Alright I'm done arguing but before I bow down to something people obviously do not share or understand the concern then I'll slap it out right now.
1. To the statement regarding 'normal people don't notice it as much', first off that's because those "normal" people more than likely play on a 66tick server all the time. They have more than likely never experienced the difference between a 66tick or a 100tick. Hell, half of them probably don't know what console is let alone net_graph.
2. 66tick servers are why Counter-strike gets the title "random-strike". Because your shots don't land where you fire them. Ever go into a pub, and shoot on someones head and say "It's right on his head!" after wasting your whole clip? Thank 66tick servers for that. The only reason the "whiners" and "pros" complain so much is because we just address the problems ahead of time and thus updates, patches, or whatever you want to call them come out to address such bugs and fixes.
I'm not saying it's only competitive gamers who contribute, Pubbers do their job as well. Like look at the Radar fix or Quick Scope updates last year just prior and post PAX. Those were contributed by the mass, not Competitive players so don't get me wrong when I say competitive gamers are helping make games take strides.
3. What I meant as "audience" was that group of people standing behind my pug last year and the year prior watching us win in the finals. Those are the people interested and those are the people I'm in this for. If they see something I do and it helps them get better at the game, then I'm happier than anyone could be. I love to give lessons and help anyone I can as long as they have the ambition and motivation to get better. I coached a team after they got out of CAL-Open (Just barely) and instead of flopping in Main, I helped them break even and help learn to get better.
4. I understand LAG seems to be an issue with a lot of game. In CSS it's become much less of an issues unless the differences are me having 100 ping and someone else having 10 ping. It all comes down to the quality of a server. I play on New York, Virginia, Illinois, Georgia servers a lot of the time for practice. Then I play matches on a server in Dallas or Chicago. I don't care about ping difference as much as I care about the servers quality.
Also, is this server company doing this as a favor out of their heart or did they actually plan to try and market themselves for donating hundred to thousands of dollars of time and equipment to PAX? If they didn't plan on marketing themselves then I can see your opinion as right, but if they planning to then I can say your server sponsor will not want to work hard and then hear "these servers suck" and not gain anything from it. In all honesty, sponsors want publicity and large events like this benefit them when they want customers.
I say if you can address problems ahead of time, then that server company will be much more grateful when their client list increases after the event. Not sit at a stand still, or even worse, hear gossip or rude comments about the quality of their hard work when it could have been solved weeks prior to the event...
While I agree with most of what you say, pNo, the servers are provided by Intel, so they're certainly not a company looking for an increase in clientèle. And, really, people aren't likely to be complaining about Intel's product quality because a CS server wasn't as nice as it could've been. (Other than that, though, agreed.)
1. To the statement regarding 'normal people don't notice it as much', first off that's because those "normal" people more than likely play on a 66tick server all the time. They have more than likely never experienced the difference between a 66tick or a 100tick. Hell, half of them probably don't know what console is let alone net_graph.
Okay, so I think we can find some means to agree up until this point. If you were making decisions that would appeal to the normal peole rather than the "pro-gamers", at this point you would not see a significant advantage to running the tournament at 100 tick, because the majority of people won't notice any problem at 66 tick.
So far we're on the same page?
I say if you can address problems ahead of time, then that server company will be much more grateful when their client list increases after the event. Not sit at a stand still, or even worse, hear gossip or rude comments about the quality of their hard work when it could have been solved weeks prior to the event...
The tournaments are a small part of PAX PC. We're going to have almost 700 computers on this network. We'll have 160 total players in the CSS tournament, and the most players we'll ever have at once will be 80.
I don't know the final count on what we have yet, but just for giggles lets assume we've got about 6 machines not including the web server, not including the ventrilo servers, and not including the ftp server. Now lets say we can run either 4 servers on each machine at 100 tick, or 8 servers per machine on 66 tick.
We'll need 16 servers total, which means we're choosing between 2 dedicated and 4 dedicated.
What do you think will impress "normal" people the most. The higher tick rate with only 2 dedicated machines used for dedicated servers supplying games for the remaining 620 computers on the network, or a tick rate that's perfectly acceptable to 90% of our audience with 4 other machines all sporting dedicated servers for the remaining 620 computers on the network?
I understand you disagree with our conclusion, but I would hope you can at least see the reasoning.
1. To the statement regarding 'normal people don't notice it as much', first off that's because those "normal" people more than likely play on a 66tick server all the time. They have more than likely never experienced the difference between a 66tick or a 100tick. Hell, half of them probably don't know what console is let alone net_graph.
Okay, so I think we can find some means to agree up until this point. If you were making decisions that would appeal to the normal peole rather than the "pro-gamers", at this point you would not see a significant advantage to running the tournament at 100 tick, because the majority of people won't notice any problem at 66 tick.
So far we're on the same page?
I say if you can address problems ahead of time, then that server company will be much more grateful when their client list increases after the event. Not sit at a stand still, or even worse, hear gossip or rude comments about the quality of their hard work when it could have been solved weeks prior to the event...
