Fraternal vs Identical does not have to do with appearances it has to do with how the twins are formed.
Identical twins are the result of a zygote splitting into two embryos and fraternal twins are the result of two eggs being fertilized at the same time.
However identical twins share the same genome, and that does result in them looking the same.
Fraternal twins, on the other hand, look no more alike than normal siblings, which can vary from looking damn near alike to not at all.
Fraternal vs Identical does not have to do with appearances it has to do with how the twins are formed.
Identical twins are the result of a zygote splitting into two embryos and fraternal twins are the result of two eggs being fertilized at the same time.
indeed I am aware! I was just shocked you couldn't tell if this other baby was identical.
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
When people quote this or that scientific "fact" about gender and strength and so on, often without citing sources, they generally talk about "averages". They try to stick to averages, not just to speak in generalities but also to avoid coming across as sexist or stating these ideas as absolute immutable facts, since that could easily be refuted by single examples of exceptional athletes. So people talk about "averages".
Well the thing is, professional athletes aren't average.
I don't think people talk about averages to avoid sounding sexist but because of the earlier point about making sure men and women can compete equally. That is, while it might be perfectly true that a female athlete can be just as tough as a male one the problem is that there are going to be far more men for every woman in any category.
Essentially, the point is that we don't want to exclude perfectly good female athletes due to the room at the top being occupied by male athletes. Take any sport and mix the male and female competitions together and you'd basically have to drop most of the female athletes.
Yes, professional athletes are outliers. That doesn't mean the outliers are equal though. Female basketball players are taller than the average woman, and probably also taller than the average man, but they're absolutely not just as tall as male basketball players.
...I don't know about anyone else, but I just straight-up wouldn't be comfortable with the prospect of having woman vs man combat sports, at least not in the context of our current culture where violence against women, often perpetrated by men, is a large issue. I have no doubt that many of the women competing in MMA could kick the snot out of many of the men in the same arena, but mixing the idea of, "See, this guy punching this girl is entertaining!" with the specter of guys who beat their spouses to death after coming home from the office doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
A congratulatory tweet to Jason Collins cost former Packers' safety LeRoy Butler $8,500 and a speaking engagement at a Wisconsin church.
Butler posted to his Twitter account "Congrats to Jason Collins" on Monday afternoon, after the story broke of the NBA player coming out in a Sports Illustrated cover story.
Citing a morals clause, that was enough for a church Butler wouldn't name to pull his $8,500 speaking engagement -- an anti-bullying presentation -- scheduled for this summer. Donations collected during the event were earmarked for the church's youth.
Butler said he refused to retract the statement and ask God for forgiveness as the church demanded if he wanted to keep the speaking appearance.
"FYI, the fee was 8500$,then I was told if i removed the tweet and apologize and ask god forgiveness, I can have the event," Butler said via Twitter (@leap36). "I said no."
In an interview with the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, Butler said he remains driven to be a role model and disagrees with the church's position because "Only God can judge." He repeated the statements to the church and said his tweet was not about religion or politics, but congratulations for a major decision in a man's life.
"This is a form of bullying, what you're doing," Butler told the pastor, according to the Journal-Sentinel. " You're trying to get me to do something I don't want to do."
Butler said the church didn't see things from his viewpoint.
"He disagreed, and I said, 'We agree to disagree' and he said 'No, I'm right and you're wrong.'
Looking at it more closely, I think it was the pastor saying that.
Gotta love people who confuse steadfast faith with pigheaded insistence that their bible interpretation is the single correct one.
This. Butler went with the highly commendable "I think you're wrong, but I'll respect your ability to think for yourself" approach, the Pastor went with the always successful "F U" approach
Except when it's the other way around, we say the pastor was being condescending and subtly judgmental, while Collins was forthright and firm in his rejection.
Except when it's the other way around, we say the pastor was being condescending and subtly judgmental, while Collins was forthright and firm in his rejection.
Eh, not really. I personally try not to vent my spleen at people who express their religion as a personal thing and not as THE THING that is a fact.
...I don't know about anyone else, but I just straight-up wouldn't be comfortable with the prospect of having woman vs man combat sports, at least not in the context of our current culture where violence against women, often perpetrated by men, is a large issue. I have no doubt that many of the women competing in MMA could kick the snot out of many of the men in the same arena, but mixing the idea of, "See, this guy punching this girl is entertaining!" with the specter of guys who beat their spouses to death after coming home from the office doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
Are you comfortable with "this guy punches this other guy, and that's entertaining!"?
