I used to work for a medicinal pot clinic - a pretty big one, actually. We sold ungodly amounts of shitty brown Mexican weed (after paying a couple of stoners a few bucks over minimum wage to pick through it and pull the dead flies and cockroaches out).
A lot of people really don't care what quality of pot they smoke.
I don't know what kind of clinic you worked at, but all the ones I've seen have a wide range of very good pot along with shitty strains. At this one clinic I just visited in California, I saw Master Kush, Northern Lights, Alohaberry, and more all available to patients. The strain of marijuana is very important, as the different effects they produce have different effects on medical conditions. If I can find the list of the different strains that correspond to each disease I'll post it. Also, Mexican pot can be shitty but it can also be very, very, very dank.
I never said we didn't. A lot of customers wanted specific strains, too, or only wanted whatever the blue star sativa of the day was or whatever.
I'm just challenging the notion that no pot smokers want shitty cheap weed. Plenty do, enough to form a market. Some people want whatever's cheap and plentiful.
Those same people are already tobacco company's biggest customer base. Broke people. Broke people don't take the time to go to the local cannabis club and pick out good shit. They're going to buy a pack of joints for seven or eight dollars. The tobacco companies will sell cheap packs, expensive packs, and everything in between. Cannabis will become a thing of convenience like ciggs and quarts of oil are today. These people buy what they can afford. They already get their smokes this way, why wouldn't they do the same for bud? This also holds true to Natty, VC.
Damn fine point you make here.
I was a proponent of full out legalization until I read this thread, but all the things that you have said would most likely happen. As a large hater of the tobacco industry, I could totally imagine them diving head first into this the moment it's legalized. Why wouldn't they?
What's to stop small-time businesspeople from growing good dope to sell to people who want good dope? The majority of consumers may be content to buy shitty, pesticide-soaked California produce from Safeway, but there is still a hugely profitable market for premium, organic local produce wherever it's available.
Unless they tightly restrict the production of the shit, I don't think pot enthusiasts (especially those living in hotbeds of good bud like BC or Montreal) need to fear legalization.
I used to work for a medicinal pot clinic - a pretty big one, actually. We sold ungodly amounts of shitty brown Mexican weed (after paying a couple of stoners a few bucks over minimum wage to pick through it and pull the dead flies and cockroaches out).
A lot of people really don't care what quality of pot they smoke.
I don't know what kind of clinic you worked at, but all the ones I've seen have a wide range of very good pot along with shitty strains. At this one clinic I just visited in California, I saw Master Kush, Northern Lights, Alohaberry, and more all available to patients. The strain of marijuana is very important, as the different effects they produce have different effects on medical conditions. If I can find the list of the different strains that correspond to each disease I'll post it. Also, Mexican pot can be shitty but it can also be very, very, very dank.
I never said we didn't. A lot of customers wanted specific strains, too, or only wanted whatever the blue star sativa of the day was or whatever.
I'm just challenging the notion that no pot smokers want shitty cheap weed. Plenty do, enough to form a market. Some people want whatever's cheap and plentiful.
Those same people are already tobacco company's biggest customer base. Broke people. Broke people don't take the time to go to the local cannabis club and pick out good shit. They're going to buy a pack of joints for seven or eight dollars. The tobacco companies will sell cheap packs, expensive packs, and everything in between. Cannabis will become a thing of convenience like ciggs and quarts of oil are today. These people buy what they can afford. They already get their smokes this way, why wouldn't they do the same for bud? This also holds true to Natty, VC.
Damn fine point you make here.
I was a proponent of full out legalization until I read this thread, but all the things that you have said would most likely happen. As a large hater of the tobacco industry, I could totally imagine them diving head first into this the moment it's legalized. Why wouldn't they?
Well, I personally dont care if tobacco companies got into the market if the entire thing was freely legalized. Weed is so easy to grow that tobacco companies wouldn't be able to reap the profits, nor would they have any particular advantage since anyone and everyone could freely compete with them. Tobacco is very very difficult to grow, which is why it is so profitable. Weed on the other hand would not be, and so even if tobacco companies started selling it, I would just buy stuff that wasn't from them, of which there would be plenty.
I think there's probably an 'organic' market for every product. The big companies would produce the higher end and mass market stuff, the small timers would fill niche and gourmet consumption.
It'd be nice to have an herb garden if it was legal. MJ leaves drawn with butter are really quite tasty.
Did everyone miss the part where even though there is such a thing as Natty, I can still opt to buy Guinness instead?
Did you miss the last sentence of my post?
@ Tycho: Cannabis grows in almost any climate, but growing a plant and keeping it alive is much different from growing a plant and keeping it continually producing high quality cannabis buds. High quality bud is actually very hard to grow. Strains that have been bred to yield high quality are very picky. It would be easier provided it were legalized, but do not fool yourself. It isn't that easy.
And VC, your whole thing with Natty and Guinness is a war that's been raging between stoners since they figured out there's good bud and shitty bud. Some people refuse to smoke shwag. Some people refuse to pay $60/eighth. Considering low and middle class makes up the majority of the population as a whole I'd be willing to wager those same low and middle class people make up the majority of the population that smokes cannabis. They're going to buy what is both convenient and affordable. Enter the tobacco companies.
This also brings into question just what the legislation would look like if this happened. I think legalizing would be a lot more difficult than people imagine, rather than just decriminalizing it. I don't want to buy cannabis from tobacco companies, or from some small shop down the fucking street. I don't want some asshole trying to sell me purple kush haze or g-13 or any other dumbass name they tacked on to jack the price up. I want to grow my own in my back yard.
