Incidentally, Magic Pink, or anyone else, I apologise sincerely if I've come off as offensive or even mysoginistic with my replies.
I just fail to find this a big deal, hence it's probably more ignorance on my behalf than anything else.
Don't apologize for feeling the way you do. They certainly aren't apologizing for their take on it to those of us with the minority view (not that I expect them to or think they should).
Oh I do to. It sucks that hard working people who legitmately made a game I really really love have to get lumped in with some complete chowder heads who make terrible decisions but not giving them any more of my money, at all, for anything, is literally the only effective way to protest this. There are many other ways, true, but none of them have the oomph of cash behind it.
And if they pull this thing, I'll slap them with fat stacks of cash again, happily.
So you'll reward them for caving to outside pressure to pull an item that a vocal groups deems offensive? Just because they make a marketing decision (and that's exactly what it will be) to save face doesn't negate what they were going to do in the first place, does it? I'm surprised you'd give them the second chance.
Incidentally, Magic Pink, or anyone else, I apologise sincerely if I've come off as offensive or even mysoginistic with my replies.
I just fail to find this a big deal, hence it's probably more ignorance on my behalf than anything else.
Don't apologize for feeling the way you do. They certainly aren't apologizing for their take on it to those of us with the minority view (not that I expect them to or think they should).
Actually Grinch is being alright and making an effort to understand both sides, but expressing where his personal impression comes from and explaining why. That's far less objectionable than willfully ignoring any and all attempts to explain to you exactly how this thing is misogynistic and how it paints a very poor picture of the games industry. Stop looking for allies.
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MalReynoldsThe Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicinesRegistered Userregular
Oh I do to. It sucks that hard working people who legitmately made a game I really really love have to get lumped in with some complete chowder heads who make terrible decisions but not giving them any more of my money, at all, for anything, is literally the only effective way to protest this. There are many other ways, true, but none of them have the oomph of cash behind it.
And if they pull this thing, I'll slap them with fat stacks of cash again, happily.
So you'll reward them for caving to outside pressure to pull an item that a vocal groups deems offensive? Just because they make a marketing decision (and that's exactly what it will be) to save face doesn't negate what they were going to do in the first place, does it? I'm surprised you'd give them the second chance.
If they pull it, it means they learned and learning is a good thing because it implies that they are capable of change and change, much like learning is a good thing.
...
Italics.
"A new take on the epic fantasy genre... Darkly comic, relatable characters... twisted storyline."
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
That said, show your girlfriend this thing, see if she still wants to get it?
I showed the statue to my wife and she didn't really think it was sexist until I explained it to her. But even then she kinda shrugged it off saying it was ugly and hoped that I wouldn't get it and put it in my room (I am a sucker for statues). This one I am skipping on. Still getting DI2 but holy shit they dropped the ball on this... If it was a zombie head I would be ALL over it (as would many of us, I'm sure). I just don't get their line of thinking.
I find it amusing that you had to explain to a woman why something was offensive toward women. I explained in pretty decent detail what the statue was to my wife and her response was "so it's mangled corpse from a game about mangled corpses? That makes sense." I'm curious how many of the people from this thread are females and are offended by this, since so far the anecdotal evidence is pointing towards men making a bigger deal out of it than women.
Oh I do to. It sucks that hard working people who legitmately made a game I really really love have to get lumped in with some complete chowder heads who make terrible decisions but not giving them any more of my money, at all, for anything, is literally the only effective way to protest this. There are many other ways, true, but none of them have the oomph of cash behind it.
And if they pull this thing, I'll slap them with fat stacks of cash again, happily.
So you'll reward them for caving to outside pressure to pull an item that a vocal groups deems offensive? Just because they make a marketing decision (and that's exactly what it will be) to save face doesn't negate what they were going to do in the first place, does it? I'm surprised you'd give them the second chance.
If they pull it, it means they learned and learning is a good thing because it implies that they are capable of change and change, much like learning is a good thing.
...
Italics.
Well that's not true. If they pulled it that doesn't necessarily mean they learned anything from it.
So, are we just not allowed to put boobs in anything anymore? Is that where this is? Should all women in video games be dressed like Eskimos or in a Burqa?
So, are we just not allowed to put boobs in anything anymore? Is that where this is? Should all women in video games be dressed like Eskimos or in a Burqa?
While that would be interesting, your ideas are fairly extreme and the extreme solution is rarely a good solution.
Let's start slowly and have them wear pants and regular shirts, then we'll re-think the burqa.
So, are we just not allowed to put boobs in anything anymore? Is that where this is? Should all women in video games be dressed like Eskimos or in a Burqa?
I find it amusing that you had to explain to a woman why something was offensive toward women.
Are you somehow under the impression that women have some kind of immunity barrier to sexism and just make up their own separate culture as they grow up?
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CuvisTheConquerorThey always say "yee haw" but they never ask "haw yee?" Registered Userregular
So, are we just not allowed to put boobs in anything anymore? Is that where this is? Should all women in video games be dressed like Eskimos or in a Burqa?
So, you're really wanting that dismembered torso statue, then?
Incidentally, Magic Pink, or anyone else, I apologise sincerely if I've come off as offensive or even mysoginistic with my replies.
I just fail to find this a big deal, hence it's probably more ignorance on my behalf than anything else.
Don't apologize for feeling the way you do. They certainly aren't apologizing for their take on it to those of us with the minority view (not that I expect them to or think they should).
