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Rethinking the "J"RPG
Anonymous Robot
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
[Holy God this is a long post. To any of you who read it all, I appreciate it.]
We all know them, and some of us love them. The distinctly Japanese RPGs, with characters standing in lines opposing each other in way resembling colonial-era warfare, stepping forward one at a time to perform some kind of action and then gallantly (or foolishly) allowing the next in line to do so.
These games used to enthrall me. When I was younger, I consumed FFIV-IX, Xenogears, Chrono Cross, Legend of Legaia, et al.
Now, though, they frustrate me and bore me to tears. As a genre, I find the gameplay to be extremely antiquated. I was excited to hear that FFXII had tinkered with the combat formula into something of a hybrid between realtime and turnbased, that there were no random encounters, and that the hamfisted romance/apocalypse plot had been dropped in favor of a more subtle, smaller-scale political plot.
I played it, and it wholly turned me off. Yes, there were some good things. I never got far enough to comment upon the plot. I enjoyed the logic paths you can program your AI teammates with. I kind of liked the grid system. I liked being able to see my enemies- though you usually can't avoid them in any way. I liked the chain system. I liked being able to move where I want, but it almost never made a difference; enemies were guaranteed to hit no matter how far away you are, so long as they were originally in range when they began their attack. I found that it was much like playing an MMORPG by yourself. I found myself trekking through nearly-identical environments (Sewer tunnel, tram shaft, crystal mines...) and being forced to fight every enemy I came across. It was wholly monotonous. I would perform an action and then wait, watching as my enemies and allies did this and that, and I milled about while my action bar refilled. It was boring and repetitive, and I felt as if my skill had no bearing on how the game played out.
But time and time again I am drawn to this genre, perhaps by the lure of epic-scale gameplay, orchestral soundtrack, large variety in items, etc.
Sifting through my GBA games, I found Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga. It was a game I'd played four years ago but never finished, and I remembered it as another JRPG that I never had the willpower to finish. For whatever reason, I turned it on and entered a battle. And by God, it was fun! This got me to thinking, what made it so different? All that was really new was a few button presses. But the smaller touches began to stand out to me. I started thinking about updating the way RPGs work as a whole.
1.) "We stand apart as a team, united individually!" In the standard RPG, your heroes stand in a line. They share an enemy. Apart from that, they're strangers. Sure, you get a healer character. But that's just her (it's almost always a she) role. Maybe you have a character that has the ability to shield others, but it's a gimmick. There is little to no interaction between your allies, they simply fight at the same time. Their strategies are independent of one another.
Mario and Luigi nod to one another as they begin battle. Mario handles the enemies that are weak to fire, and Luigi handles those that are weak to lightning. Mario picks up Luigi by the ankles and begins to spin him around, tossing him as a projectile at the enemy. Luigi is hit, and Mario tosses him a mushroom. Mario falls. Rather than letting him lie there, Luigi hefts his brother onto his back. It slows him down, but he won't let them attack the helpless Mario. Luigi then stoops down, opens his brother's mouth, and makes him swallow a 1-up.
These are small touches, but they come together to add a lot to the sense that these two are a team. It really looks like they're working together (which is aided by animation that adds character without being long or repetitive) and I get a sense that their strategies require one another. (And so they do- without one or the other, certain moves are unavailable, it becomes harder to dodge attacks, and one must rely upon himself for items).
This is one thing I realized from playing Superstar Saga. Put in practice, it's comical. But it doesn't have to be that way. It all depends upon the animation, the art style, and the moves used. Combo attacks can be performed in all manner of ways, and it's something of a heroic image to have one character carrying a wounded ally with him or her. Stooping to apply first aid adds a sense of teamwork.
2) "Casting Poison is kind of my thing. Why? I don't know, I was born that way." Class "restrictions" are just that. Traditional stat leveling is static, and in this way it makes the game static. The more damage I shirk off, the higher my defense should grow over time. The more damage I take, the more HP I get. Equipment proficiencies grow through equipment use. Do I cast a lot of healing spells? Then my magic power grows, and I get more healing spells. Through dynamic growth, I become a healer archetype. But I can always change, given enough time. This mimics the more "Western" RPG style. It also allows for character variation. You think Fighter, Mage, Thief, Healer. Think of your surprise when you get close to a mage and he/she cracks a vial of acid over your head, or that Fighter grabs your purse.
