The thing about Gibraltar is it was actually part of Spain, being unquestionably attached to it, until ceded to Britain by treaty, so while I hold that it's up to Gibraltar's current population to decide who they want to be part of, I can understand Spain's claim far more than Argentina's.
Their claim is worth zero.
Because of the treaty.
This is the basis of thousands of years of geopolitics.
I agree totally, maybe I'm expressing myself wrong: This is not a bunch of penguinized rocks in the middle of the sea; it's a single huge monkeyfied rock at the edge of the sea that people have been living on for more than 200 years. While I think Spain has no legal claim to it, I can understand their desire to reclaim it more than Argentina's claim, if that makes sense.
Spain's continued possession of Ceuta and Melilla, and their steadfast refusal to admit any similarities whatsoever between their status and Gibraltar's, kind of wrecks any moral high ground they have vis-a-vis Gibraltar though.
Like France continuing to insist that French Guiana is totally a part of the French homeland.
Point being, even if it wan't retarded for any European country to support Argentina from an economic and political standpoint (cripple relations with a major trading partner and ally to please a banana Republic thousands of miles away?), none of them would because it would shine a very uncomfortable spotlight on their own overseas territories.
Spain's continued possession of Ceuta and Melilla, and their steadfast refusal to admit any similarities whatsoever between their status and Gibraltar's, kind of wrecks any moral high ground they have vis-a-vis Gibraltar though.
Like France continuing to insist that French Guiana is totally a part of the French homeland.
Even more obnoxious than Ceuta and Melilla are the 'sovereign territories'.. rocky outcroppings and small islands along the Moroccan coast with a handful of stationed military troops.
This raises a question really: Would anybody live in Gibraltar if it wasn't a major British Navy port for Centuries? If it was Spanish the whole time? Sure its valuable now, but that's after centuries of british government spending.
French Guiana would be a failed state within weeks of being granted independence of France, what with their economy being shit. So its not all one way.
At least the Falklands have got a small selfsufficent population with a viable if small economy. Sure the British government is financing it, but if not for Argentina, it would be a lot less then it is currently.
Would Argentina place any value on the Falklands if it wasn't for nationalist pride? Would all those offshore resources on the continental shelf in the Falklands Economic zone be used to benefit the people of the Falklands or would it all go to Buenos Aires?
I think not.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
This raises a question really: Would anybody live in Gibraltar if it wasn't a major British Navy port for Centuries? If it was Spanish the whole time? Sure its valuable now, but that's after centuries of british government spending.
French Guiana would be a failed state within weeks of being granted independence of France, what with their economy being shit. So its not all one way.
At least the Falklands have got a small selfsufficent population with a viable if small economy. Sure the British government is financing it, but if not for Argentina, it would be a lot less then it is currently.
Would Argentina place any value on the Falklands if it wasn't for nationalist pride? Would all those offshore resources on the continental shelf in the Falklands Economic zone be used to benefit the people of the Falklands or would it all go to Buenos Aires?
I think not.
Since no one lived there between the Spanish abandoning the islands and the British setting up a port, I think you're on the right track.
Are there actually chunks of unoccupied, land capable of being developed for housing purposes, anywhere along the European, Mediterranean coast?
There have been a few hundred years of population pressure and "Hey, would ya look at that nice view". Surely it would be currently populated regardless of the actions and settlements of the British.
Gibraltar absolutely. That area is tremendously crowded.
The Falklands? Probably not. There are lots of low-pop areas of Argentina that suck slightly but are still easier than the Falklands. Until Patagonia gets crowded, I don't think anyone except oil people would be on the Falklands.
French Guiana I don't know much about, but it seems to have completely different issues than either, and also to have had an original indigenous population.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Yeah, French Guiana is actual colonialism in action.
The Falklands is not.
The only thing I can see that would make people side with Argentina is some kind of misplaced and overblown post-colonial guilt. But that may be unfair of me to think.
