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The Falkland Islands: Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Tell Argentina to STFU

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Posts

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    If it's white guilt it's stupidly placed white guilt since the Argentine government is about as Native American as the US government.

    Colonialism!

    Lh96QHG.png
  • Venkman90Venkman90 regular Registered User regular
    If it's white guilt it's stupidly placed white guilt since the Argentine government is about as Native American as the US government.

    Colonialism!

    I read all your posts in Toby Zieglers voice by the way.

    This is a good thing.

  • Rhan9Rhan9 regular Registered User regular
    Why does anyone give two shits about what celebrities think anyways? It's not like they're any more qualified on these issues than some Joe Blow off the street.

  • Venkman90Venkman90 regular Registered User regular
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    Why does anyone give two shits about what celebrities think anyways? It's not like they're any more qualified on these issues than some Joe Blow off the street.

    I agree, but they (to the dumb of this world, who are legion) bring some kind of ridiculous validity to these issues, on top of shining a big fucking spotlight on such a stupid claim.

  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular
    Its not like the UN could do anything about the Falklands any way since the UK sits on the Security Council.

    Has Argentina even mentioned what they would do with the people who currently live on the Falklands? What rights would they have seeing as they would be a minority who speaks another language? Or are they still pretending that the Falklanders don't exist>
    Yeah America already has a ton of that bullshit . Mexico constantly demands portions of Texas back even though Texas was an independent nation long before we got it.

    I think my point was that even if Argentina did have a claim, its 200 years in the past. Bringing up claims to land that old serves nobody. Times have changed, and even if Argentina did have a claim to the Islands, the current population deserves to decide for themselves what country they want to be part of. But, since Argentina doesn't have a valid claim to the Islands, I suppose its kinda a moot point.

  • Rhan9Rhan9 regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    If we decided that Argentina did have a claim to the islands, the Dutch, the French, the Spanish and the British would have a claim to the islands before Argentina, if I recall the order of countries visiting/settling/whatever the islands. Oh, and Argentina would be made a part of Spain again, as well. So they need the STFU.

    If their claim was upheld for some spectacularly bizarre reason, they'd probably turn the Falklanders into some sort of a 2nd class citizen, until they've moved enough people in the islands to twist the demographics to the point where they can say that the islands are wholly Argentinian and there's nothing British about them.

    Rhan9 on
  • BagginsesBagginses regular __BANNED USERS regular
    The issues that would happen if Britain gave back the Falklands to Argentina could be huge. Any nation that had land taken from it with the last 200 years would sue for it back. Gone is half of the United States, Alsace-Lorraine ownership debated again, Prussia reformed, and Austria demanding the Czech Republic and Hungary back. Because self governance be damned, we had a claim at one point so your ours.

    Wait, awesome compromise. Argentina can have the Falklands when they kneel to the Spanish again!
    Yeah America already has a ton of that bullshit . Mexico constantly demands portions of Texas back even though Texas was an independent nation long before we got it.

    Wait, really? I just assumed Obama wasn't twisting their arm enough to take it. Why are we still dealing with those assholes?

  • V1mV1m regular Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    If we decided that Argentina did have a claim to the islands, the Dutch, the French, the Spanish and the British would have a claim to the islands before Argentina, if I recall the order of countries visiting/settling/whatever the islands. Oh, and Argentina would be made a part of Spain again, as well. So they need the STFU.

    If their claim was upheld for some spectacularly bizarre reason, they'd probably turn the Falklanders into some sort of a 2nd class citizen, until they've moved enough people in the islands to twist the demographics to the point where they can say that the islands are wholly Argentinian and there's nothing British about them.

    I've seen the suggestion made on this very thread that the Islanders should just go "back" to Britain since there's only a few thousand of them.

    V1m on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    Why does anyone give two shits about what celebrities think anyways? It's not like they're any more qualified on these issues than some Joe Blow off the street.

    Celebrities bring attention to issues. That's their sole use in these matters.

  • Rhan9Rhan9 regular Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    If we decided that Argentina did have a claim to the islands, the Dutch, the French, the Spanish and the British would have a claim to the islands before Argentina, if I recall the order of countries visiting/settling/whatever the islands. Oh, and Argentina would be made a part of Spain again, as well. So they need the STFU.

