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[PA Comic] Wednesday, November 7, 2012 - Dongles

2

Posts

  • DarlanDarlan Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    KalTorak wrote: »
    the idea that "sexy to me" = "universally inherently enjoyable, get over it" is pretty much the main problem when it comes to sexism acting as a damper for non-heterosexual-males trying to enjoy videogames (using their own definition of what "enjoyable" means).
    That's fair to say, I suppose I should have said that things would be generally better if media did a better job catering to other sexualities as well, and "get over it" is admittedly crass--I'm just personally very, very tired of grown people getting in line to say "oh, boobs and buttocks, how wrong. No mature, adult men should like that no siree." It's tiresome, and it misses and distorts the truly important aspects of feminism.


    Edit: In my defense, I very purposefully wrote "sexiness is inherently enjoyable", as opposed to "sexy woman are inherently enjoyable". Big difference there.

    Darlan on
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Darlan wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    the idea that "sexy to me" = "universally inherently enjoyable, get over it" is pretty much the main problem when it comes to sexism acting as a damper for non-heterosexual-males trying to enjoy videogames (using their own definition of what "enjoyable" means).
    That's fair to say, I suppose I should have said that things would be generally better if media did a better job catering to other sexualities as well, and "get over it" is admittedly crass--I'm just personally very, very tired of grown people getting in line to say "oh, boobs and buttocks, how wrong. No mature, adult men should like that no siree." It's tiresome, and it misses and distorts the truly important aspects of feminism.

    uh well it's good that no one in here said that then.

  • DarlanDarlan Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Darlan wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    the idea that "sexy to me" = "universally inherently enjoyable, get over it" is pretty much the main problem when it comes to sexism acting as a damper for non-heterosexual-males trying to enjoy videogames (using their own definition of what "enjoyable" means).
    That's fair to say, I suppose I should have said that things would be generally better if media did a better job catering to other sexualities as well, and "get over it" is admittedly crass--I'm just personally very, very tired of grown people getting in line to say "oh, boobs and buttocks, how wrong. No mature, adult men should like that no siree." It's tiresome, and it misses and distorts the truly important aspects of feminism.

    uh well it's good that no one in here said that then.
    ? Re-read the first page...?


    Darlan on
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    As a corollary to my above list of non-oversexualized female game characters, there are some characters who are sexualized with a purpose - Catwoman and Poison Ivy from the Batman games jump to mind. Some people still complained about how sexualized they were, and possibly with good reason; it might have been over the top. But for better or worse, overt sexuality has been a part of those characters for a very long time, and a big part of how they interact with Batman. Yes, they're sexual, but there's a reason for it beyond crass marketing. Some people still might not like the presence of overt sexuality no matter the reason for it, but purposeful overt sexuality and purposeless overt sexuality are very different things. And since every videogame character is designed from the ground up, any character's sexuality is the result of a conscious design choice.

    My guess is that with regard to complaints about Cortana and a lot of other female characters, the sexualization serves no purpose to the story or game other than crass marketing. It's very easy to strawman these complaints as being broadly anti-sexual, but that's a mischaracterization of the complaint. The default female character has no need to be as sexualized as it is now. A game can create a need for a sexualized character, but that's different than a game creating a need for a female character, a distinction that few developers seem to have picked up on.

  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    Darlan wrote: »
    I'm not terribly bothered by her appearance, sexiness and sexism are two different things and they get conflated waaay too often. There seems to be a general cultural trend of infantilizing heterosexual male sexuality, and while they're hardly some kind of downtrodden, disadvantaged group, sexual repression is never particularly healthy.

    What did strike me as sexist from the little of Halo 4 I've seen is the way Cortana needfully, weakly whispered "I need you" in the intro: she's a super powerful AI! She should blast some of those guys out of the airlock and tell say "let's do this" like an equal, not...that. Ugh.

    In short, sexism to me is treating woman like they are less able than men, not pretending like sexiness isn't inheritable enjoyable. It is. Get over it.

    Life is more complicated than this bro. There is an unwritten expectation that females MUST conform rigidly to a single standard of beauty in videogames. Males do not suffer similar expectations. This is sexist.

    Soul Silver FC: 1935 3141 6240
    White FC: 0819 3350 1787
  • XaviarXaviar Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    edit: via Gabe's twitter, slightly bigger Cortana -

    A7HVsUhCQAIGN4Z.jpg

    I want this as my iPhone wallpaper. But the clock cuts off her head. Can some photoshop wizard extend the background up a ways?
    The little wispy bit of her hair is adorable

    Xaviar on
  • RokiyoRokiyo Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Sexism and objectification overlap but aren't the same thing. Sexism is discrimination on the basis of gender, while sexual objectification is treating another individual as an nothing more than a means to sexual gratification.

    Objectifying a woman as "nothing but a hole to ****" is certainly an act of sexism, but so is refusing to give a woman a pay-rise just because you don't think women deserve them.

    Rokiyo on
  • Chris FOMChris FOM Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Wow, looking at Gabe's post makes me realize we haven't had a new Cardboard Tube Samurai comic in over three years. Damn. Tube, fix that! Please?