Because based on the statistics of both the most common victims of violence and the perpetrators of violence (not just domestic violence!) opposing one while accepting the other doesn't really go anywhere useful. Violence between equally matched professionals is either acceptable entertainment, or its not. There's no sensible room for a middle ground where the appearance of one of those professionals could, conceivably, make the professional practice of the sport similar in apperance to certain forms of non-consentual violence, and thus unacceptable.
A congratulatory tweet to Jason Collins cost former Packers' safety LeRoy Butler $8,500 and a speaking engagement at a Wisconsin church.
Butler posted to his Twitter account "Congrats to Jason Collins" on Monday afternoon, after the story broke of the NBA player coming out in a Sports Illustrated cover story.
Citing a morals clause, that was enough for a church Butler wouldn't name to pull his $8,500 speaking engagement -- an anti-bullying presentation -- scheduled for this summer. Donations collected during the event were earmarked for the church's youth.
-snip-
The inability to perceive irony is fucking astounding.
Or would be, if it wasn't practically a modus operandi at this point.
I tend to think you can't get as big and fast as NFL players without doping if you're a man.
That's a joke. Here's a picture of Herschel Walker, a former NFL player turned MMA fighter who decided as a teenager to stop being overweight and started training using 1500 pushups and 2500+ situps a day along with sprints. That's primarily how he's worked out since then. He's like 50 years old now. Genetics are a huge thing, and guys who are NFL caliber athletes possess some of the best ones. It's insanely disrespectful to all athletes to act like all of them dope because some of them do.
Demarcus Ware, my favorite NFL player is one of the best role models in the NFL imo, and he finds new ways to work out every offseason to improve his game. Whether it's adding pilates and yoga to his weight lifting or whatever, it's just called hard work. You can achieve a hell of a lot if you have good genes and the work ethic it takes to become a professional athlete.
Herschel Walker played in the 80s.
Just for reference:
From 1920 to 1984, there were never more than eight players in any season who weighed 300 pounds or more. There were 570 players who weighed 300 or more listed on 2006 NFL training camp rosters, nearly 20 percent of all players.
There's more to this overwhelming increase in body mass, muscle and speed than just "these guys are working harder now"
Nearly 20% of all NFL players are over 300 pounds now, eh? And how much of an NFL roster is made up of offensive and defensive linemen? About 20 or 25%. And it's not uncommon knowledge that the athletes are getting bigger. Linemen eat more than they ever did. Most of these guys are not 300 pounds of lean mass. They're huge dudes who get pretty fat during their careers because that's the way the NFL has evolved.
Also, since 1984, training methods have gotten much better too. There's a reason NFL teams today have professional strength and conditioning coaches, nutritionists, and everything else working full time for them. As the NFL got bigger and bigger, teams had to find new ways to try to keep a competitive edge. As time goes on, athletes always improve. That's true of every sport. And it's not always because they're taking steroids. To think otherwise is laughable.
Here's a picture of Travis Frederick, a draft pick in this year's NFL draft. He's 6'4 312 pounds.
It's quite possible to get this big by eating a shitload of food, pushing weights around, and playing football. OMG steroids is not the answer every time somebody is big.
Butler should name the church. If I were part of an anti-bullying campaign or donating money I would want to know if that's how the organization acts.
As for Herschel Walker and doping...look at him in that picture. Incredibly ripped, low body fat, he is a freak. And look how little he is - arms, chest, legs, etc compared to any typical pro athlete today in the NFL. Hell, he would be small for an NBA guard.
When people have bulging muscles in their face, like half the big athletes today, that's not just training and nutrition.
Butler should name the church. If I were part of an anti-bullying campaign or donating money I would want to know if that's how the organization acts.
As for Herschel Walker and doping...look at him in that picture. Incredibly ripped, low body fat, he is a freak. And look how little he is - arms, chest, legs, etc compared to any typical pro athlete today in the NFL. Hell, he would be small for an NBA guard.
When people have bulging muscles in their face, like half the big athletes today, that's not just training and nutrition.
Honestly if that guy is on HGH, he hasn't been on it for long.
HGH makes your gut grow in a very obvious and impossible to hide way after using it for a while. It's not fat, and you can't hide it, it makes your organs grow along with everything else until it looks like you swallowed a turtle.
That is long term HGH use in a bodybuilder.