3) "Are you crazy, man? Get back in line!" This is the worst offender when it comes to making the game seem static. Characters, on their turn, are suddenly filled with life (the contrast to this is that every other character is not a living entity) and spring forward, doing their charge with a flash and a boom, and then sink back and fall still again.
The way I envision it, a character should move, act, and end their turn. This sounds like it's nearing SRPG, but it's actually closer to D&D. A character with a higher speed moves further in a turn. You can choose to give up an action to move further. With a balanced team, this won't become a shuffling game of cat and mouse. Is an enemy faster than you? Time to draw your bows and rifles, and charge your spells. This makes ranged attacks unique from melee attacks, whereas in traditional RPGs they are exactly the same. Also, it makes you think about which enemy is safe to engage- if you get close to them and attack, you're right by them for the next round. Suddenly, large enemies are more formidable than small ones. Strategies arise like flanking bonuses (again, teamwork) and staying together for defensive bonuses, combo attacks, and aiding allies with items. Skirmish formation will make area attacks less effective. Hiding weaker characters behind a front rank protects them. Characters with spears gain unique abilities (set defense!) and the like.
4)"Stand still so I can hit you!" What the Hell? This is bad. Bad. It is not fun to watch your enemy leap around and damage you. It makes the game boring, and it makes you feel helpless, removing your sense of involvement from the game.
In Superstar Saga, you can jump over enemy attacks and even counterattack. (Your enemy can sometimes do the same.) This makes the battles fun. It also adds the player's actual skill into the way the battle plays out, rather than a decision making/number crunching scenario.
Imagine a swordsman running to another, who has a choice- guard himself and hopefully reduce damage (defense dependent- and does he/she have a shield?) or try to parry (Dependent on agility and equipment. Harder to do, but gives a chance for counterattack. Good luck doing this with a bow, however.) Careful button timing determines success or failure, but stats and other variables change how long of a time you're alloted or how successful you are.
5) "You want to be a wizard? Well, can you throw a brick?" Magic in JRPG's is usually treated the same as any other move. This removes the wonder and exoticness of magic. Spice it up. Maybe a character learns spells from studying tomes. Maybe they need a turn (or a number of turns, depending on spell strength) of uninterrupted concentration to complete the invocation. Suddenly, the fighter must hang back and protect the wizard. Maybe spells take material components. Perhaps two wizards can collaborate and strengthen or even mix spells. If you want to go really wild, maybe the effectiveness of a spell is based on a brief rythym segment.
6) "Sneak attack!" No more random encounters. It adds nothing to the game but a sense of frustration. A handful of JRPG's let you see your enemy beforehand, but some of these make the enemies charge at you (this is okay with enemy soldiers, bad with benign slimes) headfirst. Let me sneak around or even outrun enemies. If I attack an enemy's back, I should get first attack and more damage. (Earthbound applies here.)
We all know them, and some of us love them. The distinctly Japanese RPGs, with characters standing in lines opposing each other in way resembling colonial-era warfare, stepping forward one at a time to perform some kind of action and then gallantly (or foolishly) allowing the next in line to do so.
These games used to enthrall me. When I was younger, I consumed FFIV-IX, Xenogears, Chrono Cross, Legend of Legaia, et al.
Now, though, they frustrate me and bore me to tears. As a genre, I find the gameplay to be extremely antiquated. I was excited to hear that FFXII had tinkered with the combat formula into something of a hybrid between realtime and turnbased, that there were no random encounters, and that the hamfisted romance/apocalypse plot had been dropped in favor of a more subtle, smaller-scale political plot.
I played it, and it wholly turned me off. Yes, there were some good things. I never got far enough to comment upon the plot. I enjoyed the logic paths you can program your AI teammates with. I kind of liked the grid system. I liked being able to see my enemies- though you usually can't avoid them in any way. I liked the chain system. I liked being able to move where I want, but it almost never made a difference; enemies were guaranteed to hit no matter how far away you are, so long as they were originally in range when they began their attack. I found that it was much like playing an MMORPG by yourself. I found myself trekking through nearly-identical environments (Sewer tunnel, tram shaft, crystal mines...) and being forced to fight every enemy I came across. It was wholly monotonous. I would perform an action and then wait, watching as my enemies and allies did this and that, and I milled about while my action bar refilled. It was boring and repetitive, and I felt as if my skill had no bearing on how the game played out.
But time and time again I am drawn to this genre, perhaps by the lure of epic-scale gameplay, orchestral soundtrack, large variety in items, etc.
