Heh, you guys should play Chrono Cross. It adds an additional layer of 'Bwah?' to the whole time thing with duplicate worlds thing.
Great game, though.
That's part of why I haven't, actually. I don't particularly like what I've heard about what they've done with the Crono universe (especially regarding the original cast). I think I'll still give it a shot someday, as I would like to give it a shot, but I must admit I already have a bias against it.
Heh, you guys should play Chrono Cross. It adds an additional layer of 'Bwah?' to the whole time thing with duplicate worlds thing.
Great game, though.
That's part of why I haven't, actually. I don't particularly like what I've heard about what they've done with the Crono universe (especially regarding the original cast). I think I'll still give it a shot someday, as I would like to give it a shot, but I must admit I already have a bias against it.
Don't let other people scare you off. The only real problem with the game is the enormous cast. Aside from that, it still feels very much like a suitable successor to CT. And the original cast are really only in for a short cameo.
Plus, it's one of the last PSX RPGs that doesn't cost a goddamn fortune to find. Seriously, why the hell does FF7 go for $70+ on eBay? The game sold five million copies. It's not in any way rare.
Heh, you guys should play Chrono Cross. It adds an additional layer of 'Bwah?' to the whole time thing with duplicate worlds thing.
Great game, though.
That's part of why I haven't, actually. I don't particularly like what I've heard about what they've done with the Crono universe (especially regarding the original cast). I think I'll still give it a shot someday, as I would like to give it a shot, but I must admit I already have a bias against it.
Don't let other people scare you off. The only real problem with the game is the enormous cast. Aside from that, it still feels very much like a suitable successor to CT. And the original cast are really only in for a short cameo.
Plus, it's one of the last PSX RPGs that doesn't cost a goddamn fortune to find. Seriously, why the hell does FF7 go for $70+ on eBay? The game sold five million copies. It's not in any way rare.
I know that they don't figure in heavily to the storyline, but it's how they're featured that really annoys me.
Everyone's dead? How the hell does that even happen? Crono, Marle and Lucca are not exactly pushovers. Crono took down Lavos, I think he can hold off the invasion from Porre.
And I don't see how it can feel like a proper successor to Chrono Trigger, which has one of the best balanced cast of characters out there, when it has such a gigantic roster.
Heh, you guys should play Chrono Cross. It adds an additional layer of 'Bwah?' to the whole time thing with duplicate worlds thing.
Great game, though.
That's part of why I haven't, actually. I don't particularly like what I've heard about what they've done with the Crono universe (especially regarding the original cast). I think I'll still give it a shot someday, as I would like to give it a shot, but I must admit I already have a bias against it.
Don't let other people scare you off. The only real problem with the game is the enormous cast. Aside from that, it still feels very much like a suitable successor to CT. And the original cast are really only in for a short cameo.
Plus, it's one of the last PSX RPGs that doesn't cost a goddamn fortune to find. Seriously, why the hell does FF7 go for $70+ on eBay? The game sold five million copies. It's not in any way rare.
I know that they don't figure in heavily to the storyline, but it's how they're featured that really annoys me.
Everyone's dead? How the hell does that even happen? Crono, Marle and Lucca are not exactly pushovers. Crono took down Lavos, I think he can hold off the invasion from Porre.
And I don't see how it can feel like a proper successor to Chrono Trigger, which has one of the best balanced cast of characters out there, when it has such a gigantic roster.
That's why I said aside from that. Obviously the roster wasn't the only thing CT had going for it.
I thought they died from the Masamune or something? Shit, it's been a while. Time to replay it or something.
Heh, you guys should play Chrono Cross. It adds an additional layer of 'Bwah?' to the whole time thing with duplicate worlds thing.
Great game, though.
That's part of why I haven't, actually. I don't particularly like what I've heard about what they've done with the Crono universe (especially regarding the original cast). I think I'll still give it a shot someday, as I would like to give it a shot, but I must admit I already have a bias against it.
Don't let other people scare you off. The only real problem with the game is the enormous cast. Aside from that, it still feels very much like a suitable successor to CT. And the original cast are really only in for a short cameo.
Plus, it's one of the last PSX RPGs that doesn't cost a goddamn fortune to find. Seriously, why the hell does FF7 go for $70+ on eBay? The game sold five million copies. It's not in any way rare.
I know that they don't figure in heavily to the storyline, but it's how they're featured that really annoys me.
Everyone's dead? How the hell does that even happen? Crono, Marle and Lucca are not exactly pushovers. Crono took down Lavos, I think he can hold off the invasion from Porre.
And I don't see how it can feel like a proper successor to Chrono Trigger, which has one of the best balanced cast of characters out there, when it has such a gigantic roster.
You haven't played the game, so I excuse you for not thinking other dimensionally. There is no proof either way to the fates of those three in the regular timeline of that game. We do know that Guardia fell and the Masamune was taken (from the CT port ending cinematics) and we know from Chrono Cross of an event that might have killed of one of them, but then we hear that she has been in contact with other people since then, so there you have it. I can only think of one conclusive "Yeah, this fucker from CT is dead moment" in CC.
Heh, you guys should play Chrono Cross. It adds an additional layer of 'Bwah?' to the whole time thing with duplicate worlds thing.
Great game, though.
That's part of why I haven't, actually. I don't particularly like what I've heard about what they've done with the Crono universe (especially regarding the original cast). I think I'll still give it a shot someday, as I would like to give it a shot, but I must admit I already have a bias against it.