    Chris FOM on
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    Xaviar wrote: »
    edit: via Gabe's twitter, slightly bigger Cortana -

    A7HVsUhCQAIGN4Z.jpg

    I want this as my iPhone wallpaper. But the clock cuts off her head. Can some photoshop wizard extend the background up a ways?
    The little wispy bit of her hair is adorable
    http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/9929/tallcortana.jpg

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Darlan wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Darlan wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    the idea that "sexy to me" = "universally inherently enjoyable, get over it" is pretty much the main problem when it comes to sexism acting as a damper for non-heterosexual-males trying to enjoy videogames (using their own definition of what "enjoyable" means).
    That's fair to say, I suppose I should have said that things would be generally better if media did a better job catering to other sexualities as well, and "get over it" is admittedly crass--I'm just personally very, very tired of grown people getting in line to say "oh, boobs and buttocks, how wrong. No mature, adult men should like that no siree." It's tiresome, and it misses and distorts the truly important aspects of feminism.

    uh well it's good that no one in here said that then.
    ? Re-read the first page...?
    I think maybe you need to do the re-reading. Specifically maybe re-read the part where I said this:
    I don't have a problem with women being stereotypically "hot" like Cortana definitely is (even if people like shoeboxjeddy have such ridiculously high standards that a perfectly sculpted body with a redesigned sexier face still isn't hot because of a tiny imperfection in her teeth). I just have a problem with every portrayal of women in video games/entertainment in general being stereotypically hot. Cortana is probably fine in a vacuum (although I'd argue that making her super sexy is still pretty dumb because there's no reason for a scientist to be walking around basically naked), but the two issues are 1) every video game female has to be Lara Croft hot, even when they're a scientist AI that lives in a suit of power armor, and 2) Cortana has been getting hotter over time because if our female character is anything less than "better than supermodel" we have to fix that shit for the sequel.
    That doesn't read to me like "boobs and buttocks, how wrong."

    TychoCelchuuu on
  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    "Better than Lara Croft, Mass Effect, and DOA" shows that a character is not depicted in a sexist manner the same way "better than drinking raw sewage" shows that a drink is delicious. The new TRON is kind of bad because the poor lady ends up in high heels, but TRON isn't quite as bad because everyone is dressed like that, not just the women with shapely forms. If I could see Master Chief's junk outlined in tight spandex I might not be complaining as much. And I never claimed that every woman in Halo is depicted in a sexist manner. We're just talking about Cortana.

    But honestly if these pictures don't make the point for you then this probably isn't a discussion we can have because we're just on two completely different pages. You look at the pictures and see "better than Lara Croft" and I see "obviously designed to pander directly to the male gaze at the expense of her dignity and characterization." If that's not sexism then not much is.

    edit: Jesus Christ, she has huge boobs and a perfect ass! How is this even contestable? This is like Denise Richards as a nuclear physicist in The World is Not Enough! We have a female character who's a scientist, so what should she look like? Well obviously a porn star. And what should she dress like? Wait, dress? You're saying you want her to wear clothes? That's bullshit! Make her naked! But no nipples, that would get us an AO rating.

    I dunno man, that stuff cuts both ways. She's pretty so OF COURSE it's male gaze pandering objectification, woops. Now we'll fix that, she's plain with small boobs and she wears glasses. Well now she's obviously just targeting a fetish and are you saying that appearance has anything to do with intelligence because of all the sexist things I've heard, that's... You see what I mean? Probably we should examine the CONTEXT of the character, her role, her characterization, things the developers say about her (what they think the appeal is), etc. And all that stuff is fairly to very positive. She's a more three dimensional character than Chief by far and her character weakness is based on the fact that she's an AI, not any stereotypical "womanly" trait.

    First screen: she's quite ugly in Halo 1, the graphics couldn't really manage anything more. When the graphics improved, so did her appearance. But not in a DOA fashion, she just looked more like a person rather than an extra from The Real Adventures of Johnny Quest.

    Second screen: again, CONTEXT. She's been tortured and also is starting to go a bit insane. This is actually the ONLY TIME IN THE SERIES (before whatever happens in 4) when she is not standing up straight, the contrast means everything. But oh shit, lady fell down, sexism ahoy. Storytelling and body language can't be allowed when the character is a pretty lady!

    Third screen: A straight on shot establishing her new appearance before we get going in the Halo 4 campaign. Here, you're just going "still pretty, SEXISM."

    How is what contestable? There is NOTHING WRONG with those two features. I agree that not every character needs them... good thing we already proved that EVERY OTHER Halo woman character DOESN'T HAVE THEM. Oh shit, that's kind of the ideal right? That characters have different body types and sexy isn't bad, it just shouldn't be the only thing? The female character who is a scientist (Halsey) wears lab coats, old lady sweaters, etc. The female character that is a sassy AI dresses like holograms often do, in 'almost clothes' to emphasize their non-human nature. Find me a screen (NOT FAN ART) where Cortana is doing any pose that would be on a GTA cover (enjoying a sucker, finger to puckered lips, swaddling a phallic object, etc). Oh wait, you can't because the art direction never goes there.