I'd rather there be no middle-men, instead no one should be allowed to sell any bud period. If you wish to partake you can grow your own. Decriminalize possession but not distribution. Also guys I'm really sorry I'm taking this sort of to heart because this issue is somewhat important to me. Not because I like smoking pot, but because our current legislation is complete and utter horseshit. Of course for America in the 21st century that's goddamned par for the course.
And VC, your whole thing with Natty and Guinness is a war that's been raging between stoners since they figured out there's good bud and shitty bud. Some people refuse to smoke shwag. Some people refuse to pay $60/eighth. Considering low and middle class makes up the majority of the population as a whole I'd be willing to wager those same low and middle class people make up the majority of the population that smokes cannabis. They're going to buy what is both convenient and affordable. Enter the tobacco companies.
The tobacco companies from whom I just bought a pack of (delicious) additive-free cigarettes? And who don't seem to be stopping anyone else from selling additive-free, hand-blended tobacco by the tin at vastly lower prices than manufactured/pre-packaged cigarettes? I don't buy the whole "if weed were legalized, good weed would disappear!" argument because it relies on the assumption that tobacco being legal has led to there being no good tobacco available. It's available, it's just not what most people smoke because most people have no taste. I can't figure out how this is supposed to convince me that weed shouldn't be legalized.
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ShogunHair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered Userregular
And VC, your whole thing with Natty and Guinness is a war that's been raging between stoners since they figured out there's good bud and shitty bud. Some people refuse to smoke shwag. Some people refuse to pay $60/eighth. Considering low and middle class makes up the majority of the population as a whole I'd be willing to wager those same low and middle class people make up the majority of the population that smokes cannabis. They're going to buy what is both convenient and affordable. Enter the tobacco companies.
The tobacco companies from whom I just bought a pack of (delicious) additive-free cigarettes? And who don't seem to be stopping anyone else from selling additive-free, hand-blended tobacco by the tin at vastly lower prices than manufactured/pre-packaged cigarettes? I don't buy the whole "if weed were legalized, good weed would disappear!" argument because it relies on the assumption that tobacco being legal has led to there being no good tobacco available. It's available, it's just not what most people smoke because most people have no taste. I can't figure out how this is supposed to convince me that weed shouldn't be legalized.
Good cannabis would not disappear. Like I said in a previous post tobacco companies will sell expensive packs of joints, cheap packs of joints, and whatever else they can come up with. And yeah you can go buy your own tobacco and roll your own ciggs, but the vast majority don't do that. We're catering to middle America VC, not you. They go buy a carton of USA Gold's or Marlboro's at a gas station or maybe a discount tobacco store.
Legalization is not the answer. It never will be. I'm sorry, but I'd rather fight for something feasible. No where in the world is cannabis 'legal.' Its only decriminalized in certain places to various extents. Legalization would solve one problem and create several more problems. I don't care about taxes and all that shit. I care about letting people be free to do what they want, and I care about stopping the prosecution of frivolous crimes. Stopping a college student being barred from any financial aid because he was nicked with a roach.
edit: I would give my left nut if I could find this goddamn report I read a couple years ago. It was on Erowid and now I can't find it for shit. Its similar to that book The Emperor Wears No Clothes but that's not it.
And VC, your whole thing with Natty and Guinness is a war that's been raging between stoners since they figured out there's good bud and shitty bud. Some people refuse to smoke shwag. Some people refuse to pay $60/eighth. Considering low and middle class makes up the majority of the population as a whole I'd be willing to wager those same low and middle class people make up the majority of the population that smokes cannabis. They're going to buy what is both convenient and affordable. Enter the tobacco companies.
The tobacco companies from whom I just bought a pack of (delicious) additive-free cigarettes? And who don't seem to be stopping anyone else from selling additive-free, hand-blended tobacco by the tin at vastly lower prices than manufactured/pre-packaged cigarettes? I don't buy the whole "if weed were legalized, good weed would disappear!" argument because it relies on the assumption that tobacco being legal has led to there being no good tobacco available. It's available, it's just not what most people smoke because most people have no taste. I can't figure out how this is supposed to convince me that weed shouldn't be legalized.
Good cannabis would not disappear. Like I said in a previous post tobacco companies will sell expensive packs of joints, cheap packs of joints, and whatever else they can come up with. And yeah you can go buy your own tobacco and roll your own ciggs, but the vast majority don't do that. We're catering to middle America VC, not you. They go buy a carton of USA Gold's or Marlboro's at a gas station or maybe a discount tobacco store.
Legalization is not the answer. It never will be. I'm sorry, but I'd rather fight for something feasible. No where in the world is cannabis 'legal.' Its only decriminalized in certain places to various extents. Legalization would solve one problem and create several more problems. I don't care about taxes and all that shit. I care about letting people be free to do what they want, and I care about stopping the prosecution of frivolous crimes. Stopping a college student being barred from any financial aid because he was nicked with a roach.
edit: I would give my left nut if I could find this goddamn report I read a couple years ago. It was on Erowid and now I can't find it for shit. Its similar to that book The Emperor Wears No Clothes but that's not it.
So wait, is your argument that we can't legalize weed because they sell Marlboros at gas stations or that we shouldn't want to legalize weed because you say it's impossible?
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ShogunHair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered Userregular
And VC, your whole thing with Natty and Guinness is a war that's been raging between stoners since they figured out there's good bud and shitty bud. Some people refuse to smoke shwag. Some people refuse to pay $60/eighth. Considering low and middle class makes up the majority of the population as a whole I'd be willing to wager those same low and middle class people make up the majority of the population that smokes cannabis. They're going to buy what is both convenient and affordable. Enter the tobacco companies.
