Mutant can't be swapped out with black or asian or any other race. Mutants are literally an off shoot of the human race, and the current head of the mutant revolution is preaching that they are homo superior. Saying that mutants are just human beings like any other person and referring to them a MUTANT (which has some pretty negative connotations in pop culture see: the billion monster movies with mutant in the title) is detrimental to the dream of peaceful co habitation and unity.
Not to mention that Remender is hardlyThe first writer to point out mutant is a pretty shitty term to be tossed around like it is. That scene with Kitty Pryde and the word mutie, for example.
The X-Men started out as a racism allegory but they have gotten so far away from that over the years that trying to take Havok's speech out of the context of the current situation with Scott and AvX and swap out real world races is kinda pointless.
If you follow the X-Men as civil rights metaphor, Havok is positioning himself as Booker T. Washington.
This is one of those things where I read the scene as I'm pretty sure Rememder intended, but can understand where the anger is coming from at it, as well.
I'd at least argue that mutant IS a negative word in the Marvel Universe, to the point of basically being a slur. The only comparison I can think of is the word "gay" which some people are happy to use to describe themselves, but is also turned around as an insult quite a lot.
It definitely feels like the point is to come together and stop seeing the differences and all that, but it's a little too easy to read other more uncomfortable things in it, as well.
AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
yeah i mean i can see both sides to this easily and without calling either side ridiculous
x-men have always been representatives as the other in society, and i can see how people interpret and prefer different things in x-men stories/analogical handling of the characters
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
"Mutant" cannot be anywhere near what Alex is trying to say, it's simply a way to distinguish one from another. Hell, for the longest time it was a way to distinguish Avengers from X-Men. If I say my friend is jewish, that's not a slur, that's the truth. If I turn it into "my friend's a jew" it becomes pejorative, much like how mutie is to mutant. There's an incredible world of difference there. As to the whole homo superior thing, Xavier's been saying the same thing for years, it's what he classified mutants as, not just Magneto. He just chose to say it makes no difference since we're all humans. I think there's a bit too much of an attempt to whitewash that part of Xavier's teaching in trying to be a counterpoint to Scott.
In all my years reading mutant never seemed like a bad word by itself. It's the other connotations that made it worse, much like how superhero seems much less sinister than "capes", which made it seem more renegade Lorenzo Lamas.
I think an argument could be made that, to the general populace of the Marvel Universe, mutant IS that kind of negative word. It's always been a thing that people are afraid of mutants, and it's not out of the realm of possibility that the word could evolve into a slur that most people use even with things like "mutie" existing.
Of course, we see so little of the "normal" people that it's just as easy to completely dismiss said argument and we're left right back in a kind of uncomfortable spot.
KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
I keep trying to understand how the person writing the article could find it offensive or troubling and I come up blank
If you swap mutant for gay or black or muslim the speech is still just "we are all people"
Unless for some reason the author thinks people are all about being the gay guy or the black guy or the muslim guy
If you wanted to critique the writing I would agree with Antimatter that mutie was already the slur analogue where mutant would be acceptable term for use in conversation and i think Alex should have been trying to retire the Homo Superior thing along with mutie
I keep trying to understand how the person writing the article could find it offensive or troubling and I come up blank
If you swap mutant for gay or black or muslim the speech is still just "we are all people"
Unless for some reason the author thinks people are all about being the gay guy or the black guy or the muslim guy
If you wanted to critique the writing I would agree with Antimatter that mutie was already the slur analogue where mutant would be acceptable term for use in conversation and i think Alex should have been trying to retire the Homo Superior thing along with mutie
The offensiveness comes from an implication that people should discard their identities to become 'normal', i.e. straight, white male. It's not the intent of what's being said, but it's very easy to read it that way.
I think an argument could be made that, to the general populace of the Marvel Universe, mutant IS that kind of negative word. It's always been a thing that people are afraid of mutants, and it's not out of the realm of possibility that the word could evolve into a slur that most people use even with things like "mutie" existing.
Of course, we see so little of the "normal" people that it's just as easy to completely dismiss said argument and we're left right back in a kind of uncomfortable spot.
I just remember reading even in old Marvel house ads for the mutant registration act where they have pictures of kids and then one is labeled as mutie, it's clear that mutant was never as toxic as it other terms, mutant was always a classification, like telekinetic or ninja or sterling archer.
