Best thing about the ghost thing is that when a PC dies and the party has to carry the body off to be ressuerected you can roll up that same character as a ghost temporarily.
Bonus points if the party can't see him, or if the body gets stolen and you have to quest to go get it.
Well the other thing the gate did was that if you were within a certain distance (like hundred of miles) then ghosts were solid. So you could die, pick up your body and take it back to the city to be raised yourself. I also seem to recall that it was easier to raise people in/near the city.
BhowSunny day, sweeping the clouds away.On my way to where the air is sweet.Registered Userregular
Thanks for all the feedback. You've helped me narrow my choice to MM3 or DMG2. Does DMG2 contain material on the updated monster math? Did Wizards fix the MM1 math in the errata, or would I need to do conversions based on the MM3?
Thanks for all the feedback. You've helped me narrow my choice to MM3 or DMG2. Does DMG2 contain material on the updated monster math? Did Wizards fix the MM1 math in the errata, or would I need to do conversions based on the MM3?
As far as I know, Monster Manual 1 monsters were revamped in Monster Vault style articles on the main D&D website (and only some of them, at that). I also don't remember the updated monster math being published at all in print form (it was developed after DMG2, and not shown in MM3 or any other book). I'm fairly certain an errata PDF with the math was released, though, and I'd be surprised if the free-to-download "Asmor's Monster Maker" didn't use the latest math. You can also get access to every official 4E monster with a DDI subscription.
So what I'm getting at is "get Dungeon Master's Guide 2".
I'm honestly not expecting to get much feedback, but I feel the compulsion to make a thread about converting an obscure official D&D campaign setting to 4E. Would you rather read about the setting of Jakandor (where the world is reduced to an island filled with ancient ruins and populated primarily by honorable barbarians and civic-minded necromancers, with each faction competing against the other for control) or the setting of Ghostwalk (where ghosts congregate in a city located above the gate to the afterlife, interacting with the living and trying to protect the city from those who would disrupt it or destroy the gate to the afterlife)?
BhowSunny day, sweeping the clouds away.On my way to where the air is sweet.Registered Userregular
I no nothing of either. GhostWalk sounds wonderfully nuts with loads of unique story hooks. "Civic-minded necromancers", while awesome, seems to be the one thing that sets Jakandor apart from other settings(?).
Thanks for all the feedback. You've helped me narrow my choice to MM3 or DMG2. Does DMG2 contain material on the updated monster math? Did Wizards fix the MM1 math in the errata, or would I need to do conversions based on the MM3?
In the errata they publish that's available to everyone it's listed if you go into the Compiled Update. It's on page 46 or around there, with tables.
That would probably be your best bet. MM3 and the rest of the monster manuals after that use their creatures as templates or examples-of-rules, rather than spelling them outright. They "fixed" it in the sense that they have handy tables you can use to calculate monster statistics. They haven't retroactively changed any old monsters to the new math, you'd have to do that yourself.
I neglected to mention a few things about Jakandor:
- Humans are the only PC race.
- The island is all that's left of the entire world, and both factions believe the other must be destroyed before the world can be restored.
- The necromancer faction is somewhat Egyptian-themed, and its citizens gladly agree to let their bodies be reanimated after death to serve as zombie laborers.
- Warfare between the factions sometimes includes battles between what are essentially giant magic robots; the barbarians animate effigies of their totem animals, and the necromancers create constructs that assemble the bones of various giant beasts in weird ways ways and combine them with machinery.
You know what, sorry everyone, but I'm doing Jakandor first.
- Warfare between the factions sometimes includes battles between what are essentially giant magic robots [...]
You know what, sorry everyone, but I'm doing Jakandor first.
This was an unexpected outcome.
I still vote for Red Steel/Savage Coast. Granted, the original design was a little derivative, (Central America under siege by the Spanish, with little work done other than to add "WITH CRAZY MAGICAL CURSES!") but I think a savvy redesign could really bring it back to life, and the Red Curse is just screaming for use as a 4e Theme/Multiclass Feat.
It was originally an "offshoot" of Mystara, but I think putting it into the POL setting or even crafting a whole world suffering under the Curse would be an interesting take.
If my role play is hindered by rolling to play, then I'd prefer the rolls play right, instead of steam-rolling play-night.
Right now it's just going to be a kind of "Let's Read Jakandor" series with my ideas on revising it for 4E play. I could eventually use it in a game. I've never ran a game online and don't know the first thing about doing it, but I wouldn't mind trying.
- Warfare between the factions sometimes includes battles between what are essentially giant magic robots [...]