The tobacco companies from whom I just bought a pack of (delicious) additive-free cigarettes? And who don't seem to be stopping anyone else from selling additive-free, hand-blended tobacco by the tin at vastly lower prices than manufactured/pre-packaged cigarettes? I don't buy the whole "if weed were legalized, good weed would disappear!" argument because it relies on the assumption that tobacco being legal has led to there being no good tobacco available. It's available, it's just not what most people smoke because most people have no taste. I can't figure out how this is supposed to convince me that weed shouldn't be legalized.
Good cannabis would not disappear. Like I said in a previous post tobacco companies will sell expensive packs of joints, cheap packs of joints, and whatever else they can come up with. And yeah you can go buy your own tobacco and roll your own ciggs, but the vast majority don't do that. We're catering to middle America VC, not you. They go buy a carton of USA Gold's or Marlboro's at a gas station or maybe a discount tobacco store.
Legalization is not the answer. It never will be. I'm sorry, but I'd rather fight for something feasible. No where in the world is cannabis 'legal.' Its only decriminalized in certain places to various extents. Legalization would solve one problem and create several more problems. I don't care about taxes and all that shit. I care about letting people be free to do what they want, and I care about stopping the prosecution of frivolous crimes. Stopping a college student being barred from any financial aid because he was nicked with a roach.
edit: I would give my left nut if I could find this goddamn report I read a couple years ago. It was on Erowid and now I can't find it for shit. Its similar to that book The Emperor Wears No Clothes but that's not it.
So wait, is your argument that we can't legalize weed because they sell Marlboros at gas stations or that we shouldn't want to legalize weed because you say it's impossible?
Nothing is impossible. However I have no inclination to continue the thread if you wish to continue acting this way. Since you clearly haven't done any real research and you'd rather nitpick at me with quibbles instead of actually listening I frankly don't want to waste my time. I will not change your mind. The last several pages have been a lot of fun chaps, but this is where I'd like to get off. This isn't worth getting stressed and worked up over.
Nothing is impossible. However I have no inclination to continue the thread if you wish to continue acting this way. Since you clearly haven't done any real research and you'd rather nitpick at me with quibbles instead of actually listening I frankly don't want to waste my time. I will not change your mind. The last several pages have been a lot of fun chaps, but this is where I'd like to get off. This isn't worth getting stressed and worked up over.
I'm listening but you're not saying anything coherent. You refuse to get to the part where something terrible happens. I also don't have to do your research for you and if you're not willing to even explain your point then even if I did have any obligation to prove your argument right for you I still wouldn't be able to. Because you haven't really given an argument. And pointing out ginormous holes in your argument != nitpicking with quibbles. What are you, a politician?
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JohnnyCacheStarting DefensePlace at the tableRegistered Userregular
edited August 2007
what does ANY effect of legalization on quality have to do with the ethical import of legalization?
I mean, who gives a shit what it does to the quality of weed
I want people out of prison for selling weed because that's fucking stupid.
Did everyone miss the part where even though there is such a thing as Natty, I can still opt to buy Guinness instead?
Did you miss the last sentence of my post?
@ Tycho: Cannabis grows in almost any climate, but growing a plant and keeping it alive is much different from growing a plant and keeping it continually producing high quality cannabis buds. High quality bud is actually very hard to grow. Strains that have been bred to yield high quality are very picky. It would be easier provided it were legalized, but do not fool yourself. It isn't that easy.
Its easy enough that thousands of people do it by themselves in their homes and make thousands of dollars from selling it. So, yeah, it really is that easy. I know people who've grown weed, and it was piece of cake. My friend did it when he was 15, zero gardening knowledge or experience, zero supplies except shitty seeds and a shovel, and only looked at the plants once every few days once they were out in the forest growing. It wasn't a stunning success, but it definitely produced bud, and that was from the incompetent efforts of a 15 year old. Tons of people grew in the area I grew up in, and no it is not hard in the least.
Growing hydroponically for the high quality stuff isn't difficult either, all the instructions possible are available easily online, its just a question of getting the system up and running in the first place. A few trial runs and you'll be set.
The amazing weed that is available today, weed that has been selectively bred for various attributes for decades does not require some massive corporation to grow it. It is now and has always been mostly grown by people who do it on their own or in small groups, people who usually have no prior experience in growing anything. This would not change if weed were legalized, the only thing that would change is that big companies would just produce a bunch of their own strains to sell.
What's to stop small-time businesspeople from growing good dope to sell to people who want good dope?
Year 20XX:
US Congress: "Hey, we're ready to legalize marijuana now."
Conservatives: "We don't want just anybody growing dope. We need to make sure it doesn't fund terrorism!"
Pharma lobby: "Yeah! It's a powerful drug, manufacture needs to be limited!"
Tobacco lobby: "Yeah! You should only allow licensed growers to grow marijuana!"
US Congress: "Um, I don't think that's in the spirit of free enter--"
Pharma & tobacco lobbies: "Here, have some $$$$."
US Congress: "Okay, you're right! Now who wants a license?"
Pharma lobby: "Me!"
Tobacco lobby: "Me!"
Small-time grower: "Me!"
US Congress: "Okay, so who has $100,000 for a licensing fee?"
Pharma lobby: "Me!"
Tobacco lobby: "Me!"
Small-time grower: "Oh shits."
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
There isn't just one tobacco company out there. They are numerous, and I have no doubt that a good number of the companies that can afford licenses would make themselves "high-end". Like a cigar company, but for weed.
