasn't because of the radioactive spider! He's a totem for a fucking spider god"
Bullshit. He got bitten and fucked up and got his uncle killed. I pretend that shit didn't happen.
I'm assuming that Scott Summers' dad not only being alive, but also being a fucking space pirate, was a pretty big retcon.
That's a pretty broad definition of 'retcon.' It's not like, to my knowledge, there had ever been a story about him that the Corsair stuff overwrote.
Retcon is "everything you read up till now was a lie!!!1!", whereas "everything you read up till now was correct, but oh hey, here's some more information about something or someone" is just, y'know, storytelling.
in Ultimate alliance it makes him seem like he was a 4th-tier villain in cap's rogues gallery. that and he was angry at cap for some reason. did he have a change of heart?
his role in ultimate alliance actually doesn't make a whole lot of sense. he should probably be on fury's side.
I'm assuming that Scott Summers' dad not only being alive, but also being a fucking space pirate, was a pretty big retcon.
That's a pretty broad definition of 'retcon.' It's not like, to my knowledge, there had ever been a story about him that the Corsair stuff overwrote.
Retcon is "everything you read up till now was a lie!!!1!", whereas "everything you read up till now was correct, but oh hey, here's some more information about something or someone" is just, y'know, storytelling.
I'm sure there was a story that referenced Scott's parents being dead without mentioning the part about Scott and Alex jumping out of a plane because it was being tailed by an alien spacecraft.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I'm sure there was a story that referenced Scott's parents being dead without mentioning the part about Scott and Alex jumping out of a plane because it was being tailed by an alien spacecraft.
Yeah, but unless we saw it happening the first time, it's not really a retcon to say that our characters' understanding of past events is wrong. Like, for instance, Luke finding out that his dad is Darth Vader isn't a retcon of his dad being dead - it's just a plot twist. Since the, uh, aliveness or deadness of Scott's folks hadn't heretofore been an issue - just that he thought they were dead - bringing in Corsair didn't overwrite anything that came before. What would have been a retcon is if, like, he'd dug up their corpses and then ten years later, without explanation, they're not-dead pirates in another galaxy.
The stuff that's really, hardcore, like 100% retcon is when something in the past is changed completely without explanation, and we just have to kind of deal with it. ("Flash Thompson? Vietnam? What? I have no idea what you're talking about. He served in the Gulf. Last year. *cough*")
The stuff that's really, hardcore, like 100% retcon is when something in the past is changed completely without explanation, and we just have to kind of deal with it. ("Flash Thompson? Vietnam? What? I have no idea what you're talking about. He served in the Gulf. Last year. *cough*")
To be fair, that kind of thing is unavoidable with Marvel's sliding timeline. About the only people who ignore it are Magneto, whose Holocaust origin is untransferable (though he's been reduced to a baby and then re-aged, making his age and appearance open to fudging), and the Punisher, who is utterly tied into Vietnam and who actually appears to be aging at a constant rate (in the Max title anyway). The sliding timeline is silly and causes things like the Flash retcon, but the alternatives (Flash is sixty or all comics are set in the eighties forever) are probably worse.
Didn't he carry a gun in his first appearances also?
Certainly more than a few times during that relatively brief era.
I saw one panel on these boards before with an early Batman shooting a sleeping vampire. Just say "fuck it" to all the garlic, stake, and cross bullshit and shoot the guy while he's sleeping.
The stuff that's really, hardcore, like 100% retcon is when something in the past is changed completely without explanation, and we just have to kind of deal with it. ("Flash Thompson? Vietnam? What? I have no idea what you're talking about. He served in the Gulf. Last year. *cough*")
To be fair, that kind of thing is unavoidable with Marvel's sliding timeline. About the only people who ignore it are Magneto, whose Holocaust origin is untransferable (though he's been reduced to a baby and then re-aged, making his age and appearance open to fudging), and the Punisher, who is utterly tied into Vietnam and who actually appears to be aging at a constant rate (in the Max title anyway). The sliding timeline is silly and causes things like the Flash retcon, but the alternatives (Flash is sixty or all comics are set in the eighties forever) are probably worse.
Like getting stuck in the 90s.
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Didn't he carry a gun in his first appearances also?
Certainly more than a few times during that relatively brief era.
I saw one panel on these boards before with an early Batman shooting a sleeping vampire. Just say "fuck it" to all the garlic, stake, and cross bullshit and shoot the guy while he's sleeping.
With any luck they'll retcon that out as yet another elaborate Goblin plan. I never read any of the comics when Gwen was in them but even I really question what the hell the editorial team were thinking with that decision.
Didn't he carry a gun in his first appearances also?
Certainly more than a few times during that relatively brief era.
I saw one panel on these boards before with an early Batman shooting a sleeping vampire. Just say "fuck it" to all the garlic, stake, and cross bullshit and shoot the guy while he's sleeping.
But seriously
FUCK vampires
Yeah, in the early days, Batman and Robin were a little closer to the Punisher than they are now. I read this one story that featured the Bat-Gyro(copter), and Batman lasso'd some thug around the neck and broke his neck from 200 feet. I think the body was dropped on the front steps of GCPD.
