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Do you recycle? I don't even have the option. (Also incentivizing "green" behavior)

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Posts

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    shryke wrote: »
    They do look kinda ugly in a few of those pictures, to be honest.

    That said, house aesthetics are built on cultural factors. Cultural factors that can shift going forward.

    This.

    I like the look of PV cells on homes, but that's because I like that people are installing them and want to see more of them.

    The point of those pictures is to show that they're not a huge eye-sore. There is little appreciable difference between the cells and the roof underneath them, certainly not to the extend that SKFM was blowing it up to.

    Those are not "ugly" houses. If you think they are you're a bit silly.

    I disagree strongly. I think they are very noticeable in many cases. I suppose its possible that there are far more solar paneled homes out in the world than I think there are, and that I just don't notice them other than where they are poorly placed or poorly suited, but anytime I notice them, I think they look weird.

    Why do people always seem to put them on the front anyway? Putting them on the back would be less noticeable, since you usually can't get as far away from the back of the house as the front.

    Placement is an issue, sure, I just don't think they're so horrible looking as to hurt sales. I would be more understanding if some great thinker stuck a windmill on their property.

    Idk.

    Hopefully something changes about how we think at some point.

    This is probably the single hardest issue to tackle in greening our lives. Inertia and habit are real and powerful things, so big (or even small) changes in how people do things will meet with resistance. I would bet that if we found a way to make solar shingles that looked like normal shingles, adoption would skyrocket.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    shryke wrote: »
    They do look kinda ugly in a few of those pictures, to be honest.

    That said, house aesthetics are built on cultural factors. Cultural factors that can shift going forward.

    This.

    I like the look of PV cells on homes, but that's because I like that people are installing them and want to see more of them.

    The point of those pictures is to show that they're not a huge eye-sore. There is little appreciable difference between the cells and the roof underneath them, certainly not to the extend that SKFM was blowing it up to.

    Those are not "ugly" houses. If you think they are you're a bit silly.

    I disagree strongly. I think they are very noticeable in many cases. I suppose its possible that there are far more solar paneled homes out in the world than I think there are, and that I just don't notice them other than where they are poorly placed or poorly suited, but anytime I notice them, I think they look weird.

    Why do people always seem to put them on the front anyway? Putting them on the back would be less noticeable, since you usually can't get as far away from the back of the house as the front.

    You should be putting them on whatever side has better southern exposure.

    FWIW, I'm with you, to some extent. I thought in those pictures they were ugly as shit. And they'll only be more so in real life, as the difference in texture between "normal" roof and shiny-ass PV cells gets more striking.

    There does come a point where function has to override aesthetics, though. But I agree the aesthetics on "traditional" home roofs are pretty bad.

    EDIT: Somebody's gonna reply "no u" and that's great, but this is entirely subjective. I'm just saying that "new money weirdos" aren't the only ones that might hold this view.

    mcdermott on
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Personally I would slather the entire top of every house in america if we could. They look fine, shingles are terrible to look at in general. I'd rather see a tin roof. :rotate:

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Doot doo dooo

    I'm just going to leave this here. The link is to a solar panel reseller, but pay attention to the secondary links.

    http://www.sunrunhome.com/solar-for-your-home/guide/advantages/increase-home-value/
    Solar Panels Increase Home Resale Value

    Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory Study
    A new study released in April 2011 by the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory found that solar boosts the resale value of both new and old homes.

    Researchers compared the prices of about 2,000 solar homes sold in California between 2000 and 2009 to those of 70,000 comparable homes without solar panels.

    On average, a home solar system added about $5.50 per watt to a home's resale value. (A 3.1-kilowatt solar system can add around $17,000 to the home's value).
    On existing homes, solar panels increased resale value by more than $6 per watt.
    On new homes with solar pre-installed, solar panels increased resale value by around $2.30 to $2.60 per watt to the sale price.

    ICF Consulting Study
    Another study by ICF Consulting found that saving $1,000 per year on energy costs can add $20,000 to a home's resale value. Because energy savings increase as electricity prices rise, the value of a residential solar system also appreciates over time.
    Solar Panels Help Homes Sell Faster

    According to the U.S. Department of Energy's Office of Energy Efficiency & Renewable Energy, a solar home will sell twice as fast as a home without solar panels – even in depressed markets.