Sifting through my GBA games, I found Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga. It was a game I'd played four years ago but never finished, and I remembered it as another JRPG that I never had the willpower to finish. For whatever reason, I turned it on and entered a battle. And by God, it was fun! This got me to thinking, what made it so different? All that was really new was a few button presses. But the smaller touches began to stand out to me. I started thinking about updating the way RPGs work as a whole.
1.) "We stand apart as a team, united individually!" In the standard RPG, your heroes stand in a line. They share an enemy. Apart from that, they're strangers. Sure, you get a healer character. But that's just her (it's almost always a she) role. Maybe you have a character that has the ability to shield others, but it's a gimmick. There is little to no interaction between your allies, they simply fight at the same time. Their strategies are independent of one another.
Mario and Luigi nod to one another as they begin battle. Mario handles the enemies that are weak to fire, and Luigi handles those that are weak to lightning. Mario picks up Luigi by the ankles and begins to spin him around, tossing him as a projectile at the enemy. Luigi is hit, and Mario tosses him a mushroom. Mario falls. Rather than letting him lie there, Luigi hefts his brother onto his back. It slows him down, but he won't let them attack the helpless Mario. Luigi then stoops down, opens his brother's mouth, and makes him swallow a 1-up.
These are small touches, but they come together to add a lot to the sense that these two are a team. It really looks like they're working together (which is aided by animation that adds character without being long or repetitive) and I get a sense that their strategies require one another. (And so they do- without one or the other, certain moves are unavailable, it becomes harder to dodge attacks, and one must rely upon himself for items).
This is one thing I realized from playing Superstar Saga. Put in practice, it's comical. But it doesn't have to be that way. It all depends upon the animation, the art style, and the moves used. Combo attacks can be performed in all manner of ways, and it's something of a heroic image to have one character carrying a wounded ally with him or her. Stooping to apply first aid adds a sense of teamwork.
2) "Casting Poison is kind of my thing. Why? I don't know, I was born that way." Class "restrictions" are just that. Traditional stat leveling is static, and in this way it makes the game static. The more damage I shirk off, the higher my defense should grow over time. The more damage I take, the more HP I get. Equipment proficiencies grow through equipment use. Do I cast a lot of healing spells? Then my magic power grows, and I get more healing spells. Through dynamic growth, I become a healer archetype. But I can always change, given enough time. This mimics the more "Western" RPG style. It also allows for character variation. You think Fighter, Mage, Thief, Healer. Think of your surprise when you get close to a mage and he/she cracks a vial of acid over your head, or that Fighter grabs your purse.
3) "Are you crazy, man? Get back in line!" This is the worst offender when it comes to making the game seem static. Characters, on their turn, are suddenly filled with life (the contrast to this is that every other character is not a living entity) and spring forward, doing their charge with a flash and a boom, and then sink back and fall still again.
The way I envision it, a character should move, act, and end their turn. This sounds like it's nearing SRPG, but it's actually closer to D&D. A character with a higher speed moves further in a turn. You can choose to give up an action to move further. With a balanced team, this won't become a shuffling game of cat and mouse. Is an enemy faster than you? Time to draw your bows and rifles, and charge your spells. This makes ranged attacks unique from melee attacks, whereas in traditional RPGs they are exactly the same. Also, it makes you think about which enemy is safe to engage- if you get close to them and attack, you're right by them for the next round. Suddenly, large enemies are more formidable than small ones. Strategies arise like flanking bonuses (again, teamwork) and staying together for defensive bonuses, combo attacks, and aiding allies with items. Skirmish formation will make area attacks less effective. Hiding weaker characters behind a front rank protects them. Characters with spears gain unique abilities (set defense!) and the like.
4)"Stand still so I can hit you!" What the Hell? This is bad. Bad. It is not fun to watch your enemy leap around and damage you. It makes the game boring, and it makes you feel helpless, removing your sense of involvement from the game.
In Superstar Saga, you can jump over enemy attacks and even counterattack. (Your enemy can sometimes do the same.) This makes the battles fun. It also adds the player's actual skill into the way the battle plays out, rather than a decision making/number crunching scenario.
Imagine a swordsman running to another, who has a choice- guard himself and hopefully reduce damage (defense dependent- and does he/she have a shield?) or try to parry (Dependent on agility and equipment. Harder to do, but gives a chance for counterattack. Good luck doing this with a bow, however.) Careful button timing determines success or failure, but stats and other variables change how long of a time you're alloted or how successful you are.