Don't let other people scare you off. The only real problem with the game is the enormous cast. Aside from that, it still feels very much like a suitable successor to CT. And the original cast are really only in for a short cameo.
Plus, it's one of the last PSX RPGs that doesn't cost a goddamn fortune to find. Seriously, why the hell does FF7 go for $70+ on eBay? The game sold five million copies. It's not in any way rare.
I know that they don't figure in heavily to the storyline, but it's how they're featured that really annoys me.
Everyone's dead? How the hell does that even happen? Crono, Marle and Lucca are not exactly pushovers. Crono took down Lavos, I think he can hold off the invasion from Porre.
And I don't see how it can feel like a proper successor to Chrono Trigger, which has one of the best balanced cast of characters out there, when it has such a gigantic roster.
You haven't played the game, so I excuse you for not thinking other dimensionally. There is no proof either way to the fates of those three in the regular timeline of that game. We do know that Guardia fell and the Masamune was taken (from the CT port ending cinematics) and we know from Chrono Cross of an event that might have killed of one of them, but then we hear that she has been in contact with other people since then, so there you have it. I can only think of one conclusive "Yeah, this fucker from CT is dead moment" in CC.
Well, alright then. The way I had heard it it sounded like they were basically all just dead except for Magus, either through age other events, regardless of which of the timelines presented you're dealing with.
Warlock: Yeah, you did say aside from that. But I really feel like the cast and their stories was the defining element of Chrono Trigger. The sidequests at the end are my favorite part of the whole game. I just don't think a game really can have the same feel as Chrono Trigger did without a solid cast.
Heh, you guys should play Chrono Cross. It adds an additional layer of 'Bwah?' to the whole time thing with duplicate worlds thing.
Great game, though.
That's part of why I haven't, actually. I don't particularly like what I've heard about what they've done with the Crono universe (especially regarding the original cast). I think I'll still give it a shot someday, as I would like to give it a shot, but I must admit I already have a bias against it.
Don't let other people scare you off. The only real problem with the game is the enormous cast. Aside from that, it still feels very much like a suitable successor to CT. And the original cast are really only in for a short cameo.
Plus, it's one of the last PSX RPGs that doesn't cost a goddamn fortune to find. Seriously, why the hell does FF7 go for $70+ on eBay? The game sold five million copies. It's not in any way rare.
I know that they don't figure in heavily to the storyline, but it's how they're featured that really annoys me.
Everyone's dead? How the hell does that even happen? Crono, Marle and Lucca are not exactly pushovers. Crono took down Lavos, I think he can hold off the invasion from Porre.
And I don't see how it can feel like a proper successor to Chrono Trigger, which has one of the best balanced cast of characters out there, when it has such a gigantic roster.
You haven't played the game, so I excuse you for not thinking other dimensionally. There is no proof either way to the fates of those three in the regular timeline of that game. We do know that Guardia fell and the Masamune was taken (from the CT port ending cinematics) and we know from Chrono Cross of an event that might have killed of one of them, but then we hear that she has been in contact with other people since then, so there you have it. I can only think of one conclusive "Yeah, this fucker from CT is dead moment" in CC.
Well, alright then. The way I had heard it it sounded like they were basically all just dead except for Magus, either through age other events, regardless of which of the timelines presented you're dealing with.
Warlock: Yeah, you did say aside from that. But I really feel like the cast and their stories was the defining element of Chrono Trigger. The sidequests at the end are my favorite part of the whole game. I just don't think a game really can have the same feel as Chrono Trigger did without a solid cast.
I always liked the aspect of being thrown into a strange land under strange circumstances and figuring out how to unfuck your situation as the defining element of Chrono Trigger/Cross. Maybe it was just me.
Heh, you guys should play Chrono Cross. It adds an additional layer of 'Bwah?' to the whole time thing with duplicate worlds thing.
Great game, though.
That's part of why I haven't, actually. I don't particularly like what I've heard about what they've done with the Crono universe (especially regarding the original cast). I think I'll still give it a shot someday, as I would like to give it a shot, but I must admit I already have a bias against it.
Don't let other people scare you off. The only real problem with the game is the enormous cast. Aside from that, it still feels very much like a suitable successor to CT. And the original cast are really only in for a short cameo.
Plus, it's one of the last PSX RPGs that doesn't cost a goddamn fortune to find. Seriously, why the hell does FF7 go for $70+ on eBay? The game sold five million copies. It's not in any way rare.
I know that they don't figure in heavily to the storyline, but it's how they're featured that really annoys me.
Everyone's dead? How the hell does that even happen? Crono, Marle and Lucca are not exactly pushovers. Crono took down Lavos, I think he can hold off the invasion from Porre.
And I don't see how it can feel like a proper successor to Chrono Trigger, which has one of the best balanced cast of characters out there, when it has such a gigantic roster.
You haven't played the game, so I excuse you for not thinking other dimensionally. There is no proof either way to the fates of those three in the regular timeline of that game. We do know that Guardia fell and the Masamune was taken (from the CT port ending cinematics) and we know from Chrono Cross of an event that might have killed of one of them, but then we hear that she has been in contact with other people since then, so there you have it. I can only think of one conclusive "Yeah, this fucker from CT is dead moment" in CC.
Well, alright then. The way I had heard it it sounded like they were basically all just dead except for Magus, either through age other events, regardless of which of the timelines presented you're dealing with.