    If their claim was upheld for some spectacularly bizarre reason, they'd probably turn the Falklanders into some sort of a 2nd class citizen, until they've moved enough people in the islands to twist the demographics to the point where they can say that the islands are wholly Argentinian and there's nothing British about them.

    I've seen the suggestion made on this very thread that the Islanders should just go "back" to Britain since there's only a few thousand of them.

    "Going back" when your family has already been at the islands for hundreds of years is the equivalent of demanding that most Americans should "go back". Who was this silly person? I don't recall reading that, although there was somebody here at one point who drank the Kool-Aid on Argentina's claim.

  • RitchmeisterRitchmeister regular Registered User regular
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    If we decided that Argentina did have a claim to the islands, the Dutch, the French, the Spanish and the British would have a claim to the islands before Argentina, if I recall the order of countries visiting/settling/whatever the islands. Oh, and Argentina would be made a part of Spain again, as well. So they need the STFU.

    If their claim was upheld for some spectacularly bizarre reason, they'd probably turn the Falklanders into some sort of a 2nd class citizen, until they've moved enough people in the islands to twist the demographics to the point where they can say that the islands are wholly Argentinian and there's nothing British about them.

    I've seen the suggestion made on this very thread that the Islanders should just go "back" to Britain since there's only a few thousand of them.

    "Going back" when your family has already been at the islands for hundreds of years is the equivalent of demanding that most Americans should "go back". Who was this silly person? I don't recall reading that, although there was somebody here at one point who drank the Kool-Aid on Argentina's claim.

    I believe it was the user NotSeanPennHonestly.

  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    The idea of white guilt to explain Penn's views seems unhelpful

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • Rhan9Rhan9 regular Registered User regular
    Kalkino wrote: »
    The idea of white guilt to explain Penn's views seems unhelpful

    Stupidity and/or ignorance seem more likely, along with a hefty dose of grievously misdirected anti-imperialist sentiment.

  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Kalkino wrote: »
    The idea of white guilt to explain Penn's views seems unhelpful

    How so? If you're aware of more complex reason for his stance other than him being a chuckle-fuck I'd be happy to hear it.

    i write amazing erotic fiction

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    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
  • pugwashpugwash Registered User
    V1m wrote: »

    So she was waving around a UN resolution from 1985 (PDF), which if it had been anything more than a mildly worded letter would have been bumped up from the General Assembly to the Security Council (had the UK declared it was a Security Council issue) and then be promptly vetoed by the UK if it was counter to British interests.

    Of course, Security Council Resolution 502 (PDF) demanded an Argentine withdrawal from the Falklands in 1982.

  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    pugwash wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »

    So she was waving around a UN resolution from 1985 (PDF), which if it had been anything more than a mildly worded letter would have been bumped up from the General Assembly to the Security Council (had the UK declared it was a Security Council issue) and then be promptly vetoed by the UK if it was counter to British interests.

    Of course, Security Council Resolution 502 (PDF) demanded an Argentine withdrawal from the Falklands in 1982.

    It may be piss weak but it's literally all she has, so she's going to keep touting it like it's a decleration from god proclaiming the rightiousness of her cause rather than a UN footnote saying maybe a discussion should perhaps happen at some point.

    Casual on
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    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
  • Venkman90Venkman90 regular Registered User regular
    Diplomacy is not an option when you invaded not 30 years ago and got your arse handed to you. You can't say "oh snap, well we should talk now then".

  • KarlKarl regular Registered User regular
    Venkman90 wrote: »
    Diplomacy is not an option when you invaded not 30 years ago and got your arse handed to you. You can't say "oh snap, well we should talk now then".

    Diplomacy and Sean Penn is all they have now. They sure as fuck won't try a military approach. It would result in complete failure and loss of what little credibility they have.

    YOU'RE ALL BABIES.
    SO MUCH POTENTIAL TO WASTE.
    Koshian wrote: »
    JOKE'S ON YOU
    MY POTENTIAL IS ALREADY WASTED
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    Kalkino wrote: »
    The idea of white guilt to explain Penn's views seems unhelpful

    How so? If you're aware of more complex reason for his stance other than him being a chuckle-fuck I'd be happy to hear it.

