Makes sense, Langly. There's also the bit about guards being able to vig the people in their cabin.
Also, how does that interact with the mafia kill? Does the guards' collective decision to vig one of their wards mean that they aren't guarding against the mafia, or are they performing both vig and guard functions that night?
we can get a clarification, but I would assume it is just a part of being on guard duty. You would still be guarding yourselves + whoever was not killed by you.
Does vigging a player in the night remove the guard effect from the whole cabin?
I'd have assumed the opposite.
Well, I mean, realistically (obviously, not game mechanics wise) killing someone in their sleep really isn't a time intensive action. They fall asleep, and you smother them with a pillow or whatever. The rest of the night, you're still standing guard on the cabin for the other people you didn't, you know, murder.
Saber might want the opposite for game balance, that's just the way I thought of the action as listed.
Also I would STRONGLY suggest that you keep identities of the guards secret, particularly after the fact. Otherwise the mafia could target the people who haven't guarded yet and make it so there are no available guards at some point.
My friend is working on a roguelike game you can play if you want to. (It has free demo)
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Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
edited June 2012
I am laughing heartily right now. The dogs are looking at me funny. Whee
ANYWAY, long story short. Please to not be stabbing me in/around the spine, everyone. There are plenty of macaroni archery adventure kits for everyone, mmk?
Well, I mean, realistically (obviously, not game mechanics wise) killing someone in their sleep really isn't a time intensive action. They fall asleep, and you smother them with a pillow or whatever. The rest of the night, you're still standing guard on the cabin for the other people you didn't, you know, murder.
Saber might want the opposite for game balance, that's just the way I thought of the action as listed.
Isn't the instant that you turn your back to do something else -- just for a moment! -- the instant that your funny friend gets yanked out the window and chopped up?
Also I would STRONGLY suggest that you keep identities of the guards secret, particularly after the fact. Otherwise the mafia could target the people who haven't guarded yet and make it so there are no available guards at some point.
The AnonymousUh, uh, uhhhhhh...Uh, uh.Registered Userregular
I kind of sort of need a cabin too. Don't worry, I don't bite!
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Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
Why don't you guys bunk up for the time being? Tomorrow sometime we should make a list of all of the people who are without lodging and work to get them together
Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
I have contingencies. And contingencies for those contingencies.
I am not trying to get you killed, and I will not contribute to your death, but I would not want two people to end up dead because someone was without protection and you were dying to the vote.
Things at camp are getting really weird! I was telling T. Eddy Bearkins about how one of the campers thought that he was a magician, and tried to turn another boy (mean old Stever) into a marshmallow. How silly! Teddy said that some of them are starting to hear the voices too. The voices sing such pretty songs, but they lie sometimes. Last night they were whispering to me from the dark place under the porch.
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Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
edited June 2012
I am the amazing Cyclopso! With my poison ivy eyepatch, I can block out the demons that prevent me from doing more magic!
Time to go wander into the woods unarmed and talking loudly so as to attract attention!
I know this can be a little redundant, but it makes life significantly easier for me. A lot of times group PM's will make a decision on team members and guards, then start discussing more general strategy. If I need to go back through all of these and search for where people decided on who was doing what, it makes life significantly more difficult for me. It's also not always clear what the final decision was in regards to guarding and such.
Getting this information also ensures we are all on the same page. Backstabbing, clever play, and misdirection are all integral parts of phalla. Host errors are not. My main goal is for everyone to have a fun game. And while many of you will die, I'd like to ensure that it's due to your (and your fellow player's) actions, not mine.
Finally, there are a few other considerations. I want to ensure that people are active, at least enough to send in a quick order. I also want to ensure that the skinchangers always have some plausible deniability in regards to orders.
I realize this is an extra step, but it really does go a long way towards helping me run everything smoothly. I'd love to have a discussion with everyone post-game to get thoughts and improvements, but for now I am going to insist on everyone sending in orders.
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Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
Saber, you're not doing it right if you're not doing it wrong
Such is the way of things
Finishing up morning clean-up, there were several questions last night. Baidol and Langly hit the nail on the head for the most part, but I'll confirm the questions here.