Actually Grinch is being alright and making an effort to understand both sides, but expressing where his personal impression comes from and explaining why. That's far less objectionable than willfully ignoring any and all attempts to explain to you exactly how this thing is misogynistic and how it paints a very poor picture of the games industry. Stop looking for allies.
And stop trying to make me look like I'm a bad guy. I went ASKING for why people thought it was misogynistic. I got ONE reply that was representative of someone's own feelings on it which was a very well written explanation. Everyone else either shouted me down, played the "I call it is and I call you can't argue!" card (Magic Pink) or linked to outside articles explaining it for them. I don't disagree that it paints a poor picture of the games industry. My disagreement lies elsewhere.
So where is the line drawn? Business suits? How much skin is too much and who gets to decide the global gaming standard for women? And then once that is decided, when do we move on to the men?
Incidentally, Magic Pink, or anyone else, I apologise sincerely if I've come off as offensive or even mysoginistic with my replies.
I just fail to find this a big deal, hence it's probably more ignorance on my behalf than anything else.
Don't apologize for feeling the way you do. They certainly aren't apologizing for their take on it to those of us with the minority view (not that I expect them to or think they should).
Actually Grinch is being alright and making an effort to understand both sides, but expressing where his personal impression comes from and explaining why. That's far less objectionable than willfully ignoring any and all attempts to explain to you exactly how this thing is misogynistic and how it paints a very poor picture of the games industry. Stop looking for allies.
And stop trying to make me look like I'm a bad guy. I went ASKING for why people thought it was misogynistic. I got ONE reply that was representative of someone's own feelings on it which was a very well written explanation. Everyone else either shouted me down, played the "I call it is and I call you can't argue!" card (Magic Pink) or linked to outside articles explaining it for them. I don't disagree that it paints a poor picture of the games industry. My disagreement lies elsewhere.
I have sat here and read through this thread from when I stopped yesterday, and you were given numerous answers and definitions, all of which you completely ignored. You did, right here in this thread. Many times. I'm not trying to make you look like anything.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
So where is the line drawn? Business suits? How much skin is too much and who gets to decide the global gaming standard for women? And then once that is decided, when do we move on to the men?
Here; sure, why not; more than 75% of the character; character designers; 2043.
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MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
It's not that boobs were present. Breasts are a part of the female anatomy and perfectly natural. The issue here, I believe, is that the statue was pretty much JUST boobs. Overemphasizing them isn't a good thing. It's perfectly understandable that women on an island resort would be wearing bikinis that show off breasts and butts, however, the company had a lot of options on what type of swag to make for a collector's edition, the option they chose, is pretty much a statue of just boobs, which isn't a very good PR move. Personally, I really like Dead Island, and am still playing it, I would absolutely go BONKERS if their swag was that tree with the person hanging from it that's in the title. It would have been edgy and controversial without having such a sexist overtone.
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CuvisTheConquerorThey always say "yee haw" but they never ask "haw yee?" Registered Userregular
So where is the line drawn? Business suits? How much skin is too much and who gets to decide the global gaming standard for women? And then once that is decided, when do we move on to the men?
I find it hilarious that you think the problem here is the bikini. Not that it's a gory, dismembered torso, but the bikini.
I could give 2 shits less about the torso. It's not something I want in my house simply because that isn't my style. If I was into dismembered body parts I would probably have a huge collection of Todd McFarlane toys.
I just want to know why boobs = sexism, what level of sexism it is, and when and where do we setup the rules to determine what is ok and what isn't.
I find it amusing that you had to explain to a woman why something was offensive toward women.
Are you somehow under the impression that women have some kind of immunity barrier to sexism and just make up their own separate culture as they grow up?
That makes no sense to me at all. How did you come to that? I'm saying that it's ironic that the reason why something was offensive towards women had to explained to a woman. That goes against expectations, does it not?
Incidentally, Magic Pink, or anyone else, I apologise sincerely if I've come off as offensive or even mysoginistic with my replies.
I just fail to find this a big deal, hence it's probably more ignorance on my behalf than anything else.
Don't apologize for feeling the way you do. They certainly aren't apologizing for their take on it to those of us with the minority view (not that I expect them to or think they should).
Actually Grinch is being alright and making an effort to understand both sides, but expressing where his personal impression comes from and explaining why. That's far less objectionable than willfully ignoring any and all attempts to explain to you exactly how this thing is misogynistic and how it paints a very poor picture of the games industry. Stop looking for allies.
And stop trying to make me look like I'm a bad guy. I went ASKING for why people thought it was misogynistic. I got ONE reply that was representative of someone's own feelings on it which was a very well written explanation. Everyone else either shouted me down, played the "I call it is and I call you can't argue!" card (Magic Pink) or linked to outside articles explaining it for them. I don't disagree that it paints a poor picture of the games industry. My disagreement lies elsewhere.
I have sat here and read through this thread from when I stopped yesterday, and you were given numerous answers and definitions, all of which you completely ignored. You did, right here in this thread. Many times. I'm not trying to make you look like anything.
I'll go back and find them then, because ONE person responded to me in their own words that I then replied to. If others did after I left the thread and came back to it late last night, then I just missed them. But when the conversation was at its most heated yesterday, no one explained to me why they thought what they did. They just said "it is so."