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JohnnyCacheStarting DefensePlace at the tableRegistered Userregular
What's to stop small-time businesspeople from growing good dope to sell to people who want good dope?
Year 20XX:
US Congress: "Hey, we're ready to legalize marijuana now."
Conservatives: "We don't want just anybody growing dope. We need to make sure it doesn't fund terrorism!"
Pharma lobby: "Yeah! It's a powerful drug, manufacture needs to be limited!"
Tobacco lobby: "Yeah! You should only allow licensed growers to grow marijuana!"
US Congress: "Um, I don't think that's in the spirit of free enter--"
Pharma & tobacco lobbies: "Here, have some $$$$."
US Congress: "Okay, you're right! Now who wants a license?"
Pharma lobby: "Me!"
Tobacco lobby: "Me!"
Small-time grower: "Me!"
US Congress: "Okay, so who has $100,000 for a licensing fee?"
Pharma lobby: "Me!"
Tobacco lobby: "Me!"
Small-time grower: "Oh shits."
Cops in 20xx: "Oh, you grew some with no license? PAY A FINE YOU SCAMP"
cops now:"ON YOUR MOTHERFUCKING KNEES YOU MOTHERFUCKING PUSHER YOU THINK YOU CAN PEDAL THIS SHIT HERE GET READY FOR A VISIT FROM THE HEALTH INSPECTOR YOU LITTLE SUBURBAN FUCK"
To all the people who claim first world industrialists getting control of a legalized cannabis industry is a nightmare scenario, I ask how you could possibly think it's better now, when everything is in the hands of criminals. Oh sure, some stuff comes from communes, or perhaps a quaint old anthropology professor's back garden. But the vast majority of illicit cannabis throughout the world goes through the shadiest, dirtiest middlemen. Say what you want about big industries, but you'll know for sure what's going into what you're smoking. You won't, for instance, get bud mixed with silica crystals to make them appear bigger and denser, but are worse for your lungs than any cigarettes. Or Hash, spiked with meth or ketamine, mixed with mud to appear bigger, and/or stuffed up someone's anus for transportation.
To all the people who claim first world industrialists getting control of a legalized cannabis industry is a nightmare scenario, I ask how you could possibly think it's better now, when everything is in the hands of criminals. Oh sure, some stuff comes from communes, or perhaps a quaint old anthropology professor's back garden. But the vast majority of illicit cannabis throughout the world goes through the shadiest, dirtiest middlemen. Say what you want about big industries, but you'll know for sure what's going into what you're smoking. You won't, for instance, get bud mixed with silica crystals to make them appear bigger and denser, but are worse for your lungs than any cigarettes. Or Hash, spiked with meth or ketamine, mixed with mud to appear bigger, and/or stuffed up someone's anus for transportation.
Well they are saying that they would rather people be allowed to grow it themselves than to have to deal with either big corporations or the shady middlemen
To all the people who claim first world industrialists getting control of a legalized cannabis industry is a nightmare scenario, I ask how you could possibly think it's better now, when everything is in the hands of criminals. Oh sure, some stuff comes from communes, or perhaps a quaint old anthropology professor's back garden. But the vast majority of illicit cannabis throughout the world goes through the shadiest, dirtiest middlemen. Say what you want about big industries, but you'll know for sure what's going into what you're smoking. You won't, for instance, get bud mixed with silica crystals to make them appear bigger and denser, but are worse for your lungs than any cigarettes. Or Hash, spiked with meth or ketamine, mixed with mud to appear bigger, and/or stuffed up someone's anus for transportation.
Well they are saying that they would rather people be allowed to grow it themselves than to have to deal with either big corporations or the shady middlemen
If legalized, wouldn't it be perfectly legal to cultivate it yourself, just like you can grow your own tobacco (meh good luck with that though) and brew your own booze? I suspect it'd even become easier for the average person to grow.
Did everyone miss the part where even though there is such a thing as Natty, I can still opt to buy Guinness instead?
Did you miss the last sentence of my post?
@ Tycho: Cannabis grows in almost any climate, but growing a plant and keeping it alive is much different from growing a plant and keeping it continually producing high quality cannabis buds. High quality bud is actually very hard to grow. Strains that have been bred to yield high quality are very picky. It would be easier provided it were legalized, but do not fool yourself. It isn't that easy.
Its easy enough that thousands of people do it by themselves in their homes and make thousands of dollars from selling it. So, yeah, it really is that easy. I know people who've grown weed, and it was piece of cake. My friend did it when he was 15, zero gardening knowledge or experience, zero supplies except shitty seeds and a shovel, and only looked at the plants once every few days once they were out in the forest growing. It wasn't a stunning success, but it definitely produced bud, and that was from the incompetent efforts of a 15 year old. Tons of people grew in the area I grew up in, and no it is not hard in the least.
Growing hydroponically for the high quality stuff isn't difficult either, all the instructions possible are available easily online, its just a question of getting the system up and running in the first place. A few trial runs and you'll be set.
The amazing weed that is available today, weed that has been selectively bred for various attributes for decades does not require some massive corporation to grow it. It is now and has always been mostly grown by people who do it on their own or in small groups, people who usually have no prior experience in growing anything. This would not change if weed were legalized, the only thing that would change is that big companies would just produce a bunch of their own strains to sell.
The vast majority of weed right now comes from the huge multi-million dollar criminal organizations anyway. Legalization would put it in the hands of the Tobacco companies, sure, but I agree with Tycho; homegrown weed would be what it always has been: a steady source that's in the minority.
The vast majority of weed right now comes from the huge multi-million dollar criminal organizations anyway.
