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[TRENCHES] Thursday, October 11, 2012 - Referendum

GethGeth LegionPerseus VeilRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
edited October 2012 in The Penny Arcade Hub
Referendum


Referendum
http://trenchescomic.com/comic/post/referendum

Love and Care, Forcefully Removed

Anonymous

My story isn’t a happy one.

Sometimes you find yourself on development projects. For me it was one of those AAA reboot titles for a series that hasn’t been around for years, and was still in development for an indefinite amount of time. You find yourself playing the game over and over, slowing learning the plot as new levels are finished. You get familiar with the characters, you spend all day interacting with these characters, learning their story, living their lives. Never did I expect to find myself *caring* about the game I’m working on. (You can only be so attached in QA after a couple months of the same project)

It’s rare to find yourself on a game that is truly a labor of love by the developers. You can tell they’ve all been working on required sequels and rehashed yearly releases for decades. This was a time for them to shine.

Then it starts to happen.

Crunch time comes and some producer steps in and decides the game needs to be streamlined. The next day you come in and realize the reverse is happening. Your character’s personalities are changed and new voice work is integrated. Whole levels and worlds are condensed and combined, whole story arcs removed.

The game isn’t streamlined. It’s gutted. As it gets closer to release more and more people are excited, you bracing yourself for impending disappointment. When you finally walk away you find yourself really upset. Some producer destroyed the characters for the sake of making it more “friendly” and mainstream. The developers you thought were lazy all this time were actually dealing with the heartbreak of releasing a shell of their former product.

It’s upsetting, but it’s how it goes sometimes. It’s why good developers leave good jobs to make games that aren’t trying to make a buck.


Geth on
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Posts

  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    I like the pun in the comic name.

  • Sgt.Big_BubbaloolaSgt.Big_Bubbaloola Registered User regular
    "It’s upsetting, but it’s how it goes sometimes."

    Read: Most of the time. Thank god for Kickstarter and crowd source funding. These 'producers' are normally employed and brought in by the Publisher. Money is pretty much their sole driving incentive.



    Well gosh, I suppose I might as well settle in for a nice cuppa ...... this is gonna be good!
  • PaperPrittPaperPritt Registered User regular
    "It’s upsetting, but it’s how it goes sometimes."

    Read: Most of the time. Thank god for Kickstarter and crowd source funding. These 'producers' are normally employed and brought in by the Publisher. Money is pretty much their sole driving incentive.

    Uhhhh i'm sorry that just doesn't compute. Unless you're Non-Profit Organization, your main drive is to ... actually make money? Is that like a new bad thing now? And i'm gonna have to contradict you too on the idea that kickstarters are somehow not aimed in the general direction of making money because that is also the main objective.



  • El SkidEl Skid The frozen white northRegistered User regular
    edited October 2012
    The thing with Kickstarters is that if the funding is coming from a whole bunch of regular people. The developers do not have the same pressure put on them as if it is funded by a publisher. A publisher needs the game out by a certain time, within a certain budget, and can exert some influence on the development process if it doesn't like the way things are going. "Do this or we pull your funding" is very hard to resist.

    So if a developer wants to take a few extra weeks to get the game polished, or is willing to make less money in order to put out a better product, they are MUCH more likely to get the go-ahead on a kickstarted product than they are with publishers.

    Of course developers want to make money. But they are also much more responsible for making sure that the game is well-liked and successful. Wereas if the game sucks but makes money the publishers are happy; they don't lose face or have a more difficult time getting their next project off the ground.

    El Skid on
    mrpaku wrote: »
    my name is precisionk and i'm ten tanks

    wrath God fear traitor evil
    PaperPrittThe Good Doctor TranCambiata
  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Oh Lord, Cora the White Knight again. What does she think is going to happen, they'll roll back the rollback because she pitched a fit?

    bowen wrote: »
    The bacteria in your poop exist everywhere.
    LovelyCambiata
  • PaperPrittPaperPritt Registered User regular
    El Skid wrote: »
    The thing with Kickstarters is that if the funding is coming from a whole bunch of regular people. The developers do not have the same pressure put on them as if it is funded by a publisher. A publisher needs the game out by a certain time, within a certain budget, and can exert some influence on the development process if it doesn't like the way things are going. "Do this or we pull your funding" is very hard to resist.