I just want to know why boobs = sexism, what level of sexism it is, and when and where do we setup the rules to determine what is ok and what isn't.
Luckily for you there was an entire thread that answered this question repeatedly and thoroughly! Look for one of the links PreciousBodilyFluids posted or go seek out the #1ReasonWhy thread, you'll find all kinds of responses to your inane fear of burqas.
Not really, no. Women are more likely to be aware of it because of confrontation that doesn't exist for dudes, but most women participate just like most men do because it's a systemic problem.
It's not that boobs were present. Breasts are a part of the female anatomy and perfectly natural. The issue here, I believe, is that the statue was pretty much JUST boobs. Overemphasizing them isn't a good thing. It's perfectly understandable that women on an island resort would be wearing bikinis that show off breasts and butts, however, the company had a lot of options on what type of swag to make for a collector's edition, the option they chose, is pretty much a statue of just boobs, which isn't a very good PR move. Personally, I really like Dead Island, and am still playing it, I would absolutely go BONKERS if their swag was that tree with the person hanging from it that's in the title. It would have been edgy and controversial without having such a sexist overtone.
Then people could go on foolishly about racism. That would be a fun one. Actually, I'm surprised that no one ever really mentioned that at all. What does a hanging body have to do with zombies? I so don't care, it doesn't bother me, it's just an oddity.
So where is the line drawn? Business suits? How much skin is too much and who gets to decide the global gaming standard for women? And then once that is decided, when do we move on to the men?
I find it hilarious that you think the problem here is the bikini. Not that it's a gory, dismembered torso, but the bikini.
Hilarious? Really? You're laughing so hard right now you can't breathe right? Amazing you had the ability to type that while all the hilarity you're enjoying right now.
I'm not the one with the problem, I am trying to figure out why people think it's sexist. There is nothing wrong with it being a gory, dismembered torso. Just because it isn't the most favored of accessories for a game doesn't make it bad. Besides, this comes with a game where the entire goal is to dismember people. I shouldn't have to explain how much violence is in video games and how when there is a situation that calls for blame by influence of video games the entire gaming community rises up calling games "Free expression" and "Art." Let us not be hypocritical here.
I could give 2 shits less about the torso. It's not something I want in my house simply because that isn't my style. If I was into dismembered body parts I would probably have a huge collection of Todd McFarlane toys.
I just want to know why boobs = sexism, what level of sexism it is, and when and where do we setup the rules to determine what is ok and what isn't.
Not really, no. Women are more likely to be aware of it because of confrontation that doesn't exist for dudes, but most women participate just like most men do because it's a systemic problem.
If women don't immediately find it offensive without having to be explained why they should be offended, it's not exactly offensive toward women, is it? I don't understand how this is a hard concept to follow.
Incidentally, Magic Pink, or anyone else, I apologise sincerely if I've come off as offensive or even mysoginistic with my replies.
I just fail to find this a big deal, hence it's probably more ignorance on my behalf than anything else.
Don't apologize for feeling the way you do. They certainly aren't apologizing for their take on it to those of us with the minority view (not that I expect them to or think they should).
The reason we aren't apologizing is because our feelings don't create and sustain a society where women are systematically ignored, demeaned, abused, and raped with a shocking degree of frequency.
That said, show your girlfriend this thing, see if she still wants to get it?
I showed the statue to my wife and she didn't really think it was sexist until I explained it to her. But even then she kinda shrugged it off saying it was ugly and hoped that I wouldn't get it and put it in my room (I am a sucker for statues). This one I am skipping on. Still getting DI2 but holy shit they dropped the ball on this... If it was a zombie head I would be ALL over it (as would many of us, I'm sure). I just don't get their line of thinking.
I find it amusing that you had to explain to a woman why something was offensive toward women. I explained in pretty decent detail what the statue was to my wife and her response was "so it's mangled corpse from a game about mangled corpses? That makes sense." I'm curious how many of the people from this thread are females and are offended by this, since so far the anecdotal evidence is pointing towards men making a bigger deal out of it than women.
No part of feminism or other arguments about sexism or misogyny rely on the fact that women will always be able to see it with unerring accuracy, because that is obviously not true. What is often most insidious about the misogyny inherent in things like this collector's edition statue is that it doesn't look like misogyny - it just looks like a statue. Women are sometimes better than men at seeing stuff like this, but they aren't always better, and certainly no individual woman is any better than any given man, or any other given woman. If you want to play the "oh look a woman agrees with me I must be right" game I'm pretty confident that we can take our thread on the road to normal women and get responses from horrified women that would outnumber urahonky's wife and those like her by a pretty good margin.
So, are we just not allowed to put boobs in anything anymore? Is that where this is? Should all women in video games be dressed like Eskimos or in a Burqa?
Incidentally, Magic Pink, or anyone else, I apologise sincerely if I've come off as offensive or even mysoginistic with my replies.
I just fail to find this a big deal, hence it's probably more ignorance on my behalf than anything else.
Don't apologize for feeling the way you do. They certainly aren't apologizing for their take on it to those of us with the minority view (not that I expect them to or think they should).
Actually Grinch is being alright and making an effort to understand both sides, but expressing where his personal impression comes from and explaining why. That's far less objectionable than willfully ignoring any and all attempts to explain to you exactly how this thing is misogynistic and how it paints a very poor picture of the games industry. Stop looking for allies.
