He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
Void Slayer and MrBody each delcare Action Cards to play. Both players reveal their cards, which will be resolved in order of play:
The Muaat play Emergency Repairs
Choose a system. Immediately repair all of your Dreadnoughts and War Suns in the chosen system. Play: At any time.
The Yin play Direct Hit
Destroy an opponent's damaged ship. Play: Immediately after the ship has been damaged in a Space Battle in which you are participating.
Will anyone play a Sabotage on either of these cards?
So I poured over the FAQ and there's no mention of it. The BGG forums and FFG forums have player theories but no official ruling.
I'm reading the direct hit card as emergency repairs would have no effect on it. The card says to play after a ship "has been damaged in a space battle in which you are participating" which then flat out destroys the ship. The condition is fulfilled regardless of whether the damage is repaired or not. There is no mention that the ship has to currently be damaged and play order would not matter.
You play it after the ship has been damaged, but it destroys an opponent's damaged ship. So if the ship is not damaged it can not destroy it.
I played mine assuming that was the case, knowing about that card, and that I would be first in order of actions, so would really like to know.
Does not really matter in the long run though.
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
Based on my research, the play order here is based on the ruling of page 23 of the base rulebook. Both trigger simultaneously, and are resolved in order of play. Since Direct Hit only destroys damaged ships, if Emergency Repairs triggers, then the now-undamaged Dreadnoughts or War Suns are immune: the Direct Hit is expended without effect. If the order of play were in the other direction, Emergency Repairs would then have no effect, since Direct Hit would destroy its targeted ship beforehand.
Okay it's been a while since I've looked at these, but according to fancy pancy English rules, "has been" is present perfect progressive verb tense defined as "an action that began in the past, continues in the present, and may continue into the future." So then yeah Direct Hit would not affect a presently undamaged ship.
Based on my research, the play order here is based on the ruling of page 23 of the base rulebook. Both trigger simultaneously, and are resolved in order of play. Since Direct Hit only destroys damaged ships, if Emergency Repairs triggers, then the now-undamaged Dreadnoughts or War Suns are immune: the Direct Hit is expended without effect. If the order of play were in the other direction, Emergency Repairs would then have no effect, since Direct Hit would destroy its targeted ship beforehand.
Wouldn't I get to keep the card? If Emergency Repairs happens first then the card can't be played in the first place.
Wouldn't I get to keep the card? If Emergency Repairs happens first then the card can't be played in the first place.
That is the one thing I'm not sure of, and for some reason all the example questions online don't resolve this, either due to the fact that they have a scenario where both cards have an effect but the order matters, or they simply fail to address the question completely. To me, the card has been played due to the fact that the conditions for doing so were satisfied at the time of its play. Due to simultaneous actions, however, the effect may no longer apply once it comes around for resolution. I can certainly see a resolution in the other direction where the card returns to the hand, but I'll need to be convinced with more evidence.
I guess? Page 23 is very confusingly worded. It says that players "may announce they wish to play an action card" then say that cards are "revealed then resolved in order of play". It's not clear when a card is actually played. "Resolved" could mean "play" or it could not.
Though if we're going by the "Play" and "Effect" parts of the cards being totally separate, then technically it means that the "Destroy an opponent's damaged ship" effect of direct hit can be used against ANY damaged ship on the board after the Play condition is met in a battle you're in. Again the wording is very confusing because although the Play portion is supposed to come first, it's referencing the Effect portion like it's already happened.
Regardless, I am arching my eyebrows and shaking my fist at the designers for not clarifying such an obvious conflict. The FAQ even came out after both expansions and these cards are in the base game!
From what I've read in forums, out of all the action cards that can be played at the same time by different players, these are the only two that conflict with each other. They went and wrote a section for dealing with the possibility of a conflict but not the actual sole conflict! The FAQ clarifies the effect of one specific racial tech against Direct Hit, but not a very common action card!
Troublesome indeed. One house ruling I've seen is that in the situation of Direct Hit against Emergency Repairs that the two cards cancel each other out; the targeted ship remains damaged but all other Dreadnoughts and War Suns in the system become repaired. It's an outcome that seems fair, especially in light of the fact that this is the rarest of cases where the simultaneous play has a direct and obvious conflict. However, I can't say that I like exceptions like this. If there is player consensus on how to handle things, I'm willing to listen, but you know where I stand right now.