Warlock: Yeah, you did say aside from that. But I really feel like the cast and their stories was the defining element of Chrono Trigger. The sidequests at the end are my favorite part of the whole game. I just don't think a game really can have the same feel as Chrono Trigger did without a solid cast.
Chrono Cross is worth a playthrough, stat. Not only does it have a far, far, far, far, far more complex plot that actually makes a lot of the Theories at the Compendium completely credible, it's also a great game. Also, due to the fact that it's written by Masato Kato(who understands time-travelling and dimensional-travelling moreso than Yuji Horii ever could) it is a far more epic tale that has an absolute fuckton of content.
I agree that the melchoir example is kind of convoluted (and I don't think its the best example either). However again the timeline can ONLY know the past IF the past is fixed. Since the entire point of the game is changing the timeline, the timeline is by definition, not fixed. Thus, when Ayla enters a time portal to the future, there has to be some kind of explanation on why she doesn't disappear from history at that moment.
That's true, but the explanation that there's another version of the person who is there while the person is gone from the timeline doesn't sit right. For one thing, that would mean that if the character never were to return to their proper time, that would be an addition of matter to the universe. If Ayla leaves 16 million BC and she is replaced by another her, then she goes off and dies in 2300 AD that means that the timeline gains an extra Ayla. You could have someone grow up multiple times within one timeline if that worked.
Besides, it's specifically shown that Crono, Lucca, and Marle disappeared from 1000 AD and that there wasn't anyone else there to replace them. The Chancellor chases them down then freaks out because 3 teenagers vanish before his eyes, remember? Maybe the reason that this is never a problem is simply because of that Time Traveler protection. Crono is specifically referenced as important to the timeline in the game, so maybe the basic setup behind Crono's life is specially protected, so that no matter what happens 1000 AD will remain essentially the same so that his entry to the first time portal will be unchanged- thereby requiring Marle and Lucca to be the same as well.
Or, it could be that the reason that time isn't changed is because nobody in their group and nothing they do is important enough to endanger the timeline pre-1000 AD. I never really thought about it before... but how do we know Ayla doesn't already have a kid? She and Kino could just be terrible parents. Maybe the cavepeople use nannies. She and Kino don't really have time to raise children anyway.
My understanding of the theories presented is that the act of returning to the past changes the time line to accommodate you being gone. IE you leave for the future, somehow the time line continues as if you stayed in the past (ie the future is more or less how you expect it to be if you lived your life normally). This is the 'duplicate'. When you return to the past, the time line changes to remove you for the period you were in the future (so you are no longer present in the recent past from the perspective of anyone you talk to in the present). This is the time travelers immunity... the person time traveling gets to be the one the time line is 'rewritten' around. An addendum to this is that if something happens that prevents the time traveler from returning to their normal time, the time line is rewritten at that point that they do not return.
This is all very convoluted and is trying to make a semi workable theory of time travel in a game that isn't always logically consistent, but its all in good fun. I mostly continue posting about it because I think its makes for interesting discussion.
Well, yeah, I'm not exactly taking this personally myself.
Really, though, this Time Bastard theory is not working out for me. I assumed that Time Bastard involved the timeline being rewritten upon return to indicate their absence. However, that still leaves the problem of what happens if they never do. That either means that there's just an extra copy of the traveller added into the timeline, or that the whole theory is pointless because the timeline is changed to reflect their absence if they don't return.
I'm beginning to kinda see how it works. But I also think that's it's still rather shitty, and with a few story tweaks, they could have avoided such a thing completely.
The perfect way to explain this is with Magus/Janus. In the original, Janus walked in on Lavos waking up and got sent to 600 AD. Being rightfully fucking pissed off about this, he used his powerful magic to gain more power in order to summon Lavos himself and get some payback. Until Crono comes along, fucks his plan up, and sends him back to 12000 BC. He tries again to kill Lavos, fails, and then joins our little party.
Now, new timeline. Instead of walking ino the event, he's now down on the surface with Melchior. The event happens as usual, but Janus is sent to 600 AD anyways. The earthbound elder actually witnesses this and says as much. Now Magus' backstory is totally changed. Little Janus isn't pissed off at Lavos and wants revenge. No, little Janus is wondering how in the holy hell he got shot into a forest surrounded by monsters and Ozzie. Well, what happens to our Magus in our party? Shouldn't he disappear, or change or something? Shouldn't time be completely changed, because it's unlikely that this new Janus would ever grow up to be Magus with the exact same agendas? Well, it doesn't, because I guess down the line, new Janus eventually gets turfed somewhere, and old Magus gets to keep existing.
Once that finally clicked, my respect for the story dropped a notch, because it's totally convoluted and stupid. They could have simply kept with the theme of the era, that history just couldn't be changed, and have Janus and the Guru's come in anyways after Lavos wipes out the party. Instead, they change it, and now you have to explain why old Magus gets to stay in your party despite his entire life history being changed.
...At least, I think that's what this theory is referring to. I mean, it's been proven in dialog countless times that when Crono, Marle, and Lucca go off wherever, they're gone and not being replaced by duplicates. Otherwise, the chancellor freaking out, or shit, the entire premise of the trial wouldn't happen.
The Wolfman on
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
I agree that the melchoir example is kind of convoluted (and I don't think its the best example either). However again the timeline can ONLY know the past IF the past is fixed. Since the entire point of the game is changing the timeline, the timeline is by definition, not fixed. Thus, when Ayla enters a time portal to the future, there has to be some kind of explanation on why she doesn't disappear from history at that moment.