Note that Walker's stomach doesn't look even vaguely like he's getting that sort of bulge.
y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
I think his point was Walker wasn't doping, and that while he's still a crazy physical specimen he's nothing compared to guys nowadays, presumably who do
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
I think his point was Walker wasn't doping, and that while he's still a crazy physical specimen he's nothing compared to guys nowadays, presumably who do
I think his point was Walker wasn't doping, and that while he's still a crazy physical specimen he's nothing compared to guys nowadays, presumably who do
This was exactly my point. Sorry I wasn't clearer - I think Walker is an amazing and probably natural specimen (although I wouldn't be surprised if he had juiced as a pro, even if just to heal faster from on-field injuries).
When you get guys who look like Walker coming out of college, and they have added 30 or more pounds of pure muscle by the end of their rookie seasons...that's a lot more than 'better training and nutrition'.
I know that the college to pro transition also coincides with some of the final changes into adulthood that make it a bit easier to start putting on muscle, but there really are limits to how much hard work can do (especially when too much hard work is counterproductive...without artificially faster healing).
Then you've got the skinny / small guys who are well into their career and suddenly balloon up (aka Barry Bonds syndrome)...
When pretty much every sport that has actually gotten close scrutiny - cycling, track / field, baseball, hell - even body-building and pro-wrestling finds that juicing / doping is pretty much universal among top performers, I find it hard to believe that the sports that haven't gotten that close scrutiny are any different.
Butler should name the church. If I were part of an anti-bullying campaign or donating money I would want to know if that's how the organization acts.
As for Herschel Walker and doping...look at him in that picture. Incredibly ripped, low body fat, he is a freak. And look how little he is - arms, chest, legs, etc compared to any typical pro athlete today in the NFL. Hell, he would be small for an NBA guard.
When people have bulging muscles in their face, like half the big athletes today, that's not just training and nutrition.
Herein is part of the hilarity. You think Herschel Walker looks small in that picture. In reality, he's about 6'2 225 pounds. That's how big he was when he played in the NFL too. There's nothing small about that. If you saw him in person he'd look like one of his arms is bigger than your head. 225 pounds of muscle is not a small person.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of guys in the NFL who have used and are still using PEDs now, obviously. Every sport has this. I was merely rebutting a post from earlier in the thread where somebody said they didn't believe people can be as big as NFL athletes without doping. That statement is a joke.
I'm thinking this "gender equality in sports" sub-topic should probably be made it's own topic where it can get the discussion it deserves, no?
Feel free to start one. While the topic is tangental to this thread, understand that when we talk about "gays in sports" we are also talking about transgendered persons, as they are part of the big gay alphabet soup.
And when you start talking about transgendered persons in sports, you cannot not talk about gender. So a tangent, yeah sure, but it's not a non-sequitor. It's not a conversation that makes no sense in regards to the topic. It is a clearly natural thing for the discussion to cross over with.
Butler should name the church. If I were part of an anti-bullying campaign or donating money I would want to know if that's how the organization acts.
As for Herschel Walker and doping...look at him in that picture. Incredibly ripped, low body fat, he is a freak. And look how little he is - arms, chest, legs, etc compared to any typical pro athlete today in the NFL. Hell, he would be small for an NBA guard.
When people have bulging muscles in their face, like half the big athletes today, that's not just training and nutrition.
Herein is part of the hilarity. You think Herschel Walker looks small in that picture. In reality, he's about 6'2 225 pounds. That's how big he was when he played in the NFL too. There's nothing small about that. If you saw him in person he'd look like one of his arms is bigger than your head. 225 pounds of muscle is not a small person.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of guys in the NFL who have used and are still using PEDs now, obviously. Every sport has this. I was merely rebutting a post from earlier in the thread where somebody said they didn't believe people can be as big as NFL athletes without doping. That statement is a joke.
Let's get back on topic and stop just typing replies for no purpose other than attempting to be smug.
I really hope that Collins' coming out is a catalyst and that an NFL player will come out, just because the sport is so much more relevant than basketball now.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Burtletoy, your posting on this page impresses me not at all. Bring it up to the level of discourse we expect for this forum.
How could we have become so different, @Burtletoy? Why can we no longer understand each other? What did we do wrong? Infracted @Burtletoy (2 points for 30 days) for "violating the Glorious Edict"
The women's 100m world record is a 10.49 with some wind related controversy, 10.61 without it. Flo-Jo, both times, for reference.
CJ Spiller ran a 10.22.