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Rokiyo wrote: »
    It is somewhat offensive to assume that intelligent women should be sexually unappealing or out of shape. Besides, regardless of how the original human scientist looked, it is entirely plausible that even if she was overweight or unattractive, that she could have wished she looked like a stereotypical model. As an AI, she could well be playing out subconscious impulses from a previous life.
    How convenient that an AI who can literally choose to look like whatever she wants to look like just HAPPENS to want to look like a porn star! Isn't it weird how, in this made up universe where literally anything could happen, Bungie and 343 Studios just OUT OF THE BLUE designed a female character that's basically a tutorial in how to cater to the male gaze? I mean, I know a ton of women, and if they could dress up like whatever they wanted and have whatever body shape they wanted, I don't think many of them would choose naked glowing purple Barbie Doll, but I guess we MEN just lucked out that Cortana's that kind of girl! So as long as it's her choice to look like a ridiculously oversexualized nerd fantasy then it's okay, and that works out well for us because we get to check our her ass!
    Rokiyo wrote: »
    Also, it's probably about time we stop pretending that only women get hypersexualised or objectified in video games. There are no shortage of video games out there that feature tall, extremely muscular male protagonists with chiselled jaw lines and piercing eyes. In the very same game we are discussing right now, we have the other primary protagnist himself: Master Chief. While not brazenly displaying bulging muscles, he is still not only extremely tall and broad-shouldered, but he is also presented as the ultimate alpha male and warrior. While women are often harshly judged on their appearance (likely due to a male's primitive instinct to select mates on the basis of their apparent fertility), men are equally often harshly judged by their social dominance (likely due to a female's primitive instinct to select mates on the basis of their apparent ability to provide and protect).
    Congratulations! You're the millionth person to re-enact this comic. But let's just pretend that maybe you're right for a moment. Guess what! Women aren't all driven by evolutionary forces to find attractive the men who look the most like Arnold Schwarzenegger and act the most like Arnold Schwarzenegger as Conan the Barbarian. Guess which male character from The Avengers has the most people crushing on him! Is it Thor, because his obvious strength makes him irresistible to the illogical primitive instinct that drives all women? Is it Captain America, who, due to his place of leadership and his social dominance, captivates the primitive female instinct to select people with the best chance of providing and protecting? No, it's Loki. So now it looks like your creepy evolutionary biotruths about what women find attractive maybe aren't always right.

    But let's pretend they are! You've just argued that the portrayal of Master Chief in the Halo games is sexist. I guess that's two strikes against the game now!
    "Better than Lara Croft, Mass Effect, and DOA" shows that a character is not depicted in a sexist manner the same way "better than drinking raw sewage" shows that a drink is delicious. The new TRON is kind of bad because the poor lady ends up in high heels, but TRON isn't quite as bad because everyone is dressed like that, not just the women with shapely forms. If I could see Master Chief's junk outlined in tight spandex I might not be complaining as much. And I never claimed that every woman in Halo is depicted in a sexist manner. We're just talking about Cortana.

    But honestly if these pictures don't make the point for you then this probably isn't a discussion we can have because we're just on two completely different pages. You look at the pictures and see "better than Lara Croft" and I see "obviously designed to pander directly to the male gaze at the expense of her dignity and characterization." If that's not sexism then not much is.

    edit: Jesus Christ, she has huge boobs and a perfect ass! How is this even contestable? This is like Denise Richards as a nuclear physicist in The World is Not Enough! We have a female character who's a scientist, so what should she look like? Well obviously a porn star. And what should she dress like? Wait, dress? You're saying you want her to wear clothes? That's bullshit! Make her naked! But no nipples, that would get us an AO rating.

    I dunno man, that stuff cuts both ways. She's pretty so OF COURSE it's male gaze pandering objectification, woops. Now we'll fix that, she's plain with small boobs and she wears glasses. Well now she's obviously just targeting a fetish and are you saying that appearance has anything to do with intelligence because of all the sexist things I've heard, that's... You see what I mean? Probably we should examine the CONTEXT of the character, her role, her characterization, things the developers say about her (what they think the appeal is), etc. And all that stuff is fairly to very positive. She's a more three dimensional character than Chief by far and her character weakness is based on the fact that she's an AI, not any stereotypical "womanly" trait.
    The options for Cortana are not just "naked" or "targeting some other fetish." Women in games can be designed to appeal to nobody's specific sexual fetish and in fact they can be designed so that they're not particularly sexually attractive or particularly ugly. Like, I dunno... all the male characters in video games. With very few exceptions, almost no male character in games is sexualized. Some are power fantasies, some are generic nobodies, and some are just cool designs. There are women like this too in games (Samus, for instance, at least until she was forced into the Zero Suit) and there are some women whose sexualized design actually makes sense (Bayonetta) but there are vast swathes of women that are sexualized for no reason, Cortana being one of them.
    First screen: she's quite ugly in Halo 1, the graphics couldn't really manage anything more. When the graphics improved, so did her appearance. But not in a DOA fashion, she just looked more like a person rather than an extra from The Real Adventures of Johnny Quest.
    More like a person with huge boobs and zero clothes? Did anyone else get prettier when Halo's graphics got better? I mean, prettier as in "more fuckable" not prettier as in "more defined face." And I love the idea that Halo 1's graphics are so ugly that Cortana has to be ugly. Uh, Tomb Raider came out many years before Halo! Is Lara Croft ugly? My point is that Cortana started out maybe not awful and ended up as blue sex fantasy.
    Second screen: again, CONTEXT. She's been tortured and also is starting to go a bit insane. This is actually the ONLY TIME IN THE SERIES (before whatever happens in 4) when she is not standing up straight, the contrast means everything. But oh shit, lady fell down, sexism ahoy. Storytelling and body language can't be allowed when the character is a pretty lady!
    Look if you want to post your own screenshots where she's not being objectified, go ahead.
    Third screen: A straight on shot establishing her new appearance before we get going in the Halo 4 campaign. Here, you're just going "still pretty, SEXISM."