That's true, but the explanation that there's another version of the person who is there while the person is gone from the timeline doesn't sit right. For one thing, that would mean that if the character never were to return to their proper time, that would be an addition of matter to the universe. If Ayla leaves 16 million BC and she is replaced by another her, then she goes off and dies in 2300 AD that means that the timeline gains an extra Ayla. You could have someone grow up multiple times within one timeline if that worked.
Besides, it's specifically shown that Crono, Lucca, and Marle disappeared from 1000 AD and that there wasn't anyone else there to replace them. The Chancellor chases them down then freaks out because 3 teenagers vanish before his eyes, remember? Maybe the reason that this is never a problem is simply because of that Time Traveler protection. Crono is specifically referenced as important to the timeline in the game, so maybe the basic setup behind Crono's life is specially protected, so that no matter what happens 1000 AD will remain essentially the same so that his entry to the first time portal will be unchanged- thereby requiring Marle and Lucca to be the same as well.
Or, it could be that the reason that time isn't changed is because nobody in their group and nothing they do is important enough to endanger the timeline pre-1000 AD. I never really thought about it before... but how do we know Ayla doesn't already have a kid? She and Kino could just be terrible parents. Maybe the cavepeople use nannies. She and Kino don't really have time to raise children anyway.
My understanding of the theories presented is that the act of returning to the past changes the time line to accommodate you being gone. IE you leave for the future, somehow the time line continues as if you stayed in the past (ie the future is more or less how you expect it to be if you lived your life normally). This is the 'duplicate'. When you return to the past, the time line changes to remove you for the period you were in the future (so you are no longer present in the recent past from the perspective of anyone you talk to in the present). This is the time travelers immunity... the person time traveling gets to be the one the time line is 'rewritten' around. An addendum to this is that if something happens that prevents the time traveler from returning to their normal time, the time line is rewritten at that point that they do not return.
This is all very convoluted and is trying to make a semi workable theory of time travel in a game that isn't always logically consistent, but its all in good fun. I mostly continue posting about it because I think its makes for interesting discussion.
Well, yeah, I'm not exactly taking this personally myself.
Really, though, this Time Bastard theory is not working out for me. I assumed that Time Bastard involved the timeline being rewritten upon return to indicate their absence. However, that still leaves the problem of what happens if they never do. That either means that there's just an extra copy of the traveller added into the timeline, or that the whole theory is pointless because the timeline is changed to reflect their absence if they don't return.
I'm beginning to kinda see how it works. But I also think that's it's still rather shitty, and with a few story tweaks, they could have avoided such a thing completely.
The perfect way to explain this is with Magus/Janus. In the original, Janus walked in on Lavos waking up and got sent to 600 AD. Being rightfully fucking pissed off about this, he used his powerful magic to gain more power in order to summon Lavos himself and get some payback. Until Crono comes along, fucks his plan up, and sends him back to 12000 BC. He tries again to kill Lavos, fails, and then joins our little party.
Now, new timeline. Instead of walking ino the event, he's now down on the surface with Melchior. The event happens as usual, but Janus is sent to 600 AD anyways. The earthbound elder actually witnesses this and says as much. Now Magus' backstory is totally changed. Little Janus isn't pissed off at Lavos and wants revenge. No, little Janus is wondering how in the holy hell he got shot into a forest surrounded by monsters and Ozzie. Well, what happens to our Magus in our party? Shouldn't he disappear, or change or something? Shouldn't time be completely changed, because it's unlikely that this new Janus would ever grow up to be Magus with the exact same agendas? Well, it doesn't, because I guess down the line, new Janus eventually gets turfed somewhere, and old Magus gets to keep existing.
Once that finally clicked, my respect for the story dropped a notch, because it's totally convoluted and stupid. They could have simply kept with the theme of the era, that history just couldn't be changed, and have Janus and the Guru's come in anyways after Lavos wipes out the party. Instead, they change it, and now you have to explain why old Magus gets to stay in your party despite his entire life history being changed.
...At least, I think that's what this theory is referring to. I mean, it's been proven in dialog countless times that when Crono, Marle, and Lucca go off wherever, they're gone and not being replaced by duplicates. Otherwise, the chancellor freaking out, or shit, the entire premise of the trial wouldn't happen.
Well, that fits with the time traveler's immunity bit, but that still doesn't explain the idea of a duplicate version of the traveler showing up to replace the one who left. In fact, what you just described is exactly the opposite- someone leaving to ensure that they are gone when they are supposed to be according to the timeline of the original traveler.
Of course, I'm very tired and hungry right now, and will not likely have my mental capacity back for at least an hour or two, so I may be mixing something up. Truth be told, at the moment I can't even remember what exactly does happen after freeing the guru off the top of my head right now (I'm sure it'll come back to me in a bit).
Time is linear, in CT and CC both. You're overcomplicating it, imagining duplicates and everything.
After Lavos has landed in 65 million BC, destroying the Reptites, you cannot take a waygate or the Epoch back to before he landed. Only after. The waygates, the epoch, whatever mode of entry you use to enter a certain era, all move forward in time, in respect to some universal clock. This is why you cannot go back to change events, after you have already effected or witnessed them. So, for CT, time is linear.
Ayla does not need some magical duplicate to appear to hold together the time-line for Marle, her descendant, to be born. She left 65 million BC, she spent several... weeks, we'll say, off fighting in other time eras and defeating Lavos, and then, several weeks from when she left 65 million BC, she comes back, has babies, and lives out her life. You do not need a magical fucking duplicate doing stuff in 65 million BC for those weeks that she is absent.