    Well I don't know exactly what is meant by white guilt in this specific context, so I have been assuming a simplistic meaning that would does not make any real sense in regards to Penn, Kircheners and the Falklands issue.

    Argentina is an European settler state in the same way that the US is, that being a country formed by violent revolution prosecuted by the colonising settlers against their homeland and imperial master. Both countries then went onto expand European settlement into their neighboring hinterlands fuelled by European immigration and capital in the mid to late 19th century. Both retain strong cultural connections with their former imperial master. Both sourced vast amounts of immigrants from Southern and Central Europe. Both are still dominated by elites that represent that consensus.

    So how does white guilt play into that? If it doesn't, then what does it mean? Is white guilt only something Anglos get?

    I have some guilt as to being the beneficiary of my great great grandparents generation expropriating Maori lands and perhaps that could be white guilt

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Kalkino wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Kalkino wrote: »
    The idea of white guilt to explain Penn's views seems unhelpful

    How so? If you're aware of more complex reason for his stance other than him being a chuckle-fuck I'd be happy to hear it.

    Well I don't know exactly what is meant by white guilt in this specific context, so I have been assuming a simplistic meaning that would does not make any real sense in regards to Penn, Kircheners and the Falklands issue.

    Argentina is an European settler state in the same way that the US is, that being a country formed by violent revolution prosecuted by the colonising settlers against their homeland and imperial master. Both countries then went onto expand European settlement into their neighboring hinterlands fuelled by European immigration and capital in the mid to late 19th century. Both retain strong cultural connections with their former imperial master. Both sourced vast amounts of immigrants from Southern and Central Europe. Both are still dominated by elites that represent that consensus.

    So how does white guilt play into that? If it doesn't, then what does it mean? Is white guilt only something Anglos get?

    I have some guilt as to being the beneficiary of my great great grandparents generation expropriating Maori lands and perhaps that could be white guilt

    It's white guilt in the sense that the uneducated and ignorant believe this is a case of the big bad white man stealing the land from the "native" Argentinians. The Argentinians like to go along with this because it gives them the moral highground, it also allows them to get the UN anti colonialisim brigade involved even though this is absolutly not the kind of situation it was intended for.

    Anyone who knows anything about the history of the islands knows this is utter bollocks, the Islands were originally uninhabited then owned and settled by the UK before the modern state of Argentina even existed. We didn't steal the land off them because they never owned it. But because the UK has a grand old tradition of marching into far flung places and subjigating the natives, it's a natural assumption for ignorant people to make that this is the case here too, even although the Argentinians are the decendants of the Europeans who killed all the actual South American natives. But hey, they're kind of sort of brown and whitey is always wrong so why split hairs?

    It's moronic because not only is it white guilt, it's utterly misplaced white guilt.

    Casual on
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  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    Right, but has Penn said that? I have only read newspaper articles on his comments, rather than read his own comments or interviews, but it seems he is instead focusing on Britain as an agent of modern day colonialism.

    I may be giving him more credit than he is due, but given that he has met President Kirchener, in Argentina, I would think it unlikely that he would believe that Argentina and most Argentines were anything but European.

    I don't see that white guilt and negative views on colonialism are the same thing, although they could easily be linked.

    If you have any links i'd be happy to read them.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Sean Penn has railed against the colonial attitudes of the British.

    I imagine it is a hefty dose of white guilt combined with a nice bearnaise of not-know-of-what-he-speaks.

    A lot of people in the United States forget that every other country on our side of the planet was founded by European settlers. To the liberal minded American it is sometimes fashionable to assume that only the United States has benefited from this or indeed is run by European Whites.

    This is why everyone was confused when George Zimmerman was called "white".

    Frankly at this point white guilt is a bunch of hogwash.

    You are not responsible for the actions of your great great great great grandfather.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    But has Penn actually said that? Has he publicly elaborated on his anti colonial views to the extent that we are right to label this white guilt? I still find it hard to believe that someone who has spent time in Argentina would not be capable of recognising that Argentina is "white".