    How is what contestable? There is NOTHING WRONG with those two features. I agree that not every character needs them... good thing we already proved that EVERY OTHER Halo woman character DOESN'T HAVE THEM. Oh shit, that's kind of the ideal right? That characters have different body types and sexy isn't bad, it just shouldn't be the only thing? The female character who is a scientist (Halsey) wears lab coats, old lady sweaters, etc. The female character that is a sassy AI dresses like holograms often do, in 'almost clothes' to emphasize their non-human nature. Find me a screen (NOT FAN ART) where Cortana is doing any pose that would be on a GTA cover (enjoying a sucker, finger to puckered lips, swaddling a phallic object, etc). Oh wait, you can't because the art direction never goes there.
    "As long as Cortana is not literally miming sex, she is not being objectified." Yeah I think I'm going to have to disagree. She's naked. That's like... 90% of the work done right there.

    @KalTorak and @The Good Doctor Tran and @Fiaryn have covered everyone else's posts pretty well so I'll just note that I agree with everything they said.

    TychoCelchuuu on
  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    "Unless the computer program puts on a sweater, it is sexism FOREVER." Cool argument bro. And if Cortana's character concept was "pretty" then with better graphics, she should look MORE pretty. Like how Johnson looks more like the tough SOB he's supposed to, Grunts get increasingly nervous and jumpy, and so on. So yes, we agree that she is supposed to be an attractive character. What you have yet to show is how that alone makes her a sexist character design. Her CHARACTERIZATION isn't sexualized. She isn't objectified... except for the fact that she lives in a computer chip and is thus literally an object.

    We've seen other female AIs, they have their own deal going on. The fact that Cortana alone chooses to be this way doesn't make the work sexist. Again, your arguments lack weight in a bad way. SHE ISN'T A PERSON. If a PERSON went around naked all the time, that would be hard to have an in-canon reason. Computer programs do what they want. What you're saying is "why's she gotta be naked?" She's not. She's doing the whole "sexy sci-fi bodysuit thing."

    Please provide proof of the Loki thing. That sounds like a big crock of shit to make a weak ass point. As if women aren't CRAZY for Chris Hemsworth. Hell, they're pretty excited for LIAM Hemsworth and he's half his size...

    Final point, it is possible for a character to do more than one thing at a time. For example, a character can be attractive for sex appeal, but also be a full part of the narrative, the equal or superior of every other character in the work. James Bond fits this role. Is it sexist that James Bond is sexy as hell? And DON'T do the whole "false equivalence" thing, it's not. Cortana is brilliant, funny, has more of the plot focusing on her development and issues, and experiences more personal growth than the supposed protagonist. If her best trait was being attractive, that would be the false equivalence. It's so far besides the point, that most often she's not even visually on screen though.

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    If Cortana's characterization is not sexualized then her actual design should also not be sexualized. The only reason to sexualize a non-sexual character is to pander to the male gaze. "You cannot objectify someone who lives in a computer chip" is flat out wrong. You don't understand what it means to objectify women.

    You're right that she's not literally naked. She's just in a skintight bodysuit that clings even better than the ones from TRON. She literally could not be more exposed.

    Forget the Loki thing if you don't believe me.

    It's not sexist that James Bond is sexy as hell because that's part of his character. It's not sexist that Bayonetta is sexy as hell because that's part of her character. It's sexist that Cortana is sexy as hell because that's not part of her character.

    TychoCelchuuu on
  • Major TomMajor Tom Registered User regular
    If Cortana's characterization is not sexualized then her actual design should also not be sexualized. The only reason to sexualize a non-sexual character is to pander to the male gaze. "You cannot objectify someone who lives in a computer chip" is flat out wrong. You don't understand what it means to objectify women.

    You're right that she's not literally naked. She's just in a skintight bodysuit that clings even better than the ones from TRON. She literally could not be more exposed.

    Forget the Loki thing if you don't believe me.

    It's not sexist that James Bond is sexy as hell because that's part of his character. It's not sexist that Bayonetta is sexy as hell because that's part of her character. It's sexist that Cortana is sexy as hell because that's not part of her character.

    I don't know, bro. Cortana is a somewhat flamboyant, irreverent character in general. It doesn't really strike me as odd that she would present herself in a somewhat provocative manner--she likes being provocative. Also, consider that the game takes place 500 years in the future and hopefully slut-shaming isn't, like, a big deal by then. It's probably totally not a big deal for a lady to be in a skintight suit of translucent blue data. People probably show up to the office like that. "Oh hey Bob, is that a new glowing electrified catsuit? Looking good, buddy! Can you get me that TPS report by 3?"

    Also, as you yourself stated, context matters. Cortana would be fine in a vacuum but most games are overtly male-gazey. Sure, but should the Halo developers have to answer for all other videogames, when female characters in their videogame are, by-and-large, represented in a functional, normal way? Yes, one of their characters is very pretty, and yes, she doesn't wear much in the way of clothing. That, however, in no way contradicts anything we know about the character's personality, functionality, or capability. She is not an elf in Tera wearing only pasties and metal thong to fight six-story monsters. She's an irreverent, sassy AI, who is no less capable and who doesn't strain credulity because of her clothing.

  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    It's not sexist that James Bond is sexy as hell because that's part of his character. It's not sexist that Bayonetta is sexy as hell because that's part of her character. It's sexist that Cortana is sexy as hell because that's not part of her character.

    Do we get to decide what's part of Cortana's character?

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    No, the developers do.

    @Major Tom, if in the future we aren't slut-shaming people, then in the future it's fine to make a video game where Cortana's naked. Just because we might fix something in the future doesn't make it OK now. Sexism is a problem now.

    Should the Halo developers have to answer for all other video games? Well, no. They just have to make sure they're not contributing to the problem, and that's enough for them to have done their job. "Better than the characters in Tera" doesn't mean OK.