The tournaments are a small part of PAX PC. We're going to have almost 700 computers on this network. We'll have 160 total players in the CSS tournament, and the most players we'll ever have at once will be 80.
I don't know the final count on what we have yet, but just for giggles lets assume we've got about 6 machines not including the web server, not including the ventrilo servers, and not including the ftp server. Now lets say we can run either 4 servers on each machine at 100 tick, or 8 servers per machine on 66 tick.
We'll need 16 servers total, which means we're choosing between 2 dedicated and 4 dedicated.
What do you think will impress "normal" people the most. The higher tick rate with only 2 dedicated machines used for dedicated servers supplying games for the remaining 620 computers on the network, or a tick rate that's perfectly acceptable to 90% of our audience with 4 other machines all sporting dedicated servers for the remaining 620 computers on the network?
I understand you disagree with our conclusion, but I would hope you can at least see the reasoning.
I do agree with you Dave, but from what I see it sounds as if you guys are belittling your own equipment. Just the other day I had a team mate in Portland, Oregon host a 100tick server off his own computer. It was running at 100tick, we had 5 people total connected to the server (1 being himself) and it did not have a problem with tick. It only dropped in gun-fights and he_grenades going off from 100 to 90.
If these servers are provided by Intel then I am almost 100% confident you can run a lot more servers off your boxes than what you guys think you could. My guess is the server boxes have anywhere from 4GB-8GB of RAM, 3.0 Dual-processor Xeons or some other sort dual-core/dual-processing set-ups with a strong gigabit NIC. I honestly think you guys can run the necessary servers at 100tick.
If not, the harm is going to exactly what you expected (66tick) but I'd at least like the fact that you guys entertained the idea by setting them at 100tick and letting them drop to 66tick in gun-fights and nades being thrown.
Can this happen? Just set-up servers for 100tick and if the servers drop, they drop and simply it's the same quality, temporarily, as you guys expected, but at least the first shot will be accurate.
I think there isnt many people who care about the 100tick thing.
i played competetivly for a long time and I dont care. the beter team will win in the end so lets just have fun and get off these admins backs.
CSS isnt even the most exactly perfected game, most pros went back to 1.6 - not that there are any pro going anyway
What leagues did you play in then? Because 100tick has been a big deal since before I even started Source.
And I don't want to nit pick your whole post but frankly that statement is not true. Complexity, Evil Geniuses, Team 3D, Pandemic, United5, Jax Money Crew, and more have decided to stay playing Source Full-time. coL, EG, 3D, Pandemic, and jMc are all CGS teams now (Meaning they make big money playing this game) and have signed 2 season contracts meaning they will be competing for a long time. The 1.6 scene in the US has gone to near nothing since those teams have switched, the only dominant force in 1.6 is the UK scene with Pentagram Gshock, NiP (Otherwise known as SK), and a few other power-house Euro teams that escape my memory at the moment.
Like I said, I'm not pointing an insult at you, I'm just pointing out the flawed statement in your post.
I say next year CS gets dumped in favor of a newer team based FPS (quakewars? TF2? Crysis? farcry2?).
CS people bitch too much.
This has always been the case ever since CS became popular.
It's also the most popular game in the world outside of WoW. Recently, CoD 2 has roughly equalled CS:S in Xfire minutes, but counting 1.6, it's got a leg up. It's a good tournament game, it's got better teamplay than anything else out there right now (strategy and teamwork are by far the most important things in CS:S -- a bad team with great shots will have nothing on a team with decent shots and great teamwork), and, frankly, the reason the CS community "bitches" so much is that we actually put thought into our game in ways OTHER than finding glitches (again, see BF2, where competitive play is all about who can find the best glitches). Now, I'm not saying that the community doesn't suck sometimes -- but when you've got a huge community, of course you're going to see a lot of whiners. But, go ahead, ask Ghrog which community is more mature -- UT or CS. Go play America's Army or Call of Duty (1 or 2). Worse communities than CS:S -- not as many whiners, but, by far, more arrogant players. DoD:S isn't too bad, but they're also resistant to, you know, having fun -- that, and most of the players are "too old" for LAN parties and the like.
Honestly, there's not a better game out there for a tournament right now. It attracts the biggest audience, and the vast majority of CS players are great people. What you perceive as whining is, for the most part, our resistance to people trying to push in on our community from the outside. We've been playing this game for a long time, and we know how it works. When people who rarely play the game come around and say, "You don't need to do that," and we know better, we don't like it. Let me see if I can find a good analogue for you.
I play golf a few times a year. Now, in golf, there's this concept (which is actually a physics) of the "coefficient of restitution." In other words, how much energy something maintains after impacting a solid surface. For some time, the limit was, IIRC, .81 in the US and Canada (governed by the USGA). In the rest of the world, however (governed by the R&A) it was higher. It was a pretty significant argument about which was better for a while -- regular golfers didn't much care, though, and used whatever clubs they wanted, even above the limit at US courses. Do you think it would have been received well if they'd just waltzed into the PGA offices and said, "Hey, guys, we're going to decide this for you -- no more limit on CoR"? I doubt it.