Since you're a sports fan I think you probably realize this but just in case and for those that aren't:
That's a really big difference.
Men and women are ethically and morally equal axiomatically.
Men and women are intellectually equivalent according to essentially all research (with some difference possible in certain areas, but nature vs nurture obscuring whether or not that's intrinsic).
Men and women are not physically equal. This is common in nature as male and females fulfilled different roles in species survival. Pony's argument is just incorrect.
Well, the scientific evidence for an intrinsic, insurmountable physical edge for men over women in sports is dubious at best. Studies of average male and female strength and muscle mass and body fat percentages are largely meaningless because professional athletes are not average. A meaningful scientific study would have to be conducted by professional athletes of similar training levels, size, experience, height, weight, etc.
This ignores how populations are distributed.
For the sake of argument say we could draw "athleticism" as a normal distribution and where the female peak was at F and male at M, where M=F+X.
And let's say a pro male athlete is 4.4 standard deviations to the right (or 1/100,000 or ~1.5K pro athletes in the US). If X is a standard deviation (meaning roughly 1/3 females are more athletic than the average male) then there's maybe 15 women who could compete at that level. If X is 2 standard deviations, then we're talking 1/4 of a female in the entire world (1 in 10,000,000,000).
For human height, US males average 70 inches with a std deviation of 2.9 and US females average 64 inches with a std deviation of 2.75. (or a bit more than 2 std deviations different). Handgrip strength its roughly 3-4 standard deviations. Most measures along these lines are closer to than the 1 you'd need to justify any probability of a female athlete existing that would be sufficiently far to the right to be at an elite male athlete level.
So where your distribution is centered really does matter a lot, because if a member of one population needs to be fairly exceptional to get to the average of another, its incredibly unlikely they will be able to match the exceptional members of another population. The only way it would be probable is if the first population had much greater variability and if anything evidence suggests males may have (maybe possibly theoretically) greater variability than females.
He got himself fired for writing a crappy article that made it clear he hadn't even bothered to read the story he was criticizing thoroughly.
Getting fired over it seems slightly harsh, but then, TDB's press release doesn't say "we fired this guy because he is awful" but rather that they let him go because they have much better people.
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However identical twins share the same genome, and that does result in them looking the same.
Fraternal twins, on the other hand, look no more alike than normal siblings, which can vary from looking damn near alike to not at all.
indeed I am aware! I was just shocked you couldn't tell if this other baby was identical.
I don't think people talk about averages to avoid sounding sexist but because of the earlier point about making sure men and women can compete equally. That is, while it might be perfectly true that a female athlete can be just as tough as a male one the problem is that there are going to be far more men for every woman in any category.
Essentially, the point is that we don't want to exclude perfectly good female athletes due to the room at the top being occupied by male athletes. Take any sport and mix the male and female competitions together and you'd basically have to drop most of the female athletes.
Yes, professional athletes are outliers. That doesn't mean the outliers are equal though. Female basketball players are taller than the average woman, and probably also taller than the average man, but they're absolutely not just as tall as male basketball players.
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Gotta love people who confuse steadfast faith with pigheaded insistence that their bible interpretation is the single correct one.
This. Butler went with the highly commendable "I think you're wrong, but I'll respect your ability to think for yourself" approach, the Pastor went with the always successful "F U" approach
Eh, not really. I personally try not to vent my spleen at people who express their religion as a personal thing and not as THE THING that is a fact.
Because based on the statistics of both the most common victims of violence and the perpetrators of violence (not just domestic violence!) opposing one while accepting the other doesn't really go anywhere useful. Violence between equally matched professionals is either acceptable entertainment, or its not. There's no sensible room for a middle ground where the appearance of one of those professionals could, conceivably, make the professional practice of the sport similar in apperance to certain forms of non-consentual violence, and thus unacceptable.
The inability to perceive irony is fucking astounding.
Or would be, if it wasn't practically a modus operandi at this point.
Alternative post: cycling
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As for Herschel Walker and doping...look at him in that picture. Incredibly ripped, low body fat, he is a freak. And look how little he is - arms, chest, legs, etc compared to any typical pro athlete today in the NFL. Hell, he would be small for an NBA guard.
When people have bulging muscles in their face, like half the big athletes today, that's not just training and nutrition.
Honestly if that guy is on HGH, he hasn't been on it for long.