    Shea Homes Case Study
    According to Shea Homes, the home resale value of California solar homes increased 55% while the home value of non-solar homes increased 45% during the same time period.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • DivideByZeroDivideByZero Social Justice Blackguard Registered User regular
    So I was driving through New England this past weekend and couldn't help but notice a ton more wind turbines than here on Long Island, and the solar panel discussion reminded me of all the times a project is floated to put up a wind farm offshore and it's annihilated by NIMBYs who are up in arms that the ocean view from their beachfront properties is going to be RUINED FOREVER.

    I don't know about the rest of you, but I find wind turbines pretty rad to look at. Maybe because the repetitive motion is soothing, maybe it's the fact that I know how much cleaner it is than other forms of energy, maybe it's fond memories of planet Eden from Macross Plus. But I wouldn't mind seeing more of them around.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKERS
  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Personally I would slather the entire top of every house in america if we could. They look fine, shingles are terrible to look at in general. I'd rather see a tin roof. :rotate:

    Hm. I haven't done much research on this topic, but I imagine in northern latitudes you'd be better off with nuclear? Of course, I am biased since nuclear power is probably the best way to provide baseline power production for a grid and are effectively a renewable resource if we weren't really stupid as a people.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
  • Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Blight on Discourse Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    They're photo-voltaic cells! They just sit on your roof!

    2bi3G8Ol.jpg

    So ugly!

    yYj2PRtl.jpg

    What an eyesore!

    IKI77c3l.jpg

    Won't someone please think of the resale values!

    @Melinoe saw the last one from across the room and said "That's a pretty house." :p

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    They're photo-voltaic cells! They just sit on your roof!

    2bi3G8Ol.jpg

    So ugly!

    yYj2PRtl.jpg

    What an eyesore!

    IKI77c3l.jpg

    Won't someone please think of the resale values!

    @Melinoe saw the last one from across the room and said "That's a pretty house." :p

    It is, but the angle and the fact that its a picture so it doesn't show how reflective the panels are really downplay the presence of the panels.

  • MichaelLCMichaelLC In what furnace was thy brain? ChicagoRegistered User regular
    Not gonna say those blend in, but not terrible either. I thought they had to be propped up a lot more - like several feet off the roof. Either just made that up, or designs have changed.

    Driving through southern IL we saw a lot of wind turbines, stretching for miles. Really looked nice; wouldn't have a problem living next to them because I'd have killed myself if I had to live south of Chicago.

    2010-Wind-Farms-Ill-and-Ind-008sm.JPG

  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    MichaelLC wrote: »
    Not gonna say those blend in, but not terrible either. I thought they had to be propped up a lot more - like several feet off the roof. Either just made that up, or designs have changed.

    Driving through southern IL we saw a lot of wind turbines, stretching for miles. Really looked nice; wouldn't have a problem living next to them because I'd have killed myself if I had to live south of Chicago.

    2010-Wind-Farms-Ill-and-Ind-008sm.JPG

    I wouldn't want to live next to a wind turbine, they're actually really loud and the constant flickering shadow from the blades passing in front of windows can drive people crazy. If you're in the middle of nowhere and can stick them away from your house, they're great, but they can actually effect living conditions negatively if they're too close, unlike solar.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    We've got some wind farms set up here in Iowa, but we happen to have plenty of open land where no one is living.

  • MichaelLCMichaelLC In what furnace was thy brain? ChicagoRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    We've got some wind farms set up here in Iowa, but we happen to have plenty of open land where no one is living.

    I don't know if anyone was living exactly, but the ones we went past seemed pretty close to farms. Thought it was interesting to see some whirling around while others were completely still.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    They used to be much worse on the eyes, but now you wouldn't notice them anymore than you would a metal roof or a white roof (all roofs should be white, btw).

    Lh96QHG.png
  • GethGeth Legion Perseus VeilRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    This unit recycles.

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    They used to be much worse on the eyes, but now you wouldn't notice them anymore than you would a metal roof or a white roof (all roofs should be white, btw).

    You need a very specific style of house to pull off a white or metal roof though. You don't just drop those onto a center hall colonial or Victorian or something. . .

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    They used to be much worse on the eyes, but now you wouldn't notice them anymore than you would a metal roof or a white roof (all roofs should be white, btw).

    You need a very specific style of house to pull off a white or metal roof though. You don't just drop those onto a center hall colonial or Victorian or something. . .

    Sure, but you can make those roofs more reflective still. That's more advice for larger buildings like office parks and apartment complexes.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    They used to be much worse on the eyes, but now you wouldn't notice them anymore than you would a metal roof or a white roof (all roofs should be white, btw).