Yeah, that kind of brings up another issue. Is smoking weed unethical for this reason? Have we talked about that? How does one make sure one is socially conscious about where they get their bud?
The vast majority of weed right now comes from the huge multi-million dollar criminal organizations anyway.
Yeah, that kind of brings up another issue. Is smoking weed unethical for this reason? Have we talked about that? How does one make sure one is socially conscious about where they get their bud?
By refusing to buy unless they know/can verify who and where it came from and went through. Will people actually do it? No. It's damn near impossible unless you live in a third world country or commune. But I'm sure they/we would all argue that the breach of ethics came from criminalizing it on the basis of smear campaign misinformation to begin with. Would we buy coffee from the dredges of society if it were banned for no good reason, or validate such a ban by just refraining?
By refusing to buy unless they know/can verify who and where it came from and went through. Will people actually do it? No. It's damn near impossible unless you live in a third world country or commune.
...
That depends entirely on where you live.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
By refusing to buy unless they know/can verify who and where it came from and went through. Will people actually do it? No. It's damn near impossible unless you live in a third world country or commune.
...
That depends entirely on where you live.
I'd say it depends more on who you know. If you don't know the right people, finding it is going to be hard enough, let alone finding a morally clean channel. I said third world countries because people in *most* such places tend not to bother importing/smuggling since the police can be bought off like eBay items. ergo, it's mostly locally grown.
This has probably already been posted, but here goes. I think drugs are stupid, and don't use them because I've never once felt the need. There are other, more religious, reasons for my dislike of them, but whatever.
The debate I have going with myself is this, though: should drugs, or at least common, less harmful ones like pot, be legalized? I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I think legalization would be great just for crime, and getting people out in the open means that it would be easier to help them kick their habits. On the other hand, maybe any support of drugs is a bad thing in the long run, since in that same long run I believe they are an inevitable and maybe inexorable ruin for people who use them and those around them. I flip-flop back and forth once and a while, but usually I'm for legalization. It's probably the lesser of two evils at least.
Also, if you're going to do drugs then please keep that shit to yourself. I barely even go to concerts any more because some asshole lights up a joint without fail and the smell of that stuff makes me queasy. And don't ask me to try shit. It's a good thing my Peer Pressure immunity is at 95%, because every time some donk has a few drugs they want me to get in on it. Do what you want, sure, but the line is drawn where it affects other people.
Uh, yeah. I realize that people are going to do stupid shit, regardless. How many people have told me that they can't stand the taste of beer, or alcohol in general, and only drink because they want to get drunk? Dozens. And I've seen them drink beer after awful beer, and then puke all over shit and walk around in a general daze for hours. Then the next weekend they want to do it again. It's idiotic, but they're going to do it. It's not quite the same way with pot; I think the reasons some people get into that drug are more complicated. But regardless of whatever happens people are going to do it. If it's out in the open then at least they can get help.
You are sorely mistaken if you believe that any drug use will lead to eventual ruin. Maybe harder drugs such as cocaine and heroin, but only those because those are chemically addictive and not that hard to OD on. That's why we draw the line at alcohol (which I actually think is a shaky line because people can OD on alcohol, albeit very difficultily).
The "soft" drugs are in the vast majority used solely for recreational purposes, and most people that use them are not in any danger of having to change how their life functions by using it. There are plenty of cases that it does affect their life, but this is no different from the random WoW addict who goes bankrupt from spending all his money on gold.
I would never say that drugs are the only addiction, or that "soft" drugs, as you put it, are the worst thing around. But I do believe that even pot has eventual debilitating affects on a person. They may not be apparent for many years, especially in a casual user, but I think they're they're. And besides that, every pot smoker I know is really, really fucking annoying when they're high.
This has probably already been posted, but here goes. I think drugs are stupid, and don't use them because I've never once felt the need. There are other, more religious, reasons for my dislike of them, but whatever.
I think pop-music is stupid and I've never once felt the need to buy it. Yet I don't feel the need to ban it either. Odd, that. Also pretty much every organized religion is a terrible framework from which to build legislation, particularly in countries that don't have an official, national religion. What you did with this demi-paragraph is establish that you are prejudiced against the subject of discussion, which doesn't constitute a valid argument and won't really help you any.
The debate I have going with myself is this, though: should drugs, or at least common, less harmful ones like pot, be legalized? I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I think legalization would be great just for crime, and getting people out in the open means that it would be easier to help them kick their habits. On the other hand, maybe any support of drugs is a bad thing in the long run, since in that same long run I believe they are an inevitable and maybe inexorable ruin for people who use them and those around them. I flip-flop back and forth once and a while, but usually I'm for legalization. It's probably the lesser of two evils at least.
What about people whose recreational drug-use is not habitual? Or do you deny the existence and/or possibility of such an animal?
Also, if you're going to do drugs then please keep that shit to yourself. I barely even go to concerts any more because some asshole lights up a joint without fail and the smell of that stuff makes me queasy. And don't ask me to try shit. It's a good thing my Peer Pressure immunity is at 95%, because every time some donk has a few drugs they want me to get in on it. Do what you want, sure, but the line is drawn where it affects other people.
The smell of most perfumes makes me want to throw up (and I've heard the same about Axe and those other body-sprays from a number of people), yet I don't get to yell at people for wearing perfume because it's not a health-hazard. Other people smoking a bowl/joint at a party/concert are not affecting you anymore than perfume at a party/concert affects me. Yes, it's illegal, much like jaywalking and failing to feed the meter. That doesn't mean you should go around flipping out at people every time they park illegally to run in and grab a coffee. Also, my peer-pressure immunity is 100%, and yet I smoke. Huh. Maybe after a great deal of research I decided on my own to give it a try and decided on my own that I like it. Basically your entire argument is based solely upon personal prejudices, rather than on any factual information or logic.
