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Diablo III: Patch 1.07 preview up!

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Posts

  • ColumnColumn Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    A game in which persons can quickly acquire their own best in slot items without ever having to trade with anyone is not sustainable over the long term.

    Capcom needed this information many moons and many revisions of Monster Hunter ago.

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2013
    Column wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    A game in which persons can quickly acquire their own best in slot items without ever having to trade with anyone is not sustainable over the long term.

    Capcom needed this information many moons and many revisions of Monster Hunter ago.

    Diablo 3 is not Monter Hunter.

    _J_ on
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    patch complaints aside I can get my meteors to crit for about 1.8m. not a super useful build though

  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Yeah, juking the stats by adding higher numbers for BIS gear will never be a winner in this type of game, you'll get a few weeks of player progression and then things will peter out and stagnate.

    I'd much rather they make PVE more varied by making the kinds of monsters and environmental challenges you face have more diversity, so there's an incentive to invest in a variety of gears and skills that let you handle different situations.

    Mind you, this seems to contradict Blizzard's design philosophy, which seems to discourage both skill and gear swapping, and makes a lot of the game boil down to DPS numbers.

    Brolo on
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Just logged in to refresh my D2 characters on bnet.

    I wish there was a way to incorporate those old D2 characters into my current D3 profile.

  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    First off, there's no difference between farming for the AH and farming for crafting. It all comes from elite kills. This is an additional activity on top of buying/selling on the AH, it won't replace it for anyone.

    In terms of the mechanics of clicking on things you are correct. In terms of the motivation / profitability of farming you are not correct. If these items significantly impact item markets, then players will be on the lookout for less items to sell on the AH. Right now, profit-oriented persons pick up gloves, bracers, jewelry, and 1H rares to AH. If these new items replace those items, then it will change the farming mentality.

    Another difference is the overall profitability of farming. If even less items sell on the AH, then even less items will be profitable, which means decreased sales and decreased gold for farmers.

    This is bad.

    How could it possibly result in decreased gold for farmers? The amount of gold in the economy remains the same. Let's say theoretically you play for a million hours and acquire that mythical Best in Slot crafted item for each of those slots. You still have all the other slots to upgrade and a boatload of gold to spend. You're going to go to the AH and spend all of it on gear for other slots. The distribution of value may change, but the amount of gold changing hands will not(assuming the crafting is cheap, since otherwise no one will use it).
    Zek wrote: »
    And yes, it will devalue the items in those slots to some extent(though probably not much for top-tier loot). That can't be helped, it's a natural consequence of helping people to find their own loot. The goal here is very specifically to de-emphasize the auction house in Diablo 3, and most people who aren't you would love to see that happen.

    Those people are wrong, and have problematic short-sighted desires. Diablo is about farming gear, not farming crafting materials.

    If best in slot gear is crafted and account-bound, then the game turns into farming crafting materials.

    That is bad.

    Making the crafted materials account-bound is also bad, by the way. Hellfire Ring would have been far less of a travesty of its crafting mats could be sold on the AH.


    Edit: For clarity's sake, it may be best to replace "Auction House" with "trade with other players / give to other players". It seems that allowing users to exchange items is a good thing. The problem is that some people seem to dislike trading by means of the Auction House.
    They're not wrong, they find different things fun than you. They have more fun if they find the gear than if they purchase it. I know you've never been able to compute that, but just take my word for it. Up until this point D3 has been pretty abysmal at providing means of gear acquisition that can compare to the auction house. What you're refusing to admit is that finding true best in slot gear through this crafting is going to be impossibly difficult. Gold will always have value - both for upgrading your other slots and for replacing your good-but-not-perfect crafted gear, and that means people will still always be looking for monster loot to sell on the AH. As long as crafting isn't a gold sink it poses no danger to the economy whatsoever.

    If the crafting mats could be sold then they would just be another form of gold, no different than crafting today. Using the materials yourself would come at the expense of the gold from selling them, which wouldn't be worth it because people are dumb about gambling and will pay more than they're really worth.

  • ChenChen Registered User regular
    Yeah... This account bound shit needs to go.

    Such a lazy mechanic.

    V0Gug2h.png
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Zek wrote: »
    They're not wrong, they find different things fun than you. They have more fun if they find the gear than if they purchase it. I know you've never been able to compute that, but just take my word for it.

    This isn't about base emotive dispositions and preferences. The situation is not:

    1: Player A prefers item acquisition via the AH.
    2: Player B prefers item acquisition via mob drops.
    Conclusion: Oh woe are we, unable to engage in any rational discourse beyond those simple preferential statements.

    We can assess the economic impact of account bound items, the economic impact of crafting as opposed to killing mobs, and even the player impact of a gaming system in which the means to best-in-slot gear is crafting as opposed to the AH.