    The whole idea that she's naked because it's irreverent completely contradicts the idea that in the future nobody will care, but even assuming that made sense, that's ridiculous. It JUST SO HAPPENS that in the future the thing they find the most irreverent is women with perfect breasts and asses walking around with no clothes? Really? That's super convenient, because that's exactly who I'd stick in my game if I were designing sexist masturbation fantasies for teenagers and making sure my game was constantly viewed through the lens of the male gaze! So that just happened to work out super well for Bungie/343, because they got to make the sexistiest character they could but the Halo universe just happens to be designed to accommodate her!

    Except they also made up the Halo universe...

    TychoCelchuuu on
  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Oh, OK. Thanks for clearing that up.

  • DratatooDratatoo Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Dram wrote: »
    In a recent interview with a Forbes tech blogger, one of the designers said that the AIs can wear whatever they like. A male AI on another ship apparently dresses like a wizard.

    wizard.png

    Dratatoo on
  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    If Cortana's characterization is not sexualized then her actual design should also not be sexualized. The only reason to sexualize a non-sexual character is to pander to the male gaze. "You cannot objectify someone who lives in a computer chip" is flat out wrong. You don't understand what it means to objectify women.

    You're right that she's not literally naked. She's just in a skintight bodysuit that clings even better than the ones from TRON. She literally could not be more exposed.

    Forget the Loki thing if you don't believe me.

    It's not sexist that James Bond is sexy as hell because that's part of his character. It's not sexist that Bayonetta is sexy as hell because that's part of her character. It's sexist that Cortana is sexy as hell because that's not part of her character.

    Good thing I didn't say what you put in quotes then, huh? What I actually said was "she ISN'T objectified, she's a fully featured character/person in her own right" and then beat you to the punch with a joke about how she is technically an object and not a person in the game. You only have a vague understanding of what you're talking about here, don't start this 'you don't even know from sexism' crap.

    Er yes, she could be more exposed. She could be in a Michael Bay movie. She could actually have body parts TO expose. Instead, she's basically a drawing that she is fond of herself.

    I'm not sure why you'd try to make a point based on "I heard a girl or two say this" as if it was a powerful aid to your argument.

    Yup, that's not an argument. "I DECIDE WHO IS SUPPOSED TO BE SEXY OR NOT! THAT'S HOW SEXISM WORKS."

    The fact that you think a mostly nonvisible character was designed for masturbation fantasies really says it all. You're projecting like crazy here, and I would be SHOCKED to hear if you had played all of the Halos in campaign. Maybe one, for a little bit. To be clear, this isn't a "you're RUINING OUR FUN with your SEXISM talk" thing. I could talk about this all day. No this is a "I strongly suspect this is a knee jerk reaction from screenshots and no other knowledge. I believe that I can put forth a convincing argument while knowing absolutely zero context or details." Which is silly.

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Oh, OK. Thanks for clearing that up.
    I think your point was probably "who are you to say that Cortana doesn't want to dress like a stripper, maybe that's just part of who she is so it makes no sense to criticize her!" But Bungie invented Cortana. They could have made her have any personality they wanted! And I guess they gave her the personality that makes her want to look attractive to horny teenage males. Funny how that worked out, huh? In a massively sexist industry producing massively sexist games, Bungie just happened to design a video game character that panders to the male gaze, one of hundreds of similar video game characters. If I make a video game about sexy stripper lesbian exhibitionist ninjas from outer space who have a rare disease that gives them massive breasts, I don't think it's OK for me to say "but that's there character" when people claim sexism because... I made the character.

    Bayonetta, Poison Ivy, and Catwoman are edge cases - I've been giving them the greenlight because the latter two are sort of grandfathered in and the former is actually saying something about sexuality, but there's also a good argument to be made that these characters are super sexist too. Really, though, the issue is when you have a pattern of overly sexualized female characters all throughout video games and other media. One sexy woman does not a problem make.

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    All that we've been trying to say is that there's no reason Cortana needs big boobs and a perfect ass. And there's definitely no reason she needs to show them off. Video games are overwhelmingly made for the male gaze. Women are almost always pretty - ridiculously, unrealistically, nonsensically pretty. And they're dressed to show it off, no matter how ridiculous their costume ends up looking. Are you an archaeologist who also knows her way around weapons? Massive tits, perfect ass, short shorts, and eyeliner because you have to look your best for 2,000 year old mummies and pottery shards. Are you a gunnery chief in the Systems Alliance Navy? Big tits, perfect ass, form fitting armor, perfect makeup and hair. Are you a centuries old Asari Justicar with perfect control of biotics and a rigid moral code? Massive tits, perfect ass, and a form-hugging costume with a gap to show the tits some more. Are you an intergalactic bounty hunter with a suit of armor that's integral to your character and that is the source of your unique skills? Better get that armor off and slip you into a skintight jumpsuit so we can see your massive tits and perfect ass. Are you in a Street Fighter game, or a Soul Calibur game, or a Mortal Kombat game? You probably buy your clothes at the same place strippers do, although you might have to go to a tailor to get the boob part let out so that it can accommodate your oversized mammaries. Empress of the Isle of Time? Massive tits, perfect ass, 2 square feet of clothing. Sorceress from the Korcari Wilds? Big tits, perfect body, basically no shirt. Bounty hunter/mercenary? Guess you won't need body armor, let's just bare your midriff now shall we? Journalist? Blonde hair, perfect body. Literally a being of pure energy who can look like whoever you want to look like? Big tits, perfect ass, no clothes.