    So if a developer wants to take a few extra weeks to get the game polished, or is willing to make less money in order to put out a better product, they are MUCH more likely to get the go-ahead on a kickstarted product than they are with publishers.

    Of course developers want to make money. But they are also much more responsible for making sure that the game is well-liked and successful. Wereas if the game sucks but makes money the publishers are happy; they don't lose face or have a more difficult time getting their next project off the ground.

    Good points. Also your avatar earns you +1000 internet points.
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Oh Lord, Cora the White Knight again. What does she think is going to happen, they'll roll back the rollback because she pitched a fit?

    Cora was almost back into my good books but that last strip she just went right back into the CANT STAND HER zone.

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    El Skid wrote: »
    The thing with Kickstarters is that if the funding is coming from a whole bunch of regular people. The developers do not have the same pressure put on them as if it is funded by a publisher. A publisher needs the game out by a certain time, within a certain budget, and can exert some influence on the development process if it doesn't like the way things are going. "Do this or we pull your funding" is very hard to resist.

    So if a developer wants to take a few extra weeks to get the game polished, or is willing to make less money in order to put out a better product, they are MUCH more likely to get the go-ahead on a kickstarted product than they are with publishers.

    Of course developers want to make money. But they are also much more responsible for making sure that the game is well-liked and successful. Wereas if the game sucks but makes money the publishers are happy; they don't lose face or have a more difficult time getting their next project off the ground.

    On the other hand, exactly what you said can be read this way: With Kickstarters there's no accountability to anyone who actually controls the purse strings. Kickstarters usually frontload the funding to the developer, and if the developer slacks off and is a year late with delivery, there's no authority to say, "Hey, maybe you ought to go ahead and get that out the door."

    What is this I don't even.
  • RedDawnRedDawn Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    I know a lot of people are praising kickstarter, and I do like it, but how many games have come out so far that started, or were finished using kickstarter? Again I'm not saying it is bad, I'm just saying I think we don't have a good enough sample size to say that kickstarter is saving video games. Not that they necessarily needed saving in the first place.

    RedDawn on
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    RedDawn wrote: »
    I know a lot of people are praising kickstarter, and I do like it, but how many games have come out so far that started, or were finished using kickstarter? Again I'm not saying it is bad, I'm just saying I think we don't have a good enough sample size to say that kickstarter is saving video games. Not that they necessarily needed saving in the first place.

    Isn't it kind of early to develop a viable metric of this? The first (high profile) game to receive funding was funded back in March. Game development isn't exactly a speedy process.

  • fearsomepiratefearsomepirate I ate a pickle once. Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    This story isn't so much about "making money" vs "not making money" as it is what happens when you're working for a company that takes a brain-dead, copy-the-leader approach to making money...an approach that eventually turns into "losing money," partly because your best talent won't stick around, and partly because consumers will usually pick the leader over a copycat, and because anyone trying this method usually lacks the creativity and intelligence to even understand why the leader leads, and so only copies things in the most superficial way. I've seen series with a lot of potential turn to crap because some producer clearly said, "Well, [Market Leader] doesn't do that, so we're going to take this feature out." See, for example, the Callofdutification of Killzone. It happens in every industry, too, not just games.

    fearsomepirate on
    Nobody makes me bleed my own blood...nobody.
    PSN ID: fearsomepirate
  • RedDawnRedDawn Registered User regular
    RedDawn wrote: »
    I know a lot of people are praising kickstarter, and I do like it, but how many games have come out so far that started, or were finished using kickstarter? Again I'm not saying it is bad, I'm just saying I think we don't have a good enough sample size to say that kickstarter is saving video games. Not that they necessarily needed saving in the first place.

    Isn't it kind of early to develop a viable metric of this? The first (high profile) game to receive funding was funded back in March. Game development isn't exactly a speedy process.

    That is what I'm saying.