    We can discern the likely consequences of change X. If persons prefer X that's fine. But we also need to discern what X will lead to, and whether the consequences of X result in problems that undermine a player's perceived preference for X.

    Because, again, we aren't just flinging emotions at one another.

    Zek wrote: »
    Up until this point D3 has been pretty abysmal at providing means of gear acquisition that can compare to the auction house. What you're refusing to admit is that finding true best in slot gear through this crafting is going to be impossibly difficult.

    Maybe. Or, perhaps, the guarantee of six affixes to these items, combined with the higher primary stats, will render them preferential to most of the items available on the AH. So while the items are not "best in slot" they will be "better in slot" than the majority of AH items, which reduces demand for AH items, which drops the price of AH items, which makes it more difficult to acquire the gold needed to purchase upgrades via the AH while one farms crafting mats.
    Zek wrote: »
    Gold will always have value - both for upgrading your other slots and for replacing your good-but-not-perfect crafted gear, and that means people will still always be looking for monster loot to sell on the AH. As long as crafting isn't a gold sink it poses no danger to the economy whatsoever.

    The new crafted items will change the bar, so to speak, on what counts as preferable and desired gear. 6-stat account bound items with high base stats are pretty good. So, 4-stat mob items will be less desirable, which drives their prices down, etc.

  • ChenChen Registered User regular
    _J_ has ignited my desire to fire up D2 again and my old account lives!

    Holy shit. I found more unique items in 10 minutes than in 3 months time in D3.

    Feels good, man.

    V0Gug2h.png
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Chen wrote: »
    _J_ has ignited my desire to fire up D2 again and my old account lives!

    Holy shit. I found more unique items in 10 minutes than in 3 months time in D3.

    Feels good, man.

    Yeah, I like to log on and farm to remind myself of how awesome things can be awesome, and how D3 is the opposite of awesome.

    It's as if Mephisto thinks it's my birthday, and so he showers me with goreshovels and digglers!

  • eelektrikeelektrik Southern CaliforniaRegistered User regular
    So did they ever actually properly itemize D3 instead of just being lazy and pretty much doing all loot as randomly generated items? That was one of the reasons D2 was better. It had unique items that were useful throughout the entire level range of the game, and they would actually drop enough to keep you going for more. D3 has some legendary items or whatever, but I played through Normal one and a half times before getting bored, never saw one once even though I know there are some lower level legendary items.

    (She/Her)
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    eelektrik wrote: »
    So did they ever actually properly itemize D3 instead of just being lazy and pretty much doing all loot as randomly generated items? That was one of the reasons D2 was better. It had unique items that were useful throughout the entire level range of the game, and they would actually drop enough to keep you going for more. D3 has some legendary items or whatever, but I played through Normal one and a half times before getting bored, never saw one once even though I know there are some lower level legendary items.

    D3 went with legendary / set items for primarily end-game content, rather than D2's model of legendary / sets through the level progression.

    So, no, we never got Sigon's boots in D3.

    Also, D2 isn't as great as you remember. It was totally awful. At least, that's what Jay Wilson said.

  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    D3's distribution of legendary items was really weird.

    Most of the legendary items actually are sub level 60 items, but the chances of one dropping were incredibly low. It was completely possible to get to 60 without one dropping, since they removed the "new characters who make boss kills get awesome loot" system, and made boss farming pretty much pointless for any character.

    Some of them can be kinda useful for twinking out a new character, but once you get all five character classes up to 60 there's not much point in making new characters, either.

  • SavantSavant Simply Barbaric Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    eelektrik wrote: »
    So did they ever actually properly itemize D3 instead of just being lazy and pretty much doing all loot as randomly generated items? That was one of the reasons D2 was better. It had unique items that were useful throughout the entire level range of the game, and they would actually drop enough to keep you going for more. D3 has some legendary items or whatever, but I played through Normal one and a half times before getting bored, never saw one once even though I know there are some lower level legendary items.

    Well, a big part of why all the wacky bonuses were so good relatively in D2 was because most of the main stats were sucky. In most circumstances you only wanted enough str to wear your gear, enough dex to max block if you wore an appropriate shield, and then you'd dump the rest into vit. Now the main stats are good and scale well (int gives you damage for your spells instead of energy just giving you more mana) and with weapons everything scales on weapon dps, so it makes items more boring.

    Also, somewhat as a result D2 wasn't really as tight on trying to balance everything. So it didn't matter if a low level legendary had a sucky damage range on your caster, what you cared about were the oddball affixes that didn't show up on other things.

    Savant on
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    dml.png

    Price check? Perfect crit, high hatred regen, very high dex/vit rolls, almost perfect attack speed... but then there's that awful skill roll.