And stop trying to make me look like I'm a bad guy. I went ASKING for why people thought it was misogynistic. I got ONE reply that was representative of someone's own feelings on it which was a very well written explanation. Everyone else either shouted me down, played the "I call it is and I call you can't argue!" card (Magic Pink) or linked to outside articles explaining it for them. I don't disagree that it paints a poor picture of the games industry. My disagreement lies elsewhere.
Your response to the "outside articles explaining it for them" is what really soured me on you. The petulant attitude of "no, you must explain all of sexism to me" is just so ridiculously inimical to communication and understanding that it's impossible to assume that you're anything other than a troll or just not very bright. Sexism, misogyny, and other issues that feminism addresses are older than recorded history, stupendously complex, and difficult to talk about because the culture we live in rests on numerous assumptions that, although untrue, are conducive to forming conclusions that are completely at odds with traditional, accepted, proven feminist arguments. Without at least a bit of effort on the part of any given person to educate themselves about the issues and understand what's going on, they're almost never going to end up believing anything other than what they already came in believing.
So when someone links you some articles, some tiny little baby steps to take on the long road to understanding, some helpful sources of information to try to grasp why decent human beings should have a problem with this statue, you refuse to read them, throw them back in that person's face, and stomp your foot because you only want your information to be delivered in the form of a Penny Arcade forum post. I had half a mind just to copy and paste the articles into a post and only reveal at the end that they were the articles had been linked, but I suspect it would have been useless - between the post where you rejected the articles and the rest of your posts here, I'm pretty sure you've sealed off parts of your world view from questioning, and nothing I nor anyone else can write on an Internet forum is ever going to open those parts of your mind up.
Not really, no. Women are more likely to be aware of it because of confrontation that doesn't exist for dudes, but most women participate just like most men do because it's a systemic problem.
If women don't immediately find it offensive without having to be explained why they should be offended, it's not exactly offensive toward women, is it? I don't understand how this is a hard concept to follow.
My wife looked at it. Said "Well that is different, I wonder where we would put that?" And then she grabbed her boobs and said "I wonder if mine are bigger?"
It's not that boobs were present. Breasts are a part of the female anatomy and perfectly natural. The issue here, I believe, is that the statue was pretty much JUST boobs. Overemphasizing them isn't a good thing. It's perfectly understandable that women on an island resort would be wearing bikinis that show off breasts and butts, however, the company had a lot of options on what type of swag to make for a collector's edition, the option they chose, is pretty much a statue of just boobs, which isn't a very good PR move. Personally, I really like Dead Island, and am still playing it, I would absolutely go BONKERS if their swag was that tree with the person hanging from it that's in the title. It would have been edgy and controversial without having such a sexist overtone.
Then people could go on foolishly about racism. That would be a fun one. Actually, I'm surprised that no one ever really mentioned that at all. What does a hanging body have to do with zombies? I so don't care, it doesn't bother me, it's just an oddity.
To me it symbolizes the despair of the population on this resort and would be appropriate. I also think that they could have easily defended themselves against racism by simply pointing out that suicide is not the same thing as lynching.
The PR staff want to create buzz for Dead Island, I think they knew from the start they were going to create something controversial. After all, as far as violence goes, I think Dead Island takes the cake since I can't think of any other games where you break people's arms with hammers and then laugh maniacally as they flop around. Controversy is actually good for a game like this, the problem, as I said before, is that they had options on the kind of controversy they chose. Their intended controversy was people going "OMG it's a bloody torso, how disgusting!" which is very appropriate for a zombie game, they were caught with their pants down when people reacted to the fact that there's massive titties that are in somewhat pristine condition on an otherwise mutilated torso. It's like that one chick in the Transformers movie looking Victoria Secret perfect in a collapsing building and primping up her makeup. The creepy message here is "mutilate our women all you want, but, for the love of god, leave us their boobies".
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Me and my wife have a gamer YouTube page if interested www.youtube.com/TeamMarriage
So where is the line drawn? Business suits? How much skin is too much and who gets to decide the global gaming standard for women? And then once that is decided, when do we move on to the men?
I find it hilarious that you think the problem here is the bikini. Not that it's a gory, dismembered torso, but the bikini.
Hilarious? Really? You're laughing so hard right now you can't breathe right? Amazing you had the ability to type that while all the hilarity you're enjoying right now.
I'm not the one with the problem, I am trying to figure out why people think it's sexist. There is nothing wrong with it being a gory, dismembered torso. Just because it isn't the most favored of accessories for a game doesn't make it bad. Besides, this comes with a game where the entire goal is to dismember people. I shouldn't have to explain how much violence is in video games and how when there is a situation that calls for blame by influence of video games the entire gaming community rises up calling games "Free expression" and "Art." Let us not be hypocritical here.
As has been said many times, it is literally, in the most correct usage of the word, reducing women down to a pair of ginormous tits. They are unrealistically proportioned norks, completely unscathed despite the horrendous things that have happened to the rest of their owner. They're not in any way a normal, human pair of breasts, which would go in any way to making this even slightly more reasonable. They are the supposed male ideal of what a woman needs to be packing. It is an idealised male fantasy. Nobody, but nobody is saying "you can't have breasts in a game Burqas for everyone!" but when you take a depiction of a woman as imagined by an undersexed horny adolescent and use it as a collector's item, that is the most literal way society has managed to objectify a woman. It is sexist.