Or, if that doesn't work for you, think of something similar.
Now, I do understand that this tournament is going to be for fun, just like golfing at a muni (look it up). It's not a PGA tourney. It's not CAL or CPL. That's why I don't mind 66-tick -- it's a sort of compromise between not caring at all and having pro standards. As long as we aren't 33-tick -- because then it IS a joke -- I'm fine with it.
I would argue your claim that CS takes more teamwork than any other game. I would cite Bf2 as an example of a game I feel takes more team coordination. In CS you have set objectives, you run your play as in a football game and then you huddle up and change what needs to be changed. Obviously that takes teamwork. In BF2 there is no time, every strategy change must be on the fly. Switching from offence to defence over multiple flags.
The support classes can also be used to argue for BF2: engineer, support, and medic. As an extremely extreme example, take an awesome infantry man in CS. Runs off by himself into a group of 4 or 5 enemies, takes out 3 before dying. He's given his team a significant 2 man advantage. The same thing happens in BF2, he takes out 3 and then dies. Everyone gets revived and the only thing that has changed is he lost his team a ticket.
This isn't a Bf2 vs CS arguement, more of a CS requires more teamwork then any other game counter-arguement (ie. give me an awp and I will single handedly kill there entire team on aztec)
Aztec is not a map used in competition for precisely that reason. In CS, sure, one person can kill an entire team. It rarely happens. Not once a match, not once every two matches. Every 3-4 matches it happens. Most of the maps used in competition require precise teamwork. In CS, you have to know your teammate has your back at all times. On cpl_mill, if your smokes and flashes aren't timed perfectly, you lose. You may think there are set objectives and that there are strategies that are followed through on, but you'd be wrong -- sure, the objective is there, and once in a while strats work out. But, far more often, strats break down and you have to think on your feet -- as a team, without time to plan, often without time even to communicate. If each member of your team is not working flawlessly in this period, you will lose. Even when strats do work, they involve working as a team with great precision -- on Dust 2, you step out of B tunnels in twos, one person checks left, one checks back of site (maybe throws a grenade) then dives right to check door and box.
Maybe it's just that I haven't played BF2 competitively, but it seems far less precise than CS.
Any info on the shadowrun tournament? How does it last 3 days? Brackets? Teams? i know it is pc vrs box but more information or a link to more info.....
Any info on the shadowrun tournament? How does it last 3 days? Brackets? Teams? i know it is pc vrs box but more information or a link to more info.....
Its more of a contest than an actual tournament. Im not even sure there is going to be brackets, just a show up and play if you think you are good.
I say next year CS gets dumped in favor of a newer team based FPS (quakewars? TF2? Crysis? farcry2?).
CS people bitch too much.
This has always been the case ever since CS became popular.
You see it as bitching, I see it as proper planning so no complaints are to be had during the event.
Thanks for calling me a bitch though, jack ass.
I didnt call you specifically a bitch.
The way I said it in that context was that cs people complain too much, Saying someone is bitching and calling someone a bitch are 2 different things.
Every single Lan tournament I have ever seen that has cs, always has the "pro" people come in and start asking questions, then complain that things aren't up to their "standards" and try to get things changed, despite the vast majority just wanting to have fun. Happens at every major Lan that has a huge cs tournament.
You saying you cant play on a more level playing field with average gamers?
So why are people still talking about this anyway?
Dave set forth what is being used in the cs tourney, attend pax, sign up for tourney, live with it, and have fun.
Remember, these tourney's arent geared toward "pro" things like CAL and whatnot, geared toward the casual people. If you want the Pro stuff, go to a CAL type thing.
I say next year CS gets dumped in favor of a newer team based FPS (quakewars? TF2? Crysis? farcry2?).
CS people bitch too much.
This has always been the case ever since CS became popular.
You see it as bitching, I see it as proper planning so no complaints are to be had during the event.
Thanks for calling me a bitch though, jack ass.
I didnt call you specifically a bitch.
The way I said it in that context was that cs people complain too much, Saying someone is bitching and calling someone a bitch are 2 different things.
Every single Lan tournament I have ever seen that has cs, always has the "pro" people come in and start asking questions, then complain that things aren't up to their "standards" and try to get things changed, despite the vast majority just wanting to have fun. Happens at every major Lan that has a huge cs tournament.
You saying you cant play on a more level playing field with average gamers?
See, that's where we take issue -- a "level playing field" does not mean a server not up to CAL/CPL standards. Giving a handicap to worse players is NOT a level playing field. It does equalize skill level to some extent, but if all the bad players in baseball took steroids and none of the good ones did, would that be okay, just because it was to equalize skill level? Would that be a "level playing field"?