The debate I have going with myself is this, though: should drugs, or at least common, less harmful ones like pot, be legalized? I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I think legalization would be great just for crime, and getting people out in the open means that it would be easier to help them kick their habits. On the other hand, maybe any support of drugs is a bad thing in the long run, since in that same long run I believe they are an inevitable and maybe inexorable ruin for people who use them and those around them. I flip-flop back and forth once and a while, but usually I'm for legalization. It's probably the lesser of two evils at least.
What about people whose recreational drug-use is not habitual? Or do you deny the existence and/or possibility of such an animal?
Also, if you're going to do drugs then please keep that shit to yourself. I barely even go to concerts any more because some asshole lights up a joint without fail and the smell of that stuff makes me queasy. And don't ask me to try shit. It's a good thing my Peer Pressure immunity is at 95%, because every time some donk has a few drugs they want me to get in on it. Do what you want, sure, but the line is drawn where it affects other people.
Does your religion call you to proselytize? 'Cause I can't walk down the street without some bible thumper or Jehova's Witness telling me I'm going to burn for all eternity. ;-) If there's no smoking cigarettes in the arena or at the venue, then there should obviously be no lighting up of anything. I'm not sure if there is a contact high in an open air environment, but people should have the common courtesy to respect the fact that other people don't want any smoke of any kind in their lungs.. But jerks are jerks I guess.
And besides that, every pot smoker I know is really, really fucking annoying when they're high.
Back atcha.
I pray that you meet some normal, non-teenagers who do drugs. Once the cult of adolescent pot-smoking is left behind, people are just relaxing and enjoying themselves. It's the difference between a college bar and a nice pub -- ever notice that straight edgers are all in college? It's because that stance becomes ridiculous when you enter the adult world. It's good to drink, it's bad to make an ass of yourself or ruin your life.
RedShell on
Homing In Imperfectly?
Pokemans D/P: 1289 4685 0522
Drug use does not imply maturity any more than it implies immaturity. Many people use less and less as they get older, simply because there's just no motivation once there "cool factor" of breaking the law is no longer interesting or valid.
For many people, drug use can also become a serious crutch. The need on the part of males to be inebriated before getting on the dance floor, for instance, leads to the club I go to taking a long time to get interesting. As someone who has no such crutch to slow down actual development of confidence, I can get on the dance floor as soon as I walk in the door.
Using, within reason, is fine and dandy, but it doesn't mean anything other than "I like to use substances to alter my state."
Most medical pot is grown is by university science depts and it apparently pretty high grade since the people know what they're doing.
In my experience, in California, "medical" pot is grown by exactly the same people who grow pot for the black market. On occasion, it's grown by the dispensaries themselves in a warehouse a couple of miles from the storefront.
That's not to say that the dispensaries themselves don't have organized crime ties. Sometimes they do.
By refusing to buy unless they know/can verify who and where it came from and went through. Will people actually do it? No. It's damn near impossible unless you live in a third world country or commune.
That depends entirely on where you live.
I'd say it depends more on who you know. If you don't know the right people, finding it is going to be hard enough, let alone finding a morally clean channel. I said third world countries because people in *most* such places tend not to bother importing/smuggling since the police can be bought off like eBay items. ergo, it's mostly locally grown.
I'm just saying that because around here (SF Bay) people who grow pot themselves are so ubiquitous that it's incredibly easy to buy pot straight from a guy who grows it or one degree of separation away. I imagine it's probably pretty much the same way all along the Pacific coast, because I've seen no indication from my friends who live in Portland or Seattle that pot is any easier to get up there than it is here.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Posts
Unless they tightly restrict the production of the shit, I don't think pot enthusiasts (especially those living in hotbeds of good bud like BC or Montreal) need to fear legalization.
Well, I personally dont care if tobacco companies got into the market if the entire thing was freely legalized. Weed is so easy to grow that tobacco companies wouldn't be able to reap the profits, nor would they have any particular advantage since anyone and everyone could freely compete with them. Tobacco is very very difficult to grow, which is why it is so profitable. Weed on the other hand would not be, and so even if tobacco companies started selling it, I would just buy stuff that wasn't from them, of which there would be plenty.
It'd be nice to have an herb garden if it was legal. MJ leaves drawn with butter are really quite tasty.
or you could even buy good beer. Or a micro-brew. Or some stuff your friend brewed.
it is neat when the market actually does a decent job with things.
Did you miss the last sentence of my post?
@ Tycho: Cannabis grows in almost any climate, but growing a plant and keeping it alive is much different from growing a plant and keeping it continually producing high quality cannabis buds. High quality bud is actually very hard to grow. Strains that have been bred to yield high quality are very picky. It would be easier provided it were legalized, but do not fool yourself. It isn't that easy.
And VC, your whole thing with Natty and Guinness is a war that's been raging between stoners since they figured out there's good bud and shitty bud. Some people refuse to smoke shwag. Some people refuse to pay $60/eighth. Considering low and middle class makes up the majority of the population as a whole I'd be willing to wager those same low and middle class people make up the majority of the population that smokes cannabis. They're going to buy what is both convenient and affordable. Enter the tobacco companies.
This also brings into question just what the legislation would look like if this happened. I think legalizing would be a lot more difficult than people imagine, rather than just decriminalizing it. I don't want to buy cannabis from tobacco companies, or from some small shop down the fucking street. I don't want some asshole trying to sell me purple kush haze or g-13 or any other dumbass name they tacked on to jack the price up. I want to grow my own in my back yard.