  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    So, everyone who wants to smash monsters and get progression on their characters without fiddling with the AH is wrong. If they say that's what they like, their desires must be wrong; the only correct desires are the ones _J_ has. Good to see you haven't lost perspective.

    They're ignoring the economic impacts of their desires on the game's economy, specifically the long-term repercussions of moving from gear-acquisition farming to crafting-mat-acquisition farming.

    It's the mentality one finds on the official forums: "Why can't I find an ungrade every run!?!?!" Well, because that system is not sustainable over the long term when there is a hard cap on gear / character levels. "Why can't I find items that sell for 100M+ gold all the time?" Well, because in order to allow you to get that level of items, we would have to manipulate the RNG to be such that everyone gets those items, and that lowers the market prices, and so what once sold for 100M+ will now sell for 20M, or less.

    It's the same short-sighted mentality that led persons to be shocked, shocked!, that increasing legendary stats and increasing legendary drop rates resulted in lower prices for the majority of legendaries and rares.

    A game in which persons can quickly acquire their own best in slot items without ever having to trade with anyone is not sustainable over the long term. If Blizzard added more end game content it might be viable, but since the entire game is "acquire better gear" there's nothing for these people to do once they craft the best items. They could then farm to get items to sell but OH SHIT the system that allowed them to acquire their own gear reduced the marketability of other items.

    It's the opposite of a good solution.

    First off you can't just craft the best items. You're going to get random rolls on them, just like every other item. You farm, you craft and hope your crafts are better than what's on the AH or what you've crafted already. "once they craft the best items" is never going to happen. They've implemented a system of progression that's protected from market effects. You don't have a ton of cheap less than perfect items of this type all over the AH, it's something everyone has to work the same amount to get.

    And of course it's going to reduce the value of items in those slots, because the demand will be reduced. But who cares? The goal isn't to sell chestplates for at least 2.5 million gold, it's to get better gear. You haven't listed a single plausible repercussion of this change that is actually a problem.

    Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
  • SavantSavant Simply Barbaric Registered User regular
    dml.png

    Price check? Perfect crit, high hatred regen, very high dex/vit rolls, almost perfect attack speed... but then there's that awful skill roll.

    $Texas. Cluster arrow may turn out to be good (even though that roll is bad) if the buffs to MP end up mattering, as one of the runes of it does ridiculous damage if you aim it right.

  • IncindiumIncindium Registered User regular
    Jumped in and play a bit today for the first time in a month or two... My first legendary of 2013 actually isn't to shabby.

    IKBelt.png

    steam_sig.png
    Nintendo ID: Incindium
    PSN: IncindiumX
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    found another manticore, this one had 2 sockets but 930 dps. it has 330 dex and 110 vit though so maybe it's worth something

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    dml.png

    Price check? Perfect crit, high hatred regen, very high dex/vit rolls, almost perfect attack speed... but then there's that awful skill roll.

    At least 125M for dex/vit/atk%/crit.

    Awful skill roll is awful.

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    And of course it's going to reduce the value of items in those slots, because the demand will be reduced. But who cares? The goal isn't to sell chestplates for at least 2.5 million gold, it's to get better gear. You haven't listed a single plausible repercussion of this change that is actually a problem.

    Reducing the value of other items in those slots is actually problem, actually.

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    8375012103_5cd98f8bb7.jpg

    Yey monies.

  • sumwarsumwar Registered User regular
    I'm a whirlwind tornado barb and I'm trying to farm as fast as possible and I can keep wrath of the berserker up about 25-33% of the time. If I can keep it up longer then I move faster since it gives 20% move speed and move speed is king. My goal from now on is to get as much crit/attack speed as possible. I have decent crit/attack speed but I've got room to improve.

  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    got 15m for my manticore. I feel like I should have charged more but it was tricky to price

  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    And of course it's going to reduce the value of items in those slots, because the demand will be reduced. But who cares? The goal isn't to sell chestplates for at least 2.5 million gold, it's to get better gear. You haven't listed a single plausible repercussion of this change that is actually a problem.

    Reducing the value of other items in those slots is actually problem, actually.

    Why is that a problem? Having higher prices on certain items isn't an intrinsic good.

    Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
  • SkutSkutSkutSkut Registered User regular
    I don't think the craftable bis items (which will most likely just be bracers, ammys and gloves) will kill the economy, now it will change it up a bit, depending on how good they are and the crafting cost gold will definitely go back up in the RMAH and crafting materials will probably shoot up so you'll have more people salvaging rares if those are used in it which means less money around overall. If tomes are used those'll probably shoot up in price too. So instead of picking up rare gloves, bracers and boots to sell you'll most likely id and if they're trash salvage them.