Again, I'm okay with 66-tick. I don't think it's a huge issue. There are more important things to discuss, really.
I say next year CS gets dumped in favor of a newer team based FPS (quakewars? TF2? Crysis? farcry2?).
CS people bitch too much.
This has always been the case ever since CS became popular.
No shit. All this CS bitching is totally screwing up this thread, and it's sooooooooo boring. So you are going to get 5 headshots in a round instead of 9, big deal...
So why are people still talking about this anyway?
Dave set forth what is being used in the cs tourney, attend pax, sign up for tourney, live with it, and have fun.
Remember, these tourney's arent geared toward "pro" things like CAL and whatnot, geared toward the casual people. If you want the Pro stuff, go to a CAL type thing.
LETS TALK ABOUT SOME OTHER AWESOMER GAMES!
can you have the world in conflict discs/download ready for us the moment your inside? as well as several practice servers that have the CSS line up at 5 person teams 10 person max?
can you have the world in conflict discs/download ready for us the moment your inside? as well as several practice servers that have the CSS line up at 5 person teams 10 person max?
The short answer is "yes".
The long answer is "yes, assuming there is a demo available (I'm 97% sure there will be), and assuming we don't have unforseeable difficulties with the network and/or ftp server (97% sure there won't be)."
Any info on the shadowrun tournament? How does it last 3 days? Brackets? Teams? i know it is pc vrs box but more information or a link to more info.....
It's not so much a tournament as it is a grudge match with consolers.
There will be 3 events (byoc schedule only included two, but we added a third on Friday and I'll update that right now), and each event will be it's own individual unique battle. Although technically, each night will have two battles.
We'll be playing two 6v6 matches at a time, and dedicating an hour to it each day (roughly 30 minutes of random play, gathering people, and getting everything running smoothly....then the two parallel 30 minute matches).
They'll take place 7:00pm on Friday and Saturday, and 2:00pm on Saturday.
Goo call on the 3% unforseen difficulties, its a lan, you never know what fun things are going to happen. I've heard of something called the penny arcade expo outside of the computer room. Pretty sure BYOC is going to wreck these tourneys anyways in terms of fun.
How are sign ups going to be handled for the WiC tournament? Ive been playing the Open Beta for it and love the game, and would love to participate in the tournament, but with it limited to 16 teams, it looks like space will be a premium, and I don't know anyone else who is going to put together a 5 man team.
Tournament Registration will start Friday at 2:00pm south of the pc room, at the PC Tournament area.
They will go fast, there will probably be a line for tournament registration that starts before 2:00 although I can't speculate how early the line will form, nor how long it will take to fill up the tournament.
If you don't get in then, make sure you're around the pc area before the tournament begins to fill any no-show spots.
Any info on the shadowrun tournament? How does it last 3 days? Brackets? Teams? i know it is pc vrs box but more information or a link to more info.....
It's not so much a tournament as it is a grudge match with consolers.
There will be 3 events (byoc schedule only included two, but we added a third on Friday and I'll update that right now), and each event will be it's own individual unique battle. Although technically, each night will have two battles.
We'll be playing two 6v6 matches at a time, and dedicating an hour to it each day (roughly 30 minutes of random play, gathering people, and getting everything running smoothly....then the two parallel 30 minute matches).
They'll take place 7:00pm on Friday and Saturday, and 2:00pm on Saturday.
Also, I'll have a 4v4 Console vs PC Shadowrun demo up at the ASTRO Gaming booth. Prizes for winning a match, and winning three matches in a row.
I know that it's not 6v6, but that's what we had room for, so you can get a little more practice in if you'd like.
oh. well i look forward to being the 16 year old winning all the shadowrun games when i have time. this is my first PAX so i wont spend it all playing games i have. But ive played shadowrun since its release date n im ready.
Uh oh. Can I assume based on your title that you've been playing the console version as opposed to the pc version?
*cringe*
Boy, you know, I'm sure you're going to be busy doing OTHER things during the PC vs Console showdowns. Because, you know, there's just so much other stuff, you don't want to waste your pax time getting beat down by my pc brothers and sisters. Right?
I'll deal if you guys dont' want to at least have good servers. Just means I'm going to be called a noob when I awp the hell out of everyone at this tournament...
I'll deal if you guys dont' want to at least have good servers. Just means I'm going to be called a noob when I awp the hell out of everyone at this tournament...
The servers are fine, we are just doing settings that will be best for everyone and not the "pro" minority
i know it'd be a hassle, but i can't help but wishing you guys would run two separate CS:S tournies
one for the pro people who bitch and come in with CAL level teams and just rock everybody else
and other teams for the casual players, people who by themselves looking for groups, etc
obviously it's a tournament, but with the amount you guys spend saying "oh this is just casual, we're just in it to have fun", and then having teams who've played nationally and shit... not very casual, heh.
Xenocide Geek on
i wanted love, i needed love
most of all, most of all
someone said true love was dead
but i'm bound to fall
bound to fall for you
oh what can i do
Tournament Registration will start Friday at 2:00pm south of the pc room, at the PC Tournament area.