    You need a very specific style of house to pull off a white or metal roof though. You don't just drop those onto a center hall colonial or Victorian or something. . .

    Sure, but you can make those roofs more reflective still. That's more advice for larger buildings like office parks and apartment complexes.

    That I agree with. I would like to see more commercial buildings with solar for sure. Especially all glass buildings (it can help offset the no doubt insane a/c usage in those buildings).

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    I think the next 20 years of solar tech is going to be pretty cool, from both a green and a Science! perspective.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    And it pisses me off that America isn't gettin' in on the ground floor in a big way.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • MichaelLCMichaelLC In what furnace was thy brain? ChicagoRegistered User regular
    Well, we get less sun than Germany so no point really.

    WARNING: Fox News.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    MichaelLC wrote: »
    Well, we get less sun than Germany so no point really.

    WARNING: Fox News.

    I saw that. I love that the best areas for sun in Germany are equivalent to Seattle.

    People also forget that PV panels run on light, not heat. Just because a climate isn't warm doesn't mean it doesn't get light.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I think the next 20 years of solar tech is going to be pretty cool, from both a green and a Science! perspective.

    Hey man, it can't happen, cause you know, Solyndra!!!!

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2013
    This is probably the single hardest issue to tackle in greening our lives. Inertia and habit are real and powerful things, so big (or even small) changes in how people do things will meet with resistance.

    Resistance to X isn't justifiable if the sole basis for the resistance is "that's not how I acted in the past."

    I'll agree that change is difficult. Where I think we disagree is that you seem to think avoiding the change to X because "X is difficult" excuses you from doing X.

    Edit: Also, I'm the position of a few others who don't have recycling pickup at my home, so I drive my recycling to a local recycling center.

    _J_ on
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    They used to be much worse on the eyes, but now you wouldn't notice them anymore than you would a metal roof or a white roof (all roofs should be white, btw).

    You need a very specific style of house to pull off a white or metal roof though. You don't just drop those onto a center hall colonial or Victorian or something. . .

    According to your already proven-to-be compartmentalized taste, perhaps. I'm sure it's entirely possible to do, and designers would probably be able to do it, too, if home buyers weren't stuck in tradition so much.

    DarkPrimus on
  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    They used to be much worse on the eyes, but now you wouldn't notice them anymore than you would a metal roof or a white roof (all roofs should be white, btw).

    You need a very specific style of house to pull off a white or metal roof though. You don't just drop those onto a center hall colonial or Victorian or something. . .

    According to your already proven-to-be compartmentalized taste, perhaps. I'm sure it's entirely possible to do, and designers would probably be able to do it, too, if home buyers weren't stuck in tradition so much.

    The bolder is the whole point. Obviously you can physically place a metal, white or solar roof on nearly any home, but people expect certain aesthetics. If people did not care how their homes looked, I'm sure that we could come up with much more practical designs.

  • MichaelLCMichaelLC In what furnace was thy brain? ChicagoRegistered User regular
    If people did not care how their homes looked, I'm sure that we could come up with much more practical designs.

    house-on-the-rock-13%20-%20Copy.jpg

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    This is probably the single hardest issue to tackle in greening our lives. Inertia and habit are real and powerful things, so big (or even small) changes in how people do things will meet with resistance.

    Resistance to X isn't justifiable if the sole basis for the resistance is "that's not how I acted in the past."

    I'll agree that change is difficult. Where I think we disagree is that you seem to think avoiding the change to X because "X is difficult" excuses you from doing X.

    Edit: Also, I'm the position of a few others who don't have recycling pickup at my home, so I drive my recycling to a local recycling center.

    I think that something being difficult is an excellent reason not to do it, all things being equal. If you care enough to do it anyway, great, but I think that, as a general matter, acting like soneone's aversion to change is just contemptible and should be ignored is counter productive. Better to find ways to make it easier for people to change in ways that you want then to then to yell at them for not making the hard decisions you'd prefer that they make.

    For example, energy star appliances have been a great success, because there basically is no trade off. By contrast, people were slow to adopt efficient light bulbs because they were more expensive and worse than incandescent bulbs. Now ccfls come in more types, look more normal, and some work with dimmers, and adoption seems to be improving. Even better, people don't seem to be grumbling much about the bans on incandesents now, but I suspect that 5 years ago that would have gone very differently.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Nothing worth doing is easy, Space.