But that's a good point about never seeing the normal people, and I think because the audience is we the reader, not the person, you have to start from our perspective. Because really, we are the normal people.
It's kind of like, if "mutie" is the n-word, then "mutant" is analogous to "negro". In the 60s, "negro" was considered a polite, casual word, but now it's considered kind of weird and wrong.
Mutant is still a pretty bad term to use as the default classification in my opinion. Especially with the emphasis being place on unity between the two species.
Mutant's second definition in the dictionary is
2. Slang One that is suggestive of a genetic mutant, as in bizarre appearance or inaptitude.
And like I said earlier, it is most often used to describe monsters or "freaks" in pop culture.
It is hard to preach a message of unification when the word people use to describe you very literally means different.
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AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
counterpoint: the reclamation and self-describing use of the term queer in lgbt culture.
counterpoint: the reclamation and self-describing use of the term queer in lgbt culture.
Well I would say that is Scott's point of view. He would use mutant and use it proudly.
Alex is following Xavier's example and very clearly thinks that emphasizing the differences between humans and mutants is taking a giant step backwards.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
But Xavier never taught that emphasizing is bad, up until 6 months ago the dream was always for humans and mutants to coexist peacefully, fully accepting one another, which meant letting your x-gene fly. Embrace the differences and move on with your lives.
And Centi my line of thought on "mutant" is that it is like calling someone white or black or gay, it simply is what you are, it's fully objective and there's no subjectivity to it. "Mutie" would be one step down, like honky, negro, or homo. And then you get into the "gene trash" level of insults where it's your more offensive terms. Mutant can't even be compared to indian because it wasn't even like there were mutants here and then the normal humans took the land.
At the end of the day there's a lot more to work with in the scope of human/mutant relations in the marvel universe as opposed to arguing over a relatively inoffensive word that has made the company billions of dollars and pretty much changed how the word is even used with recent generations. How about you start with having no more killing robots?
I'm not even sure I agree that he's trying to demonize the word mutant itself, the whole point of the speech I think is that there's a massive difference between embracing the aspects of yourself that make you different, and picking one of them and identifying only or at least primarily by it.
Alex is saying that by calling him a mutant, you are in essence classifying him as that one thing and denying everything else about him. He's not ashamed to be a mutant, but he also dosen't see it as the most important thing about him.
I think the speech also works on a meta level since for so long the Marvel Universe has been divided into "mutant books" and "superhero books" if you were a mutant you belonged in an x-men book and that was that, Alex's speech fits in with the whole mission statement of Uncanny Avengers and a lot of Marvel NOW in general which is to bring all those diverse elements - Avengers, X-Men, Cosmic, Magic, and make them more cohesive.
Alex never said that mutants shouldn't be proud of the fact that they are mutant. Just that the emphasis shouldn't be placed on I AM MUTANT, YOU ARE HUMAN like Scott is preaching. At the end of the day they are all human beings.
I have to say, I think Joe convinced me a bit that Remender/Havok's argument may not be wrong in the context of the Marvel universe, but meta-textually it may be irresponsible.
I keep trying to understand how the person writing the article could find it offensive or troubling and I come up blank
If you swap mutant for gay or black or muslim the speech is still just "we are all people"
Unless for some reason the author thinks people are all about being the gay guy or the black guy or the muslim guy
If you wanted to critique the writing I would agree with Antimatter that mutie was already the slur analogue where mutant would be acceptable term for use in conversation and i think Alex should have been trying to retire the Homo Superior thing along with mutie
The offensiveness comes from an implication that people should discard their identities to become 'normal', i.e. straight, white male. It's not the intent of what's being said, but it's very easy to read it that way.
Ah well I guess that makes sense but in the context of the comic I think it is really dumb to read it that way
Yeah. I think that you can find some irresponsible implications in his speech, but within the context of the comic itself and the state of the Marvel Universe it is completely fine.
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
also twitter is the worst place in the world for any sort of argument or discussion because twitter is dog shit to read conversations on and kids need to get off my lawn up hill both ways etc
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AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
While Remender is definitely being immature, I disagree with the first point.