I dunno. Direct Hit definitely needs a rewording. It's written backwards. The FAQ tells you to add the part about "in a Space
Battle in which you participate” to the play condition only while leaving the effect portion untouched, implying the condition is local but the effect board wide. It's obvious that something, if not multiple things are off with its intention.
All the cards are written backwards then, because the effects are typed before their play conditions. Some cards do indeed read a bit strangely because of this, but their intents are mostly clear. I feel like it's pretty clear that the intent of the card is that you play it "immediately after [an opponent's] ship has been damaged in a Space Battle in which you are participating" and that its effect is to "destroy [the targeted] damaged ship". You might be reading into things a bit too much (which I don't blame you for since it is your battle) with your local/global argument - I don't buy it. That clarification was so that other players could not play Direct Hit into their allies' battles, and not for any other reason I can see.
Of course, the way I put together the phrasing also opens itself up to the interpretation "destroy [the targeted] ship", which renders Emergency Repairs null in a simultaneous action situation no matter what the order is. And that too is a bit problematic. *sigh* It appears more and more that, even though it does not follow the standard rules, following the house rule may be the best move since it gives both cards meaning and avoids the direct order of operations conflict. I'll give it more thought overnight.
Troublesome indeed. One house ruling I've seen is that in the situation of Direct Hit against Emergency Repairs that the two cards cancel each other out; the targeted ship remains damaged but all other Dreadnoughts and War Suns in the system become repaired. It's an outcome that seems fair, especially in light of the fact that this is the rarest of cases where the simultaneous play has a direct and obvious conflict. However, I can't say that I like exceptions like this. If there is player consensus on how to handle things, I'm willing to listen, but you know where I stand right now.
We could live with the two cards cancelling each other out as described here.
Alternately, if the idea is to resolve the cards "in order of play", then maybe we could use Initiative order to determine which card takes effect first?
Currently Playing:
The Division, Warframe (XB1)
GT: Tanith 6227
No sabotage from Creuss. The net cancelling each other out house rule make some sense. Otherwise the Emergency Repair is acting as a sabotage to direct hit, which is a function that should only be allowed by the sabotage card.
Alternately, if the idea is to resolve the cards "in order of play", then maybe we could use Initiative order to determine which card takes effect first?
This was always going to be the case, the question was in the interpretation of the Direct Hit card and whether or not it would be exhausted if its effects did not apply after Emergency Repairs.
Otherwise the Emergency Repair is acting as a sabotage to direct hit, which is a function that should only be allowed by the sabotage card.
It's not quite like Sabotage, since if the initiative orders are reversed, Emergency Repairs cannot do anything in reaction to a Direct Hit. One key here is that all cards to be played simultaneously are face down until revealed, so reactionary play doesn't quite apply.
Ultimately, I think the easiest option is to simply go with the house rule and allow the two cards to cancel each others' effects. It's not correct at all, but it does mean that each player will still have had a reason to play their card knowing what their opponent played, which is a better outcome than the simultaneous action resolution in terms of play motivation.
So we move on to the second round of combat - MrBody, will the Yin be exercising their kamikaze ability?
It's not quite like Sabotage, since if the initiative orders are reversed, Emergency Repairs cannot do anything in reaction to a Direct Hit.
Well, if there are multiple damaged ships then Emergency Repairs would still affect the other ships. Direct Hit can only ever affect one ship. ER would still have situations where it had an effect while DR would always be trumped.
Right, I was just addressing SeGaTai's suggestion that Emergency Repairs was acting like a Sabotage effect.
Round 3 - Second Battle at The Lucky Lady
Battle Round 1 Casualties: Yin removes 2 Fighters and 2 Destroyers.
Muaat removes 1 Destroyer and damages his War Sun.
Muaat plays action card "Emergency Repairs" (AC 1 --> 0) and Yin plays action card "Direct Hit" (AC 4 --> 3); as per the house rule their effects cancel out and there is no change to the situation.
Pre-Battle Round 2: Yin uses their racial ability to sacrifice their Destroyer to hit the Muaat War Sun, which is destroyed.
Yin has 1 Cruiser, 1 Carrier.