If Lavos were defeated in all timelines, in all parallel timelines even, then the only timeline possible would be the Dragon's world, wherein Reptites were never driven extinct by his landing, and humanity was ruthlessly crushed. He was defeated in 1999 AD, when he surfaced to destroy the world, and spawn more Lavoids, erasing the timeline of 2300 AD in all likelihood. No pocket dimension explanation is needed.
Janus's motivation is the same, whether he was sucked out of the Last Village, or out of the Ocean Palace. Save his sister. Nothing has to change in the timeline for him. He still grew up, started the war, had his attempt to destroy Lavos interfered with by Crono and company, was sucked back, became the Prophet, joined the party, etc.
Chrono Cross is a fun game. But the plot was so convoluted. And the secret ending? Such a disappointment.
Yes, there IS a Pocket Dimension needed to explain Lavos, as his appearance in multiple timelines wouldn't occur otherwise. This is proven when you defeat the shell in one timeline in the future, and visit him in the past to have it be gone as well. In his pocket dimension, Lavos exhibits his own time stream. The events of Chrono Cross completely fuck this balance up, because in the game, Lavos is defeated and sent to the Darkness Beyond Time.
So let's just stick to Chrono Trigger mechanics, please.
From the Compendium:
This lastly brings us to the nature of Lavos's temporal powers and existence. Lavos seems to exert certain powers over time and space, able to create distortions and disruptions. Lavos created the anomalistic gates that neutralized the Gurus and Janus in the Lavos timeline, presumably caused the massive distortion at Magus's Lair, and also seems to perpetrate other effects consisting of a blue field around the being. Lavos's powers and other irregularities are adeptly explained by the Pocket Dimension theory, supplemented by Time Error. The theory appears here, taken from Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel.
Lavos displays some strange behavior. If the travelers defeat the shell and warp into the past, the shell is still defeated. A strange blue aura surrounds Lavos during the Ocean Palace disaster and the final battle. Lavos Core is able to open time warps to different eras. Lavos also appears to have knowledge of the future; during the final battle it emulate the fighting techniques of Guardian, which exists in 2300 AD. A possible explanation is that Lavos exists within a pocket dimension or "time bubble" which transcends time. When Lavos arrived on earth in 65 million BC, it created a pocket dimension separate from normal space time. A wormhole connects the pocket dimension to every time period. This pocket dimension would exhibit a flow of Time Error; Lavos could access any time period he wished from the wormhole, and would remain constant no matter which era his pocket dimension might be accessed from. Lavos' time axis would be perpendicular to the normal flow of time. Lavos ages within the pocket dimension at a normal rate, but it appears to be the same from any given time period. For example, if Lavos had existed within the pocket dimension for six million years, it would appear to be six million years old from every time period. Anything done to Lavos from one time period, such as defeating the core, would be visible from all other time periods as well. Therefore, if the shell is defeated, Lavos appears to have no shell from each time period.
Lavos is not actually physically present within the earth. The wormhole aperture is located at the earth's core, giving Lavos access to the planet's energy and lifeforms. During the Day of Lavos or the Ocean Palace disaster, the wormhole ascends to the surface, causing a dimensional disturbance. The wormhole offers an uninterrupted view of the pocket dimension, creating the illusion of Lavos' presence. If one approaches Lavos, and passes through the wormhole, the interior of the pocket dimension has appearance of the blue aura which surrounds Lavos. During the Ocean Palace Disaster, Queen Zeal, Magus and the others warp into the pocket dimension. During the final battle, Crono battles Lavos in the pocket dimension. Lavos core is able to open time warps to different times, because it is connected to those eras through the wormhole. The aperture of the wormhole gives a distorted view of the time period being accessed. Lavos is also able to survey the entire timeline and would have knowledge of, for example, Guardian's fighting style. After Lavos dies, the pocket dimension no longer connects to space-time, but the past Lavos exists on a separate timeline.
Can't say I was fond of that explanation in the plot either. What was wrong just having the thing be normal and die? At the end, you can kill it in 4 eras. 12000, 600, and 1000 via the Black Dream, and 1999, via the bucket or Epoch. Since after the whole 12000 bit, he doesn't do a thing, so you can have it killed whenever without anything being messed up. Magus might still try to summon it, but he'd just fail, say WTF, and that's it. You could just pick an agreed time for canon purposes and be done with it.
I guess they didn't want the story explanation of saying "Yeah, he dies when he pops out in 1999, so Happy Ending! But for the rest of our hero's lives, Lavos is technically still sleeping in the earth. Spooooooky!" or something.
The Wolfman on
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
Okay, I thought the other possible timelines(With the exception of the Dino timeline) didn't exist before the FATE computer and Chronopolis was created.
The planet itself created the Dino timeline, which is why it sort of exist parrallel to the Chrono timeline.
And Chronopolis just went batshit nutso and created all the different timelines/dimensions due to every one of those moments being a critical point in time, just like Serge's death/living.
And at the end of Chrono Cross all of the alternate timelines collapsed leaving the "Bad" CT/Serge ending timeline with Chrono, Marle, and Lucca all dying at some point in time and Serge dying from the panther wound.
And Chronopolis coming from the actual Chrono Trigger timeline, with Chrono/Lucca/Marle leading all happy and fufilling lives and Gaurdia not destroyed and Lucca helping create Chronopolis.
Okay, I thought the other possible timelines(With the exception of the Dino timeline) didn't exist before the FATE computer and Chronopolis was created.