You know what, sorry everyone, but I'm doing Jakandor first.
This was an unexpected outcome.
I still vote for Red Steel/Savage Coast. Granted, the original design was a little derivative, (Central America under siege by the Spanish, with little work done other than to add "WITH CRAZY MAGICAL CURSES!") but I think a savvy redesign could really bring it back to life, and the Red Curse is just screaming for use as a 4e Theme/Multiclass Feat.
It was originally an "offshoot" of Mystara, but I think putting it into the POL setting or even crafting a whole world suffering under the Curse would be an interesting take.
I know nothing of the setting, but I'd be interested in reading about it and your ideas concerning it.
I know nothing of the setting, but I'd be interested in reading about it and your ideas concerning it.
Let me see if I can do a passable job of summing it up, Denada may well do it better.
The basic backdrop of the setting is similar to 1500s-1600s Central America, with all that implies: Invading empires, vast unexplored jungles, hidden cities (supposedly) teeming with both gold and horror, living on the frontier of 'civilized' expansion, corrupt missionaries seeking gold and oppressing poor, downtrodden natives, poor, downtrodden natives doing horrible things to themselves, each other, and the corrupt missionaries.
It also included such popular thematics as:
+ Swashbuckling!
+ Wild West action!
+ Uncivil disobedience!
+ Lovecraftian horror!
+ Flying sex snakes!
(I may be misremembering the last... I spent too much time in the C.A.H. thread.)
BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE:
That's right, with "Savage Coast/Red Steel/Screw-the-rest-of-Mystara-right-in-the neck-but-this-shit-is-#$%&ing-awesome" you also receive:
+ GUNS(originally 'smokepowder' weapons powered by magic because OMFG-NERDRAGE-GUNS-IN-D&D-WTF-HAET)
+ A HORRIFIC AND WIDESPREAD CURSE The Red Curse originally just effected settlers, but was later changed to effect most of the area. It granted the sufferers some sort of boon (called a Legacy) at the price of negative changes. Think "mild superpowers granted by the worlds most vindictive genie." Super strength in only one arm while the rest of your body withers, etc. Eventually the curse would mutate the bearers into horrific, abhuman monsters.
+ TEMPTATION, AND A RACE AGAINST THE CLOCK A magic powder was the only thing that could stave off the negative effects of the Curse, and was highly prized. It could also be used to manipulate the curse to continue to gain new/more powerful Legacies, and forged into weapons... resulting in Red Steel. Sounds catchy. We should name something that... something like... feminine hygiene products. Would you stave off the curse and keep your humanity? Use ever more powder in a quest for power? What happens if you run out? Are you willing to take that risk?
+ HORRIFIC, ABHUMAN MONSTERS. (See above)
If my role play is hindered by rolling to play, then I'd prefer the rolls play right, instead of steam-rolling play-night.
What would be the most difficult things to port to 4E? Right now I'm hearing guns and the Legacies. Does each Legacy impart one power, and how many will a character have by the end of their run? If it's not many, maybe the setting could use inherent
bonuses and treat the Legacies as alternative rewards?
Are there standard D&D monsters, or are most humanoid monsters victims of the curse? Is the curse assumed to affect all PCs?
You mentioned that you dislike the rest of Mystara. Maybe the setting could actually be an unusually large Domain of Dread, or a Forgotten Sanctuary hidden away in a demiplane whose gate is lost to the Deep Astral Sea. That would cut it off from the rest of the world, meaning that unusual cults that worship none of the recognized gods could exist (if it's a Forgotten Santuary, maybe the residents could pay reverence to the deteriorating aspects and avatars of long dead gods and primordials whose existence is nearly forgotten throughout the rest of creation; if it's a Domain of Dread, maybe the residents are all worshiping their own conceptions of the mysterious forces that create the Domains of Dread?). I'm personally going to use the Forgotten Sanctuary angle for my take on Jakandor.
Guns are relatively easy--crossbow mechanics are effectively the same thing unless you're just crazy stuck on the idea that guns must equal MOAR DAMAGE. (arrows were tearing through buffaloes and lodging themselves in the ground long before the first rifle-armed hunters were using several shots to put them down.) I am obviously not stuck on that idea. Perhaps give them some minor mechanical way to differentiate them and call it a day.
Legacies could easily be handled a la Dark Sun. Themes & Multi-class feats (handled similar to Spellscarred in FR) for those who want to focus on them, both if you want it to be a central part of your character from the start, and a small list of minor powers (like wild talents) that characters get one of at the start. Alternative rewards could also be a viable use.