Can you have nobody guard?
Yes. You would be protected from exposure death since you are in a team, but not from skinchangers.
I am wondering if the mafia target a player, who is guarded, and the guard is overwhelmed, does the targeted player die or the guard.
The targeted player would die.
the cabins basically provide an (x) shield for all players in the cabin, where x stands for the number of people guarding. I think that the mafia needs to beat that number in order for their kill to go through. So if they targeted Langly with two attacks, and one person in my cabin is on guard, I would die. If they targeted me with one attack, I would live.
This is mostly correct. The shield is based on effective force, not simply numbers.
Does vigging a player in the night remove the guard effect from the whole cabin?
No, it does not.
SaberOverEasy on
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Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
This guarding mechanic seems...interesting. Especially since there is the ability for every cabin to perform a vig without losing their guard ability (short of killing villagers of course). The exhaustion should make you think about who is setting up to guard and a sort of rotation, where there is also the possibility that the guarding person will murder you horribly and force people into smaller and smaller groups.
Posting up the cabin lists should be a good idea, but probably not until the last possible moment before vote close. The last thing the mafia needs is a list of who's where that could lead them to decide who is an easy target on a given night. Plus it may help us to catch dem skinchangers.
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Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
@SaberOverEasy,
once you are in a cabin, are you locked into that one for the rest of the game?
If we can float about freely between nights, we can maybe arrange things so where we get the same amount of protection across all cabins or something. I dunno. It could work
once you are in a cabin, are you locked into that one for the rest of the game?
No, you are not locked into a cabin for the rest of the game.
You may change your group however you wish each day as long as it conforms to the general rules (no more than 4 people, waiting 2 nights between guarding, etc.).
The last thing the mafia needs is a list of who's where that could lead them to decide who is an easy target on a given night.
That's silly. Cabins are a mechanic to encourage soft networking (rather, it explicitly discourages not soft networking), and like any other soft network, should be considered compromised by the mafia.
I'm still thinking about how to turn this to our advantage. 28 players in groups of <= 4 means >= 7 groups. With ~20% mafia, we should expect 5 or 6 mafia members. That means that, unless Saber thinks the Cabin mechanic warrants having more mafia, the mafia cannot have infiltrated every Cabin (7+ > (5 || 6)).
I was actually thinking that just this morning! I would love to design a game that is mechanically like this to encourage soft networking, but it'd have to be a gentle not-too-punishing way. That's post game talk anyways.
The last thing the mafia needs is a list of who's where that could lead them to decide who is an easy target on a given night.
That's silly. Cabins are a mechanic to encourage soft networking (rather, it explicitly discourages not soft networking), and like any other soft network, should be considered compromised by the mafia.
I'm still thinking about how to turn this to our advantage. 28 players in groups of <= 4 means >= 7 groups. With ~20% mafia, we should expect 5 or 6 mafia members. That means that, unless Saber thinks the Cabin mechanic warrants having more mafia, the mafia cannot have infiltrated every Cabin (7+ > (5 || 6)).
I don't think he meant it would be horrible for them to know, but rather that we shouldn't disclose cabin mates until right at vote close or right afterward.
The problem with waiting is that this involves everyone in the game, so by waiting, someone could claim to have forgotten to post their list, and then people start dying and it's harder to keep up with stuff.
Personally, I don't think it's a big deal to post cabin lists up early. The main thing is to keep secret who is guarding, and how many.
The main thing is to keep secret who is guarding, and how many.
Definitely. Of course, we have to assume that, by numbers, most cabins will have a mafioso in them and will therefore have access to the information anyway. No need to make it easy on them, however.
Would it be more useful (from a safety/information gathering perspective) to shuffle team members every day or to try to remain consistent?
definitely think we should stick to the same cabins, except until the network is formed. Then they need to (secretly) form their own cabin, without telling their unconfirmed bunkmates.
I think that this game encourages soft networking at the same time that it harshly discourages it. I really like the mechanic.