The planet itself created the Dino timeline, which is why it sort of exist parrallel to the Chrono timeline.
And Chronopolis just went batshit nutso and created all the different timelines/dimensions due to every one of those moments being a critical point in time, just like Serge's death/living.
And at the end of Chrono Cross all of the alternate timelines collapsed leaving the "Bad" CT/Serge ending timeline with Chrono, Marle, and Lucca all dying at some point in time and Serge dying from the panther wound.
And Chronopolis coming from the actual Chrono Trigger timeline, with Chrono/Lucca/Marle leading all happy and fufilling lives and Gaurdia not destroyed and Lucca helping create Chronopolis.
Funny that Crono and co.'s timeline actually leads to the building of Chronopolis, the Time Crash, and the formation of Terra Tower.
This is gonna spark some debate but I think that CC had way too many characters. When I play an RPG I like to watch the characters evolve and go through a myriad of emotions. With so many characters I think thats hampered.
Everyone thinks this. It's not really sparking any debate at all. However, the central characters have a lot of depth.
I also wish:
At the part where you had to choose whether to save kidd or not you didn't have to pick the asshole no decision to get Glenn as one of your characters.
This is gonna spark some debate but I think that CC had way too many characters. When I play an RPG I like to watch the characters evolve and go through a myriad of emotions. With so many characters I think thats hampered.
I always loved that there were so many characters.
I just like having lots of characters to choose from.
This is gonna spark some debate but I think that CC had way too many characters. When I play an RPG I like to watch the characters evolve and go through a myriad of emotions. With so many characters I think thats hampered.
I always loved that there were so many characters.
I just like having lots of characters to choose from.
This is gonna spark some debate but I think that CC had way too many characters. When I play an RPG I like to watch the characters evolve and go through a myriad of emotions. With so many characters I think thats hampered.
I always loved that there were so many characters.
I just like having lots of characters to choose from.
It can be good like when they had a lot to choose from in FF 6. Its been a while but I think the characters in CC was in like the mid to high 20s. I want to explore all the characters and their different emotional takes in situations, in fact I think that it adds to the replay value. But when you have do the same task like 10 or more times it gets rather daunting.
This is gonna spark some debate but I think that CC had way too many characters. When I play an RPG I like to watch the characters evolve and go through a myriad of emotions. With so many characters I think thats hampered.
I always loved that there were so many characters.
I just like having lots of characters to choose from.
It can be good like when they had a lot to choose from in FF 6. Its been a while but I think the characters in CC was in like the mid to high 20s. I want to explore all the characters and their different emotional takes in situations, in fact I think that it adds to the replay value. But when you have do the same task like 10 or more times it gets rather daunting.
And for Ayla, maybe you're forgetting, in the end of the game, she goes back to make kids with Kino? She didn't have to have a kid before she 'stepped out of the room' because she later 'came back to the room.'
You are invoking fate. Why isn't Lavos already defeated, then, if Crono's fated to defeat him? Why isn't Fiona's Forest already healed? What about the central theme of the game -- that those who unleash their will upon time can change history? What about the reiteration in Chrono Cross, that anyone who does such is a "Chrono Trigger", and has the power to change his or her future? The theme of the Chrono series is always free will. To say that Ayla "came back after the adventure" is bringing in predetermination and causal loops, which, aside from those four plot holes, are completely free from and not suggested by other events of time travel in the Chrono series.
As for the other thing, under your idea, the Last Village Janus would be diverted to become the adult Magus. Why, then, does Magus -- after this transpires -- remember a different version of what happened at the Ocean Palace? He never even visited the place in this new history he supposedly has. Chrono Cross also defeats this. Serge comes back from the dimensional battle with the Time Devourer and is able to briefly remember FATE and the Dragon Gods as he mutters to Leena. If he suddenly became the Serge born in the new, unified, kosher dimension, he'd have no memory of these things whatsoever.
Everyone's dead?
In Home World, because something about that dimension's existence causes Lavos to succeed in effecting the ruined future again. In Another World, the ghosts don't show up at all.
There's a lot of evidence that they're still alive after everything's said and done. Lucca's letter to Kid (post 1005 A.D. since Kid can't have an accent as a one-year old) speaks of her friends in the present, living text, and Guardia, though said by Radius to no longer be peaceful...still exists in name, obviously! Kato purposely didn't explain what happened so he could save the story, but I guess Square sort of fucked that over by not giving them Chrono Break. So he ditched to Monolith Soft, and now he's back, probably sitting in the corner praying for the chance for a new game while finishing whatever Mana crap they shovel him. Anyway, more of this at http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Fates_of_the_Chrono_Trigger_Team.html .
...At least, I think that's what this theory is referring to.
Yeah, you got it. I'm not sure who originated the duplicates idea. That's a plot hole.
So, for CT, time is linear. ...and then, several weeks from when she left 65 million BC, she comes back, has babies, and lives out her life.
The Gates are linear, yes, but Belthasar's Neo-Epoch in Chrono Cross, the Time Egg in Chrono Trigger, and even Lucca's trip to 990 A.D. prove that you can go where you want provided you have the means. The Gates are just mindful of "Time Error", our little name for the transcendental time axis which Gaspar's on.
Question. How the hell do you heal Fiona's forest? I can never get to that part. I just keep talking to her and she repeats the same damn line. Arg! its annoying.
This is gonna spark some debate but I think that CC had way too many characters. When I play an RPG I like to watch the characters evolve and go through a myriad of emotions. With so many characters I think thats hampered.