Muaat has 1 Cruiser.
Actually I'm glad that happened. I was considering making a run at Mecatol Rex this turn but now see that it's kind of pointless going for it this early.
Activate Quaan, move Flagship with 4 Fighters. Exhaust Muaat to build a Space Dock.
TG/AC/PC: 0/1/0
SA/FS/CP: 0/3/0
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
ERROR: No Command Counters in Command Pool to spend. You started the round with 1 counter in CP, and you just used it to activate The Lucky Lady on your last turn. Try again?
Activate the primary ability of (1)Leadership. Place 2 Counters in Strategic Allocation and one in Fleet. Exhaust Centaur(3I) and Gral(1I) to place Two Counters in Command.
Everyone may now play on the secondary.
TG/AC/PC: 0/1/0
SA/FS/CP: 2/4/2
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
Posts
Round 3 - Second Battle at The Lucky Lady
Pre-Combat: Yin Destroyer Anti-Fighter Barrage - 9#1d10+3 = {8,5,5,6,8 < 9, 9,11,9,10 >= 9}, 4 hits. Muaat removes his four Fighters.
Muaat Destroyer Anti-Fighter Barrage - 2d10 = {4 < 9, 9 = 9}, 1 hit. Yin removes 1 Fighter.
Yin has 1 Cruiser, 3 Destroyers, 1 Carrier, 2 Fighters.
Muaat has 1 War Sun, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer.
Battle Round 1: Yin - Cruiser 1d10+2 = {11 > 7}, Destroyers 3#1d10+2 = {7,5,6 < 9}, Carrier 1d10+1 = {5 < 9}, Fighters 2#1d10+1 = {7 < 9, 11 > 9}, 2 hits. Void Slayer, how will you assign the hits?
Muaat - War Sun 3d10 = {9,7,5 > 3}, Cruiser 1d10 = {2 < 7}, Destroyer 1d10 = {9 = 9}, 4 hits. MrBody, how will you assign the hits?
(There are some minor mistakes in the original die roll amount and bonuses, but they have been corrected for this post.)
Lose 2 fighters + 2 destroyers
Wait, why did Muaat get 2 dice for anti-fighter barrage from one destroyer with no defense turret tech?
That's how it normally works (See page 30 of base rulebook). The Automated Defense Turrets technology simply makes the barrage better.
The Muaat play Emergency Repairs
Choose a system. Immediately repair all of your Dreadnoughts and War Suns in the chosen system.
Play: At any time.
The Yin play Direct Hit
Destroy an opponent's damaged ship.
Play: Immediately after the ship has been damaged in a Space Battle in which you are participating.
Will anyone play a Sabotage on either of these cards?
- Terence McKenna
The Black Hole of Cygnus X-1
- Terence McKenna
I'm reading the direct hit card as emergency repairs would have no effect on it. The card says to play after a ship "has been damaged in a space battle in which you are participating" which then flat out destroys the ship. The condition is fulfilled regardless of whether the damage is repaired or not. There is no mention that the ship has to currently be damaged and play order would not matter.
I played mine assuming that was the case, knowing about that card, and that I would be first in order of actions, so would really like to know.
Does not really matter in the long run though.
In that case though...
Wouldn't I get to keep the card? If Emergency Repairs happens first then the card can't be played in the first place.
That is the one thing I'm not sure of, and for some reason all the example questions online don't resolve this, either due to the fact that they have a scenario where both cards have an effect but the order matters, or they simply fail to address the question completely. To me, the card has been played due to the fact that the conditions for doing so were satisfied at the time of its play. Due to simultaneous actions, however, the effect may no longer apply once it comes around for resolution. I can certainly see a resolution in the other direction where the card returns to the hand, but I'll need to be convinced with more evidence.
Though if we're going by the "Play" and "Effect" parts of the cards being totally separate, then technically it means that the "Destroy an opponent's damaged ship" effect of direct hit can be used against ANY damaged ship on the board after the Play condition is met in a battle you're in. Again the wording is very confusing because although the Play portion is supposed to come first, it's referencing the Effect portion like it's already happened.
Regardless, I am arching my eyebrows and shaking my fist at the designers for not clarifying such an obvious conflict. The FAQ even came out after both expansions and these cards are in the base game!