Not really, no. Women are more likely to be aware of it because of confrontation that doesn't exist for dudes, but most women participate just like most men do because it's a systemic problem.
If women don't immediately find it offensive without having to be explained why they should be offended, it's not exactly offensive toward women, is it? I don't understand how this is a hard concept to follow.
Your logic only makes sense if you think of women as an alien, singular hive mind. If you instead have an understanding of human beings and understand that women are part of that group, your logic looks like that of a bafflingly ignorant goose.
That said, show your girlfriend this thing, see if she still wants to get it?
I showed the statue to my wife and she didn't really think it was sexist until I explained it to her. But even then she kinda shrugged it off saying it was ugly and hoped that I wouldn't get it and put it in my room (I am a sucker for statues). This one I am skipping on. Still getting DI2 but holy shit they dropped the ball on this... If it was a zombie head I would be ALL over it (as would many of us, I'm sure). I just don't get their line of thinking.
I find it amusing that you had to explain to a woman why something was offensive toward women. I explained in pretty decent detail what the statue was to my wife and her response was "so it's mangled corpse from a game about mangled corpses? That makes sense." I'm curious how many of the people from this thread are females and are offended by this, since so far the anecdotal evidence is pointing towards men making a bigger deal out of it than women.
Oh just be quiet already. Since you're such in love with personal story's and people in your own circle, then I'll tell you mine.
I am female.
I saw the statue and I was immediately offended.
Am I a zombie/gore fan? Not at all, hate the stuff, but normally I'm not offended by zombie games and the like because, whatever, I don't care. Just not for me.
As many, many, people have told you it's an insulting example of the glorification of violence against women in media and kinda insulting to gamers in general. (Boobs and gore! WOO!)
And that's not all! My online gaming friends who are female are ALSO offended. CRAZY RIGHT? Gee, we just must be influenced by our male betters or something.
So where is the line drawn? Business suits? How much skin is too much and who gets to decide the global gaming standard for women? And then once that is decided, when do we move on to the men?
The line is that you don't put a dismembered female torso with massive undamaged dressed dressed in a bikini into your collector's edition video game box and you don't do stuff that's similar to this and if you don't understand where the line is then you get a job that doesn't involve making these decisions. You're either playing devil's advocate, you're obtuse, or you're just super sexist. There's nothing wrong with any of these three things (and I do mean there is nothing wrong with being sexist, not because it's OK, because it's not, but because lots of people are sexist and I can't really expect the PA forums to be some happy island of feminism), but you just need to accept that if you're wearing any of these three hats, you're not really capable of making these decisions. You just don't understand the issue.
Not really, no. Women are more likely to be aware of it because of confrontation that doesn't exist for dudes, but most women participate just like most men do because it's a systemic problem.
If women don't immediately find it offensive without having to be explained why they should be offended, it's not exactly offensive toward women, is it? I don't understand how this is a hard concept to follow.
My wife looked at it. Said "Well that is different, I wonder where we would put that?" And then she grabbed her boobs and said "I wonder if mine are bigger?"
If women don't immediately find it offensive without having to be explained why they should be offended, it's not exactly offensive toward women, is it? I don't understand how this is a hard concept to follow.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing. Some people being unaware of an offense because you're saturated with it from birth isn't the same as no offense existing. It's actually almost like you could apply that to people of either gender. Weird!
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MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
I was actually somewhat refreshed that in the game of Dead Island, the women's bodies were NOT in pristine condition, as you would expect after they were chewed to death by a zombie horde. A lot of them had a breast bitten off, the jocky-type guys were ripped open, I mean it pretty much emphasized to me the destruction of these zombie hordes. To see something like that was pretty cool to me, when you look closely at the zombie you can see the pain that this poor individual went through, where a lot of movies and games tend to really not make the zombies look all that...zombie-like. I mean you always have that scene when someone is in the process of getting devoured, but here I felt a lot more immersed in the game and really felt like a survivor, as opposed to Left 4 Dead where I just point my boomstick at a bunch of pixels and click the mouse to make them go away.
I am saddened because there is just SO MUCH that they could have done here to make it an awesome Collector's Edition. I have not bought a Collector's Edition for anything since Everquest 1, however if they did something cool enough I would have given this more than half a thought.
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The reason we aren't apologizing is because our feelings don't create and sustain a society where women are systematically ignored, demeaned, abused, and raped with a shocking degree of frequency.
You and I? We're just observers. We didn't create any of this. Don't imply that I did or that my reaction does. And suggesting that my take on this sustains any of what you said is foolish and insulting.
No part of feminism or other arguments about sexism or misogyny rely on the fact that women will always be able to see it with unerring accuracy, because that is obviously not true. What is often most insidious about the misogyny inherent in things like this collector's edition statue is that it doesn't look like misogyny - it just looks like a statue. Women are sometimes better than men at seeing stuff like this, but they aren't always better, and certainly no individual woman is any better than any given man, or any other given woman. If you want to play the "oh look a woman agrees with me I must be right" game I'm pretty confident that we can take our thread on the road to normal women and get responses from horrified women that would outnumber urahonky's wife and those like her by a pretty good margin.
I pointed out something that was funny to me because it was ironic. I didn't close the debate based on a single incident. Chill.