    I don't like the idea either, gearing up is in the hunt, but I'm curious to see where they're going with this.

  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    Not even sure if bracers will make a big difference - you can't roll +IAS on them, so won't +crit Lacuni's still outdo pretty much everything?

  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    Yeah in all likelihood if your BiS is a legendary that will still be the case. I'm guessing the bonus to the crafted primary stat will be maybe +50 at best.

  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    Rolo wrote: »
    Not even sure if bracers will make a big difference - you can't roll +IAS on them, so won't +crit Lacuni's still outdo pretty much everything?

    not really relevant to 99.9999% of people since the defensive stats you give up completely nullify the dps increase

  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    Jars wrote: »
    Rolo wrote: »
    Not even sure if bracers will make a big difference - you can't roll +IAS on them, so won't +crit Lacuni's still outdo pretty much everything?

    not really relevant to 99.9999% of people since the defensive stats you give up completely nullify the dps increase

    defensive...stats? what are those?

  • MatzMatz Bronze Grandmaster FurieRegistered User regular
    Will be interesting to see how this patch pans out. Overall I'm looking forward to it. If nothing else it will at least be something NEW to do.

    Plus it should make me get back into my barb who is pretty effective at high MP levels. Will be interesting to see where the most efficient MP level is for him now as far as XP gain is concerned. He may even be more effective than my Twirly monk which is probably only effective at MP 0.

    Are they also upping the MF% for higher MP? If not then the twirly monk might still be better for item farming given the speed of clearance and the amount of mobs mown through.

    2uenpg3.png

    Lose: The opposite of win
    Loose: Your mum
    _J_ wrote: »
    I imagine that I make more money from D3 than I would make sucking dick. But I wouldn't want to spend either my D3 or dick sucking money on gear.
  • TTODewbackTTODewback Puts the drawl in ya'll I think I'm in HellRegistered User regular
    Finished getting my 2nd monk to 60. now it's time for my 2nd WD who seems to be so much faster.
    God monks suck so bad. I had to bump my MP down in hell because my monk couldn't handle nearly as well as every other class even with a full set of level reduced gear.

    Bless your heart.
  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    Why are you leveling two of the same class to 60?

  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    he wants the achievement, but somehow missed the "create hardcore character" checkbox

  • MatzMatz Bronze Grandmaster FurieRegistered User regular
    TTODewback wrote: »
    Finished getting my 2nd monk to 60. now it's time for my 2nd WD who seems to be so much faster.
    God monks suck so bad. I had to bump my MP down in hell because my monk couldn't handle nearly as well as every other class even with a full set of level reduced gear.

    Tempest-rushing at no MP would have got you to 60 and Inferno in no time.

    2uenpg3.png

    Lose: The opposite of win
    Loose: Your mum
    _J_ wrote: »
    I imagine that I make more money from D3 than I would make sucking dick. But I wouldn't want to spend either my D3 or dick sucking money on gear.
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    So I just logged into this to play my act 1 nightmare monk as something to do for a bit of brainless fun.

    WTF is a keywarden and why is it approximately 10X harder to murder than anything else I fight?

    EDIT: while I'm here too what stats for monk as I go further on?

    Albino Bunny on
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    So I just logged into this to play my act 1 nightmare monk as something to do for a bit of brainless fun.

    WTF is a keywarden and why is it approximately 10X harder to murder than anything else I fight?

    EDIT: while I'm here too what stats for monk as I go further on?

    They're part of an inferno metaquest that lets you craft Hellfire Rings. The keywardens appear in earlier difficulties, but don't offer any particular special reward unless you are on Inferno.


    edit: As a monk you want dex, dex, dex, dex, dex, and dex. And a little vit, too. No need to think about anything more complex than that until you get closer to level 60.

    Dehumanized on
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Cool, so if I have a choice between damage and vit I should take damage?

    Also I feel like I should have some HP on hit but not sure how much to give up for it.

  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    Found this yesterday. Not sure what its worth, but its definitely worth something.

    SunKeeper_zps5f01e6b3.jpg

  • MatzMatz Bronze Grandmaster FurieRegistered User regular
    I wonder if the value of Leoric's will now plummet?

    Although it is good now - as the best way to PL farm is generally at MP0/1 where you can easily afford the loss of ring stats - if it is better to farm PL at a higher MP (or if Leoric's forces you to drop an MP level and thus lose a chunk of exp anyway) then it might actually be a detriment.

    2uenpg3.png

    Lose: The opposite of win
    Loose: Your mum
    _J_ wrote: »
    I imagine that I make more money from D3 than I would make sucking dick. But I wouldn't want to spend either my D3 or dick sucking money on gear.
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