  • El SkidEl Skid The frozen white northRegistered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    El Skid wrote: »
    The thing with Kickstarters is that if the funding is coming from a whole bunch of regular people. The developers do not have the same pressure put on them as if it is funded by a publisher. A publisher needs the game out by a certain time, within a certain budget, and can exert some influence on the development process if it doesn't like the way things are going. "Do this or we pull your funding" is very hard to resist.

    So if a developer wants to take a few extra weeks to get the game polished, or is willing to make less money in order to put out a better product, they are MUCH more likely to get the go-ahead on a kickstarted product than they are with publishers.

    Of course developers want to make money. But they are also much more responsible for making sure that the game is well-liked and successful. Wereas if the game sucks but makes money the publishers are happy; they don't lose face or have a more difficult time getting their next project off the ground.

    On the other hand, exactly what you said can be read this way: With Kickstarters there's no accountability to anyone who actually controls the purse strings. Kickstarters usually frontload the funding to the developer, and if the developer slacks off and is a year late with delivery, there's no authority to say, "Hey, maybe you ought to go ahead and get that out the door."

    Welcome to kickstarter, enjoy your stay! :D

    In the end, you theoretically get access to a better product, with nothing but people complaining on the interwebs to keep the publisher to any sort of schedule. And potentially the lack of publisher oversight can lead to risky gambles that wouldn't have been allowed being taken, and projects not being finished ever because of this.

    I recommend personally that if you're going to kickstart something, at least make sure there's evidence of project management somewhere in the mix, because it's really easy to not plan anything and run out of money halfway through a project if you have no idea what you're doing and nobody connected to the project has done this before.

    mrpaku wrote: »
    my name is precisionk and i'm ten tanks

    wrath God fear traitor evil
  • Shakes999Shakes999 Registered User regular
    RedDawn wrote: »
    I know a lot of people are praising kickstarter, and I do like it, but how many games have come out so far that started, or were finished using kickstarter? Again I'm not saying it is bad, I'm just saying I think we don't have a good enough sample size to say that kickstarter is saving video games. Not that they necessarily needed saving in the first place.

    This is what I keep telling people. Kickstarter is a fantastic idea. But its still in its early stages with games. When one of these multi-million dollar projects ends up being a awful game (or doesn't get released at all), were going to see alot of the shine come off it. My suggestion is people better take advantage of it while they can cause its going to happen sooner or later and its going to be much harder to get donations at that point.

  • pwn493pwn493 Registered User regular
    PaperPritt wrote: »
    "It’s upsetting, but it’s how it goes sometimes."

    Read: Most of the time. Thank god for Kickstarter and crowd source funding. These 'producers' are normally employed and brought in by the Publisher. Money is pretty much their sole driving incentive.

    Uhhhh i'm sorry that just doesn't compute. Unless you're Non-Profit Organization, your main drive is to ... actually make money? Is that like a new bad thing now? And i'm gonna have to contradict you too on the idea that kickstarters are somehow not aimed in the general direction of making money because that is also the main objective.

    I think the term "main drive" here is misleading. Businesses are designed to make money. Making money is the only reason a business is created and how much money it makes is the criterion against which all of its decisions are based.

    Individuals want to make money sure, but that is normally in service of some other goal, like pursuing your hobbies. So, when you work for a big corporation where no individual voice really stands out (Microsoft, Google, EA, Amazon) then it can be really frustrating to work on something you love and think is great, only to have it canned or gutted to agree with "business goals."

    Most of the developers I've met are passionate about what they do (especially game developers), and they want solve cool problems and make new things that other people will like. It must be very frustrating to have all this work you spent 60-80 hours of your weeks working on get thrown away so the business can make more money.

  • The Good Doctor TranThe Good Doctor Tran Registered User regular
    RedDawn wrote: »
    I know a lot of people are praising kickstarter, and I do like it, but how many games have come out so far that started, or were finished using kickstarter? Again I'm not saying it is bad, I'm just saying I think we don't have a good enough sample size to say that kickstarter is saving video games. Not that they necessarily needed saving in the first place.

    FTL was finished via kickstarter. If you take a gander at the G&T thread you will see some of us are kind of big fans.