Alex never says to abandon mutant culture and heritage, just that the emphasis should be placed on how they are all human beings not the division between humans and mutants. Hughes is ignoring the fact that Alex is speaking as the figurehead against Scott's militaristic views and the message he has to send to the rest of the populace.
I think Remender's reaction to the comments is a little disappointing but I also imagine it's pretty frustrating to have people constructing these straw mans and putting words in his mouth to refute.
Like I would find those bottom 3 tweets a lot more convincing if I didn't so fundamentally disagree with the top one
Another perspective could be that he's just seeking the same kind of treatment that other heroes get, which is an acknowledgement of his powers without the condemnation of their origins. People accept Cap as an individual without ignoring the things that make him special, just because he isn't a mutant, so they could do the same for Alex even if they stopped thinking of him as a mutant.
But that perspective doesn't lend itself to comparing mutants to a real-life minority, since there's no real life example of groups with the same trait being treated differently because one was born that way while the other had to take a serum or whatever.
And really, drawing comparisons to the n-word by using the phrase m-word seems to make Remender's intent rather clear. He's talking about abandoning a slur, not an identity.
the same post that described a team with a jewish lady of gypsy descent as an aryan superteam
And one that was one issue away from getting a Japanese member.
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
Well I think Hughes is pretty spot on with that last one, Remender is handling this basically as unprofessionally as possible
But the people criticizing the speech are overreacting to something that just isn't there and it is pretty disappointing because the ones like Hughes seem like otherwise smart people
And really, drawing comparisons to the n-word by using the phrase m-word seems to make Remender's intent rather clear. He's talking about abandoning a slur, not an identity.
Well, I can see why a person would be offended by comparing the word "mutant" to a slur like the n-word. It's the whole comparing a fictional injustice to a real world injustice thing. Especially when the sentiment is being expressed by a white person who has little or no real world experience with discrimination.
Yeah, Remender is a super talented writer but everything about his tweets and the fact that he is best buds with Brian Posehn and Gerry Duggan make me think he is pretty immature when it comes to stuff like this.
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AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
i would like to be clear with the fact that i love the works of his I've read, A LOT, i am not going to suddenly go RAH RAH I HATE HIM, HE'S A BIGOT. he's a fantastic writer with insane ideas! i just dont know if I like what's going on here.
And really, drawing comparisons to the n-word by using the phrase m-word seems to make Remender's intent rather clear. He's talking about abandoning a slur, not an identity.
Well, I can see why a person would be offended by comparing the word "mutant" to a slur like the n-word. It's the whole comparing a fictional injustice to a real world injustice thing. Especially when the sentiment is being expressed by a white person who has little or no real world experience with discrimination.
The X-Men basically exist to compare fictional injustices to real world injustices. Every act against them is treated as a hate crime, and every attempt to erase them is put on par with countless real world examples of genocide.
And really, if it's so difficult to understand discrimination without experiencing it for yourself, then any attempt to educate people on the subject is doomed from the start. There'd be no point in telling Remender that he wrote something racist because, as a white dude, he lacks the experience that would enable him to even understand what he did wrong. So, if you do criticize him, then you're expressing faith in the opposite viewpoint and showing that you do believe a white dude can understand even without firsthand experience.
And really, drawing comparisons to the n-word by using the phrase m-word seems to make Remender's intent rather clear. He's talking about abandoning a slur, not an identity.
Well, I can see why a person would be offended by comparing the word "mutant" to a slur like the n-word. It's the whole comparing a fictional injustice to a real world injustice thing. Especially when the sentiment is being expressed by a white person who has little or no real world experience with discrimination.
Maybe, but comparing fictional injustice to real world injustice is kind of the thing mutants do in the marvel universe
Complaints don't seem to be that it is an issue of scale but rather a misundersanding of remender's point, which is that mutant is used to mean not human
Some characters take it as more than human (scott, magneto) and others take it as less than human (senator kelly, most people really) but it seems to me that alex is rejecting a word used to other people with active x-genes in order to try and foster more acceptance
Though he doesn't offer an alternative ("call me alex" aside) and mutant is kind of weird for remender to focus on because the only other terms we have for mutants in the marvel universe are mutie which is already clearly a slur and homo superior which has at least as many problems as mutant
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
The whole speech reminded me of a point in Generation Hope when Hope dresses down Xavier in front of Magneto for the whole "Homo Superior" thing and how trying to find a peace between humans and mutants is the wrong way to go about it as it still draws lines between them
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
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DarcsteelWildcardNC United StatesRegistered Userregular
So they are going to keep the AvX theme running but they are moving Havoc in as Cyclops primary counterpoint. I can see this making a lot more sense then Cap cause no matter how you hash it in the view of the public Cap has lost out almost everytime he's gone against the X-men.
