Though, she didn't use the term I don't think actually, so maybe this was the first book that used that exact phrasing. Oh, I know- Think it was He Who Walks Behind who did first. Yet I can't find it damnit..sigh.
In my opinion, that the Blackstaff was sucking something nasty out of McCoy after he killed a hundred human beings and that the Blackstaff even exists and has the effects it does (to protect the mind of its user against the negative side effects of black magic) indicates that in the Dresden Files, black magic is indeed a thing that has very real effects. I can see three ways that Butcher might be approaching it.
A) Black magic is only black magic when it is very specifically used as black magic. That is to say, deliberately killing someone with magic directly is black magic (so, Vader force-chokes are bad), but using magic to deliberately trigger physics based deaths is OK (so, satellite bombing is acceptable). Note that the latter probably also implies that doing things like lighting a building on fire with magic and then letting the flames spread naturally to kill everyone inside isn't black magic (it's homicide and arson, but not black magic), pulling a wall down to crush someone or the ground under their feet on a cliff edge isn't black magic (again, homicide, not black magic), etc.
The Star Wars option: using magic with the intent to kill is black magic, but using magic to assist you in killing someone is not. A wizard might use magic to make herself invisible, sneak up behind someone, and then stab them in the back. A wizard might make herself move faster than a normal human being and give herself precognition that makes her nearly unbeatable in a fight, but since it's her hands and weapons doing the damage and not magic itself, she's not getting black magic backlash.
C) The sliding scales option: Any time someone is killed by another person, there's magical black magic backlash. The amount of backlash varies according to various variables. So, a wizard killing a man with a gun might still get a few black magic points per the universe, even without using magic. A wizard making herself invisible to stab someone in the back gets a few more. A wizard doing force-lightning to kill someone to death gets a ton of them.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
It's a consequence of the "magic has to be something you believe in" criteria. Investing your will in the death of another has metaphysical effects. So it's the intent to kill (or harm) that is corrupting.
Except then there's the "except when used against non mortals" clause, otherwise every Wizard we've seen would be all Black Magicing it up. Not to mention the intent seems kind of irrelevant. The one sure piece of black magic we know of so far, mind bending, was used with the intent to help and is still black.
Don't forget that Murphy was mind raped by the ghost of a demon they called Nightmare back in Grave Peril and not Butters. It even used Harry's image and magic to do it, so there is another reason she is a bit off.
This isn't the first book where Harry is referred to as "starborn" is it?
No. It came up before.
Know where by chance?
As I said, I couldn't find it again. The concept comes up in White Knight in the big finale, but not the term "Starborn". I can't find where the Walker mentions it (if he does, fuzzy).
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NogsCrap, crap, mega crap.Crap, crap, mega crap.Registered Userregular
This isn't the first book where Harry is referred to as "starborn" is it?
No. It came up before.
Know where by chance?
As I said, I couldn't find it again. The concept comes up in White Knight in the big finale, but not the term "Starborn". I can't find where the Walker mentions it (if he does, fuzzy).
A demon he summons up. Rails on about him and his mother.
Lasciel/Lash. Most notably in her final scenes
Any walker ever
For some reason I want to say Mavra, but I think that's just because the Black Court is related to the outsiders somehow.
EDIT: Demons name is chauncy or something similar?
This isn't the first book where Harry is referred to as "starborn" is it?
No. It came up before.
Know where by chance?
As I said, I couldn't find it again. The concept comes up in White Knight in the big finale, but not the term "Starborn". I can't find where the Walker mentions it (if he does, fuzzy).
A demon he summons up. Rails on about him and his mother.
Lasciel/Lash. Most notably in her final scenes
Any walker ever
For some reason I want to say Mavra, but I think that's just because the Black Court is related to the outsiders somehow.
EDIT: Demons name is chauncy or something similar?
Nah, Chauncy didn't mention anything about Harry being Starborn or whatever. Just hinted that Harry's parents hadn't died under the circumstances that Harry believes. At least, so far as his appearance in Storm Front.
The Walker didn't call him anything in Ghost Story, but it's still revealed that he has a magical destiny connected to the Outsiders, since him not getting ripped to shreds had to be justified.
Except then there's the "except when used against non mortals" clause, otherwise every Wizard we've seen would be all Black Magicing it up. Not to mention the intent seems kind of irrelevant. The one sure piece of black magic we know of so far, mind bending, was used with the intent to help and is still black.
Maybe it all comes back to human's free will being a big thing.
Wacky theories time!
By using black magic on a human you're interfering/taking away their free will.
Doing this with magic is bad and has a side effect (maybe as a balancing act) of corrupting the caster, making him lose some of his free will.
Now the caster, being corrupted and with less free will, will be more inclined to reuse black magic.