I think, for the village, it will be best to publicly soft network cabin rosters, but no other information. Anything else is basically handing the mafia stuff that they might not know, and won't really give us an advantage.
There were several cabins that formed before the game began, which means that, hilariously, there could be cabins full of villagers, or cabins with a high majority of mafia in them by default.
The best case for the mafia is to have one member in each cabin, so they know what's going on for the most part with guard duties. The pre-game stuff could have completely messed that up, though. They can't get into some cabins, because they've already filled up before the roles went out. So there could be at least 2 cabins that do not have any mafia in them.
AND, let's say there is a cabin that formed early, and now there are two mafia in that cabin. Now that we're going to be posting cabin rosters, they can't , like, secretly switch cabins into someone asking for members, because they're going to be found out.
So the best case for us would be that one cabin has three mafia in it. They'll be totally stuck there for the first day, and the mafia's guard knowledge will be limited.
Would it be more useful (from a safety/information gathering perspective) to shuffle team members every day or to try to remain consistent?
definitely think we should stick to the same cabins, except until the network is formed. Then they need to (secretly) form their own cabin, without telling their unconfirmed bunkmates.
This can only work if the network forms early, and I'm not sure the vig would show up different from the mafia in this game, if there even is one.
You can't secretly make a network cabin unless it's public knowledge that there's a network.
My friend is working on a roguelike game you can play if you want to. (It has free demo)
Would it be more useful (from a safety/information gathering perspective) to shuffle team members every day or to try to remain consistent?
definitely think we should stick to the same cabins, except until the network is formed. Then they need to (secretly) form their own cabin, without telling their unconfirmed bunkmates.
This can only work if the network forms early, and I'm not sure the vig would show up different from the mafia in this game, if there even is one.
You can't secretly make a network cabin unless it's public knowledge that there's a network.
why? All the network has to do is keep it under wraps that they are formed.
A seer seers two villagers. The third night, they continue to tell their established cabins that they are rooming with them, but their actual order pm is to bunk with the confirmed villagers.
No one would know but them that they were rooming together. The people that think they are rooming with them would have no idea unless they were told.
Posts
Well, I mean, realistically (obviously, not game mechanics wise) killing someone in their sleep really isn't a time intensive action. They fall asleep, and you smother them with a pillow or whatever. The rest of the night, you're still standing guard on the cabin for the other people you didn't, you know, murder.
Saber might want the opposite for game balance, that's just the way I thought of the action as listed.
I didn't see it that way until you pointed it out. Thanks
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
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ANYWAY, long story short. Please to not be stabbing me in/around the spine, everyone. There are plenty of macaroni archery adventure kits for everyone, mmk?
Isn't the instant that you turn your back to do something else -- just for a moment! -- the instant that your funny friend gets yanked out the window and chopped up?
yes this is true
Vigging as a guard will not negate your guard on the rest of your team
**sniffle**
The Black Hole of Cygnus X-1
I am not trying to get you killed, and I will not contribute to your death, but I would not want two people to end up dead because someone was without protection and you were dying to the vote.
Was just kiddin'.
Now make me a smore!
The Black Hole of Cygnus X-1
now you are a s'more.
:rotate:
Things at camp are getting really weird! I was telling T. Eddy Bearkins about how one of the campers thought that he was a magician, and tried to turn another boy (mean old Stever) into a marshmallow. How silly! Teddy said that some of them are starting to hear the voices too. The voices sing such pretty songs, but they lie sometimes. Last night they were whispering to me from the dark place under the porch.
Time to go wander into the woods unarmed and talking loudly so as to attract attention!
I know there has been some confusion on orders. Here is what I am expecting from everyone tonight:
You should send me an individual (not group) PM with the following information:
Team: Please list each team member
Guard: Let me know whether you are guarding tonight
Special Ability: Your guard vig target or any other special ability you may have
Getting this information also ensures we are all on the same page. Backstabbing, clever play, and misdirection are all integral parts of phalla. Host errors are not. My main goal is for everyone to have a fun game. And while many of you will die, I'd like to ensure that it's due to your (and your fellow player's) actions, not mine.