They will go fast, there will probably be a line for tournament registration that starts before 2:00 although I can't speculate how early the line will form, nor how long it will take to fill up the tournament.
If you don't get in then, make sure you're around the pc area before the tournament begins to fill any no-show spots.
question: Will the BYOCers be able to get in line for tourney registration before everyone else, since we will be dropping our stuff off around 10am? It would be a nice perk to be able to get our registration done early or at least quickly.
Haha Disco you are right. I do play the box vrsin but from my 2 1/2 months of experience on shadowrun, alot of the pc gamers like the box controls as opposed to the pc controls, because ont he pc it is hard to shoot, run, teleport and lay down a healing tree at the same time. but on the box... it is just so easy. Shadowrun is no ordianry shooter. it invvles more hands than pc gamers can provide, but the box controllersmake it so much easier.
i know it'd be a hassle, but i can't help but wishing you guys would run two separate CS:S tournies
one for the pro people who bitch and come in with CAL level teams and just rock everybody else
and other teams for the casual players, people who by themselves looking for groups, etc
obviously it's a tournament, but with the amount you guys spend saying "oh this is just casual, we're just in it to have fun", and then having teams who've played nationally and shit... not very casual, heh.
Nobody who has competed "nationally" will be there. Most of the "good" teams at PAX are primarily pubbers with some CAL experience. Personally, I played CAL, but I enjoy pubs more, and just don't have time for that. And, while I played CAL-M, most of the people who will be the "pro" players at PAX have played CAL-O at the highest. That's a league where anyone at all can join.
Honestly, have fun, even if you get worked. It's a game, guys, remember that. One of my intentions at PAX may be to win (or do well, at least) in the CS:S tourney, yes, but that's because I want to have fun. If you intend to have fun rather than to win, you'll enjoy the tourney, whatever the case. The fun thing about tournaments is that you get to play in a different way than on a pub. You get to go slow, take your time, have teamwork. You don't just run around and shoot at things. It's a rewarding experience, however you do.
i know it'd be a hassle, but i can't help but wishing you guys would run two separate CS:S tournies
one for the pro people who bitch and come in with CAL level teams and just rock everybody else
and other teams for the casual players, people who by themselves looking for groups, etc
obviously it's a tournament, but with the amount you guys spend saying "oh this is just casual, we're just in it to have fun", and then having teams who've played nationally and shit... not very casual, heh.
Nobody who has competed "nationally" will be there. Most of the "good" teams at PAX are primarily pubbers with some CAL experience. Personally, I played CAL, but I enjoy pubs more, and just don't have time for that. And, while I played CAL-M, most of the people who will be the "pro" players at PAX have played CAL-O at the highest. That's a league where anyone at all can join.
Honestly, have fun, even if you get worked. It's a game, guys, remember that. One of my intentions at PAX may be to win (or do well, at least) in the CS:S tourney, yes, but that's because I want to have fun. If you intend to have fun rather than to win, you'll enjoy the tourney, whatever the case. The fun thing about tournaments is that you get to play in a different way than on a pub. You get to go slow, take your time, have teamwork. You don't just run around and shoot at things. It's a rewarding experience, however you do.
maybe not this year nobody really fucking good has competed
but the first year i went to PAX i talked to a few guys who said they'd done shit high up, and that they were there with a team
maybe he was lieing, but that's what i'm basing this off of.
Xenocide Geek on
i wanted love, i needed love
most of all, most of all
someone said true love was dead
but i'm bound to fall
bound to fall for you
oh what can i do
So... you are saying, instead of game variety we should just focus on CS?
Yeah... that sounds fun [/scarasim]
Sorry but I would rather see we have the latest and greatest games every year rather than doing a game from a previous year. With tons of huge titles coming out between this pax and next, im pretty sure that will be the case next year.
So... you are saying, instead of game variety we should just focus on CS?
Yeah... that sounds fun [/scarasim]
Sorry but I would rather see we have the latest and greatest games every year rather than doing a game from a previous year. With tons of huge titles coming out between this pax and next, im pretty sure that will be the case next year.
Honestly, I hope CS:S is supplanted by TF2. TF was always a better concept than CS, IMO, but with worse implementation.
The thing is, until CS loses popularity, it would be silly not to include it. And, just because a new game comes out, that doesn't mean it'll be good or draw a crowd. (See: Q4, BF2142.)
I'd almost love for the CS tournament to be completely removed next year. It's always the source of a bunch of crap like this at any LAN I have been to. People take the game way to seriously.
I'd almost love for the CS tournament to be completely removed next year. It's always the source of a bunch of crap like this at any LAN I have been to. People take the game way to seriously.
This is true of any game which is played competitively. In CS, however, there are more people who play competitively than any other game, which means more people to talk about how things "should" be.