Repeat.
It could explain why using it against non-humans isn't a problem (no free will to interfere with) and why other beings don't have this problem (no free will to lose).
Changes Spoiler
The Blackstaff could work either by replacing Ebenezer as the caster of the black magic so he isn't corrupted or it becomes the the target of the corruption in his place.
If free will defines human beings, then by losing it you become less human. When changelings choose to be fae they are giving up what humanity they have and their free will.
Big Cold Day Spoilers
This could explain why Molly was able to become the Winter Lady.
To take up the mantle it isn't that you must be fae but you can't be a full fledged human. So changelings like Lily and Sarissa are suitable targets as lady.
Molly may have became corrupted enough by using mind magic that she isn't considered fully human anymore and became eligible for ladyship.
Losing or taking free will shouldn't make you less human. Willingly giving it up should. Slight difference. But it's a theory.
Nice theory re: Cold Days (Cold Days spoilers, surprise):
But that seems a little thin since free will IS such a big thing. Little black magic=kiss it goodbye. It still may be the case in conjunction with whatever else Lea did to prepare Molly, but then it doesn't seem to really take anything to be prepared either other than a loose connection to the Courts. As far as we know Molly hasn't done any black magic for years and it was an accident then. I sure hope that doesn't bite her in the ass once more.
Losing or taking free will shouldn't make you less human. Willingly giving it up should. Slight difference. But it's a theory.
Nice theory re: Cold Days (Cold Days spoilers, surprise):
But that seems a little thin since free will IS such a big thing. Little black magic=kiss is goodbye. It still may be the case in conjunction with whatever else Lea did to prepare Molly, but then it doesn't seem to really take anything to be prepared either other than a loose connection to the Courts. As far as we know Molly hasn't done any black magic for years and it was an accident then. I sure hope that doesn't bite her in the ass once more.
Cold Days Spoilers
Well she used mind magic in read/write mode on two of her friends in Proven Guilty and once in read-only mode on Lucio in Turn Coat.
The worst one, especially for her mind, was the rewriting of Harry's memories in Changes and that was 6/9 months ago.
Plus she's able to understand Mouse so she must have been mind reading him somehow. But I guess he probably doesn't count as mortal.
I've been wondering if her improved ability/curse to sense emotions isn't some kind of lesser but constant form of mind reading. I imagine it would be useful for surviving Leas training.
Re: "starchild". While he's not necessarily called anything in particular, a big deal is made over when he was born, and about being able to fight/control/do shit to Outsiders, at least above and beyond what the average person is capable of. I believe it comes up when he meets Thomas and they delve into his mother's history? I haven't done a full re-read in a while so it's a bit fuzzy.
Off the cuff, I believe whenever the topic comes around a point is made that he is capable of this influence, but the impression/insinuation has been generally that this makes him unique, possibly one of a kind (without necessarily saying as much).
The recent inference that there might be other such folks out there ("A" as opposed to "THE") could be important.
Or it could just be an unintentional thing we'll dwell over for the next 5 years.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Re: "starchild". While he's not necessarily called anything in particular, a big deal is made over when he was born, and about being able to fight/control/do shit to Outsiders, at least above and beyond what the average person is capable of. I believe it comes up when he meets Thomas and they delve into his mother's history? I haven't done a full re-read in a while so it's a bit fuzzy.
Off the cuff, I believe whenever the topic comes around a point is made that he is capable of this influence, but the impression/insinuation has been generally that this makes him unique, possibly one of a kind (without necessarily saying as much).
The recent inference that there might be other such folks out there ("A" as opposed to "THE") could be important.
Or it could just be an unintentional thing we'll dwell over for the next 5 years.
My theory is Dresden used to be the Starborn, but when his daughter was born it's plural now so they're a Starborn.
Losing or taking free will shouldn't make you less human. Willingly giving it up should. Slight difference. But it's a theory.
Nice theory re: Cold Days (Cold Days spoilers, surprise):
But that seems a little thin since free will IS such a big thing. Little black magic=kiss is goodbye. It still may be the case in conjunction with whatever else Lea did to prepare Molly, but then it doesn't seem to really take anything to be prepared either other than a loose connection to the Courts. As far as we know Molly hasn't done any black magic for years and it was an accident then. I sure hope that doesn't bite her in the ass once more.
Cold Days Spoilers
Well she used mind magic in read/write mode on two of her friends in Proven Guilty and once in read-only mode on Lucio in Turn Coat.
The worst one, especially for her mind, was the rewriting of Harry's memories in Changes and that was 6/9 months ago.
Plus she's able to understand Mouse so she must have been mind reading him somehow. But I guess he probably doesn't count as mortal.