5) "You want to be a wizard? Well, can you throw a brick?" Magic in JRPG's is usually treated the same as any other move. This removes the wonder and exoticness of magic. Spice it up. Maybe a character learns spells from studying tomes. Maybe they need a turn (or a number of turns, depending on spell strength) of uninterrupted concentration to complete the invocation. Suddenly, the fighter must hang back and protect the wizard. Maybe spells take material components. Perhaps two wizards can collaborate and strengthen or even mix spells. If you want to go really wild, maybe the effectiveness of a spell is based on a brief rythym segment.
6) "Sneak attack!" No more random encounters. It adds nothing to the game but a sense of frustration. A handful of JRPG's let you see your enemy beforehand, but some of these make the enemies charge at you (this is okay with enemy soldiers, bad with benign slimes) headfirst. Let me sneak around or even outrun enemies. If I attack an enemy's back, I should get first attack and more damage. (Earthbound applies here.)
Sigs shouldn't be higher than 80 pixels - Elki.
Anonymous Robot on
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I just finished playing Radiata Stories and had a great time with it. The battle system was different, but not very deep, yet it was cool cause it was different.
Then again, there is games like the SMT series that play very old school but bring things like status changes into the equation. It actually makes you think rather than "MASH X UNTIL THE ENEMY DIES."
This is just a tribute.
Nothing wrong with a bit of powerlevelling or grinding, most jrpgs other than the FFs aren't really known for their stories.
Problem is those damn random encounters.
Funny, you typed this just as I finished amending my list.
I'm kinda like you, in a way. I saw an RPG (Particularly a JRPG, or one that mimicked the type) and jumped all over it. FFVII, FFIX, and Legend of Legaia were great fun. And as a side note, I thought I was one of the few that knew Legend of Legaia existed. But as time passed I found that the JRPG archetype was simply stale and boring. Plots and gameplay mechanics seemed to just carry over to most games in the genre.
That said, your various points hit right on the mark, and I like a few of your suggestions. We should just grab some soap boxes and stand outside of Squeenix's HQ or whatever other company feels like RPGs aren't allowed to stray from this formula.
Secondly, copied from another thread:
Meh, what else are you going to do? Read trite text about some 15 year old's quest to save the world from a generic evil?
I always liked the animations in the FF games.
These days I generally shy away from the more generic JRPGs, and instead look for games that try to mix things up. As long as developers are willing to try out interesting ideas, I think I’ll still find enjoyment.
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JRPGs have been moved away from that for a long time now.
0087-5796-7152 (Jeremy, Heliord)
Can't argue with that. Probably why I stopped playing JRPGs.
Animation = good
obscenely long unskippable animations that play every time you perform an action in combat = bad
Oh, I have many many things to say about the plot of JRPG's. The fact that they are considered the pinnacle of game storytelling is laughable at best. But this thread is about gameplay.
I haven't seen a game that *requires* powerleveling in a long time, but I've only played a small subset of jrpgs. Anyone want to give some examples? For me, FF1 is the only game that comes to mind, and I suppose it counts, but 15 minutes at the peninsula of power isn't too bad.
edit: er, I just remembered DQ8 too. lol.
It's simultaneous a horrible indication of what's wrong with game storytelling, what we expect of game storytelling and what most people think is a good story.
I wholeheartedly disagree that there should be no random encounters. They are almost the only thing that makes the game a "game" outside of battle, rather than just advancing an avatar through a path and pressing a button to talk. If you're going to get rid of random encounters, then there better be something in there to make me feel like I'm playing a game outside of battle.
Also, turn-based combat FTW. I like the feel of it compared with the frantic feel of Tales of Symphonia or Zelda. Almost like a strategy or board game, but it can be hectic at times, as in Final Fantasy VI boss battles.
One more thing, make status effect spells meaningful or get rid of them entirely. No more Blind, Stone, Doom, or Death if they only work against enemies you can dispatch with a single attack.
That is one of the best selling RPGs ever in Japan.
Gameplay also needs more exploration. In FFX, there was a path from where I currently was to where I needed to go that I couldn't stray from except in one or two cases.
Isn't that kinda sad?
There are the general healer/mage/fighter characters, but because of the fact that you have involvement over your attacks outside of statistics is definitely something interesting. The first game also features probably the best jRPG plot out there...not out of complexity, not out of length, but out of charm.
