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  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    How about having such pisspoor medical care people go to mexico for medication

    ?Como se dice "colonoscopy"?

    "Demostración del burro."

    nibXTE7.png
    Tiger Burning
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    why is mulan flanking tupac now

    look at dat face

    obF2Wuw.png
  • VanguardVanguard But now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    I thrive in uncertainty but after years of being a position where I feel no accountability at all it's hard for me to tell if I should be worried about something going wrong that is partially my fault. So maybe this is nothing; then again, maybe it is.

  • SarksusSarksus ATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    How bout we ask the people he has killed and their families about his "inhumane" treatment?

    This is a common rebuttal but its always wrong, and born in emotion. It's not about empathy for the prisoner. It's about us avoiding the dark urges we feel. We should not promote sadism or revenge in ourselves. This shouldn't be controversial.

    exactly none of the complaints seem self-evidently necessarily borne of casual sadism

    adherence to evaluable procedure is an objective good in itself when it comes to bureaucracies, like a prison, which inherently have problems with transparency. If this procedure is inconvenient, tough.

    I don't think hiding behind procedure frees us from the consequences of falling prey to our self-destructive desires.

    I think falling prey to self-destructive desires is only human, and prison procedure has to recognize it employs humans and has to restrict the tendency via procedural rigor, not invoke Hope and Goodness in Human Nature

    I think that's pessimistic and self-defeating.

    And I don't think this procedure accomplishes that goal.

  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Is that normal for a Norway prison or has the country succumbed to terror despite the PM's inspirational insistence otherwise?

    Pretty normal, yeah.

    You didn't actually believe our prisons were like holidays, right?

    Not holidays, but less beholden to sadism and revenge than what we enjoy in the United States.

    are you saying this is sadistic?

    A lot of these measures are obviously rooted in sadism, yeah. They aren't pulling nails, I'm not suggesting he's being tortured, but some of these things are being done for the enjoyment of the prison staff and possibly the other criminals who are less immoral.

    which ones?

    ftOqU21.png
  • VanguardVanguard But now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    How about having such pisspoor medical care people go to mexico for medication

    ?Como se dice "colonoscopy"?

    NO LO QUIERO

  • TehSlothTehSloth Hit Or Miss I Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    How about having such pisspoor medical care people go to mexico for medication

    ?Como se dice "colonoscopy"?

    NO LO QUIERO

    A family friend just actually went over for a lap band surgery or gastic bypass or something of that nature. Apparently it was quite pleasant.

    FC: 1993-7778-8872 PSN: TehSloth Xbox: SlothTeh
    twitch.tv/tehsloth
  • SarksusSarksus ATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered User regular
    Sarksus wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    How bout we ask the people he has killed and their families about his "inhumane" treatment?

    This is a common rebuttal but its always wrong, and born in emotion. It's not about empathy for the prisoner. It's about us avoiding the dark urges we feel. We should not promote sadism or revenge in ourselves. This shouldn't be controversial.

    exactly none of the complaints seem self-evidently necessarily borne of casual sadism

    adherence to evaluable procedure is an objective good in itself when it comes to bureaucracies, like a prison, which inherently have problems with transparency. If this procedure is inconvenient, tough.

    I don't think hiding behind procedure frees us from the consequences of falling prey to our self-destructive desires.

    I don't think the desire to punish transgressors of societal norms is self-destructive. I think it's probably pretty central to having societies at all.

    I think being in prison is sufficient punishment. I think I illustrated it isn't prison itself that I take issue with.

    Tiger BurningSolomaxwell6
  • VanguardVanguard But now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    How about having such pisspoor medical care people go to mexico for medication

    ?Como se dice "colonoscopy"?

    "Demostración del burro."

    I know someone who has seen a donkey show.

    It was awful, is the gist of it.

  • CindersCinders Whose sails were black when it was windy Registered User regular
    About the only complaint that I could see maybe being legitimate would be the lights one. But requiring someone to ask to turn off the lights is not cruelty.

  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    How bout we ask the people he has killed and their families about his "inhumane" treatment?

    This is a common rebuttal but its always wrong, and born in emotion. It's not about empathy for the prisoner. It's about us avoiding the dark urges we feel. We should not promote sadism or revenge in ourselves. This shouldn't be controversial.

    exactly none of the complaints seem self-evidently necessarily borne of casual sadism

    adherence to evaluable procedure is an objective good in itself when it comes to bureaucracies, like a prison, which inherently have problems with transparency. If this procedure is inconvenient, tough.

    I don't think hiding behind procedure frees us from the consequences of falling prey to our self-destructive desires.

    I don't think the desire to punish transgressors of societal norms is self-destructive. I think it's probably pretty central to having societies at all.