From what I've read in forums, out of all the action cards that can be played at the same time by different players, these are the only two that conflict with each other. They went and wrote a section for dealing with the possibility of a conflict but not the actual sole conflict! The FAQ clarifies the effect of one specific racial tech against Direct Hit, but not a very common action card!
Battle in which you participate” to the play condition only while leaving the effect portion untouched, implying the condition is local but the effect board wide. It's obvious that something, if not multiple things are off with its intention.
Of course, the way I put together the phrasing also opens itself up to the interpretation "destroy [the targeted] ship", which renders Emergency Repairs null in a simultaneous action situation no matter what the order is. And that too is a bit problematic. *sigh* It appears more and more that, even though it does not follow the standard rules, following the house rule may be the best move since it gives both cards meaning and avoids the direct order of operations conflict. I'll give it more thought overnight.
Alternately, if the idea is to resolve the cards "in order of play", then maybe we could use Initiative order to determine which card takes effect first?
The Division, Warframe (XB1)
GT: Tanith 6227
This was always going to be the case, the question was in the interpretation of the Direct Hit card and whether or not it would be exhausted if its effects did not apply after Emergency Repairs.
It's not quite like Sabotage, since if the initiative orders are reversed, Emergency Repairs cannot do anything in reaction to a Direct Hit. One key here is that all cards to be played simultaneously are face down until revealed, so reactionary play doesn't quite apply.
Ultimately, I think the easiest option is to simply go with the house rule and allow the two cards to cancel each others' effects. It's not correct at all, but it does mean that each player will still have had a reason to play their card knowing what their opponent played, which is a better outcome than the simultaneous action resolution in terms of play motivation.
So we move on to the second round of combat - MrBody, will the Yin be exercising their kamikaze ability?
Destroyer kamikaze into (damaged?) Warsun.
Well, if there are multiple damaged ships then Emergency Repairs would still affect the other ships. Direct Hit can only ever affect one ship. ER would still have situations where it had an effect while DR would always be trumped.
Round 3 - Second Battle at The Lucky Lady
Battle Round 1 Casualties: Yin removes 2 Fighters and 2 Destroyers.
Muaat removes 1 Destroyer and damages his War Sun.
Muaat plays action card "Emergency Repairs" (AC 1 --> 0) and Yin plays action card "Direct Hit" (AC 4 --> 3); as per the house rule their effects cancel out and there is no change to the situation.
Pre-Battle Round 2: Yin uses their racial ability to sacrifice their Destroyer to hit the Muaat War Sun, which is destroyed.
Yin has 1 Cruiser, 1 Carrier.
Muaat has 1 Cruiser.
Battle Round 2: Yin - Cruiser 1d10+2 = {11 > 7}, Carrier 1d10+1 = {6 < 9}, 1 hit. Muaat Cruiser is destroyed.
Muaat 1d10 = {5 < 7}, miss.
Combat is resolved in favor of the Yin.
It is now the L1z1x turn.
L1z1x PASSES.
- Terence McKenna
Sorry it took so much to get it done, MrBody. For what it's worth, we thank you.
- Terence McKenna
Activate Quaan, move Flagship with 4 Fighters. Exhaust Muaat to build a Space Dock.
TG/AC/PC: 0/1/0
SA/FS/CP: 0/3/0
Muaat
Activate the primary ability of (1)Leadership. Place 2 Counters in Strategic Allocation and one in Fleet. Exhaust Centaur(3I) and Gral(1I) to place Two Counters in Command.
Everyone may now play on the secondary.
TG/AC/PC: 0/1/0
SA/FS/CP: 2/4/2
+1/0/+2
TG/AC/PC: 0/4/3
SA/FS/CP: 2/5/3
- Terence McKenna
You couldn't have played this Strat card earlier?
I was waiting...
I PLAY the secondary ability, exhausting Maaluuk (2I) & Lirta IV (3I) to place 1 Command Counter into CP & 1 into SA.
The Black Hole of Cygnus X-1
Creuss
I think that was the idea, play on secondary-exhaust , mallice(3I), torkan(3I) for 3 counters, 2 in fleet, 1 in command
TG/AC/PC:1/2/2/
SA/FS/CP:2/6/1