I'm not trying to say that French Guiana and the Falklands are comparable, just that Spain insisting than Ceuta and Melilla are totally different to Gibraltar is rather like the ethical hoops France jumps through trying to justify it's remaining colonial possessions.
The issues that would happen if Britain gave back the Falklands to Argentina could be huge. Any nation that had land taken from it with the last 200 years would sue for it back. Gone is half of the United States, Alsace-Lorraine ownership debated again, Prussia reformed, and Austria demanding the Czech Republic and Hungary back. Because self governance be damned, we had a claim at one point so your ours.
Wait, awesome compromise. Argentina can have the Falklands when they kneel to the Spanish again!
Yeah, French Guiana is actual colonialism in action.
The Falklands is not.
The only thing I can see that would make people side with Argentina is some kind of misplaced and overblown post-colonial guilt. But that may be unfair of me to think.
It is absolutely fair to think that. Show me one argument in Argentina's favour that doesn't boil down to Argentina re-writing history to fit their case and pretentious gooses swallowing it wholesale because "hell, whiteys been wrong in the past so they're wrong now!". Example: Sean fucking Penn, he may be the most high profile goose doing this but he's far from the only one.
Are there actually chunks of unoccupied, land capable of being developed for housing purposes, anywhere along the European, Mediterranean coast?
There have been a few hundred years of population pressure and "Hey, would ya look at that nice view". Surely it would be currently populated regardless of the actions and settlements of the British.
Spain's Med coast is pretty mental, or at least, the bits I've been to anyway. I took a bus between Malaga and Gibraltar in 08 or 09 (I forget) and that entire coast line (about 138 km door to door according to Google Maps) has housing built alongside it. I imagine a lot of it empty too. That was a pretty graphic demonstration about how important construction was to Spain until quite recently
Yeah the point of Gibraltar wasn't housing pressure but that it controls the Atlantic gateway to the Mediterranean, and historically it was something like the second or third most important naval base in the British empire for over two centuries. If the dudes who own Gibralter don't want ships getting into or out of the Med, then into or out of it they do not get.
Even now I rather suspect it's a pretty significant intel gathering point.
Yeah the point of Gibraltar wasn't housing pressure but that it controls the Atlantic gateway to the Mediterranean, and historically it was something like the second or third most important naval base in the British empire for over two centuries. If the dudes who own Gibralter don't want ships getting into or out of the Med, then into or out of it they do not get.
Even now I rather suspect it's a pretty significant intel gathering point.
Yeah the point of Gibraltar wasn't housing pressure but that it controls the Atlantic gateway to the Mediterranean, and historically it was something like the second or third most important naval base in the British empire for over two centuries. If the dudes who own Gibralter don't want ships getting into or out of the Med, then into or out of it they do not get.
Even now I rather suspect it's a pretty significant intel gathering point.
Don't forget its value as a tax shelter.
and the quaint British pubs! In Spain!
It is a lovely little port though, but standing on the Rock one can easily accept that the main port of Algiciras across the bay is better suited as a commercial port.
Yeah the point of Gibraltar wasn't housing pressure but that it controls the Atlantic gateway to the Mediterranean, and historically it was something like the second or third most important naval base in the British empire for over two centuries. If the dudes who own Gibralter don't want ships getting into or out of the Med, then into or out of it they do not get.
Even now I rather suspect it's a pretty significant intel gathering point.
Don't forget its value as a tax shelter.
and the quaint British pubs! Near Spain!
It is a lovely little port though, but standing on the Rock one can easily accept that the main port of Algiciras across the bay is better suited as a commercial port.
Well, if we're looking for cultural value, Gibraltar is great from an English speaking perspective, as it allows easy access to the Andalusian diversity of Llanito culture.
The residents seem to have a high degree of participation in the UK military services too, which makes sense given it has been a military town forever.
It was slightly odd though, talking to an employee on the cable car about his time deployed in Ulster
The residents seem to have a high degree of participation in the UK military services too, which makes sense given it has been a military town forever.