I've been wondering if her improved ability/curse to sense emotions isn't some kind of lesser but constant form of mind reading. I imagine it would be useful for surviving Leas training.
I'd just have to declare the entire concept of black magic horeshit if it worked that way (everything after the first instance). Which it may, guess we'll find out. Maybe.
I wonder if we'll come across any more benevolent entities.
The vast majority of what we've seen have been outright hostile, (Outsiders, Black court) predatory/parasitic (red/white courts), or a best neutral but not terribly caring about humans (The Fae).
On the other side we've got the White God and his servants who do little very direct intervention, Odin, who seems to like people OK
Re: "starchild". While he's not necessarily called anything in particular, a big deal is made over when he was born, and about being able to fight/control/do shit to Outsiders, at least above and beyond what the average person is capable of. I believe it comes up when he meets Thomas and they delve into his mother's history? I haven't done a full re-read in a while so it's a bit fuzzy.
Off the cuff, I believe whenever the topic comes around a point is made that he is capable of this influence, but the impression/insinuation has been generally that this makes him unique, possibly one of a kind (without necessarily saying as much).
The recent inference that there might be other such folks out there ("A" as opposed to "THE") could be important.
Or it could just be an unintentional thing we'll dwell over for the next 5 years.
My theory is Dresden used to be the Starborn, but when his daughter was born it's plural now so they're a Starborn.
True, and with the nature of the Nevernever
they just need her to end up in there for an extended period of time (say a year, have her end up in there for protection or something at the end of one book, come out at some point during the next or the one after) and BAM, fancy time weirdness later she goes from a child to a teenager/young adult, trained and ready to kick ass.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
0
cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
Phew, just re-read Dead Beat. Cold Days had left a bad taste in my mouth, so I wanted to re-read my favorite Dresden book. Goddamn its so good. And wow, a lot of clues to some of the revelations in Cold Days in there too. I had kind of forgotten some of the build up to these "end game" scenarios that I feel are currently present.
Dead Beat. So goddamn good. I *heart* you butters.
Some thoughts
Ebenezer was not a Senior member of the White Council like the Merlin, Gatekeeper, or Ancient Mai because he was the Blackstaff. That came later. Harry probably wont gain a seat on the Senior Council just because he is now The Warden.
Black Magic
In Grave Peril Harry tells Michael that he fears a magical backlash for killing mortals at Bianca's, while Michael points out that Harry's crushing guilt for such an act could be his backlash. This may or may not actually be a consequence of using black magic, could just be Harry's interpretation or that it may affect people differently. Guilt and intent could also be a form of protection against black magic like using words to cast spells insulate the mind.
Curious if Harry will be able to eventually tap that hidden wellspring of power he has like he did when he ignited Bianca's courtyard? What exactly is this power since it allowed him to cast a spell that he doesn't totally remember saying with such immense power when he was nearly tapped out to the point of struggling to create a circle? Could this be a part of being a/the starborn?
Wonder just how planned out Molly being prepared for being a host was? In Grave Peril, Lea tries to bargain with Michael for Molly...
Has there ever been mention of the Summer Court equivalent to Lea? Since Leanansidhe is her title not her name.
What the hell happened to Cristos is one of the things that I'm most interested in finding out. He's been a bad guy for three years now and on the senior council.
What the hell happened to Cristos is one of the things that I'm most interested in finding out. He's been a bad guy for three years now and on the senior council.
Well in that time, we've had three books.
Due to events and circumstances in those books we (and I can't believe I'm saying this) have had bigger fish to fry than dark wizards on the Council.
Posts
No. It came up before.
Bad guys keep bringing it up. Good guys either don't know or don't care.
A) Black magic is only black magic when it is very specifically used as black magic. That is to say, deliberately killing someone with magic directly is black magic (so, Vader force-chokes are bad), but using magic to deliberately trigger physics based deaths is OK (so, satellite bombing is acceptable). Note that the latter probably also implies that doing things like lighting a building on fire with magic and then letting the flames spread naturally to kill everyone inside isn't black magic (it's homicide and arson, but not black magic), pulling a wall down to crush someone or the ground under their feet on a cliff edge isn't black magic (again, homicide, not black magic), etc.
C) The sliding scales option: Any time someone is killed by another person, there's magical black magic backlash. The amount of backlash varies according to various variables. So, a wizard killing a man with a gun might still get a few black magic points per the universe, even without using magic. A wizard making herself invisible to stab someone in the back gets a few more. A wizard doing force-lightning to kill someone to death gets a ton of them.
Know where by chance?
As I said, I couldn't find it again. The concept comes up in White Knight in the big finale, but not the term "Starborn". I can't find where the Walker mentions it (if he does, fuzzy).