Again... I was talking to Ghrog (read: HL2 Deathmatch/former CS:S admin) and he said he'd go to any UT tournaments in the area if there were prizes/cash to be won. Same goes for any other game in existence. The only differences are these: (1) there are more CS players; (2) CS is more established.
You're also missing that it's only one person actually complaining. I whined about some of the map choice and I talked a bit of shit. I never "threatened" not to play if my demands weren't met (though, everybody's favorite search company, Google, did just that!). I know it's pop psych, but you're just showing your insecurity in your CS skill.
Posts
yay better selection. Will someone update the pax server to reflect the changes?
1. To the statement regarding 'normal people don't notice it as much', first off that's because those "normal" people more than likely play on a 66tick server all the time. They have more than likely never experienced the difference between a 66tick or a 100tick. Hell, half of them probably don't know what console is let alone net_graph.
2. 66tick servers are why Counter-strike gets the title "random-strike". Because your shots don't land where you fire them. Ever go into a pub, and shoot on someones head and say "It's right on his head!" after wasting your whole clip? Thank 66tick servers for that. The only reason the "whiners" and "pros" complain so much is because we just address the problems ahead of time and thus updates, patches, or whatever you want to call them come out to address such bugs and fixes.
I'm not saying it's only competitive gamers who contribute, Pubbers do their job as well. Like look at the Radar fix or Quick Scope updates last year just prior and post PAX. Those were contributed by the mass, not Competitive players so don't get me wrong when I say competitive gamers are helping make games take strides.
3. What I meant as "audience" was that group of people standing behind my pug last year and the year prior watching us win in the finals. Those are the people interested and those are the people I'm in this for. If they see something I do and it helps them get better at the game, then I'm happier than anyone could be. I love to give lessons and help anyone I can as long as they have the ambition and motivation to get better. I coached a team after they got out of CAL-Open (Just barely) and instead of flopping in Main, I helped them break even and help learn to get better.
4. I understand LAG seems to be an issue with a lot of game. In CSS it's become much less of an issues unless the differences are me having 100 ping and someone else having 10 ping. It all comes down to the quality of a server. I play on New York, Virginia, Illinois, Georgia servers a lot of the time for practice. Then I play matches on a server in Dallas or Chicago. I don't care about ping difference as much as I care about the servers quality.
Also, is this server company doing this as a favor out of their heart or did they actually plan to try and market themselves for donating hundred to thousands of dollars of time and equipment to PAX? If they didn't plan on marketing themselves then I can see your opinion as right, but if they planning to then I can say your server sponsor will not want to work hard and then hear "these servers suck" and not gain anything from it. In all honesty, sponsors want publicity and large events like this benefit them when they want customers.
I say if you can address problems ahead of time, then that server company will be much more grateful when their client list increases after the event. Not sit at a stand still, or even worse, hear gossip or rude comments about the quality of their hard work when it could have been solved weeks prior to the event...
Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it.
So far we're on the same page? The tournaments are a small part of PAX PC. We're going to have almost 700 computers on this network. We'll have 160 total players in the CSS tournament, and the most players we'll ever have at once will be 80.
I don't know the final count on what we have yet, but just for giggles lets assume we've got about 6 machines not including the web server, not including the ventrilo servers, and not including the ftp server. Now lets say we can run either 4 servers on each machine at 100 tick, or 8 servers per machine on 66 tick.
We'll need 16 servers total, which means we're choosing between 2 dedicated and 4 dedicated.
What do you think will impress "normal" people the most. The higher tick rate with only 2 dedicated machines used for dedicated servers supplying games for the remaining 620 computers on the network, or a tick rate that's perfectly acceptable to 90% of our audience with 4 other machines all sporting dedicated servers for the remaining 620 computers on the network?
I understand you disagree with our conclusion, but I would hope you can at least see the reasoning.
I do agree with you Dave, but from what I see it sounds as if you guys are belittling your own equipment. Just the other day I had a team mate in Portland, Oregon host a 100tick server off his own computer. It was running at 100tick, we had 5 people total connected to the server (1 being himself) and it did not have a problem with tick. It only dropped in gun-fights and he_grenades going off from 100 to 90.
If these servers are provided by Intel then I am almost 100% confident you can run a lot more servers off your boxes than what you guys think you could. My guess is the server boxes have anywhere from 4GB-8GB of RAM, 3.0 Dual-processor Xeons or some other sort dual-core/dual-processing set-ups with a strong gigabit NIC. I honestly think you guys can run the necessary servers at 100tick.
If not, the harm is going to exactly what you expected (66tick) but I'd at least like the fact that you guys entertained the idea by setting them at 100tick and letting them drop to 66tick in gun-fights and nades being thrown.
Can this happen? Just set-up servers for 100tick and if the servers drop, they drop and simply it's the same quality, temporarily, as you guys expected, but at least the first shot will be accurate.
i played competetivly for a long time and I dont care. the beter team will win in the end so lets just have fun and get off these admins backs.