I'd rather there be no middle-men, instead no one should be allowed to sell any bud period. If you wish to partake you can grow your own. Decriminalize possession but not distribution. Also guys I'm really sorry I'm taking this sort of to heart because this issue is somewhat important to me. Not because I like smoking pot, but because our current legislation is complete and utter horseshit. Of course for America in the 21st century that's goddamned par for the course.
Shogun Streams Vidya
The tobacco companies from whom I just bought a pack of (delicious) additive-free cigarettes? And who don't seem to be stopping anyone else from selling additive-free, hand-blended tobacco by the tin at vastly lower prices than manufactured/pre-packaged cigarettes? I don't buy the whole "if weed were legalized, good weed would disappear!" argument because it relies on the assumption that tobacco being legal has led to there being no good tobacco available. It's available, it's just not what most people smoke because most people have no taste. I can't figure out how this is supposed to convince me that weed shouldn't be legalized.
Good cannabis would not disappear. Like I said in a previous post tobacco companies will sell expensive packs of joints, cheap packs of joints, and whatever else they can come up with. And yeah you can go buy your own tobacco and roll your own ciggs, but the vast majority don't do that. We're catering to middle America VC, not you. They go buy a carton of USA Gold's or Marlboro's at a gas station or maybe a discount tobacco store.
Legalization is not the answer. It never will be. I'm sorry, but I'd rather fight for something feasible. No where in the world is cannabis 'legal.' Its only decriminalized in certain places to various extents. Legalization would solve one problem and create several more problems. I don't care about taxes and all that shit. I care about letting people be free to do what they want, and I care about stopping the prosecution of frivolous crimes. Stopping a college student being barred from any financial aid because he was nicked with a roach.
edit: I would give my left nut if I could find this goddamn report I read a couple years ago. It was on Erowid and now I can't find it for shit. Its similar to that book The Emperor Wears No Clothes but that's not it.
Shogun Streams Vidya
So wait, is your argument that we can't legalize weed because they sell Marlboros at gas stations or that we shouldn't want to legalize weed because you say it's impossible?
Nothing is impossible. However I have no inclination to continue the thread if you wish to continue acting this way. Since you clearly haven't done any real research and you'd rather nitpick at me with quibbles instead of actually listening I frankly don't want to waste my time. I will not change your mind. The last several pages have been a lot of fun chaps, but this is where I'd like to get off. This isn't worth getting stressed and worked up over.
Shogun Streams Vidya
I'm listening but you're not saying anything coherent. You refuse to get to the part where something terrible happens. I also don't have to do your research for you and if you're not willing to even explain your point then even if I did have any obligation to prove your argument right for you I still wouldn't be able to. Because you haven't really given an argument. And pointing out ginormous holes in your argument != nitpicking with quibbles. What are you, a politician?
I mean, who gives a shit what it does to the quality of weed
I want people out of prison for selling weed because that's fucking stupid.
I host a podcast about movies.
That's really how simple the issue is, but people are turning it into a crusade to somehow save the soul of weed.
Its easy enough that thousands of people do it by themselves in their homes and make thousands of dollars from selling it. So, yeah, it really is that easy. I know people who've grown weed, and it was piece of cake. My friend did it when he was 15, zero gardening knowledge or experience, zero supplies except shitty seeds and a shovel, and only looked at the plants once every few days once they were out in the forest growing. It wasn't a stunning success, but it definitely produced bud, and that was from the incompetent efforts of a 15 year old. Tons of people grew in the area I grew up in, and no it is not hard in the least.
Growing hydroponically for the high quality stuff isn't difficult either, all the instructions possible are available easily online, its just a question of getting the system up and running in the first place. A few trial runs and you'll be set.
The amazing weed that is available today, weed that has been selectively bred for various attributes for decades does not require some massive corporation to grow it. It is now and has always been mostly grown by people who do it on their own or in small groups, people who usually have no prior experience in growing anything. This would not change if weed were legalized, the only thing that would change is that big companies would just produce a bunch of their own strains to sell.
Year 20XX:
US Congress: "Hey, we're ready to legalize marijuana now."
Conservatives: "We don't want just anybody growing dope. We need to make sure it doesn't fund terrorism!"
Pharma lobby: "Yeah! It's a powerful drug, manufacture needs to be limited!"
Tobacco lobby: "Yeah! You should only allow licensed growers to grow marijuana!"
US Congress: "Um, I don't think that's in the spirit of free enter--"
Pharma & tobacco lobbies: "Here, have some $$$$."
US Congress: "Okay, you're right! Now who wants a license?"
Pharma lobby: "Me!"
Tobacco lobby: "Me!"
Small-time grower: "Me!"
US Congress: "Okay, so who has $100,000 for a licensing fee?"
Pharma lobby: "Me!"
Tobacco lobby: "Me!"
Small-time grower: "Oh shits."
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Cops in 20xx: "Oh, you grew some with no license? PAY A FINE YOU SCAMP"
cops now:"ON YOUR MOTHERFUCKING KNEES YOU MOTHERFUCKING PUSHER YOU THINK YOU CAN PEDAL THIS SHIT HERE GET READY FOR A VISIT FROM THE HEALTH INSPECTOR YOU LITTLE SUBURBAN FUCK"
still better for users, sellers, and homegrowers.
I host a podcast about movies.