Finally, there are a few other considerations. I want to ensure that people are active, at least enough to send in a quick order. I also want to ensure that the skinchangers always have some plausible deniability in regards to orders.
I realize this is an extra step, but it really does go a long way towards helping me run everything smoothly. I'd love to have a discussion with everyone post-game to get thoughts and improvements, but for now I am going to insist on everyone sending in orders.
Such is the way of things
Can you have nobody guard?
Yes. You would be protected from exposure death since you are in a team, but not from skinchangers.
I am wondering if the mafia target a player, who is guarded, and the guard is overwhelmed, does the targeted player die or the guard.
The targeted player would die.
the cabins basically provide an (x) shield for all players in the cabin, where x stands for the number of people guarding. I think that the mafia needs to beat that number in order for their kill to go through. So if they targeted Langly with two attacks, and one person in my cabin is on guard, I would die. If they targeted me with one attack, I would live.
This is mostly correct. The shield is based on effective force, not simply numbers.
Does vigging a player in the night remove the guard effect from the whole cabin?
No, it does not.
Posting up the cabin lists should be a good idea, but probably not until the last possible moment before vote close. The last thing the mafia needs is a list of who's where that could lead them to decide who is an easy target on a given night. Plus it may help us to catch dem skinchangers.
once you are in a cabin, are you locked into that one for the rest of the game?
If we can float about freely between nights, we can maybe arrange things so where we get the same amount of protection across all cabins or something. I dunno. It could work
No, you are not locked into a cabin for the rest of the game.
You may change your group however you wish each day as long as it conforms to the general rules (no more than 4 people, waiting 2 nights between guarding, etc.).
I was actually thinking that just this morning! I would love to design a game that is mechanically like this to encourage soft networking, but it'd have to be a gentle not-too-punishing way. That's post game talk anyways.
I don't think he meant it would be horrible for them to know, but rather that we shouldn't disclose cabin mates until right at vote close or right afterward.
The problem with waiting is that this involves everyone in the game, so by waiting, someone could claim to have forgotten to post their list, and then people start dying and it's harder to keep up with stuff.
Personally, I don't think it's a big deal to post cabin lists up early. The main thing is to keep secret who is guarding, and how many.
Definitely. Of course, we have to assume that, by numbers, most cabins will have a mafioso in them and will therefore have access to the information anyway. No need to make it easy on them, however.
definitely think we should stick to the same cabins, except until the network is formed. Then they need to (secretly) form their own cabin, without telling their unconfirmed bunkmates.
I think that this game encourages soft networking at the same time that it harshly discourages it. I really like the mechanic.
I think, for the village, it will be best to publicly soft network cabin rosters, but no other information. Anything else is basically handing the mafia stuff that they might not know, and won't really give us an advantage.
There were several cabins that formed before the game began, which means that, hilariously, there could be cabins full of villagers, or cabins with a high majority of mafia in them by default.
The best case for the mafia is to have one member in each cabin, so they know what's going on for the most part with guard duties. The pre-game stuff could have completely messed that up, though. They can't get into some cabins, because they've already filled up before the roles went out. So there could be at least 2 cabins that do not have any mafia in them.
So the best case for us would be that one cabin has three mafia in it. They'll be totally stuck there for the first day, and the mafia's guard knowledge will be limited.
So, pray to the god of odds, I guess.
... and some poor village bastard who's stuck in a cabin with three reds.
right, which sucks for him, but would actually be really great for us.
Please don't let me die a horrible - and especially lonely - death!
This can only work if the network forms early, and I'm not sure the vig would show up different from the mafia in this game, if there even is one.
You can't secretly make a network cabin unless it's public knowledge that there's a network.
why? All the network has to do is keep it under wraps that they are formed.
A seer seers two villagers. The third night, they continue to tell their established cabins that they are rooming with them, but their actual order pm is to bunk with the confirmed villagers.
No one would know but them that they were rooming together. The people that think they are rooming with them would have no idea unless they were told.