CSS isnt even the most exactly perfected game, most pros went back to 1.6 - not that there are any pro going anyway
What leagues did you play in then? Because 100tick has been a big deal since before I even started Source.
And I don't want to nit pick your whole post but frankly that statement is not true. Complexity, Evil Geniuses, Team 3D, Pandemic, United5, Jax Money Crew, and more have decided to stay playing Source Full-time. coL, EG, 3D, Pandemic, and jMc are all CGS teams now (Meaning they make big money playing this game) and have signed 2 season contracts meaning they will be competing for a long time. The 1.6 scene in the US has gone to near nothing since those teams have switched, the only dominant force in 1.6 is the UK scene with Pentagram Gshock, NiP (Otherwise known as SK), and a few other power-house Euro teams that escape my memory at the moment.
Like I said, I'm not pointing an insult at you, I'm just pointing out the flawed statement in your post.
CS people bitch too much.
This has always been the case ever since CS became popular.
It's also the most popular game in the world outside of WoW. Recently, CoD 2 has roughly equalled CS:S in Xfire minutes, but counting 1.6, it's got a leg up. It's a good tournament game, it's got better teamplay than anything else out there right now (strategy and teamwork are by far the most important things in CS:S -- a bad team with great shots will have nothing on a team with decent shots and great teamwork), and, frankly, the reason the CS community "bitches" so much is that we actually put thought into our game in ways OTHER than finding glitches (again, see BF2, where competitive play is all about who can find the best glitches). Now, I'm not saying that the community doesn't suck sometimes -- but when you've got a huge community, of course you're going to see a lot of whiners. But, go ahead, ask Ghrog which community is more mature -- UT or CS. Go play America's Army or Call of Duty (1 or 2). Worse communities than CS:S -- not as many whiners, but, by far, more arrogant players. DoD:S isn't too bad, but they're also resistant to, you know, having fun -- that, and most of the players are "too old" for LAN parties and the like.
Honestly, there's not a better game out there for a tournament right now. It attracts the biggest audience, and the vast majority of CS players are great people. What you perceive as whining is, for the most part, our resistance to people trying to push in on our community from the outside. We've been playing this game for a long time, and we know how it works. When people who rarely play the game come around and say, "You don't need to do that," and we know better, we don't like it. Let me see if I can find a good analogue for you.
I play golf a few times a year. Now, in golf, there's this concept (which is actually a physics) of the "coefficient of restitution." In other words, how much energy something maintains after impacting a solid surface. For some time, the limit was, IIRC, .81 in the US and Canada (governed by the USGA). In the rest of the world, however (governed by the R&A) it was higher. It was a pretty significant argument about which was better for a while -- regular golfers didn't much care, though, and used whatever clubs they wanted, even above the limit at US courses. Do you think it would have been received well if they'd just waltzed into the PGA offices and said, "Hey, guys, we're going to decide this for you -- no more limit on CoR"? I doubt it.
Or, if that doesn't work for you, think of something similar.
Now, I do understand that this tournament is going to be for fun, just like golfing at a muni (look it up). It's not a PGA tourney. It's not CAL or CPL. That's why I don't mind 66-tick -- it's a sort of compromise between not caring at all and having pro standards. As long as we aren't 33-tick -- because then it IS a joke -- I'm fine with it.
The support classes can also be used to argue for BF2: engineer, support, and medic. As an extremely extreme example, take an awesome infantry man in CS. Runs off by himself into a group of 4 or 5 enemies, takes out 3 before dying. He's given his team a significant 2 man advantage. The same thing happens in BF2, he takes out 3 and then dies. Everyone gets revived and the only thing that has changed is he lost his team a ticket.
This isn't a Bf2 vs CS arguement, more of a CS requires more teamwork then any other game counter-arguement (ie. give me an awp and I will single handedly kill there entire team on aztec)
Maybe it's just that I haven't played BF2 competitively, but it seems far less precise than CS.
You see it as bitching, I see it as proper planning so no complaints are to be had during the event.
Thanks for calling me a bitch though, jack ass.
Its more of a contest than an actual tournament. Im not even sure there is going to be brackets, just a show up and play if you think you are good.
I didnt call you specifically a bitch.
The way I said it in that context was that cs people complain too much, Saying someone is bitching and calling someone a bitch are 2 different things.
Every single Lan tournament I have ever seen that has cs, always has the "pro" people come in and start asking questions, then complain that things aren't up to their "standards" and try to get things changed, despite the vast majority just wanting to have fun. Happens at every major Lan that has a huge cs tournament.
You saying you cant play on a more level playing field with average gamers?
Dave set forth what is being used in the cs tourney, attend pax, sign up for tourney, live with it, and have fun.
Remember, these tourney's arent geared toward "pro" things like CAL and whatnot, geared toward the casual people. If you want the Pro stuff, go to a CAL type thing.
LETS TALK ABOUT SOME OTHER AWESOMER GAMES!