    I find it more believable that he is just a straight anti colonialist, maybe with a tinge of anglophobia.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • Lord_SnotLord_Snot Живу за выходные American ValhallaRegistered User regular
    edited June 2012
    He is anglophobic, for sure, and you can't really be anti colonialist then go, "but Argentina is fine and dandy, guys!"

    Here's an article he wrote for the guardian.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/23/sean-penn-falklands-malvinas-diplomacy-interrupted

    Lord_Snot on
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    Lord_Snot wrote: »
    He is anglophobic, for sure, and you can't really be anti colonialist then go, "but Argentina is fine and dandy, guys!"

    Here's an article he wrote for the guardian.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/23/sean-penn-falklands-malvinas-diplomacy-interrupted

    Thanks for the link LS, the horse's mouth has spoken!

    I don't really get any white guilt angle from his article, although it is more framed as a response, which presupposes familiarity with his previous comments, which he's helpfully linked.

    I wonder if I should keep reading/watching, or will I descend into madness trying to understand him?!

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Kalkino wrote: »
    Lord_Snot wrote: »
    He is anglophobic, for sure, and you can't really be anti colonialist then go, "but Argentina is fine and dandy, guys!"

    Here's an article he wrote for the guardian.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/23/sean-penn-falklands-malvinas-diplomacy-interrupted

    Thanks for the link LS, the horse's mouth has spoken!

    I don't really get any white guilt angle from his article, although it is more framed as a response, which presupposes familiarity with his previous comments, which he's helpfully linked.

    I wonder if I should keep reading/watching, or will I descend into madness trying to understand him?!

    If you stare into the abyss long enough, the abyss will start to stare back.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    It may be because I am an evil, heartless bastards of a conservative, but I also can't look at this situation without considering that Right of Conquest was accepted international law when Britain took control of the island back in the 1833 or whenever...and that it was firmly under British control when the U.N. was founded and established the concept of territorial integrity for all nations.

  • Salvation122Salvation122 regular Registered User regular
    It may be because I am an evil, heartless bastards of a conservative, but I also can't look at this situation without considering that Right of Conquest was accepted international law when Britain took control of the island back in the 1833 or whenever...and that it was firmly under British control when the U.N. was founded and established the concept of territorial integrity for all nations.

    It wouldn't have even fallen under right of conquest, it would have been Terra Nullius.

    sig.png
    Wassermelone
  • DrunenDrunen new member Registered User new member
    So I've been reading quite a lot about this matter for well over 2 hours in this thread. I am Argentinian and I know I will probably get a mouthful but I must say I agree with a lot of people. The war was based in fact, on the political status of both countries' parties. From England and Argentina. An Important fact to remember and to keep in mind, as mentioned before is that the Islands were deserted before British arrived there. They did not have to fight for a land that was not colonized or attended.

    Fact: In 1810, The republic of Argentina signed the Declaration of Independence in El Cabildo on Plaza de Mayo to liberate the colonies composed of Spanish and Italian settlers. In 1833 the Islands remained unocuppied by anyone. The lands were just another rock in the Atlantic Ocean as mentioned before. England claimed the Islands as theirs for whatever reason they wanted back in that time.

    It is until today that in Argentina, kids are still being taught that England were the bad ones. I personally strongly disagree and I was born there believe me. Argentina had no right to claim the islands in my own personal opinion due to the fact they only wanted it for military advantage on the southern Atlantic sea. Although they already had massive strategic defence lines on their eastern coasts. At the end, british fleets had better experience and tactics than Argentinians. Now, it's too bad these conflicts raise again, mostly because argentinians cannot let go.

    poshniallo
  • Captain MarcusCaptain Marcus regular now arrives the hour of actionRegistered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Resurrecting because the Falklands islanders have decided to hold a vote on self-determination, and to nobodys' surprise things are leaning towards staying with the Brits.
    170034-130310-falklands.jpg
    The islanders

    On the Argentinian side, a whopping 89% support the government's claims that the Falklands are actually the Malvinas and Argentinian territory. The opinion of Argentina on the islanders' wish to stay with Britain? "The referendum will change nothing."

    The posturing about the islands themselves is complete BS, of course, since both sides are a lot more interested in the sizable oil deposits that lie just offshore.