I can understand the speech and Remender had to know there would be backlash from a character statement like that, however I do believe that it neednt be as serious as it was. As it has been stated Mutant has always been a term of classification like white, black, or hispanic.
What has me thinking is now that a mutant is very publicly leading and speaking for the Avengers how are the various anit mutant organizations such as the purifiers going to react. The X-men were always seen as more of a black ops group never a real front page team (up until they went to san fran) but the avengers are in your face public. Whats going to happen when a squad of sentinels drop in at the Avengers next mission site.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
I'm guess I'm just having a hard time with this as you can't have Marvel milk the hell out of the word mutant for 30 years (and again, changing the meaning of the word for a lot of people) and then have the same term now mean something bad. And that's what it feels like to me, a word that seemed to be just fine, especially to make hella money off of, is now seen as bad. I don't know how much of that is trying to get back to that mutant is analogous angle, but it feels incredibly forced, especially at this point in the marvel history where we've already had moments of peaceful coexistence between man and mutant. If this was still when Genosha was actively brainwashing mutants and using them as slaves, you might have a stronger argument (which reminds me, remember when Alex was brainwashed and acted out of character, attacking innocent people and leading to the death of a robot? And how Scott didn't turn his back on him? Huh? Huh? That's a chop).
The whole thing just reminds me of a scene on Top Gear where James May has a hard time saying the word "german" like he's still in 1943 and dealing with air raids, but there's really nothing wrong with the word as is, especially today.
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If you follow the X-Men as civil rights metaphor, Havok is positioning himself as Booker T. Washington.
I'd at least argue that mutant IS a negative word in the Marvel Universe, to the point of basically being a slur. The only comparison I can think of is the word "gay" which some people are happy to use to describe themselves, but is also turned around as an insult quite a lot.
It definitely feels like the point is to come together and stop seeing the differences and all that, but it's a little too easy to read other more uncomfortable things in it, as well.
XBL: JyrenB ; Steam: Jyren ; Twitter
x-men have always been representatives as the other in society, and i can see how people interpret and prefer different things in x-men stories/analogical handling of the characters
In all my years reading mutant never seemed like a bad word by itself. It's the other connotations that made it worse, much like how superhero seems much less sinister than "capes", which made it seem more renegade Lorenzo Lamas.
Of course, we see so little of the "normal" people that it's just as easy to completely dismiss said argument and we're left right back in a kind of uncomfortable spot.
XBL: JyrenB ; Steam: Jyren ; Twitter
If you swap mutant for gay or black or muslim the speech is still just "we are all people"
Unless for some reason the author thinks people are all about being the gay guy or the black guy or the muslim guy
If you wanted to critique the writing I would agree with Antimatter that mutie was already the slur analogue where mutant would be acceptable term for use in conversation and i think Alex should have been trying to retire the Homo Superior thing along with mutie
The offensiveness comes from an implication that people should discard their identities to become 'normal', i.e. straight, white male. It's not the intent of what's being said, but it's very easy to read it that way.
XBL: JyrenB ; Steam: Jyren ; Twitter
Indian, Eskimo, etc.
I just remember reading even in old Marvel house ads for the mutant registration act where they have pictures of kids and then one is labeled as mutie, it's clear that mutant was never as toxic as it other terms, mutant was always a classification, like telekinetic or ninja or sterling archer.
But that's a good point about never seeing the normal people, and I think because the audience is we the reader, not the person, you have to start from our perspective. Because really, we are the normal people.
Mutant's second definition in the dictionary is
And like I said earlier, it is most often used to describe monsters or "freaks" in pop culture.
It is hard to preach a message of unification when the word people use to describe you very literally means different.
Alex is following Xavier's example and very clearly thinks that emphasizing the differences between humans and mutants is taking a giant step backwards.