Well they are saying that they would rather people be allowed to grow it themselves than to have to deal with either big corporations or the shady middlemen
If legalized, wouldn't it be perfectly legal to cultivate it yourself, just like you can grow your own tobacco (meh good luck with that though) and brew your own booze? I suspect it'd even become easier for the average person to grow.
The vast majority of weed right now comes from the huge multi-million dollar criminal organizations anyway. Legalization would put it in the hands of the Tobacco companies, sure, but I agree with Tycho; homegrown weed would be what it always has been: a steady source that's in the minority.
Yeah, that kind of brings up another issue. Is smoking weed unethical for this reason? Have we talked about that? How does one make sure one is socially conscious about where they get their bud?
By refusing to buy unless they know/can verify who and where it came from and went through. Will people actually do it? No. It's damn near impossible unless you live in a third world country or commune. But I'm sure they/we would all argue that the breach of ethics came from criminalizing it on the basis of smear campaign misinformation to begin with. Would we buy coffee from the dredges of society if it were banned for no good reason, or validate such a ban by just refraining?
...
That depends entirely on where you live.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I'd say it depends more on who you know. If you don't know the right people, finding it is going to be hard enough, let alone finding a morally clean channel. I said third world countries because people in *most* such places tend not to bother importing/smuggling since the police can be bought off like eBay items. ergo, it's mostly locally grown.
Not in Canada. They were growing super-low grade shit in the bottom of an abandoned mine in Flinflon. Street quality was immensely better.
The debate I have going with myself is this, though: should drugs, or at least common, less harmful ones like pot, be legalized? I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I think legalization would be great just for crime, and getting people out in the open means that it would be easier to help them kick their habits. On the other hand, maybe any support of drugs is a bad thing in the long run, since in that same long run I believe they are an inevitable and maybe inexorable ruin for people who use them and those around them. I flip-flop back and forth once and a while, but usually I'm for legalization. It's probably the lesser of two evils at least.
Also, if you're going to do drugs then please keep that shit to yourself. I barely even go to concerts any more because some asshole lights up a joint without fail and the smell of that stuff makes me queasy. And don't ask me to try shit. It's a good thing my Peer Pressure immunity is at 95%, because every time some donk has a few drugs they want me to get in on it. Do what you want, sure, but the line is drawn where it affects other people.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
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The "soft" drugs are in the vast majority used solely for recreational purposes, and most people that use them are not in any danger of having to change how their life functions by using it. There are plenty of cases that it does affect their life, but this is no different from the random WoW addict who goes bankrupt from spending all his money on gold.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
I think pop-music is stupid and I've never once felt the need to buy it. Yet I don't feel the need to ban it either. Odd, that. Also pretty much every organized religion is a terrible framework from which to build legislation, particularly in countries that don't have an official, national religion. What you did with this demi-paragraph is establish that you are prejudiced against the subject of discussion, which doesn't constitute a valid argument and won't really help you any.
What about people whose recreational drug-use is not habitual? Or do you deny the existence and/or possibility of such an animal?
The smell of most perfumes makes me want to throw up (and I've heard the same about Axe and those other body-sprays from a number of people), yet I don't get to yell at people for wearing perfume because it's not a health-hazard. Other people smoking a bowl/joint at a party/concert are not affecting you anymore than perfume at a party/concert affects me. Yes, it's illegal, much like jaywalking and failing to feed the meter. That doesn't mean you should go around flipping out at people every time they park illegally to run in and grab a coffee. Also, my peer-pressure immunity is 100%, and yet I smoke. Huh. Maybe after a great deal of research I decided on my own to give it a try and decided on my own that I like it. Basically your entire argument is based solely upon personal prejudices, rather than on any factual information or logic.
Does your religion call you to proselytize? 'Cause I can't walk down the street without some bible thumper or Jehova's Witness telling me I'm going to burn for all eternity. ;-) If there's no smoking cigarettes in the arena or at the venue, then there should obviously be no lighting up of anything. I'm not sure if there is a contact high in an open air environment, but people should have the common courtesy to respect the fact that other people don't want any smoke of any kind in their lungs.. But jerks are jerks I guess.
Back atcha.
I pray that you meet some normal, non-teenagers who do drugs. Once the cult of adolescent pot-smoking is left behind, people are just relaxing and enjoying themselves. It's the difference between a college bar and a nice pub -- ever notice that straight edgers are all in college? It's because that stance becomes ridiculous when you enter the adult world. It's good to drink, it's bad to make an ass of yourself or ruin your life.
Pokemans D/P: 1289 4685 0522
Drug use does not imply maturity any more than it implies immaturity. Many people use less and less as they get older, simply because there's just no motivation once there "cool factor" of breaking the law is no longer interesting or valid.
For many people, drug use can also become a serious crutch. The need on the part of males to be inebriated before getting on the dance floor, for instance, leads to the club I go to taking a long time to get interesting. As someone who has no such crutch to slow down actual development of confidence, I can get on the dance floor as soon as I walk in the door.
Using, within reason, is fine and dandy, but it doesn't mean anything other than "I like to use substances to alter my state."
In my experience, in California, "medical" pot is grown by exactly the same people who grow pot for the black market. On occasion, it's grown by the dispensaries themselves in a warehouse a couple of miles from the storefront.
That's not to say that the dispensaries themselves don't have organized crime ties. Sometimes they do.
I'm just saying that because around here (SF Bay) people who grow pot themselves are so ubiquitous that it's incredibly easy to buy pot straight from a guy who grows it or one degree of separation away. I imagine it's probably pretty much the same way all along the Pacific coast, because I've seen no indication from my friends who live in Portland or Seattle that pot is any easier to get up there than it is here.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.