Standard monsters were there, but the mutant curse victims (and 4e's pretty flexible monster design) would provide a chance to make some interesting things of your own.
I'd say assuming the curse effects all PCs would be the norm, but how it effects them should be in part a discussion between the player and the DM, and how they choose to deal with it (in terms of embrace or avoid) boils down to character creation/advancement options. The DM has the option to make the "cure" (more like treatment) as scarce or plentiful as they'd like, depending on the tone they're going for, but I think (like Dark Sun's survival days) it should be something listed with a basic "assumed" availability and cost, and some advice offered on how to deal with it, along with some guidelines. Not every player is going to appreciate their carefully crafted character being turned into an unplayable slavering mutant beast and having no way to avoid it just because the DM feels like "desperation" is an important theme in his game.
All of your suggestions on placement are excellent, but I'm not sure it needs to be nailed down, other than to just say "here's some ways to fit it into X."
I'd add that it'd do fine as an alternate chunk of Xen'drik, an undescribed jungle portion of the "new" FR setting, and the fact that it is generally a small collection of civilized points in a very dark and dangerous place means it fits fine into the general POL thematics without any change. While it shares a lot of themes with Dark Sun, it wouldn't drop in perfectly, but certain elements could surely be lifted out wholesale as some portion of the Forest Ridge.
If my role play is hindered by rolling to play, then I'd prefer the rolls play right, instead of steam-rolling play-night.
I'm gonna look more into the setting later. At a glance, I've already seen that there are chameleon people called walarras that are said to be related to dragons (a chameleon-like racial variant for dragonborn could serve as the walarras). Tortles look like an interesting new race. Also, I see that instead of gods, there are formerly human immortals; that could be used as part of an optional setting background if you want to use the Forgotten Sanctuary idea I proposed earlier.
I might be able to help you adapt Red Steel while also adapting Jakandor myself. It could be a community effort if anyone else is interested (I know I'd need help making good PC-relevant mechanics).
I actually don't know much about Jakandor at all other than that it's a thing that exists. But yeah, guns = crossbows, legacies = themes is probably a good enough way to handle those things.
Though a 4E adaptation of the setting could change this, it looks like most characters only ever have one permanent Legacy, with additional ones being only temporary and requiring a special kind of potion to acquire. There's also a character kit focused on more extensively exploiting the Legacies that could be converted to a theme.
Given that the curse causes Legacies to also have negative effects, maybe we could look at the Alpha Mutations from Gamma World for inspiration.
The difficulty with making Legacies into themes is that originally each one is just a single power, with some of them being very minor, and they are associated with a possible drawback. For example, a character might have a Legacy that lets him elongate his fingers into entangling tentacles, but the curse could make it so his fingers remain permanently elongated but unresponsive except when he uses their power.
The difficulty with making Legacies into themes is that originally each one is just a single power, with some of them being very minor, and they are associated with a possible drawback. For example, a character might have a Legacy that lets him elongate his fingers into entangling tentacles, but the curse could make it so his fingers remain permanently elongated but unresponsive except when he uses their power.
I'm not really seeing the problem. Themes only ever give one "free" power, you trade into the other ones. So long as all the higher level powers are written as extensions or variations on the base power it's just that bargain you talked about before.
I also see no reason why a theme couldn't have negative effects, they already have a bunch of weird stuff at various levels. This is presuming in a Red Steel setting you wouldn't use any normal themes.
This is presuming in a Red Steel setting you wouldn't use any normal themes.
That's my other problem with the idea of making them themes. What if a player wants to use another theme? It seems simpler to me to make them Legendary Boons that work like the cursed items from Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium or Book of Vile Darkness. It would be a bit more complicated, but you could also link them to a modified version of the disease track-style curse rules and have it so that the negative effects don't come into play until the curse gets to later stages.
Currently I'm under the impression that when you make a new character, you automatically have all of the Class Feats listed in that class's Trait block. (Example: Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority, and Fighter Weapon Talent for a Fighter) And then you get to pick a Feat from the big Feat List in Chapter 6. Is this correct?
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited February 2013
Class Features, yes.
Then you pick Feats from the listing of Feats available to any characters, depending on the prerequisites.
Edit: With regards to class features, it may let you pick one or another class feature depending on what's available rather than "you get them all", but it sounds as if you're using a book which might not have all of the options available from other supplements to make this choice available.
Yeah, we're just using the basic PHB. I'll be DMing a weekly game for a group next month and was practicing making characters so I can easily guide them through the process. Most of us have never played before, so we're holding off on the books full of extra options for now.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Do any of you have access to the online character builder? It'd provide a handy visualization of the process of making a character as it goes through it step by step, even if it uses all of the options available.