Now that is how get shit done.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
edited July 2007
See, stuff like that is why I get especially annoyed at dogmatic idiots like Byrne. Most of these characters who've been around any length of time have had several wildly different incarnations - Batman morphing from grim slayer of petty thugs to square-headed smiley 50s guy getting the key to the city at every fucking building dedication or policeman's ball being just one of the more blatant ones.
With any luck they'll retcon that out as yet another elaborate Goblin plan. I never read any of the comics when Gwen was in them but even I really question what the hell the editorial team were thinking with that decision.
Apparently Peter was supposed to be the real father, but the team felt that it'd make him seem too old.
But hey, compared to her buddy Maxwell Lord, former benevolent schemer turned friend-murdering head of a covert black-ops organization, she got off light.
IIRC, Maxwell Lord wasn't always a good guy. He took over the Extremists at one point, becoming a new Lord Havoc, right?
But really, did it have to be handled so POORLY? How many writers tackled it and continued to build on it? In my opinion, it could have been handled really simply:
Magneto's abusing KICK. He snaps. Theres the whole Xorn/noble aspect of his personality, and the whole crazy human-death-camp side. So, you acknowledge that this happens, and have magneto disappear for a while, possibly showing that he's trying to reconcile for his actions. You could easily handle his beheading by saying Xavier did some pyschic influence, wolverine only thinks he beheaded him, etc. Wouldn't be the first time Xavier helped out Eric. Really, it seems pretty easy.
You know, when Claremont's new version of Excalibur started coming out and had Professor X hanging out in Genosha with Magneto after we had all just seen Magneto get killed, and he gives some lame excuse for Magneto's survivial, I thought I saw through that thinly veiled ruse and just knew in a year or so we'd find out that Magneto wasn't really there, and Xavier was just talking to himself, not being able to handle what had happened and having another psychotic break from reality. It all looked like it was right there. I felt so smug about noticing this, too. And then it never happened. O_o
But really, did it have to be handled so POORLY? How many writers tackled it and continued to build on it? In my opinion, it could have been handled really simply:
Magneto's abusing KICK. He snaps. Theres the whole Xorn/noble aspect of his personality, and the whole crazy human-death-camp side. So, you acknowledge that this happens, and have magneto disappear for a while, possibly showing that he's trying to reconcile for his actions. You could easily handle his beheading by saying Xavier did some pyschic influence, wolverine only thinks he beheaded him, etc. Wouldn't be the first time Xavier helped out Eric. Really, it seems pretty easy.
You know, when Claremont's new version of Excalibur started coming out and had Professor X hanging out in Genosha with Magneto after we had all just seen Magneto get killed, and he gives some lame excuse for Magneto's survivial, I thought I saw through that thinly veiled ruse and just knew in a year or so we'd find out that Magneto wasn't really there, and Xavier was just talking to himself, not being able to handle what had happened and having another psychotic break from reality. It all looked like it was right there. I felt so smug about noticing this, too. And then it never happened. O_o
Me too. In fact, I think that was either the original set-up, or a back-up in case Marvel decided to go with the real Magneto being offed in New X-Men.
It would have been a far more interesting read had it basically been "Xavier goes batshit-loco in Genosha" instead of the Claremont-by-the-numbers we actually got.
To be fair to Claremont (and, God forgive me, Chuck Austen) it was apparently an editorial decision to bring back Mags and Xorn so quickly. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that absolutely no plan whatsoever was in place to explain everything when they brought them back, and that the editorial staff just thought they'd get away with 'It wasn't Magneto who died! Um...'. It's probably the stupidest retcon to have come out of Marvel for a good long while, not just because it screws a great story, but that throughout the whole thing it was utterly obvious that they didn't have a clue how to fix things and that every decision they made was making things worse. Just lazy, stupid, amateurish incompetence every step of the way, until Bendis (not even on the X-Office staff, for Christ's sake) steps in and shovels the whole thing under the carpet in New Avengers. An embarrassingly awful episode for everyone involved in X-Men comics.
With that said, didn't Morrison hand in his scripts at the very last minute to try and ensure editorial didn't have enough time to tamper with them? They probably didn't have a great deal of time to come up with a particularly compelling/plausible reason for Mag's resurrection.
With that said, didn't Morrison hand in his scripts at the very last minute to try and ensure editorial didn't have enough time to tamper with them? They probably didn't have a great deal of time to come up with a particularly compelling/plausible reason for Mag's resurrection.
That doesn't excuse the later nonsense, mind.
Yeah, he handed his shit in at the deadlines so the other books that were going on at the time couldn't screw with his stories too much.
He also apparently had some kind of limit to the amount of editorial interference allowed in his books, but Marvel could have gotten around that by just not resurrecting Mags instantly. Wait until you've got your story straight then bring him back. It wasn't rocket science, but no, they had to just bang him in there on the last page without thinking first. Fuckwits.
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Bucky used to be dead. Now it turns out he was brainwashed by the Russians, and so on, and so forth.