I always loved that there were so many characters.
I just like having lots of characters to choose from.
It can be good like when they had a lot to choose from in FF 6. Its been a while but I think the characters in CC was in like the mid to high 20s. I want to explore all the characters and their different emotional takes in situations, in fact I think that it adds to the replay value. But when you have do the same task like 10 or more times it gets rather daunting.
This is gonna spark some debate but I think that CC had way too many characters. When I play an RPG I like to watch the characters evolve and go through a myriad of emotions. With so many characters I think thats hampered.
I always loved that there were so many characters.
I just like having lots of characters to choose from.
It can be good like when they had a lot to choose from in FF 6. Its been a while but I think the characters in CC was in like the mid to high 20s. I want to explore all the characters and their different emotional takes in situations, in fact I think that it adds to the replay value. But when you have do the same task like 10 or more times it gets rather daunting.
Chrono Cross had 44 playable characters.
Boy does it ever. I've beaten the game with every single one too.
Yes, there IS a Pocket Dimension needed to explain Lavos, as his appearance in multiple timelines wouldn't occur otherwise. This is proven when you defeat the shell in one timeline in the future, and visit him in the past to have it be gone as well. In his pocket dimension, Lavos exhibits his own time stream. The events of Chrono Cross completely fuck this balance up, because in the game, Lavos is defeated and sent to the Darkness Beyond Time.
So let's just stick to Chrono Trigger mechanics, please.
From the Compendium:
This lastly brings us to the nature of Lavos's temporal powers and existence. Lavos seems to exert certain powers over time and space, able to create distortions and disruptions. Lavos created the anomalistic gates that neutralized the Gurus and Janus in the Lavos timeline, presumably caused the massive distortion at Magus's Lair, and also seems to perpetrate other effects consisting of a blue field around the being. Lavos's powers and other irregularities are adeptly explained by the Pocket Dimension theory, supplemented by Time Error. The theory appears here, taken from Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel.
Lavos displays some strange behavior. If the travelers defeat the shell and warp into the past, the shell is still defeated. A strange blue aura surrounds Lavos during the Ocean Palace disaster and the final battle. Lavos Core is able to open time warps to different eras. Lavos also appears to have knowledge of the future; during the final battle it emulate the fighting techniques of Guardian, which exists in 2300 AD. A possible explanation is that Lavos exists within a pocket dimension or "time bubble" which transcends time. When Lavos arrived on earth in 65 million BC, it created a pocket dimension separate from normal space time. A wormhole connects the pocket dimension to every time period. This pocket dimension would exhibit a flow of Time Error; Lavos could access any time period he wished from the wormhole, and would remain constant no matter which era his pocket dimension might be accessed from. Lavos' time axis would be perpendicular to the normal flow of time. Lavos ages within the pocket dimension at a normal rate, but it appears to be the same from any given time period. For example, if Lavos had existed within the pocket dimension for six million years, it would appear to be six million years old from every time period. Anything done to Lavos from one time period, such as defeating the core, would be visible from all other time periods as well. Therefore, if the shell is defeated, Lavos appears to have no shell from each time period.
Lavos is not actually physically present within the earth. The wormhole aperture is located at the earth's core, giving Lavos access to the planet's energy and lifeforms. During the Day of Lavos or the Ocean Palace disaster, the wormhole ascends to the surface, causing a dimensional disturbance. The wormhole offers an uninterrupted view of the pocket dimension, creating the illusion of Lavos' presence. If one approaches Lavos, and passes through the wormhole, the interior of the pocket dimension has appearance of the blue aura which surrounds Lavos. During the Ocean Palace Disaster, Queen Zeal, Magus and the others warp into the pocket dimension. During the final battle, Crono battles Lavos in the pocket dimension. Lavos core is able to open time warps to different times, because it is connected to those eras through the wormhole. The aperture of the wormhole gives a distorted view of the time period being accessed. Lavos is also able to survey the entire timeline and would have knowledge of, for example, Guardian's fighting style. After Lavos dies, the pocket dimension no longer connects to space-time, but the past Lavos exists on a separate timeline.
Pocket Dimension Negation and Gameplay Excuse
The framework could work if the rule of Pocket Dimensions granting Time Traveler's Immunity were negated. Lavos's destroying Zeal would still be preserved since he is defeated after the event, and he would not be guaranteed emergence in 1999 A.D. Nonetheless, this causes a number of problems. Firstly, it hampers the notion of Time Error, which is clearly demonstrated by the End of Time. Secondly, it is known that time traveling to the End of Time is a protected act, as Gaspar remains there even though canned by the Prophet in the Keystone Timelines. If one argues that Lavos simply didn't have a Pocket Dimension, the problem of his shell comes into play. Which leads us to the supposition that this paradox is simply a result of gameplay mechanics. The developers did not plan to force the player to defeat the shell twice, and Lavos's shell only utilizes one location within the game's data -- meaning regardless of where it is defeated, it will remain that way if accessed again. With this gameplay excuse, one can make a case for Lavos's not having a Pocket Dimension at the cost of the plot inconsistency of his shell. In any case, an attractive solution is impossible.
Chrono Compendium has a great deal of detailed analysis. Unfortunately, I truly believe they overcomplicate a great deal of things that simply came down to gameplay convenience, mechanics, and limitations of hardware. And a number of the theories are unneeded, even without considering any of those things as a factor.
It takes 3 1/2 playthroughs to get all 44, and I sure as hell did that. I loved having Harle.