Your response to the "outside articles explaining it for them" is what really soured me on you. The petulant attitude of "no, you must explain all of sexism to me" is just so ridiculously inimical to communication and understanding that it's impossible to assume that you're anything other than a troll or just not very bright. Sexism, misogyny, and other issues that feminism addresses are older than recorded history, stupendously complex, and difficult to talk about because the culture we live in rests on numerous assumptions that, although untrue, are conducive to forming conclusions that are completely at odds with traditional, accepted, proven feminist arguments. Without at least a bit of effort on the part of any given person to educate themselves about the issues and understand what's going on, they're almost never going to end up believing anything other than what they already came in believing.
So when someone links you some articles, some tiny little baby steps to take on the long road to understanding, some helpful sources of information to try to grasp why decent human beings should have a problem with this statue, you refuse to read them, throw them back in that person's face, and stomp your foot because you only want your information to be delivered in the form of a Penny Arcade forum post. I had half a mind just to copy and paste the articles into a post and only reveal at the end that they were the articles had been linked, but I suspect it would have been useless - between the post where you rejected the articles and the rest of your posts here, I'm pretty sure you've sealed off parts of your world view from questioning, and nothing I nor anyone else can write on an Internet forum is ever going to open those parts of your mind up.
What you and everyone else seem to be missing from my arguments earlier was that I was explaining why I didn't think it was misogynistic. I expected (obviously foolishly) someone else could at least back up their convictions in their own words as I had done. I am not a troll, I'm sure you've seen my posts elsewhere on this forum as I have seen yours. I'm not going to claim to be particularly bright, but I've been told I am by others (anecdotal). I will admit that I am not the foremost authority on misogyny, but you know what? Neither is anyone else here. I have my take on things, others have theirs. If it's so hard to understand that I would want someone to tell me in their words why something is what they claim it to be without resorting to saying "it just is!" then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe I'm a lost cause. I think a lot of people in here are.
For the record: we are probably making a bigger fuss about this than anyone else, anywhere.
Not really, no. Women are more likely to be aware of it because of confrontation that doesn't exist for dudes, but most women participate just like most men do because it's a systemic problem.
If women don't immediately find it offensive without having to be explained why they should be offended, it's not exactly offensive toward women, is it? I don't understand how this is a hard concept to follow.
Your logic only makes sense if you think of women as an alien, singular hive mind. If you instead have an understanding of human beings and understand that women are part of that group, your logic looks like that of a bafflingly ignorant goose.
Good grief Women, which is it? Are you offended or not? I wish they'd make up their mind.
Ok, so let us just say it is sexist because people want to believe it's objectifying women.
What is the impact from this? Are the hundreds of thousands of women doing porn every month gonna suddenly stop? Are the masses of women that want to be fashion models being forced into their line of work? Victoria Secret gonna close up shop? Cosplay? Film?
It seems to me that women have no problem showing off their boobs en-mass for money and I don't think it takes a bunch of guys making boob statues or bikini-clad women in video games to nudge them in that direction. This kind of art doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want to and it sure as hell won't stop women from taking advantage of their sexual imagery for profit or gain. The only people who seem to have a problem with it are people that think women are 100% guilt-free from using their bodies for gain. The entire human interaction experience is inherently designed around visual-cues and always will be.
How many people upset about sexism in gaming don't have porn on their computer/mobile/whatever? I would be willing to be the number is closer to 0 than 1.
Look, all I am saying is, yeah I see a pair of boobs. Ok? Boobs exist. Women have them. That statue has them. How big could the effects of that ripple possibly be if those people in the water aren't splashing around while at the same time yelling at everyone not to make waves?
MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
The point is discussion. Things like this don't change overnight and they won't, however we are guaranteed that they will never change if we all just shrug and move on our merry way.
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So where is the line drawn? Business suits? How much skin is too much and who gets to decide the global gaming standard for women? And then once that is decided, when do we move on to the men?
I find it hilarious that you think the problem here is the bikini. Not that it's a gory, dismembered torso, but the bikini.
Hilarious? Really? You're laughing so hard right now you can't breathe right? Amazing you had the ability to type that while all the hilarity you're enjoying right now.
I'm not the one with the problem, I am trying to figure out why people think it's sexist. There is nothing wrong with it being a gory, dismembered torso. Just because it isn't the most favored of accessories for a game doesn't make it bad. Besides, this comes with a game where the entire goal is to dismember people. I shouldn't have to explain how much violence is in video games and how when there is a situation that calls for blame by influence of video games the entire gaming community rises up calling games "Free expression" and "Art." Let us not be hypocritical here.
Are you, really?
Try looking at the sculpt not as a discrete object, connected only to a particular game, but rather as another manifestation of a trend in media including, but not limited to, games that makes entertainment of brutal violence against women who conform to a particular standard of female beauty (i.e. the object of male sexual desire).
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Don't apologize for feeling the way you do. They certainly aren't apologizing for their take on it to those of us with the minority view (not that I expect them to or think they should).
So you'll reward them for caving to outside pressure to pull an item that a vocal groups deems offensive? Just because they make a marketing decision (and that's exactly what it will be) to save face doesn't negate what they were going to do in the first place, does it? I'm surprised you'd give them the second chance.
Actually Grinch is being alright and making an effort to understand both sides, but expressing where his personal impression comes from and explaining why. That's far less objectionable than willfully ignoring any and all attempts to explain to you exactly how this thing is misogynistic and how it paints a very poor picture of the games industry. Stop looking for allies.