It was slightly odd though, talking to an employee on the cable car about his time deployed in Ulster
You should go to Israel. Everyone has a military story. A random bus driver will tell you how they send machinery without anyone knowing where it's going or where it's from (a brick on the accelerator and nobody behind the wheel) and the time he just decided to see where it was going for shits and giggles.
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
I honestly want to hear her say it. I want her to say "I do not give a flying fuck about what the islanders want". I mean everyone already knows it, but I want her to have the balls to say it. Then at least the world can really know where she's coming from.
The issues that would happen if Britain gave back the Falklands to Argentina could be huge. Any nation that had land taken from it with the last 200 years would sue for it back. Gone is half of the United States, Alsace-Lorraine ownership debated again, Prussia reformed, and Austria demanding the Czech Republic and Hungary back. Because self governance be damned, we had a claim at one point so your ours.
Wait, awesome compromise. Argentina can have the Falklands when they kneel to the Spanish again!
Yeah America already has a ton of that bullshit . Mexico constantly demands portions of Texas back even though Texas was an independent nation long before we got it.
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
Well like nine years. It was independent for nine years.
I am actually curious what kind of results the UN actually expects from negotiations on the Flaklands. I mean the two parties have mutually exclusive positions, and there really isn't any kind of compromise position between them. Personally, I wonder about the viability of having the Falklands declared an independant member of the Commonwealth.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I think the UN wants there to be talks to keep Argentina happy. They don't actually want to award the Falklands to them, and God knows how doing that would actually work if the islanders were against it, but their stance carefully avoids picking a side, which is something the UN likes to do.
I am actually curious what kind of results the UN actually expects from negotiations on the Flaklands. I mean the two parties have mutually exclusive positions, and there really isn't any kind of compromise position between them.
Pretty much this. There is no middle ground to be reached here, the Falklands isn't a holiday villa, we can't do a time share soverignty agreement. It either belongs to the UK or it belongs to Argentina, both countries are set on their individual positions so I really don't see what purpose negotiations would serve.
I do actually have a small amount of praise for the way Cameron has adressed this because it's the only way to adress it. We're having a referendum, the inhabitants of the islands will let their will be known, if Argentina has any pretentions of being a democracy then they will have to accept whatever the results will be.
Personally, I predict when the referendum produces a pretty firm "fuck off Argentina", Kirchner will handwave it away and continue to babble incoherantly about a 50 year old resolution advising talks to take place. She honestly could not give less of a fuck what the islanders want, her government seems baffled by the entire concept of self determination.
She couldn't give a fuck about the islands either, she cares about looking good at home in a country on the brink and keeping peoples minds off how shit the economy is. The oil money won't hurt either.
She couldn't give a fuck about the islands either, she cares about looking good at home in a country on the brink and keeping peoples minds off how shit the economy is. The oil money won't hurt either.
But hey guys, Sean Penn agree's with her!
Man, fuck Sean Penn. If Sean Penn said "oxygen is good" I'd seriously consider choking myself out of spite.
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
She couldn't give a fuck about the islands either, she cares about looking good at home in a country on the brink and keeping peoples minds off how shit the economy is. The oil money won't hurt either.
But hey guys, Sean Penn agree's with her!
Man, fuck Sean Penn. If Sean Penn said "oxygen is good" I'd seriously consider choking myself out of spite.
She couldn't give a fuck about the islands either, she cares about looking good at home in a country on the brink and keeping peoples minds off how shit the economy is. The oil money won't hurt either.
But hey guys, Sean Penn agree's with her!
Man, fuck Sean Penn. If Sean Penn said "oxygen is good" I'd seriously consider choking myself out of spite.
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Ah, right. Yes, that makes sense.
Like France continuing to insist that French Guiana is totally a part of the French homeland.
Even more obnoxious than Ceuta and Melilla are the 'sovereign territories'.. rocky outcroppings and small islands along the Moroccan coast with a handful of stationed military troops.