And Centi my line of thought on "mutant" is that it is like calling someone white or black or gay, it simply is what you are, it's fully objective and there's no subjectivity to it. "Mutie" would be one step down, like honky, negro, or homo. And then you get into the "gene trash" level of insults where it's your more offensive terms. Mutant can't even be compared to indian because it wasn't even like there were mutants here and then the normal humans took the land.
At the end of the day there's a lot more to work with in the scope of human/mutant relations in the marvel universe as opposed to arguing over a relatively inoffensive word that has made the company billions of dollars and pretty much changed how the word is even used with recent generations. How about you start with having no more killing robots?
Alex is saying that by calling him a mutant, you are in essence classifying him as that one thing and denying everything else about him. He's not ashamed to be a mutant, but he also dosen't see it as the most important thing about him.
I think the speech also works on a meta level since for so long the Marvel Universe has been divided into "mutant books" and "superhero books" if you were a mutant you belonged in an x-men book and that was that, Alex's speech fits in with the whole mission statement of Uncanny Avengers and a lot of Marvel NOW in general which is to bring all those diverse elements - Avengers, X-Men, Cosmic, Magic, and make them more cohesive.
Really interesting disagreement with Joe Hughes in the replies there.
Ah well I guess that makes sense but in the context of the comic I think it is really dumb to read it that way
Alex never says to abandon mutant culture and heritage, just that the emphasis should be placed on how they are all human beings not the division between humans and mutants. Hughes is ignoring the fact that Alex is speaking as the figurehead against Scott's militaristic views and the message he has to send to the rest of the populace.
Like I would find those bottom 3 tweets a lot more convincing if I didn't so fundamentally disagree with the top one
But that perspective doesn't lend itself to comparing mutants to a real-life minority, since there's no real life example of groups with the same trait being treated differently because one was born that way while the other had to take a serum or whatever.
And really, drawing comparisons to the n-word by using the phrase m-word seems to make Remender's intent rather clear. He's talking about abandoning a slur, not an identity.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
But the people criticizing the speech are overreacting to something that just isn't there and it is pretty disappointing because the ones like Hughes seem like otherwise smart people
Well, I can see why a person would be offended by comparing the word "mutant" to a slur like the n-word. It's the whole comparing a fictional injustice to a real world injustice thing. Especially when the sentiment is being expressed by a white person who has little or no real world experience with discrimination.
The X-Men basically exist to compare fictional injustices to real world injustices. Every act against them is treated as a hate crime, and every attempt to erase them is put on par with countless real world examples of genocide.
And really, if it's so difficult to understand discrimination without experiencing it for yourself, then any attempt to educate people on the subject is doomed from the start. There'd be no point in telling Remender that he wrote something racist because, as a white dude, he lacks the experience that would enable him to even understand what he did wrong. So, if you do criticize him, then you're expressing faith in the opposite viewpoint and showing that you do believe a white dude can understand even without firsthand experience.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Maybe, but comparing fictional injustice to real world injustice is kind of the thing mutants do in the marvel universe
Complaints don't seem to be that it is an issue of scale but rather a misundersanding of remender's point, which is that mutant is used to mean not human
Some characters take it as more than human (scott, magneto) and others take it as less than human (senator kelly, most people really) but it seems to me that alex is rejecting a word used to other people with active x-genes in order to try and foster more acceptance
Though he doesn't offer an alternative ("call me alex" aside) and mutant is kind of weird for remender to focus on because the only other terms we have for mutants in the marvel universe are mutie which is already clearly a slur and homo superior which has at least as many problems as mutant
I can understand the speech and Remender had to know there would be backlash from a character statement like that, however I do believe that it neednt be as serious as it was. As it has been stated Mutant has always been a term of classification like white, black, or hispanic.
What has me thinking is now that a mutant is very publicly leading and speaking for the Avengers how are the various anit mutant organizations such as the purifiers going to react. The X-men were always seen as more of a black ops group never a real front page team (up until they went to san fran) but the avengers are in your face public. Whats going to happen when a squad of sentinels drop in at the Avengers next mission site.
The whole thing just reminds me of a scene on Top Gear where James May has a hard time saying the word "german" like he's still in 1943 and dealing with air raids, but there's really nothing wrong with the word as is, especially today.