Much as I like Earthbound from what I've played of it, there could still be more things to do outside of battle. It would seem kind of boring just walking around from building to building and back. Earthbound had some interesting adventure-game like features that I'd like to see more of though. Wasn't there a phone you could call or something? FFVII had the amusement park, which was a pretty cool idea.
A couple of things...
1) I HATED FFXII. Well, I didn't hate the plot of the game, I actually really liked it and thought it was the best plot since the SNES days. I just hated the battle system and the license system. Battles seemed too much like a MMORPG and the fact that you could have every character specialize in everything just ruined character development for me. Also, the battle system made me seem like I was observing the game, not really playing it. Anyway, I only made it though about 1/2 of the game before quitting in disgust. Maybe I'll go back to it one day, maybe not... Point being, I've been a FF fan for a long time and it's always seemed like the series has been on forefront of JRPG innovation. I just hope that FFXII isn't the start of a trend as far as the battle system goes.
2) Along with #1, I've found myself playing more and more action JRPGs recently. Stuff like the Tales series and Kingdom Hearts. While I like a turn-based battle system in my games I find that the action type battle systems really break up the game nicely. I think Tales of... does it best, by the way and I'd like to see more games copy this style.
3) The best RPG series of all time for me is Shin Megami Tensei. It breaks away from the mold of the typical fantasy RPG and makes the game very "adult" in nature. I also think it has one of the best turn-based battle systems around.
4) One of my biggest gripes with the genre now isn't the battle system but the save system. Why can't programmers create a game where you can save at any time, instead of using save points? It's really, really noticeable in games like Kingdom Hearts and the SMT series and I find that it's just a way of artificially increasing the difficulty of the game. Really, there's no need to do that. If you want to make a difficult game, make the game difficult on it's on merits not because of artificial systems.
5) I enjoy random encounters but I think there is a fine line between fun and annoying. Blue Dragon seems to have found a good way around this by letting you skip encounters that you would have a high probability of winning...
No Random Encountering, Allies interact, AND all the fighting takes place right in the area.
The same was true for FFX. Why shouldn't a character be able to specialize in anything? It isn't like a characters abilities come into a play much in most RPGs anyway. It also allows me to use characters that I would normally never use.
ATB system and what else in terms of gameplay before FFXII?
Allowing the Player to save at any point completely eradicates a large portion of the difficulty in a JRPG.
If I can save after each and every fight, I don't have nearly as much to worry about. Am I low on MP? Fine I'll save and work my way one fight at a time to the exit. I can retry as often as needed, and just wait for luck to side with me.
I used to do this in FPSes all the time. Quick save before every firefight, and then just reload until it went smoothly. That makes the game way too easy. Restrict save points, but don't make them TOO spread out.
FFXIV: Tchel Fay
Nintendo ID: Tortalius
Steam: Tortalius
Stream: twitch.tv/tortalius
Thats the only non-FF Jrpg I've ever really loved (or even liked).
1. Why must children always be the main characters. Yeah, I'm old, get off my lawn.
2. Ease us into the game. Don't make us sit through yet another 45 minutes of tutorial that we've all played 100 times. There are more creative ways to teach a game. This goes double for dialog. Ease us into the dialog. When we get our first hour or two with the game we don't want it to be 75% reading text. To make matters worse, this dialog is often shallow crap spewed from the children mentioned in #1.
Edit: I shouldn't have use "us" and "we" in the above. Of course I meant "me" and "I".
Guess they are just catering to the primary audience. Though, when I was a kid, I didn't particularly like kid heroes in my games.
And no, I didn't like Wesley Crusher, either.
Damn that Japanese AD&D.
Tabletop D&D doesn't....really. The mechanics are just there to give a basis to make your own game. Its freeform.
But yes, JRPGs were originally heavily inspired by it.
JRPG is a word that brings a certain genre to mind. This topic has no ill will towards Japanese game development, just a particular way of designing a genre that is distinctly Japanese.
Also, to the above posts- please, let's keep this gameplay focused. If you want to discuss writing quality, take it to another thread.
If you have a GM that manages to spin an epic tale out of every encounter with goblins or kobolds, then you have a point. Myself and my players, we got kind of jaded after about the 27th, to say nothing of the hundred and fifty ninth.
I don't think it would be totally unfair to say that big plot twists are the signs of amateur "compelling" literature. Should it really take a "I never saw that coming" moment to make a book, movie or game interesting and good?
Get a better GM?
Just like a carpenter with great tools can make shitty furniture, a bad GM can take a great toolset (D&D) and use it to create shitty games. D&D is what you make it.