PARKER, YOU'RE FIRED! <-- My comic book podcast! Satan look here!
A demon he summons up. Rails on about him and his mother.
Lasciel/Lash. Most notably in her final scenes
Any walker ever
For some reason I want to say Mavra, but I think that's just because the Black Court is related to the outsiders somehow.
EDIT: Demons name is chauncy or something similar?
Nah, Chauncy didn't mention anything about Harry being Starborn or whatever. Just hinted that Harry's parents hadn't died under the circumstances that Harry believes. At least, so far as his appearance in Storm Front.
Doesn't "starchild" get used a bit earlier? Harry's special bonus vs outsiders gets mentioned earlier than that, I think.
That's my theory at least. Harry is going to cause of the Apocalypse in some way because he is a starchild. What ever that means.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
Shucks. Thanks though, I just lost a bet to my girlfriend
The lack of Ghostbusters references.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
Maybe it all comes back to human's free will being a big thing.
Wacky theories time!
By using black magic on a human you're interfering/taking away their free will.
Doing this with magic is bad and has a side effect (maybe as a balancing act) of corrupting the caster, making him lose some of his free will.
Now the caster, being corrupted and with less free will, will be more inclined to reuse black magic.
Repeat.
It could explain why using it against non-humans isn't a problem (no free will to interfere with) and why other beings don't have this problem (no free will to lose).
Changes Spoiler
If free will defines human beings, then by losing it you become less human. When changelings choose to be fae they are giving up what humanity they have and their free will.
Big Cold Day Spoilers
To take up the mantle it isn't that you must be fae but you can't be a full fledged human. So changelings like Lily and Sarissa are suitable targets as lady.
Molly may have became corrupted enough by using mind magic that she isn't considered fully human anymore and became eligible for ladyship.
End Of Ramblings :P
Seriously! A Titanic reference but no Ghostbusters?
We have a giant containment unit of evil monsters. That's in risk of blowing up and letting everything out.
Nice theory re: Cold Days (Cold Days spoilers, surprise):
Cold Days Spoilers
The worst one, especially for her mind, was the rewriting of Harry's memories in Changes and that was 6/9 months ago.
Plus she's able to understand Mouse so she must have been mind reading him somehow. But I guess he probably doesn't count as mortal.
I've been wondering if her improved ability/curse to sense emotions isn't some kind of lesser but constant form of mind reading. I imagine it would be useful for surviving Leas training.
Off the cuff, I believe whenever the topic comes around a point is made that he is capable of this influence, but the impression/insinuation has been generally that this makes him unique, possibly one of a kind (without necessarily saying as much).
I'd just have to declare the entire concept of black magic horeshit if it worked that way (everything after the first instance). Which it may, guess we'll find out. Maybe.
The vast majority of what we've seen have been outright hostile, (Outsiders, Black court) predatory/parasitic (red/white courts), or a best neutral but not terribly caring about humans (The Fae).
On the other side we've got the White God and his servants who do little very direct intervention, Odin, who seems to like people OK
Harry mentions a binder of more or less neutral things (cabbage patch spirit).
I'd say the White God is as good as it's going to get. And since he seems to outrank everything else combined it's probably about even.
:P
Proof: The opposite of White is Dark. God backwards is Dog. Therefore, White God is code for Dark Dog.
True, and with the nature of the Nevernever
Dead Beat. So goddamn good. I *heart* you butters.
Also, I'm curious, does anyone know if Gabe and Tycho read the books? It feels like something they would be into.
Ebenezer was not a Senior member of the White Council like the Merlin, Gatekeeper, or Ancient Mai because he was the Blackstaff. That came later. Harry probably wont gain a seat on the Senior Council just because he is now The Warden.
Black Magic
In Grave Peril Harry tells Michael that he fears a magical backlash for killing mortals at Bianca's, while Michael points out that Harry's crushing guilt for such an act could be his backlash. This may or may not actually be a consequence of using black magic, could just be Harry's interpretation or that it may affect people differently. Guilt and intent could also be a form of protection against black magic like using words to cast spells insulate the mind.
Curious if Harry will be able to eventually tap that hidden wellspring of power he has like he did when he ignited Bianca's courtyard? What exactly is this power since it allowed him to cast a spell that he doesn't totally remember saying with such immense power when he was nearly tapped out to the point of struggling to create a circle? Could this be a part of being a/the starborn?
Wonder just how planned out Molly being prepared for being a host was? In Grave Peril, Lea tries to bargain with Michael for Molly...
Has there ever been mention of the Summer Court equivalent to Lea? Since Leanansidhe is her title not her name.
Well in that time, we've had three books.
Due to events and circumstances in those books we (and I can't believe I'm saying this) have had bigger fish to fry than dark wizards on the Council.