    LoL & Spiral Knights & MC & SMNC: Carrington - Origin: CarringtonPlus - Steam: skdrtran
  • garyklineccgaryklinecc Registered User regular
    "My name is Cora. And I fight for the users." Go Cora! I heard Bruce Boxleitner voice when I read that line. :)

    True, businesses ultimately must focus on profits, or they won't exist. Public corporations are led by CEOs who have to answer to stockholders who want to see increasing profits/stock price over time. So the CEO's focus is on profits as well.

    But many (most?) businesses are started because the founder(s) thought he or she had a better product or service to deliver. They wanted to do what they loved, and provide themselves with a living wage while doing it. The great corporations hold onto that mission, that purpose, that first guided the company when it started. Profits are a necessity to fulfilling that mission, but not the main goal.

    But after the founder leaves a company, and a stockholder-elected board starts hiring CEOs to pursue short-term goals, is when we often see the company turn away from the original purpose.

  • mnihilmnihil Registered User regular
    My original, more elaborate post is stuck and possibly lost in unexplained Spam-Filter Limbo. Here's the gist:
    If Mary Cagle is drawing the strip now... give her the credit. Is she credited somewhere? 'cause if she isn't, that's atrocious.

    Tweets don't count.

    ShadowenLovelyMan in the MistsCambiataTychoCelchuuuDark Raven XkimezerzhulCaptain Marcuspablo_price
  • wonderpugwonderpug Registered User regular
    Especially since she's doing such a fantastic job

    mnihilShadowenMan in the MistsCambiataTychoCelchuuuAegeriDark Raven XkimeCaptain Marcuspablo_price
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    mnihil wrote: »
    My original, more elaborate post is stuck and possibly lost in unexplained Spam-Filter Limbo. Here's the gist:
    If Mary Cagle is drawing the strip now... give her the credit. Is she credited somewhere? 'cause if she isn't, that's atrocious.

    Tweets don't count.
    wonderpug wrote: »
    Especially since she's doing such a fantastic job

    What these guys said.

  • Sgt.Big_BubbaloolaSgt.Big_Bubbaloola Registered User regular
    RedDawn wrote: »
    I know a lot of people are praising kickstarter, and I do like it, but how many games have come out so far that started, or were finished using kickstarter? Again I'm not saying it is bad, I'm just saying I think we don't have a good enough sample size to say that kickstarter is saving video games. Not that they necessarily needed saving in the first place.

    FTL was finished via kickstarter. If you take a gander at the G&T thread you will see some of us are kind of big fans.

    Ya beat me to it!


    El Skid wrote: »
    The thing with Kickstarters is that if the funding is coming from a whole bunch of regular people. The developers do not have the same pressure put on them as if it is funded by a publisher. A publisher needs the game out by a certain time, within a certain budget, and can exert some influence on the development process if it doesn't like the way things are going. "Do this or we pull your funding" is very hard to resist.

    So if a developer wants to take a few extra weeks to get the game polished, or is willing to make less money in order to put out a better product, they are MUCH more likely to get the go-ahead on a kickstarted product than they are with publishers.

    Of course developers want to make money. But they are also much more responsible for making sure that the game is well-liked and successful. Wereas if the game sucks but makes money the publishers are happy; they don't lose face or have a more difficult time getting their next project off the ground.


    Exactly. I'm not against making money, but at least with Kickstarter, the devs are not so pressured as to compromise their vision. As for these current community funded games not being released yet and with not guarantee they will be, same could be applied to the standard release model for games
    helllooooooo Duke Nukem Forever.



    Well gosh, I suppose I might as well settle in for a nice cuppa ...... this is gonna be good!
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    admanb wrote: »
    mnihil wrote: »
    My original, more elaborate post is stuck and possibly lost in unexplained Spam-Filter Limbo. Here's the gist:
    If Mary Cagle is drawing the strip now... give her the credit. Is she credited somewhere? 'cause if she isn't, that's atrocious.

    Tweets don't count.
    wonderpug wrote: »
    Especially since she's doing such a fantastic job

    What these guys said.

    Agreed.

    What is this I don't even.
  • FalxFalx Registered User regular
    Colorists don't draw strips.

  • CubeWatermelonCubeWatermelon Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    Falx wrote: »
    Colorists don't draw strips.
    I've drawn all the strips since Cuisine, bro! So in this case it might be possible.