    I'm sure you don't see any problem with video games having these sorts of depictions of women. Maybe it's fine because the men are all idealized or because they also have lots of non-sexualized women or because all of these sexualized women are sexualized because that fits their character or because sexy women just look good and they're not being sexist they're just making pretty games or whatever. At that point I think maybe we should just talking and wait for that nice Sarkeesian lady to make her Tropes Against Women video series so we can all watch that instead of making people like me regurgitate the normal arguments because I don't really want to go through the whole rigmarole every time someone's skeptical that sexism is bad or that something is sexism..

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Cortana's visual design made good sense to me in the first game, when she was all blocky and robot-y visually with a nice voice. I kind of assumed all AIs looked like that: basic caricatures of the human form which were recognizably human but didn't really have any special secondary sexual characteristics.

    Her becoming more anatomically correct over time is a bit weird though not gonna lie

    dN0T6ur.png
  • OrzahnOrzahn Registered User new member
    Cortana wants to be more human due to her rampancy, it started in Halo one when she was plugged into the Halo system, it's a possible part of one of the four stages. http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Rampancy the fact that she is based on Halsey also adds to it since Halsey actually found master chief attractive (Cortana is Halsey) I agree partially with sexualisation but Cortana is for many many reasons a poor example, the Asari Justicar linked earlier does a better job of showing needless sexualisation.

  • RokiyoRokiyo Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    --Quintuple post due to impressive forum lag: deleted --

    Rokiyo on
  • RokiyoRokiyo Registered User regular
    Rokiyo wrote: »
    It is somewhat offensive to assume that intelligent women should be sexually unappealing or out of shape. Besides, regardless of how the original human scientist looked, it is entirely plausible that even if she was overweight or unattractive, that she could have wished she looked like a stereotypical model. As an AI, she could well be playing out subconscious impulses from a previous life.
    How convenient that an AI who can literally choose to look like whatever she wants to look like just HAPPENS to want to look like a porn star! Isn't it weird how, in this made up universe where literally anything could happen, Bungie and 343 Studios just OUT OF THE BLUE designed a female character that's basically a tutorial in how to cater to the male gaze? I mean, I know a ton of women, and if they could dress up like whatever they wanted and have whatever body shape they wanted, I don't think many of them would choose naked glowing purple Barbie Doll, but I guess we MEN just lucked out that Cortana's that kind of girl! So as long as it's her choice to look like a ridiculously oversexualized nerd fantasy then it's okay, and that works out well for us because we get to check our her ass!
    Strawman argument. I merely stated that alternate explanations are plausible.
    Rokiyo wrote: »
    Also, it's probably about time we stop pretending that only women get hypersexualised or objectified in video games. There are no shortage of video games out there that feature tall, extremely muscular male protagonists with chiselled jaw lines and piercing eyes. In the very same game we are discussing right now, we have the other primary protagnist himself: Master Chief. While not brazenly displaying bulging muscles, he is still not only extremely tall and broad-shouldered, but he is also presented as the ultimate alpha male and warrior. While women are often harshly judged on their appearance (likely due to a male's primitive instinct to select mates on the basis of their apparent fertility), men are equally often harshly judged by their social dominance (likely due to a female's primitive instinct to select mates on the basis of their apparent ability to provide and protect).
    Congratulations! You're the millionth person to re-enact this comic. But let's just pretend that maybe you're right for a moment. Guess what! Women aren't all driven by evolutionary forces to find attractive the men who look the most like Arnold Schwarzenegger and act the most like Arnold Schwarzenegger as Conan the Barbarian. Guess which male character from The Avengers has the most people crushing on him! Is it Thor, because his obvious strength makes him irresistible to the illogical primitive instinct that drives all women? Is it Captain America, who, due to his place of leadership and his social dominance, captivates the primitive female instinct to select people with the best chance of providing and protecting? No, it's Loki. So now it looks like your creepy evolutionary biotruths about what women find attractive maybe aren't always right.
    Strawman argument. I did not implicitly or explicitly suggest that women are sexually objectifying Master Chief in an equivalent fashion to how men may be sexually objectifying Cortana. I suggested that women are often judged by their appearance, and that men are often judged by their social characteristics. I'm also amused at your suggestion that an fictitious example of fiercely tenacious underdog with a tragic past (who also happens to be a Prince, a wizard and immortal) somehow disproves my suggestion that tens of thousands years ago women instinctively selected for men more likely to keep their children alive and nourished, and that this trait is still likely to be present in a modern woman's amygdala.
    But let's pretend they are! You've just argued that the portrayal of Master Chief in the Halo games is sexist. I guess that's two strikes against the game now!
    Uh yes, that video games are equally unrealistic in their depictions of both genders was indeed my point. I do believe that video game depictions of both males and females has the potential to undermine the self-esteem and/or bias the expectations of those who view them. I do not believe that the privilege of stating "I'm the only victim in the village" should go to women alone. This is not false equivalence. I am not suggesting men and women are facing the same challenges. I am suggesting that men and women are both negatively impacted by modern media.
    I'm sure you don't see any problem with video games having these sorts of depictions of women. Maybe it's fine because the men are all idealized or because they also have lots of non-sexualized women or because all of these sexualized women are sexualized because that fits their character or because sexy women just look good and they're not being sexist they're just making pretty games or whatever.
    Wrong. I do have a problem with it. I believe this issue is part of a much bigger picture revolving around how all humans generally categorise and label each other. I believe sexism and racism are symptoms of much deeper issue with humanity as a whole. That being said, I find it hard to continue defending socially disadvantaged groups when they begin fervently believing in notions such as "some alpha males unfairly assert their dominance over others therefore no males anywhere have the right to claim emotional damage or social disadvantage".