French Guiana would be a failed state within weeks of being granted independence of France, what with their economy being shit. So its not all one way.
At least the Falklands have got a small selfsufficent population with a viable if small economy. Sure the British government is financing it, but if not for Argentina, it would be a lot less then it is currently.
Would Argentina place any value on the Falklands if it wasn't for nationalist pride? Would all those offshore resources on the continental shelf in the Falklands Economic zone be used to benefit the people of the Falklands or would it all go to Buenos Aires?
I think not.
Since no one lived there between the Spanish abandoning the islands and the British setting up a port, I think you're on the right track.
There have been a few hundred years of population pressure and "Hey, would ya look at that nice view". Surely it would be currently populated regardless of the actions and settlements of the British.
The Falklands? Probably not. There are lots of low-pop areas of Argentina that suck slightly but are still easier than the Falklands. Until Patagonia gets crowded, I don't think anyone except oil people would be on the Falklands.
French Guiana I don't know much about, but it seems to have completely different issues than either, and also to have had an original indigenous population.
The Falklands is not.
The only thing I can see that would make people side with Argentina is some kind of misplaced and overblown post-colonial guilt. But that may be unfair of me to think.
Wait, awesome compromise. Argentina can have the Falklands when they kneel to the Spanish again!
It is absolutely fair to think that. Show me one argument in Argentina's favour that doesn't boil down to Argentina re-writing history to fit their case and pretentious gooses swallowing it wholesale because "hell, whiteys been wrong in the past so they're wrong now!". Example: Sean fucking Penn, he may be the most high profile goose doing this but he's far from the only one.
Spain's Med coast is pretty mental, or at least, the bits I've been to anyway. I took a bus between Malaga and Gibraltar in 08 or 09 (I forget) and that entire coast line (about 138 km door to door according to Google Maps) has housing built alongside it. I imagine a lot of it empty too. That was a pretty graphic demonstration about how important construction was to Spain until quite recently
Even now I rather suspect it's a pretty significant intel gathering point.
Don't forget its value as a tax shelter.
and the quaint British pubs! In Spain!
It is a lovely little port though, but standing on the Rock one can easily accept that the main port of Algiciras across the bay is better suited as a commercial port.
and the quaint British pubs! Near Spain!
It is a lovely little port though, but standing on the Rock one can easily accept that the main port of Algiciras across the bay is better suited as a commercial port.
Isn't that in Wales?
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Incidentally, as far as exposure to cultural diversity is concerned, yeah I think we don't really need Gibraltar for that when we have London.
It was slightly odd though, talking to an employee on the cable car about his time deployed in Ulster
The saga continues...
You should go to Israel. Everyone has a military story. A random bus driver will tell you how they send machinery without anyone knowing where it's going or where it's from (a brick on the accelerator and nobody behind the wheel) and the time he just decided to see where it was going for shits and giggles.
Prett slick, Cammo can be a pretty good troll when he wants to be, he has to tone it down for PMQ's.
Not suprised she had no retort of value, it's hard when you are not appealing to jingoist sentiment.
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Pretty much this. There is no middle ground to be reached here, the Falklands isn't a holiday villa, we can't do a time share soverignty agreement. It either belongs to the UK or it belongs to Argentina, both countries are set on their individual positions so I really don't see what purpose negotiations would serve.
I do actually have a small amount of praise for the way Cameron has adressed this because it's the only way to adress it. We're having a referendum, the inhabitants of the islands will let their will be known, if Argentina has any pretentions of being a democracy then they will have to accept whatever the results will be.
Personally, I predict when the referendum produces a pretty firm "fuck off Argentina", Kirchner will handwave it away and continue to babble incoherantly about a 50 year old resolution advising talks to take place. She honestly could not give less of a fuck what the islanders want, her government seems baffled by the entire concept of self determination.
But hey guys, Sean Penn agree's with her!
Man, fuck Sean Penn. If Sean Penn said "oxygen is good" I'd seriously consider choking myself out of spite.