    CubeWatermelon on
    CambiataMichaelLCFalxAntimatterKochikensDark Raven XkimeWybornzerzhulCaptain Marcuspablo_price
  • Scott KurtzScott Kurtz Registered User regular
    Falx, Mary draws and colors the strip now. I stepped down from drawing Trenches to work on my new comic. I just write and do art direction now. That art is all Mary.

    Antimatter
  • mnihilmnihil Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    I don't think the snark towards Sgt.Big_Bubbaloola was necessary. Publishers, at least as far as we can judge from the outside, have been notoriously making terrible calls and ripped the heart out of a product, just to get it on the shelves. It simply doesn't feel like a negotiation between equals, in which could be discussed why certain steps would be beneficial or others necessary. Ultimately, it's often in the publishers interest to actually put out a good game, but not knowing what constitutes a good game, they shove out a half-assed product.

    It's been my contention for a while that game developers and publishers simply don't have a handle on the demands of development yet, because of the way the industry exploded. There's always stories of months of work being discarded because the concept was going nowhere, or multiplayer having to be added way too late in the process, and people have to attend fifteen meetings a week instead of being able to actually do their damn jobs. Right now, game development feels like a Rube Goldberg device.

    Plus, the studio system doesn't seem to work out, anymore. There just isn't an equal and constant demand for a set number of employees in every department, so that's another difficulty, unless you're a big studio working on multiple titles.

    And above all, I think it's the hardest to swallow for gamers that the industry is now so financially controlled, because it started out with developers who were content with making a living, not a fortune. Passionate people, putting out their product from their basements. And opposed to the movie industry, somewhere along 90% of the significant games coming out are similarly huge financial risks, whereas movies with a reasonable budget can still make ripples.

    ---

    That just on that matter. I know it's discouraged, but I'm really curious what game this was... There's so many games, particularly franchises, and particularly franchise reboots, that seem to be wasted opportunities, or be removed from greatness because of a lacking story. Would be nice to know which developer actually made the effort, but couldn't present it.

    (see EDIT in the post below)

    mnihil on
  • mnihilmnihil Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    EDIT: This post has originally been posted sometime afternoon October 11th, or something, got caught by the Spam-Filter(?) and weirdly released now, unfortunately even as a double post. Very weird forum bug, I assume. My apologies for it appearing twice. And incongruously late.

    mnihil on
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    ugh this comic is a perfect example of why Trenches has issues (although the joke is cute after the last comic's joke).

    At the end of the day Cora should have been fired ages ago yet she's still there and has somehow been promoted, but she has not learned anything. Sure it 'sucks' for the users but eh, that's life. It's just not a fun comic to read :\

    steam_sig.png
    kHDRsTc.png
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Oh Lord, Cora the White Knight again. What does she think is going to happen, they'll roll back the rollback because she pitched a fit?

    I think her idea is that the company needs to communicate with the customers and tell them "rollback will occur on this date, and this is what you can expect" instead of just steath patching.

    Nothing pisses players off more than a company making major changes to a game without at least giving advanced notice.

  • FalxFalx Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    Falx wrote: »
    Colorists don't draw strips.
    I've drawn all the strips since Cuisine, bro! So in this case it might be possible.

    Well color me embarrassed.

    @Scott Kurtz

    Do you stand and watch over her shoulder while she does?

    "I would have done that differently."

    "Oooh.... no it's fine. Go on. If you wanna go that way, it's cool."

    "Are you sure? Really? Ok... Ok. Just saying, that's all."

    Falx on
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON IndiaRegistered User regular
    Nah he probably just slaps his name on it and counts the ad revenue. I mean seriously at this point he has posted in the thread, why isn't Mary getting some credit in a location other than twitter or the horrific hellpit of our beloved forum?

    Darkewolfe
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular
    Oh man, I'm happy that finally happened. Cora's logic made my head hurt.

    Any one else see this ending with everyone being demoted, the game failing, and the all go back to square one? M/Rarely back, Cora become regular tester again, Q demoted. And then Gwen points out to Issac how much time he spent trying to change things only for them to go back to square one.