    Suggesting that men have no grounds to be upset by the portrayal of men in video games is alienating an entire group of people who could otherwise become supportive of feminist causes.

  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Rokiyo wrote: »
    --Quintuple post due to impressive forum lag: deleted --

    For future reference this had nothing to do with forum lag and everything to do with you repeatedly mashing the button while your post was in the moderation queue.

  • PandabearcakesPandabearcakes Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Hey, a sexism debate!

    My view on this has always been pretty simple: want to pander to men by sporting scantily-clad women in perfect bodies? Make sure you don't forget your female audience and see to it that there's a male equivalent.

    Everyone's happy.

    "Oh but the impossible standards to live up to-"

    It most definitely is NOT fair to women to always be the only gender that is grossly sexualized (firefox assures me this is not a word) but there are so many other unreasonable traits and idealized versions of human beings in movies and videogames that it would be silly not to expect them to also include striperrific females. The answer is in making sure there is beefcake for females and to represent female characters in other roles that don't require them to be in perfect shape. Provide worth to a female character beyond sexiness, just as you do with males.

    Granny Weatherwax from the discworld series is a good example of what I'm talking about. Why is it that Yoda is incredibly popular but there are so few female equivalents out there, if any?

    And it wouldn't hurt to have one of those kids-from-the-village protagonists in all jrpgs to be a girl every once in a while. And maybe, just maybe, don't make her a little frail summoner in a dress.

    All I'm trying to say here is that there should be fair treatment for both sides. You can't expect the media to quit pandering to the male gaze, but you should most certainly fight for equality.

    Pandabearcakes on
  • RokiyoRokiyo Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Rokiyo wrote: »
    --Quintuple post due to impressive forum lag: deleted --

    For future reference this had nothing to do with forum lag and everything to do with you repeatedly mashing the button while your post was in the moderation queue.
    Noted.

    I was not aware of a moderation queue as my post seemed to just silently vanish after I had hit the Post Reply button. I didn't mash the button either: After getting over my initial distress, I rewrote what I couldn't salvage from the clipboard, and repeatedly refreshed the page before each attempt at reposting. My fifth and final attempt was where I simply posted the word "test" (which apparently skipped the moderation queue), at which point I was then able to paste in my post as an edit (which also skipped the moderation queue).

    Thank you for cleaning up the mess, I do appreciate it. Now that I know a moderation queue exists, I will be more patient in future.

  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Oh, OK. Thanks for clearing that up.
    I think your point was probably "who are you to say that Cortana doesn't want to dress like a stripper, maybe that's just part of who she is so it makes no sense to criticize her!"

    Nope.
    But Bungie invented Cortana.

    This was my point. Neither you or I are in a better position to make pronouncements about what's part of her character...
    It's sexist that Cortana is sexy as hell because that's not part of her character.

    ...Than the people who invented her.

    You can criticize Bungie for making sexiness a part of her character if you feel it's gratuitous or sexist, but you don't get to define what the character is.


  • RokiyoRokiyo Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    The answer is in making sure there is beefcake for females and to represent female characters in other roles that don't require them to be in perfect shape.
    While I agree completely with your statements, I believe TychoCelchuuu is arguing this to be a case of "false equivalence".

    Long story short, the theory goes that men design sexy females in video games because that is what they fantasise women to be, and that men design beefcake males in video games because that is what they fantasise themselves to be. Other factors such as some women being attracted to muscular men, some women being attracted to curvy women, some real world women having more athletic and/or curvy bodies than the fictitious Cortana, and some video game art design teams being comprised of both men and women are all considered to be irrelevant.

    All software developers are male, all males are incapable of perceiving women as more than biological masturbatory aids, etc etc.

    Rokiyo on
  • OddfishOddfish On opposite weeks In odd numbered monthsRegistered User regular
    Kat-Spartan-320-630x606.jpg

    I find it hard to be mad at a video game series for having a "super-model" figure A.I. when they balance that very same theme with an amputee with a "butch" haircut and features that are not "traditionally" considered attractive by the majority of males.

    This video games/entertainment industry is sexist argument is old. Glad it hijacked a thread about a funny webcomic.

    Anyhow, good work Gabe and Tycho yet again. I was waiting for the Halo strip :)

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Halo's pretty good about this stuff in general, especially with the female Marines and Spartans

    It's why Cortana, in the vacuum of Halo, is pretty all right. She comes across like she's slowly going crazy, which she has been for three games now

    I was still kinda taken aback the first time I noticed she had boobs though

    dN0T6ur.png
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Rokiyo wrote: »
    I'm sure you don't see any problem with video games having these sorts of depictions of women. Maybe it's fine because the men are all idealized or because they also have lots of non-sexualized women or because all of these sexualized women are sexualized because that fits their character or because sexy women just look good and they're not being sexist they're just making pretty games or whatever.
    Wrong. I do have a problem with it. I believe this issue is part of a much bigger picture revolving around how all humans generally categorise and label each other. I believe sexism and racism are symptoms of much deeper issue with humanity as a whole. That being said, I find it hard to continue defending socially disadvantaged groups when they begin fervently believing in notions such as "some alpha males unfairly assert their dominance over others therefore no males anywhere have the right to claim emotional damage or social disadvantage".