Posts
Bonus points if the party can't see him, or if the body gets stolen and you have to quest to go get it.
As far as I know, Monster Manual 1 monsters were revamped in Monster Vault style articles on the main D&D website (and only some of them, at that). I also don't remember the updated monster math being published at all in print form (it was developed after DMG2, and not shown in MM3 or any other book). I'm fairly certain an errata PDF with the math was released, though, and I'd be surprised if the free-to-download "Asmor's Monster Maker" didn't use the latest math. You can also get access to every official 4E monster with a DDI subscription.
So what I'm getting at is "get Dungeon Master's Guide 2".
To the death!
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
I'm not familiar with the werewolf theme. Where was that published?
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Dragon Magazine #410 according to my CB. Along with the Werebear and Wererat themes.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
In the errata they publish that's available to everyone it's listed if you go into the Compiled Update. It's on page 46 or around there, with tables.
That would probably be your best bet. MM3 and the rest of the monster manuals after that use their creatures as templates or examples-of-rules, rather than spelling them outright. They "fixed" it in the sense that they have handy tables you can use to calculate monster statistics. They haven't retroactively changed any old monsters to the new math, you'd have to do that yourself.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
- Humans are the only PC race.
- The island is all that's left of the entire world, and both factions believe the other must be destroyed before the world can be restored.
- The necromancer faction is somewhat Egyptian-themed, and its citizens gladly agree to let their bodies be reanimated after death to serve as zombie laborers.
- Warfare between the factions sometimes includes battles between what are essentially giant magic robots; the barbarians animate effigies of their totem animals, and the necromancers create constructs that assemble the bones of various giant beasts in weird ways ways and combine them with machinery.
You know what, sorry everyone, but I'm doing Jakandor first.
I still vote for Red Steel/Savage Coast. Granted, the original design was a little derivative, (Central America under siege by the Spanish, with little work done other than to add "WITH CRAZY MAGICAL CURSES!") but I think a savvy redesign could really bring it back to life, and the Red Curse is just screaming for use as a 4e Theme/Multiclass Feat.
It was originally an "offshoot" of Mystara, but I think putting it into the POL setting or even crafting a whole world suffering under the Curse would be an interesting take.
Right now it's just going to be a kind of "Let's Read Jakandor" series with my ideas on revising it for 4E play. I could eventually use it in a game. I've never ran a game online and don't know the first thing about doing it, but I wouldn't mind trying.
I know nothing of the setting, but I'd be interested in reading about it and your ideas concerning it.
Let me see if I can do a passable job of summing it up, Denada may well do it better.
The basic backdrop of the setting is similar to 1500s-1600s Central America, with all that implies: Invading empires, vast unexplored jungles, hidden cities (supposedly) teeming with both gold and horror, living on the frontier of 'civilized' expansion, corrupt missionaries seeking gold and oppressing poor, downtrodden natives, poor, downtrodden natives doing horrible things to themselves, each other, and the corrupt missionaries.
It also included such popular thematics as:
+ Swashbuckling!
+ Wild West action!
+ Uncivil disobedience!
+ Lovecraftian horror!
+ Flying sex snakes!
(I may be misremembering the last... I spent too much time in the C.A.H. thread.)
BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE:
That's right, with "Savage Coast/Red Steel/Screw-the-rest-of-Mystara-right-in-the neck-but-this-shit-is-#$%&ing-awesome" you also receive:
+ GUNS (originally 'smokepowder' weapons powered by magic because OMFG-NERDRAGE-GUNS-IN-D&D-WTF-HAET)
+ A HORRIFIC AND WIDESPREAD CURSE The Red Curse originally just effected settlers, but was later changed to effect most of the area. It granted the sufferers some sort of boon (called a Legacy) at the price of negative changes. Think "mild superpowers granted by the worlds most vindictive genie." Super strength in only one arm while the rest of your body withers, etc. Eventually the curse would mutate the bearers into horrific, abhuman monsters.
+ TEMPTATION, AND A RACE AGAINST THE CLOCK A magic powder was the only thing that could stave off the negative effects of the Curse, and was highly prized. It could also be used to manipulate the curse to continue to gain new/more powerful Legacies, and forged into weapons... resulting in Red Steel. Sounds catchy. We should name something that... something like... feminine hygiene products. Would you stave off the curse and keep your humanity? Use ever more powder in a quest for power? What happens if you run out? Are you willing to take that risk?
+ HORRIFIC, ABHUMAN MONSTERS. (See above)
bonuses and treat the Legacies as alternative rewards?