See, that's where we take issue -- a "level playing field" does not mean a server not up to CAL/CPL standards. Giving a handicap to worse players is NOT a level playing field. It does equalize skill level to some extent, but if all the bad players in baseball took steroids and none of the good ones did, would that be okay, just because it was to equalize skill level? Would that be a "level playing field"?
Again, I'm okay with 66-tick. I don't think it's a huge issue. There are more important things to discuss, really.
And, with that in mind, I'm done.
No shit. All this CS bitching is totally screwing up this thread, and it's sooooooooo boring. So you are going to get 5 headshots in a round instead of 9, big deal...
can you have the world in conflict discs/download ready for us the moment your inside? as well as several practice servers that have the CSS line up at 5 person teams 10 person max?
The long answer is "yes, assuming there is a demo available (I'm 97% sure there will be), and assuming we don't have unforseeable difficulties with the network and/or ftp server (97% sure there won't be)."
There will be 3 events (byoc schedule only included two, but we added a third on Friday and I'll update that right now), and each event will be it's own individual unique battle. Although technically, each night will have two battles.
We'll be playing two 6v6 matches at a time, and dedicating an hour to it each day (roughly 30 minutes of random play, gathering people, and getting everything running smoothly....then the two parallel 30 minute matches).
They'll take place 7:00pm on Friday and Saturday, and 2:00pm on Saturday.
Dance Dance instagib Quake 3 is sweet btw.
They will go fast, there will probably be a line for tournament registration that starts before 2:00 although I can't speculate how early the line will form, nor how long it will take to fill up the tournament.
If you don't get in then, make sure you're around the pc area before the tournament begins to fill any no-show spots.
Also, I'll have a 4v4 Console vs PC Shadowrun demo up at the ASTRO Gaming booth. Prizes for winning a match, and winning three matches in a row.
I know that it's not 6v6, but that's what we had room for, so you can get a little more practice in if you'd like.
*cringe*
Boy, you know, I'm sure you're going to be busy doing OTHER things during the PC vs Console showdowns. Because, you know, there's just so much other stuff, you don't want to waste your pax time getting beat down by my pc brothers and sisters. Right?
*hides*
The servers are fine, we are just doing settings that will be best for everyone and not the "pro" minority
one for the pro people who bitch and come in with CAL level teams and just rock everybody else
and other teams for the casual players, people who by themselves looking for groups, etc
obviously it's a tournament, but with the amount you guys spend saying "oh this is just casual, we're just in it to have fun", and then having teams who've played nationally and shit... not very casual, heh.
most of all, most of all
someone said true love was dead
but i'm bound to fall
bound to fall for you
oh what can i do
question: Will the BYOCers be able to get in line for tourney registration before everyone else, since we will be dropping our stuff off around 10am? It would be a nice perk to be able to get our registration done early or at least quickly.
Nobody who has competed "nationally" will be there. Most of the "good" teams at PAX are primarily pubbers with some CAL experience. Personally, I played CAL, but I enjoy pubs more, and just don't have time for that. And, while I played CAL-M, most of the people who will be the "pro" players at PAX have played CAL-O at the highest. That's a league where anyone at all can join.
Honestly, have fun, even if you get worked. It's a game, guys, remember that. One of my intentions at PAX may be to win (or do well, at least) in the CS:S tourney, yes, but that's because I want to have fun. If you intend to have fun rather than to win, you'll enjoy the tourney, whatever the case. The fun thing about tournaments is that you get to play in a different way than on a pub. You get to go slow, take your time, have teamwork. You don't just run around and shoot at things. It's a rewarding experience, however you do.
maybe not this year nobody really fucking good has competed
but the first year i went to PAX i talked to a few guys who said they'd done shit high up, and that they were there with a team
maybe he was lieing, but that's what i'm basing this off of.
most of all, most of all
someone said true love was dead
but i'm bound to fall
bound to fall for you
oh what can i do
Yeah... that sounds fun [/scarasim]
Sorry but I would rather see we have the latest and greatest games every year rather than doing a game from a previous year. With tons of huge titles coming out between this pax and next, im pretty sure that will be the case next year.
Honestly, I hope CS:S is supplanted by TF2. TF was always a better concept than CS, IMO, but with worse implementation.
The thing is, until CS loses popularity, it would be silly not to include it. And, just because a new game comes out, that doesn't mean it'll be good or draw a crowd. (See: Q4, BF2142.)
Again... I was talking to Ghrog (read: HL2 Deathmatch/former CS:S admin) and he said he'd go to any UT tournaments in the area if there were prizes/cash to be won. Same goes for any other game in existence. The only differences are these: (1) there are more CS players; (2) CS is more established.
You're also missing that it's only one person actually complaining. I whined about some of the map choice and I talked a bit of shit. I never "threatened" not to play if my demands weren't met (though, everybody's favorite search company, Google, did just that!). I know it's pop psych, but you're just showing your insecurity in your CS skill.
Sooooooooo... wanna 1v1?