Well, except it was total hand-waving: "Oh, we only THOUGHT we saw Colossus die...he was actually only nearly dead, and Breakworld is oh so technologically advanced, so they were able to revive him even though that's insane since they already had the prophecy that Colossus was the one who would destroy their world."
Frankly, while I'm glad to have Piotr back (esp. the Kitty-related aspects), it was not done well.
And story concerns aside, everyone's reaction to his return were pretty spot-on, and that's what I thought was really well done.
This whole thing seems like a fairytale that Emma cooked up just to screw with their heads.
It was an enormous stone mosaic, and I find it really implausible that Breakworld's leaders sent Ord as their sole emissary without telling him "Oh, and there's one guy in particular...". Unless NO ONE knew of the mural - and we have no indication that's the case - it's a very confusing concept.
Now, I'm still reading it; Whedon is one of the best comic writers around lately, but I just hate that plot point.
Dude, I am so picking up what you put down.
Fuck, but then he'd be the yellow fear bug to Wanda's Hal. I am both pissed and confused at this conclusion. Again.
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"It wasn't because of the radioactive spider! He's a totem for a fucking spider god"
Bullshit. He got bitten and fucked up and got his uncle killed. I pretend that shit didn't happen.
And I can't imagine that it made more sense then than it does now.
That's a pretty broad definition of 'retcon.' It's not like, to my knowledge, there had ever been a story about him that the Corsair stuff overwrote.
Retcon is "everything you read up till now was a lie!!!1!", whereas "everything you read up till now was correct, but oh hey, here's some more information about something or someone" is just, y'know, storytelling.
his role in ultimate alliance actually doesn't make a whole lot of sense. he should probably be on fury's side.
I'm sure there was a story that referenced Scott's parents being dead without mentioning the part about Scott and Alex jumping out of a plane because it was being tailed by an alien spacecraft.
:^:
Yeah, but unless we saw it happening the first time, it's not really a retcon to say that our characters' understanding of past events is wrong. Like, for instance, Luke finding out that his dad is Darth Vader isn't a retcon of his dad being dead - it's just a plot twist. Since the, uh, aliveness or deadness of Scott's folks hadn't heretofore been an issue - just that he thought they were dead - bringing in Corsair didn't overwrite anything that came before. What would have been a retcon is if, like, he'd dug up their corpses and then ten years later, without explanation, they're not-dead pirates in another galaxy.
The stuff that's really, hardcore, like 100% retcon is when something in the past is changed completely without explanation, and we just have to kind of deal with it. ("Flash Thompson? Vietnam? What? I have no idea what you're talking about. He served in the Gulf. Last year. *cough*")
To be fair, that kind of thing is unavoidable with Marvel's sliding timeline. About the only people who ignore it are Magneto, whose Holocaust origin is untransferable (though he's been reduced to a baby and then re-aged, making his age and appearance open to fudging), and the Punisher, who is utterly tied into Vietnam and who actually appears to be aging at a constant rate (in the Max title anyway). The sliding timeline is silly and causes things like the Flash retcon, but the alternatives (Flash is sixty or all comics are set in the eighties forever) are probably worse.
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I saw one panel on these boards before with an early Batman shooting a sleeping vampire. Just say "fuck it" to all the garlic, stake, and cross bullshit and shoot the guy while he's sleeping.
Like getting stuck in the 90s.
But seriously
FUCK vampires
Ahahahahaha. Oh man what the fuck.
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You think I'm lying?
those fuckers had goblin blood
Spiderman: Sin's Past. I think it's like the 8th or 9th trade.
You should pick it up, it's an EXCELLENT read.
I know. I read it. I regret it so much. AhahahahahaHAHAHAaahaha!
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You laugh to hide the tears
Yeah, in the early days, Batman and Robin were a little closer to the Punisher than they are now. I read this one story that featured the Bat-Gyro(copter), and Batman lasso'd some thug around the neck and broke his neck from 200 feet. I think the body was dropped on the front steps of GCPD.
Now that is how get shit done.
Apparently Peter was supposed to be the real father, but the team felt that it'd make him seem too old.
Being "hip" > Making sense
IIRC, Maxwell Lord wasn't always a good guy. He took over the Extremists at one point, becoming a new Lord Havoc, right?
You know, when Claremont's new version of Excalibur started coming out and had Professor X hanging out in Genosha with Magneto after we had all just seen Magneto get killed, and he gives some lame excuse for Magneto's survivial, I thought I saw through that thinly veiled ruse and just knew in a year or so we'd find out that Magneto wasn't really there, and Xavier was just talking to himself, not being able to handle what had happened and having another psychotic break from reality. It all looked like it was right there. I felt so smug about noticing this, too. And then it never happened. O_o
Me too. In fact, I think that was either the original set-up, or a back-up in case Marvel decided to go with the real Magneto being offed in New X-Men.
It would have been a far more interesting read had it basically been "Xavier goes batshit-loco in Genosha" instead of the Claremont-by-the-numbers we actually got.
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That doesn't excuse the later nonsense, mind.
Yeah, he handed his shit in at the deadlines so the other books that were going on at the time couldn't screw with his stories too much.
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