    Suggesting that men have no grounds to be upset by the portrayal of men in video games is alienating an entire group of people who could otherwise become supportive of feminist causes.
    For someone who has accused me of making strawman arguments, this is pretty much the definition of one. I don't think I've ever said that alpha males have no right to claim emotional damage or social disadvantage and I don't think I've ever said that men have no grounds to be upset by the portrayal of men in video games. In fact earlier you quoted me saying that the portrayal of Master Chief might be sexist too for all I care.

    TychoCelchuuu on
  • XaviarXaviar Registered User regular
    Perfect. You can be the Master Chief to my Cortana any day.

  • FramlingFramling FaceHead Geebs has bad ideas.Registered User regular
    It's Occam's Razor. One hypothesis is that Cortana has big boobs because that's more or less the default in what is generally a pretty sexist industry. The opposing hypothesis is that, because she's an AI, she can look like whatever she wants; for some reason, she subconsciously wants to look like a naked lady with big boobs, even though this quirk doesn't really show itself in any other personality traits; also, it's the future and probably it's more socially acceptable for women to be basically naked and have giant boobs.

    I'm not interested in getting embroiled in a big argument; I haven't played any of Halo 4, or Halo Reach, and I never finished Halo 2. Some of the counterexamples of other female characters from the game lead me to believe Bungie/343/whoever are generally better about this shit than average. And I do think there are interesting discussions to be had about, e.g., objectification of male characters in the media (discussions which can't happen if everyone gets their hackles up as soon as someone else suggests maybe they're doing something bad).

    I'm just hoping to clarify why, in general, semi-plausible explanations and excuses for why things that look like objectification actually aren't usually just end up ringing false. "Objectification" is just a much simpler hypothesis, so there's a pretty heavy burden of proof on any alternate explanations. The more elaborate explanation could be convincing, if there were any evidence to support it. Like the creators making any statement at all to that effect, for starters.

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  • ShoemakerShoemaker Registered User regular
    Rokiyo wrote: »
    The answer is in making sure there is beefcake for females and to represent female characters in other roles that don't require them to be in perfect shape.
    While I agree completely with your statements, I believe TychoCelchuuu is arguing this to be a case of "false equivalence".

    Long story short, the theory goes that men design sexy females in video games because that is what they fantasise women to be, and that men design beefcake males in video games because that is what they fantasise themselves to be. Other factors such as some women being attracted to muscular men, some women being attracted to curvy women, some real world women having more athletic and/or curvy bodies than the fictitious Cortana, and some video game art design teams being comprised of both men and women are all considered to be irrelevant.

    All software developers are male, all males are incapable of perceiving women as more than biological masturbatory aids, etc etc.

    The beefcake men really aren't there for the ladies.

    If developer were to design male characters to please women (akin to video game females being designed to please men), we'd have every male character end up like the men from Twilight. Maybe in the next Gears of War it can be Edward and Jacob rather than Marcus and Dom.

    Now imagine if 95% of video game men were just like the twilight boys and you can start to see our problem with the 95% of female characters being nothing but eye candy.

    Sexy ain't a bad thing but when it's the only defining attribute of a character you run into a problem.

  • ShoemakerShoemaker Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Edit: double post

    Shoemaker on
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Oh, OK. Thanks for clearing that up.
    I think your point was probably "who are you to say that Cortana doesn't want to dress like a stripper, maybe that's just part of who she is so it makes no sense to criticize her!"

    Nope.
    But Bungie invented Cortana.

    This was my point. Neither you or I are in a better position to make pronouncements about what's part of her character...
    It's sexist that Cortana is sexy as hell because that's not part of her character.

    ...Than the people who invented her.

    You can criticize Bungie for making sexiness a part of her character if you feel it's gratuitous or sexist, but you don't get to define what the character is.


    Please elaborate on how sex appeal is vital to Cortana the character. What makes you feel that this was, by design, a large part of who she is as a person?

    Soul Silver FC: 1935 3141 6240
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  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Oh, OK. Thanks for clearing that up.
    I think your point was probably "who are you to say that Cortana doesn't want to dress like a stripper, maybe that's just part of who she is so it makes no sense to criticize her!"

    Nope.
    But Bungie invented Cortana.

    This was my point. Neither you or I are in a better position to make pronouncements about what's part of her character...
    It's sexist that Cortana is sexy as hell because that's not part of her character.

    ...Than the people who invented her.

    You can criticize Bungie for making sexiness a part of her character if you feel it's gratuitous or sexist, but you don't get to define what the character is.


    Please elaborate on how sex appeal is vital to Cortana the character. What makes you feel that this was, by design, a large part of who she is as a person?

    I don't feel that. I don't feel anything about Cortana, or about anything else to do with Halo for that matter. I've never played a Halo game besides the first one, and I didn't finish that.

    But its ridiculous for random people on a forum to say "That's not part of her character" like they have some sort of authority. The people who made the character made looking sexy part of her character. Therefore it is. You can say it doesn't make sense for them to make the character the way they did, you can question their reasons, you can call them sexist, you can say "You've made this character shitty and I'm not putting up with your shenanigans anymore, fuck this game."

    And you may very well be right. But you don't get to define the character because the character isn't yours.

    A better way of expressing the point Tycho is trying to make with his Bayonetta-Cortana comparison is: "I feel Bayonetta's sexiness is consistent with and believable with the rest of her characterization, but I do not feel that to be true in the case of Cortana's sexiness."

    But to declare that sexiness is part of the character for one and not the other is silly. Sexiness is part of the character of both, per the people doing the characterization. The argument is that one is acceptable characterization and the other is shitty characterization.

    Gaslight on
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