  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    I was just going to make an upskirt joke and move on, but this thread is actually kind of fascinating now.

  • FalxFalx Registered User regular
    Nah he probably just slaps his name on it and counts the ad revenue. I mean seriously at this point he has posted in the thread, why isn't Mary getting some credit in a location other than twitter or the horrific hellpit of our beloved forum?

    Don't be an ass. Don't you think if she wasn't happy with whatever arrangement regarding pay/credit they have going currently she would have... I dunno... stopped drawing for him? Do you really think they have her locked in a tower chained to a drawing tablet?

    She posted in this thread too if you didn't notice. Don't white knight a lady who is clearly capable of speaking up for herself.

  • CubeWatermelonCubeWatermelon Registered User regular
    Woof yeah, no need to fight guys. Suffice to say that it's a topic under discussion by the people who need to be discussing it, and I am absolutely being compensated for my time. But I appreciate the concern : )

    FalxAntimatter
  • mnihilmnihil Registered User regular
    Woof yeah, no need to fight guys. Suffice to say that it's a topic under discussion by the people who need to be discussing it, and I am absolutely being compensated for my time. But I appreciate the concern : )
    Actually, this is worse. What is there to discuss?
    I didn't go as far as TychoCelchuuu, I just thought it was a pretty annoying mistake; i.e. they forgot to credit you.

    But how is there a discussion? ©[year] Concept & Story by: J. Holkins, M. Krahulik, S. Kurtz, Art by: M. Cagle; or at the very least make a notification in the "About the Authors" rider. A line. "Since [date], the strips have been drawn by Mary Cagle."

    As professional creatives, these guys should know how hard it is out there, particularly for cartoonists. Proper credits are no discussion.

  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    It's her prerogative to deal with her own career. She's already clearly stated she doesn't want a fight to break out over it and we are now drawing a line under the discussion. You're welcome to your opinion, but it's absolutely none of your business.

    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
    FalxAntimatter
  • Ori KleinOri Klein Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    Publishers' decisions are driven by Marketing&Public Relations. M&PR are the ones tossing executive producers onto devs with orders of what they want done or changed based upon what they and their little surveys think would constitute a (financially successful) good game.
    Problem is that M&PR most of the times couldn't recognize good production/design-related decisions from bad ones (what to cut and HOW to cut it, while retaining the game's integrity and 'fun' factor) to save their asses.
    And since most developers have not the least bit of power to resist them and stick to their guns or renegotiate more money, it all gets washed down the toilet.


    As for the strip, I think Cora is about to get introduced to a harsh dose of reality.
    Falx wrote: »
    Do you really think they have her locked in a tower chained to a drawing tablet?

    I do not know. She is very pretty and talented. Men do stupid things when coming across quality girls. Fear of losing them is usually the first thing that busts down the door onto the brain-partment and throws logic out the window.
    Maybe playing tower assault games throughout our lives was just a preparation for us to save the damsel!

    (I kid, natch)

    Ori Klein on
  • PaperPrittPaperPritt Registered User regular
    If i came in any way as snarky in my reply to Sgt.Big_Bubbaloola then i sincerely apologize as this was absolutely not my intention.

    Regarding the credit thing, this is very clearly a private matter. Given the very large public exposure this site gets, i highly doubt that anything less than a prefectly agreeable arrangement is considered.

  • Sgt.Big_BubbaloolaSgt.Big_Bubbaloola Registered User regular
    PaperPritt wrote: »
    If i came in any way as snarky in my reply to Sgt.Big_Bubbaloola then i sincerely apologize as this was absolutely not my intention.

    Regarding the credit thing, this is very clearly a private matter. Given the very large public exposure this site gets, i highly doubt that anything less than a prefectly agreeable arrangement is considered.

    It's alright PaperPritt, I forgives ya!

    *gently fist taps him on the chin* ;)



    Well gosh, I suppose I might as well settle in for a nice cuppa ...... this is gonna be good!
  • RatherDashing89RatherDashing89 Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    At least the past couple of strips confirm one thing. There is only one good person in the entire cast.
    His name rhymes with
    220px-Q_(Star_Trek).jpg

    RatherDashing89 on
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