    That is a terrible thought for an adult.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    This is probably the single hardest issue to tackle in greening our lives. Inertia and habit are real and powerful things, so big (or even small) changes in how people do things will meet with resistance.

    Resistance to X isn't justifiable if the sole basis for the resistance is "that's not how I acted in the past."

    I'll agree that change is difficult. Where I think we disagree is that you seem to think avoiding the change to X because "X is difficult" excuses you from doing X.

    Edit: Also, I'm the position of a few others who don't have recycling pickup at my home, so I drive my recycling to a local recycling center.

    I think that something being difficult is an excellent reason not to do it, all things being equal. If you care enough to do it anyway, great, but I think that, as a general matter, acting like soneone's aversion to change is just contemptible and should be ignored is counter productive. Better to find ways to make it easier for people to change in ways that you want then to then to yell at them for not making the hard decisions you'd prefer that they make.

    For example, energy star appliances have been a great success, because there basically is no trade off. By contrast, people were slow to adopt efficient light bulbs because they were more expensive and worse than incandescent bulbs. Now ccfls come in more types, look more normal, and some work with dimmers, and adoption seems to be improving. Even better, people don't seem to be grumbling much about the bans on incandesents now, but I suspect that 5 years ago that would have gone very differently.

    List of things that are difficult:
    1) Designing a functional sky crane for a Mars rover.
    2) Curing cancer.
    3) Enacting gun-control legislation in the U.S.

    List of things that are not difficult:
    1) Collecting your glass jars in a plastic bag, and driving 10 miles to the recycling collection bins once a month to deposit your glass jars.
    2) Masturbating


    If you can't be troubled to sort your glass and plastic, and make one trip to a recycling place once a month? That's a degree of laziness that deserves a fucking prize.

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Nothing worth doing is easy, Space.

    That is a terrible thought for an adult.

    No, some things are and some are not. Making ccfls not terrible was hard, but thanks to that hard work by a few, the masses can do something good that is easy. Similarly, coming up with single stream recycling was probably hard, but now people don't have to put much work into recycling so more people do it. I would say that was better than demanding everyone put more individual work into recycling. The people who care enough about change are the ones that should be putting in the effort to make it an easy choice for those who don't care much, IMO.

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    The people who care enough about change are the ones that should be putting in the effort to make it an easy choice for those who don't care much, IMO.

    Do you honestly not perceive a problem in this thought?

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Nothing worth doing is easy, Space.

    That is a terrible thought for an adult.

    No, some things are and some are not. Making ccfls not terrible was hard, but thanks to that hard work by a few, the masses can do something good that is easy. Similarly, coming up with single stream recycling was probably hard, but now people don't have to put much work into recycling so more people do it. I would say that was better than demanding everyone put more individual work into recycling. The people who care enough about change are the ones that should be putting in the effort to make it an easy choice for those who don't care much, IMO.

    "Fuck it, someone else take care of this" is the perfect epitaph for your generation.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    What the US really should do is pass legislation at the federal level making approval automatic for installation of solar facilities of certain pre-approved types in all residential buildings, so (sorry SKFM) people like SKFM can't say 'not in my back yard' to it and have their HOA's ban the installation. The only house/building which shouldn't have solar panels is...

    i) My house's roof would collapse if I put solar panels on it
    ii) I live in a historic building
    iii) For some reason, I don't want solar

    We should also make all roofing material which isn't high albedo illegal for new buildings. It's completely insane to see new houses going up with black roofs and people being unable to get planing permission for solar panels. Solar panels (or solar water heating) is pretty much a universal good. Add high albedo roofs and suddenly we'd be using little to no energy in our homes and we'd be powering all the light industry and office buildings in the city with solar power from the city while using power plants as a backup.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    The people who care enough about change are the ones that should be putting in the effort to make it an easy choice for those who don't care much, IMO.

    Do you honestly not perceive a problem in this thought?

    I think it is a very pragmatic statement, but I'm a pragmatic guy. I think that whenever "this is good for society" and "people don't want to do this" collide, the right answer is to find a way to change the latter. I generally am big on legislative solutions, but where they are not available, I think the best solution is to find ways to make the desirable course of action more palatable to those who don't like it.

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Nothing worth doing is easy, Space.

    That is a terrible thought for an adult.