    I think being in prison is sufficient punishment. I think I illustrated it isn't prison itself that I take issue with.

    what are the specific measures you don't like?

    I wanna discuss this.


    Will try to remain as emotionally detached as I am able.

    ftOqU21.png
  • Solomaxwell6Solomaxwell6 Registered User regular
    America is a civilized society, and our Eighth Amendment ensures all prisoners will receive enough butter for their bread.

  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    I fail to see how anything he is complaining about is indicative of sadism

    if anything it is indicative of a very strictly run prison (and that is what you want in a prison)

    fuck gendered marketing
    CindersEcho
  • skippydumptruckskippydumptruck begin again Registered User regular
    @dasuberedward

    sounds like best buy will be selling a 40" hd tv on black friday for $179 (40" Toshiba 40E220U 1080p LCD HDTV)

  • GooeyGooey (\/)┌¶─¶┐(\/) pinch pinchRegistered User regular
    my grandmother had leg surgery in mexico
    because she fell and broke her leg there

    919UOwT.png
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Sarksus wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    How bout we ask the people he has killed and their families about his "inhumane" treatment?

    This is a common rebuttal but its always wrong, and born in emotion. It's not about empathy for the prisoner. It's about us avoiding the dark urges we feel. We should not promote sadism or revenge in ourselves. This shouldn't be controversial.

    exactly none of the complaints seem self-evidently necessarily borne of casual sadism

    adherence to evaluable procedure is an objective good in itself when it comes to bureaucracies, like a prison, which inherently have problems with transparency. If this procedure is inconvenient, tough.

    I don't think hiding behind procedure frees us from the consequences of falling prey to our self-destructive desires.

    I think falling prey to self-destructive desires is only human, and prison procedure has to recognize it employs humans and has to restrict the tendency via procedural rigor, not invoke Hope and Goodness in Human Nature

    I think that's pessimistic and self-defeating.

    And I don't think this procedure accomplishes that goal.

    one achieves humanity in treatment by minimizing discretion and maximizing third-party evaluation that some standard of treatment has been met, because the people being interacted with have no power to decline by themselves. I do not think it is pessimism to say that we automatically tends toward abuse if we encourage discretionary judgment as to what would make prison life better.

    ronya on
    aRkpc.gif
    Cinders
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    @dasuberedward

    sounds like best buy will be selling a 40" hd tv on black friday for $179 (40" Toshiba 40E220U 1080p LCD HDTV)

    In-store? Or online?

    nibXTE7.png
  • GooeyGooey (\/)┌¶─¶┐(\/) pinch pinchRegistered User regular
    Elldren wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    I fail to see how anything he is complaining about is indicative of sadism

    if anything it is indicative of a very strictly run prison (and that is what you want in a prison)

    uhhh european prisons are supposed to be fun didnt you know that

    919UOwT.png
    surrealitycheck
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    I wanna discuss specific measures instead of generality.

    ftOqU21.png
  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    Cinders wrote: »
    About the only complaint that I could see maybe being legitimate would be the lights one. But requiring someone to ask to turn off the lights is not cruelty.

    If anything it is more freedom than is strictly required to be given. Most prisoners have no control over their lights: there are set times when they go on or off

    fuck gendered marketing
    Cinders
  • skippydumptruckskippydumptruck begin again Registered User regular
    @dasuberedward

    sounds like best buy will be selling a 40" hd tv on black friday for $179 (40" Toshiba 40E220U 1080p LCD HDTV)

    In-store? Or online?

    I think in store

    it's probably one of those things where each store has like 5 to get people in line

    I mention it because DUE was thinking about getting a new TV a few days ago

  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Dig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tube regular
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    How bout we ask the people he has killed and their families about his "inhumane" treatment?

    This is a common rebuttal but its always wrong, and born in emotion. It's not about empathy for the prisoner. It's about us avoiding the dark urges we feel. We should not promote sadism or revenge in ourselves. This shouldn't be controversial.

    exactly none of the complaints seem self-evidently necessarily borne of casual sadism

    adherence to evaluable procedure is an objective good in itself when it comes to bureaucracies, like a prison, which inherently have problems with transparency. If this procedure is inconvenient, tough.

    I don't think hiding behind procedure frees us from the consequences of falling prey to our self-destructive desires.

    I don't think the desire to punish transgressors of societal norms is self-destructive. I think it's probably pretty central to having societies at all.

    I think being in prison is sufficient punishment. I think I illustrated it isn't prison itself that I take issue with.

    You did. I just disagree, and I might be in the minority around here on this, that the desire to punish is equivalent to the desire for revenge, or to sadism. But I agree that being locked away in prison, and subject to the myriad petty bureaucratic indignities of such, is probably sufficient.

    Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    Perhaps also we ought not to completely trust the mass-murderer's own assessment of his conditions.

    He may well be capable of prevarication.

    I figure I could take a bear.
    spool32CindersElldrenbowen
  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    Did I miss an explanation of the dude's situation?

  • Solomaxwell6Solomaxwell6 Registered User regular
    Sarksus is right, though. A lot of those complaints are petty (who gives a fuck about the butter?) but prison is ideally about rehabilitation and/or removal from society, not punishment. Stuff like providing a mop should be a no-brainer.

  • SarksusSarksus ATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered User regular
    Derp, stupid phone. Hold on, I'll write something longer

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    I wanna discuss specific measures instead of generality.

    alright, to make it concrete: granting guards the power to, say, make good-sense judgments about how much butter a prisoner gets and how promptly given the staff's priorities would probably permit prompter butter than "Inmate #232355 has requested additional butter. I have forwarded this request to the pantry. The pantry has issued a response and I have dispatched staff to retrieve the butter. The butter has arrived from the ..." and having to log everything. But the discretionary judgment wouldn't actually be used for the buttery good.

    It's easy to say: omg it's so obvious that he's being denied a mop to indulge in our sadism. But this kind of low-level discretion can't actually be permitted in a prison institution.

    ronya on
    aRkpc.gif
    CindersElldren
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    I bet prison butter isn't even that good. I mean I doubt they're serving him Plugra or Kerrygold.

    nibXTE7.png
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    I bet prison butter isn't even that good. I mean I doubt they're serving him Plugra or Kerrygold.

    Who the fuck buys name brand butter.

    I get generic like 5 lb boxes.

    Fuck the man.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • CindersCinders Whose sails were black when it was windy Registered User regular
    I bet prison butter isn't even that good. I mean I doubt they're serving him Plugra or Kerrygold.

    I dunno, Norwegian butter has to be pretty good. They had shortages of it that one time.

  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Dig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tube regular
    I bet prison butter isn't even that good. I mean I doubt they're serving him Plugra or Kerrygold.

    If the guards were given discretion, he would only be given I Can't Believe It's Not Butter!

    Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
    bowen
  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    I wanna discuss specific measures instead of generality.

    alright, to make it concrete: granting guards the power to, say, make good-sense judgments about how much butter a prisoner gets and how promptly given the staff's priorities would probably permit prompter butter than "Inmate #232355 has requested additional butter. I have forwarded this request to the pantry. The pantry has issued a response and I have dispatched staff to retrieve the butter. The butter has arrived from the ..." and having to log everything. But the discretionary judgment wouldn't actually be used for the buttery good.

    It's easy to say: omg it's so obvious that he's being denied a mop to indulge in our sadism. But this kind of low-level discretion can't actually be permitted in a prison institution.

    When you see institutions with lots of individual discretion being given to staff what you inevitably end up seeing is a string of abuses by said staff

    fuck gendered marketing
    ronya
  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    i don't buy butter

    because i'm anorexic

  • skippydumptruckskippydumptruck begin again Registered User regular
    I dunno why you'd assume saidism

    it's prison, it'll kinda suck

    the food won't be great, maybe people aren't super concerned with getting you stuff quickly

    your bedtime gets regulated and a lot of other stuff is outside your control

    overall it sounds quite a bit better than basic training

  • CabezoneCabezone Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    I bet prison butter isn't even that good. I mean I doubt they're serving him Plugra or Kerrygold.

    Who the fuck buys name brand butter.

    I get generic like 5 lb boxes.

    Fuck the man.

    Kerrygold Irish is the best butter.

    spool32
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    I bet prison butter isn't even that good. I mean I doubt they're serving him Plugra or Kerrygold.

    Who the fuck buys name brand butter.

    I get generic like 5 lb boxes.

    Fuck the man.

    People with good taste. Who don't buy their butter the same way they buy their underpants.

    nibXTE7.png
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    You're not running some one-man prison cell here, you're setting policy to affect managers to affect staff to affect inmates. You can't expect to micromanage staff with a carefully-specified series of rules of when prisoners may be granted a mop. You can't give them discretionary power either because we all know how that works out. So: no mop and at best a fairly slow appeals board.

    aRkpc.gif
    CindersElldren
  • GooeyGooey (\/)┌¶─¶┐(\/) pinch pinchRegistered User regular
    land o lakes spreadable 4 lyfe

    fuck hard butter in its dumb face

    919UOwT.png
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    I get Flora light.[/wimp]

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    All my underpants are purchased individually, with the utmost care and attention.

This discussion has been closed.