    What I find most interesting about this whole shebang is that Argentina is using the same "claim shit belongs to you based on complete bullshit" tactic that China is using in the South China Sea, including the bit where if you don't get your way you claim the people who actually own the land are "hurting relations". Thankfully everyone else is having none of it.

    Captain Marcus on
    ISIS delenda est
  • japanjapan regular Registered User regular
    The posturing about the islands themselves is complete BS, of course, since both sides are a lot more interested in the sizable oil deposits that lie just offshore.

    I don't think that's true. This dispute has been running since long before anybody knew that oil was there.

    KalkinoCasualenc0reKnuckle DraggerMillJusticeforPluto
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    The posturing about the islands themselves is complete BS, of course, since both sides are a lot more interested in the sizable oil deposits that lie just offshore.

    I don't think that's true. This dispute has been running since long before anybody knew that oil was there.


    Indeed. In practical economic terms the fishing industry that developed in the 1980s and the much larger British garrison have already massively changed the local economy.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • Rhan9Rhan9 regular Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    And the Argentinians have always been in the wrong on the issue. All relevant things were pretty much hashed out in this thread last year. Argentina has never given a flying fuck about A. The self-determination of the islanders, B. Historical accuracy, C. Actual legality of the issue.

    Rhan9 on
    Venkman90HonkBogartshrykeJusticeforPlutoRegina FongShadowhope
  • GaryOGaryO regular Registered User regular
    Well in a remarkable coincidence Argentina started talking about reclaiming the Falklands a couple of years ago right around the time that Rockhopper started looking for (and found) oil around the Falklands.

    Geth
  • Rhan9Rhan9 regular Registered User regular
    It is also a favorite issue of Argentinian politicians to stir up furor and patriotism(no matter how misguided) in order to distract the public from internal issues. The fact that anyone takes Argentina's "claims" seriously is absurd, but that's how it goes.

  • Venkman90Venkman90 regular Registered User regular
    Any time the Argentian economy gets bad press (often) this comes up again.

    "But guis, itz super close too us"...

    Kalkino
  • Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    Argentina has never given a flying fuck about A. The self-determination of the islanders anyone but the Argentine descendants of white Europeans, B. Historical accuracy, C. Actual legality of the issue.

    Fixed. Despite all the posturing about how the Islanders are colonists and only native populations have the right to self determination, only 10% of Argentines claim native blood. And of course the rights of native people's meant a great deal when they conquered the shit out of Patagonia, so much so that it was commemorated on the 100 peso bill until last year.

    JusticeforPluto
  • Rhan9Rhan9 regular Registered User regular
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    Argentina has never given a flying fuck about A. The self-determination of the islanders anyone but the Argentine descendants of white Europeans, B. Historical accuracy, C. Actual legality of the issue.

    Fixed. Despite all the posturing about how the Islanders are colonists and only native populations have the right to self determination, only 10% of Argentines claim native blood. And of course the rights of native people's meant a great deal when they conquered the shit out of Patagonia, so much so that it was commemorated on the 100 peso bill until last year.

    Plus, you know, the native population in the case of the Falklands happens to be penguins, and I can say with a 100% certainty that 0% of citizens of Argentina are descended from the penguin population of the Falklands.

    Mr RayRegina Fong
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Oh boy here we go...

    It seems Kirchner and Frankie have put their mutual hatred of each other aside to focus on Argentinas true enemy. The damn colonialist gringos.

    It's like she doesn't appreciate that the UK isn't catholic and we don't care any more about Frankies opinion now than we did before he obtained a large hat. Honestly I'd be more inclined to give a shit if she got the Dalai Lama on side.

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    Venkman90Knuckle DraggerJusticeforPluto
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    Oh boy here we go...

    It seems Kirchner and Frankie have put their mutual hatred of each other aside to focus on Argentinas true enemy. The damn colonialist gringos.

    It's like she doesn't appreciate that the UK isn't catholic and we don't care any more about Frankies opinion now than we did before he obtained a large hat. Honestly I'd be more inclined to give a shit if she got the Dalai Lama on side.

    I believe the normal thing to do is ask the Pope for a Papal Banner before an invasion.

    Anyway, in before "pictures or it didn't happen"

    _66461355_66461353.jpg

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
This discussion has been closed.