    No, some things are and some are not. Making ccfls not terrible was hard, but thanks to that hard work by a few, the masses can do something good that is easy. Similarly, coming up with single stream recycling was probably hard, but now people don't have to put much work into recycling so more people do it. I would say that was better than demanding everyone put more individual work into recycling. The people who care enough about change are the ones that should be putting in the effort to make it an easy choice for those who don't care much, IMO.

    "Fuck it, someone else take care of this" is the perfect epitaph for your generation.

    I'm pretty sure we're in the same generation. And I don't think that getting mad at people for not wanting to change is productive. See my lightbulb example.

    What is the problem with dark roofs? For most existing homes, that is just what looks best.


  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    There are areas where high albedo roofs would possibly do more harm then good. A black roof is actually an asset for a good chunk of the year up here. Of course the insulation in homes tends to be a lot better here out of necessity so the roofing material probably isn't really a huge factor in homes to begin with.

    For the majority of the country I absolutely agree though.

  • rockrngerrockrnger Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    1) solar panels are sweet as sweet and look awesome and everyone who thinks otherwise is dumb.

    2) Micro generation is so far down the list of things things we should be worried about it isn't even funny. Right now we need to be concentrating on bring old buildings up current efficiently standards. The return on investment for insulation and newer furnaces is orders of magnitude better than solar panels and has the added bonus of helping poor people instead of the rich.

    Long story short: let the early adopters and researchers have another decade or so to work on micro generation and put money where the most benifit is.

    rockrnger on
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2013
    _J_ wrote: »
    The people who care enough about change are the ones that should be putting in the effort to make it an easy choice for those who don't care much, IMO.

    Do you honestly not perceive a problem in this thought?

    I think it is a very pragmatic statement, but I'm a pragmatic guy. I think that whenever "this is good for society" and "people don't want to do this" collide, the right answer is to find a way to change the latter. I generally am big on legislative solutions, but where they are not available, I think the best solution is to find ways to make the desirable course of action more palatable to those who don't like it.

    I guess my question is...why are you unwilling to do relatively easy things that are good for society?

    Collecting glass and plastic in separate trash bags, and driving them to recycling centers, is incredibly not difficult. It really just seems like laziness, to me. Laziness that you've justified, to yourself, by placing the blame in other people not making the process easier, for you.

    So, laziness and narcissism, I guess.

    Because, again, driving your recycling to a recycling center, after collecting it, is the opposite of difficult.

    Edit: I mean, honestly. When your position is, basically, "Why won't other people make recycling more palatable for me?" how do you not punch yourself in the cock for thinking that? Unless your ego has reached the point where it's eating itself...

    _J_ on
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Nothing worth doing is easy, Space.

    That is a terrible thought for an adult.

    No, some things are and some are not. Making ccfls not terrible was hard, but thanks to that hard work by a few, the masses can do something good that is easy. Similarly, coming up with single stream recycling was probably hard, but now people don't have to put much work into recycling so more people do it. I would say that was better than demanding everyone put more individual work into recycling. The people who care enough about change are the ones that should be putting in the effort to make it an easy choice for those who don't care much, IMO.

    "Fuck it, someone else take care of this" is the perfect epitaph for your generation.

    I'm pretty sure we're in the same generation. And I don't think that getting mad at people for not wanting to change is productive. See my lightbulb example.

    What is the problem with dark roofs? For most existing homes, that is just what looks best.


    No, don't change the subject (I believe you're Gen X, no?). The attitude "let the people who care bother with it, it's too hard for me to care" is terrible.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Nothing worth doing is easy, Space.

    That is a terrible thought for an adult.

    No, some things are and some are not. Making ccfls not terrible was hard, but thanks to that hard work by a few, the masses can do something good that is easy. Similarly, coming up with single stream recycling was probably hard, but now people don't have to put much work into recycling so more people do it. I would say that was better than demanding everyone put more individual work into recycling. The people who care enough about change are the ones that should be putting in the effort to make it an easy choice for those who don't care much, IMO.

    "Fuck it, someone else take care of this" is the perfect epitaph for your generation.

    I'm pretty sure we're in the same generation. And I don't think that getting mad at people for not wanting to change is productive. See my lightbulb example.

    What is the problem with dark roofs? For most existing homes, that is just what looks best.


    No, don't change the subject (I believe you're Gen X, no?). The attitude "let the people who care bother with it, it's too hard for me to care" is terrible.

    Especially given that the action under consideration is not, in fact, hard, or difficult, in any sense.

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