If they pull it, it means they learned and learning is a good thing because it implies that they are capable of change and change, much like learning is a good thing.
...
Italics.
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I find it amusing that you had to explain to a woman why something was offensive toward women. I explained in pretty decent detail what the statue was to my wife and her response was "so it's mangled corpse from a game about mangled corpses? That makes sense." I'm curious how many of the people from this thread are females and are offended by this, since so far the anecdotal evidence is pointing towards men making a bigger deal out of it than women.
Well that's not true. If they pulled it that doesn't necessarily mean they learned anything from it.
While that would be interesting, your ideas are fairly extreme and the extreme solution is rarely a good solution.
Let's start slowly and have them wear pants and regular shirts, then we'll re-think the burqa.
No, don't be silly.
Are you somehow under the impression that women have some kind of immunity barrier to sexism and just make up their own separate culture as they grow up?
So, you're really wanting that dismembered torso statue, then?
And stop trying to make me look like I'm a bad guy. I went ASKING for why people thought it was misogynistic. I got ONE reply that was representative of someone's own feelings on it which was a very well written explanation. Everyone else either shouted me down, played the "I call it is and I call you can't argue!" card (Magic Pink) or linked to outside articles explaining it for them. I don't disagree that it paints a poor picture of the games industry. My disagreement lies elsewhere.
I have sat here and read through this thread from when I stopped yesterday, and you were given numerous answers and definitions, all of which you completely ignored. You did, right here in this thread. Many times. I'm not trying to make you look like anything.
Here; sure, why not; more than 75% of the character; character designers; 2043.
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I find it hilarious that you think the problem here is the bikini. Not that it's a gory, dismembered torso, but the bikini.
I just want to know why boobs = sexism, what level of sexism it is, and when and where do we setup the rules to determine what is ok and what isn't.
That makes no sense to me at all. How did you come to that? I'm saying that it's ironic that the reason why something was offensive towards women had to explained to a woman. That goes against expectations, does it not?
I'll go back and find them then, because ONE person responded to me in their own words that I then replied to. If others did after I left the thread and came back to it late last night, then I just missed them. But when the conversation was at its most heated yesterday, no one explained to me why they thought what they did. They just said "it is so."
Luckily for you there was an entire thread that answered this question repeatedly and thoroughly! Look for one of the links PreciousBodilyFluids posted or go seek out the #1ReasonWhy thread, you'll find all kinds of responses to your inane fear of burqas.
Not really, no. Women are more likely to be aware of it because of confrontation that doesn't exist for dudes, but most women participate just like most men do because it's a systemic problem.
Then people could go on foolishly about racism. That would be a fun one. Actually, I'm surprised that no one ever really mentioned that at all. What does a hanging body have to do with zombies? I so don't care, it doesn't bother me, it's just an oddity.
Hilarious? Really? You're laughing so hard right now you can't breathe right? Amazing you had the ability to type that while all the hilarity you're enjoying right now.
I'm not the one with the problem, I am trying to figure out why people think it's sexist. There is nothing wrong with it being a gory, dismembered torso. Just because it isn't the most favored of accessories for a game doesn't make it bad. Besides, this comes with a game where the entire goal is to dismember people. I shouldn't have to explain how much violence is in video games and how when there is a situation that calls for blame by influence of video games the entire gaming community rises up calling games "Free expression" and "Art." Let us not be hypocritical here.
It's Level 0, you know why?
Because it has no feets.
yeeeeaaaaah.jpg
If women don't immediately find it offensive without having to be explained why they should be offended, it's not exactly offensive toward women, is it? I don't understand how this is a hard concept to follow.
I need a sexism graph!
No part of feminism or other arguments about sexism or misogyny rely on the fact that women will always be able to see it with unerring accuracy, because that is obviously not true. What is often most insidious about the misogyny inherent in things like this collector's edition statue is that it doesn't look like misogyny - it just looks like a statue. Women are sometimes better than men at seeing stuff like this, but they aren't always better, and certainly no individual woman is any better than any given man, or any other given woman. If you want to play the "oh look a woman agrees with me I must be right" game I'm pretty confident that we can take our thread on the road to normal women and get responses from horrified women that would outnumber urahonky's wife and those like her by a pretty good margin.
Hm.
Your response to the "outside articles explaining it for them" is what really soured me on you. The petulant attitude of "no, you must explain all of sexism to me" is just so ridiculously inimical to communication and understanding that it's impossible to assume that you're anything other than a troll or just not very bright. Sexism, misogyny, and other issues that feminism addresses are older than recorded history, stupendously complex, and difficult to talk about because the culture we live in rests on numerous assumptions that, although untrue, are conducive to forming conclusions that are completely at odds with traditional, accepted, proven feminist arguments. Without at least a bit of effort on the part of any given person to educate themselves about the issues and understand what's going on, they're almost never going to end up believing anything other than what they already came in believing.
So when someone links you some articles, some tiny little baby steps to take on the long road to understanding, some helpful sources of information to try to grasp why decent human beings should have a problem with this statue, you refuse to read them, throw them back in that person's face, and stomp your foot because you only want your information to be delivered in the form of a Penny Arcade forum post. I had half a mind just to copy and paste the articles into a post and only reveal at the end that they were the articles had been linked, but I suspect it would have been useless - between the post where you rejected the articles and the rest of your posts here, I'm pretty sure you've sealed off parts of your world view from questioning, and nothing I nor anyone else can write on an Internet forum is ever going to open those parts of your mind up.