HGH makes your gut grow in a very obvious and impossible to hide way after using it for a while. It's not fat, and you can't hide it, it makes your organs grow along with everything else until it looks like you swallowed a turtle.
That is long term HGH use in a bodybuilder.
Note that Walker's stomach doesn't look even vaguely like he's getting that sort of bulge.
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
I see.
This was exactly my point. Sorry I wasn't clearer - I think Walker is an amazing and probably natural specimen (although I wouldn't be surprised if he had juiced as a pro, even if just to heal faster from on-field injuries).
When you get guys who look like Walker coming out of college, and they have added 30 or more pounds of pure muscle by the end of their rookie seasons...that's a lot more than 'better training and nutrition'.
I know that the college to pro transition also coincides with some of the final changes into adulthood that make it a bit easier to start putting on muscle, but there really are limits to how much hard work can do (especially when too much hard work is counterproductive...without artificially faster healing).
Then you've got the skinny / small guys who are well into their career and suddenly balloon up (aka Barry Bonds syndrome)...
When pretty much every sport that has actually gotten close scrutiny - cycling, track / field, baseball, hell - even body-building and pro-wrestling finds that juicing / doping is pretty much universal among top performers, I find it hard to believe that the sports that haven't gotten that close scrutiny are any different.
OH MY GAWD THERES A WHOLE ONE OF THEM NOW
Herein is part of the hilarity. You think Herschel Walker looks small in that picture. In reality, he's about 6'2 225 pounds. That's how big he was when he played in the NFL too. There's nothing small about that. If you saw him in person he'd look like one of his arms is bigger than your head. 225 pounds of muscle is not a small person.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of guys in the NFL who have used and are still using PEDs now, obviously. Every sport has this. I was merely rebutting a post from earlier in the thread where somebody said they didn't believe people can be as big as NFL athletes without doping. That statement is a joke.
Feel free to start one. While the topic is tangental to this thread, understand that when we talk about "gays in sports" we are also talking about transgendered persons, as they are part of the big gay alphabet soup.
And when you start talking about transgendered persons in sports, you cannot not talk about gender. So a tangent, yeah sure, but it's not a non-sequitor. It's not a conversation that makes no sense in regards to the topic. It is a clearly natural thing for the discussion to cross over with.
Yes. Yes it was. Did you just get it right now?
Nothing in that quote indicates the poster meant it as a joke. If they did, it was a poorly worded joke.
Asshole.
I really hope that Collins' coming out is a catalyst and that an NFL player will come out, just because the sport is so much more relevant than basketball now.
Geth, infract Burtletoy for violating the Glorious Edict.
Infracted @Burtletoy (2 points for 30 days) for "violating the Glorious Edict"
That's a really big difference.
Men and women are ethically and morally equal axiomatically.
Men and women are intellectually equivalent according to essentially all research (with some difference possible in certain areas, but nature vs nurture obscuring whether or not that's intrinsic).
Men and women are not physically equal. This is common in nature as male and females fulfilled different roles in species survival. Pony's argument is just incorrect. This ignores how populations are distributed.
For the sake of argument say we could draw "athleticism" as a normal distribution and where the female peak was at F and male at M, where M=F+X.
And let's say a pro male athlete is 4.4 standard deviations to the right (or 1/100,000 or ~1.5K pro athletes in the US). If X is a standard deviation (meaning roughly 1/3 females are more athletic than the average male) then there's maybe 15 women who could compete at that level. If X is 2 standard deviations, then we're talking 1/4 of a female in the entire world (1 in 10,000,000,000).
For human height, US males average 70 inches with a std deviation of 2.9 and US females average 64 inches with a std deviation of 2.75. (or a bit more than 2 std deviations different). Handgrip strength its roughly 3-4 standard deviations. Most measures along these lines are closer to than the 1 you'd need to justify any probability of a female athlete existing that would be sufficiently far to the right to be at an elite male athlete level.
So where your distribution is centered really does matter a lot, because if a member of one population needs to be fairly exceptional to get to the average of another, its incredibly unlikely they will be able to match the exceptional members of another population. The only way it would be probable is if the first population had much greater variability and if anything evidence suggests males may have (maybe possibly theoretically) greater variability than females.
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He got Howard Kurtz fired.
He got himself fired for writing a crappy article that made it clear he hadn't even bothered to read the story he was criticizing thoroughly.
Getting fired over it seems slightly harsh, but then, TDB's press release doesn't say "we fired this guy because he is awful" but rather that they let him go because they have much better people.