Are there standard D&D monsters, or are most humanoid monsters victims of the curse? Is the curse assumed to affect all PCs?
You mentioned that you dislike the rest of Mystara. Maybe the setting could actually be an unusually large Domain of Dread, or a Forgotten Sanctuary hidden away in a demiplane whose gate is lost to the Deep Astral Sea. That would cut it off from the rest of the world, meaning that unusual cults that worship none of the recognized gods could exist (if it's a Forgotten Santuary, maybe the residents could pay reverence to the deteriorating aspects and avatars of long dead gods and primordials whose existence is nearly forgotten throughout the rest of creation; if it's a Domain of Dread, maybe the residents are all worshiping their own conceptions of the mysterious forces that create the Domains of Dread?). I'm personally going to use the Forgotten Sanctuary angle for my take on Jakandor.
Guns are relatively easy--crossbow mechanics are effectively the same thing unless you're just crazy stuck on the idea that guns must equal MOAR DAMAGE. (arrows were tearing through buffaloes and lodging themselves in the ground long before the first rifle-armed hunters were using several shots to put them down.) I am obviously not stuck on that idea.
Legacies could easily be handled a la Dark Sun. Themes & Multi-class feats (handled similar to Spellscarred in FR) for those who want to focus on them, both if you want it to be a central part of your character from the start, and a small list of minor powers (like wild talents) that characters get one of at the start. Alternative rewards could also be a viable use.
Standard monsters were there, but the mutant curse victims (and 4e's pretty flexible monster design) would provide a chance to make some interesting things of your own.
I'd say assuming the curse effects all PCs would be the norm, but how it effects them should be in part a discussion between the player and the DM, and how they choose to deal with it (in terms of embrace or avoid) boils down to character creation/advancement options. The DM has the option to make the "cure" (more like treatment) as scarce or plentiful as they'd like, depending on the tone they're going for, but I think (like Dark Sun's survival days) it should be something listed with a basic "assumed" availability and cost, and some advice offered on how to deal with it, along with some guidelines. Not every player is going to appreciate their carefully crafted character being turned into an unplayable slavering mutant beast and having no way to avoid it just because the DM feels like "desperation" is an important theme in his game.
All of your suggestions on placement are excellent, but I'm not sure it needs to be nailed down, other than to just say "here's some ways to fit it into X."
I'd add that it'd do fine as an alternate chunk of Xen'drik, an undescribed jungle portion of the "new" FR setting, and the fact that it is generally a small collection of civilized points in a very dark and dangerous place means it fits fine into the general POL thematics without any change. While it shares a lot of themes with Dark Sun, it wouldn't drop in perfectly, but certain elements could surely be lifted out wholesale as some portion of the Forest Ridge.
I might be able to help you adapt Red Steel while also adapting Jakandor myself. It could be a community effort if anyone else is interested (I know I'd need help making good PC-relevant mechanics).
could just port over crossbows, sure.
Given that the curse causes Legacies to also have negative effects, maybe we could look at the Alpha Mutations from Gamma World for inspiration.
I'm not really seeing the problem. Themes only ever give one "free" power, you trade into the other ones. So long as all the higher level powers are written as extensions or variations on the base power it's just that bargain you talked about before.
I also see no reason why a theme couldn't have negative effects, they already have a bunch of weird stuff at various levels. This is presuming in a Red Steel setting you wouldn't use any normal themes.
That's my other problem with the idea of making them themes. What if a player wants to use another theme? It seems simpler to me to make them Legendary Boons that work like the cursed items from Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium or Book of Vile Darkness. It would be a bit more complicated, but you could also link them to a modified version of the disease track-style curse rules and have it so that the negative effects don't come into play until the curse gets to later stages.
Currently I'm under the impression that when you make a new character, you automatically have all of the Class Feats listed in that class's Trait block. (Example: Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority, and Fighter Weapon Talent for a Fighter) And then you get to pick a Feat from the big Feat List in Chapter 6. Is this correct?
Then you pick Feats from the listing of Feats available to any characters, depending on the prerequisites.
Edit: With regards to class features, it may let you pick one or another class feature depending on what's available rather than "you get them all", but it sounds as if you're using a book which might not have all of the options available from other supplements to make this choice available.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Yeah, we're just using the basic PHB. I'll be DMing a weekly game for a group next month and was practicing making characters so I can easily guide them through the process. Most of us have never played before, so we're holding off on the books full of extra options for now.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
As an obvious counterpoint to my question: why am I asking if WoTC has decent online product support?
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12