My wife looked at it. Said "Well that is different, I wonder where we would put that?" And then she grabbed her boobs and said "I wonder if mine are bigger?"
To me it symbolizes the despair of the population on this resort and would be appropriate. I also think that they could have easily defended themselves against racism by simply pointing out that suicide is not the same thing as lynching.
The PR staff want to create buzz for Dead Island, I think they knew from the start they were going to create something controversial. After all, as far as violence goes, I think Dead Island takes the cake since I can't think of any other games where you break people's arms with hammers and then laugh maniacally as they flop around. Controversy is actually good for a game like this, the problem, as I said before, is that they had options on the kind of controversy they chose. Their intended controversy was people going "OMG it's a bloody torso, how disgusting!" which is very appropriate for a zombie game, they were caught with their pants down when people reacted to the fact that there's massive titties that are in somewhat pristine condition on an otherwise mutilated torso. It's like that one chick in the Transformers movie looking Victoria Secret perfect in a collapsing building and primping up her makeup. The creepy message here is "mutilate our women all you want, but, for the love of god, leave us their boobies".
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As has been said many times, it is literally, in the most correct usage of the word, reducing women down to a pair of ginormous tits. They are unrealistically proportioned norks, completely unscathed despite the horrendous things that have happened to the rest of their owner. They're not in any way a normal, human pair of breasts, which would go in any way to making this even slightly more reasonable. They are the supposed male ideal of what a woman needs to be packing. It is an idealised male fantasy. Nobody, but nobody is saying "you can't have breasts in a game Burqas for everyone!" but when you take a depiction of a woman as imagined by an undersexed horny adolescent and use it as a collector's item, that is the most literal way society has managed to objectify a woman. It is sexist.
Your logic only makes sense if you think of women as an alien, singular hive mind. If you instead have an understanding of human beings and understand that women are part of that group, your logic looks like that of a bafflingly ignorant goose.
Oh just be quiet already. Since you're such in love with personal story's and people in your own circle, then I'll tell you mine.
I am female.
I saw the statue and I was immediately offended.
Am I a zombie/gore fan? Not at all, hate the stuff, but normally I'm not offended by zombie games and the like because, whatever, I don't care. Just not for me.
As many, many, people have told you it's an insulting example of the glorification of violence against women in media and kinda insulting to gamers in general. (Boobs and gore! WOO!)
And that's not all! My online gaming friends who are female are ALSO offended. CRAZY RIGHT? Gee, we just must be influenced by our male betters or something.
Give me a break.
You two are made for each other!
Funny, I was thinking the same thing. Some people being unaware of an offense because you're saturated with it from birth isn't the same as no offense existing. It's actually almost like you could apply that to people of either gender. Weird!
I am saddened because there is just SO MUCH that they could have done here to make it an awesome Collector's Edition. I have not bought a Collector's Edition for anything since Everquest 1, however if they did something cool enough I would have given this more than half a thought.
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You and I? We're just observers. We didn't create any of this. Don't imply that I did or that my reaction does. And suggesting that my take on this sustains any of what you said is foolish and insulting.
I pointed out something that was funny to me because it was ironic. I didn't close the debate based on a single incident. Chill.
What you and everyone else seem to be missing from my arguments earlier was that I was explaining why I didn't think it was misogynistic. I expected (obviously foolishly) someone else could at least back up their convictions in their own words as I had done. I am not a troll, I'm sure you've seen my posts elsewhere on this forum as I have seen yours. I'm not going to claim to be particularly bright, but I've been told I am by others (anecdotal). I will admit that I am not the foremost authority on misogyny, but you know what? Neither is anyone else here. I have my take on things, others have theirs. If it's so hard to understand that I would want someone to tell me in their words why something is what they claim it to be without resorting to saying "it just is!" then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe I'm a lost cause. I think a lot of people in here are.
For the record: we are probably making a bigger fuss about this than anyone else, anywhere.
Good grief Women, which is it? Are you offended or not? I wish they'd make up their mind.
What is the impact from this? Are the hundreds of thousands of women doing porn every month gonna suddenly stop? Are the masses of women that want to be fashion models being forced into their line of work? Victoria Secret gonna close up shop? Cosplay? Film?
It seems to me that women have no problem showing off their boobs en-mass for money and I don't think it takes a bunch of guys making boob statues or bikini-clad women in video games to nudge them in that direction. This kind of art doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want to and it sure as hell won't stop women from taking advantage of their sexual imagery for profit or gain. The only people who seem to have a problem with it are people that think women are 100% guilt-free from using their bodies for gain. The entire human interaction experience is inherently designed around visual-cues and always will be.
How many people upset about sexism in gaming don't have porn on their computer/mobile/whatever? I would be willing to be the number is closer to 0 than 1.
Look, all I am saying is, yeah I see a pair of boobs. Ok? Boobs exist. Women have them. That statue has them. How big could the effects of that ripple possibly be if those people in the water aren't splashing around while at the same time yelling at everyone not to make waves?
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Are you, really?
Try looking at the sculpt not as a discrete object, connected only to a particular game, but rather as another manifestation of a trend in media including, but not limited to, games that makes entertainment of brutal violence against women who conform to a particular standard of female beauty (i.e. the object of male sexual desire).