2 and a half.
One-pick someone to go to the manor, save kid.
Two-pick someone else to go to the manor, do not save kid.
1/2-pick the third person, beat the game with Lynx/Harle.
Xenogears of Bore on
3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
0
NocrenLt Futz, Back in ActionNorth CarolinaRegistered Userregular
edited August 2007
I enjoyed CC and how they blended the multiple dimension aspects. Talking to certain characters with their dimensional copy in your party was always entertaining. It allowed for fact that Glenn could get both swords and that one bartender chick's ultimate attack was with her sister (even though her sister's dead in her home dimension).
Yes, there IS a Pocket Dimension needed to explain Lavos, as his appearance in multiple timelines wouldn't occur otherwise. This is proven when you defeat the shell in one timeline in the future, and visit him in the past to have it be gone as well. In his pocket dimension, Lavos exhibits his own time stream. The events of Chrono Cross completely fuck this balance up, because in the game, Lavos is defeated and sent to the Darkness Beyond Time.
So let's just stick to Chrono Trigger mechanics, please.
From the Compendium:
This lastly brings us to the nature of Lavos's temporal powers and existence. Lavos seems to exert certain powers over time and space, able to create distortions and disruptions. Lavos created the anomalistic gates that neutralized the Gurus and Janus in the Lavos timeline, presumably caused the massive distortion at Magus's Lair, and also seems to perpetrate other effects consisting of a blue field around the being. Lavos's powers and other irregularities are adeptly explained by the Pocket Dimension theory, supplemented by Time Error. The theory appears here, taken from Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel.
Lavos displays some strange behavior. If the travelers defeat the shell and warp into the past, the shell is still defeated. A strange blue aura surrounds Lavos during the Ocean Palace disaster and the final battle. Lavos Core is able to open time warps to different eras. Lavos also appears to have knowledge of the future; during the final battle it emulate the fighting techniques of Guardian, which exists in 2300 AD. A possible explanation is that Lavos exists within a pocket dimension or "time bubble" which transcends time. When Lavos arrived on earth in 65 million BC, it created a pocket dimension separate from normal space time. A wormhole connects the pocket dimension to every time period. This pocket dimension would exhibit a flow of Time Error; Lavos could access any time period he wished from the wormhole, and would remain constant no matter which era his pocket dimension might be accessed from. Lavos' time axis would be perpendicular to the normal flow of time. Lavos ages within the pocket dimension at a normal rate, but it appears to be the same from any given time period. For example, if Lavos had existed within the pocket dimension for six million years, it would appear to be six million years old from every time period. Anything done to Lavos from one time period, such as defeating the core, would be visible from all other time periods as well. Therefore, if the shell is defeated, Lavos appears to have no shell from each time period.
Lavos is not actually physically present within the earth. The wormhole aperture is located at the earth's core, giving Lavos access to the planet's energy and lifeforms. During the Day of Lavos or the Ocean Palace disaster, the wormhole ascends to the surface, causing a dimensional disturbance. The wormhole offers an uninterrupted view of the pocket dimension, creating the illusion of Lavos' presence. If one approaches Lavos, and passes through the wormhole, the interior of the pocket dimension has appearance of the blue aura which surrounds Lavos. During the Ocean Palace Disaster, Queen Zeal, Magus and the others warp into the pocket dimension. During the final battle, Crono battles Lavos in the pocket dimension. Lavos core is able to open time warps to different times, because it is connected to those eras through the wormhole. The aperture of the wormhole gives a distorted view of the time period being accessed. Lavos is also able to survey the entire timeline and would have knowledge of, for example, Guardian's fighting style. After Lavos dies, the pocket dimension no longer connects to space-time, but the past Lavos exists on a separate timeline.
Pocket Dimension Negation and Gameplay Excuse
The framework could work if the rule of Pocket Dimensions granting Time Traveler's Immunity were negated. Lavos's destroying Zeal would still be preserved since he is defeated after the event, and he would not be guaranteed emergence in 1999 A.D. Nonetheless, this causes a number of problems. Firstly, it hampers the notion of Time Error, which is clearly demonstrated by the End of Time. Secondly, it is known that time traveling to the End of Time is a protected act, as Gaspar remains there even though canned by the Prophet in the Keystone Timelines. If one argues that Lavos simply didn't have a Pocket Dimension, the problem of his shell comes into play. Which leads us to the supposition that this paradox is simply a result of gameplay mechanics. The developers did not plan to force the player to defeat the shell twice, and Lavos's shell only utilizes one location within the game's data -- meaning regardless of where it is defeated, it will remain that way if accessed again. With this gameplay excuse, one can make a case for Lavos's not having a Pocket Dimension at the cost of the plot inconsistency of his shell. In any case, an attractive solution is impossible.
Chrono Compendium has a great deal of detailed analysis. Unfortunately, I truly believe they overcomplicate a great deal of things that simply came down to gameplay convenience, mechanics, and limitations of hardware. And a number of the theories are unneeded, even without considering any of those things as a factor.
This is where we, and a number of others, disagree with you. Nearly everything on the Compendium makes sense to me, especially when playing both Chrono games over again.
Posts
That's part of why I haven't, actually. I don't particularly like what I've heard about what they've done with the Crono universe (especially regarding the original cast). I think I'll still give it a shot someday, as I would like to give it a shot, but I must admit I already have a bias against it.
Don't let other people scare you off. The only real problem with the game is the enormous cast. Aside from that, it still feels very much like a suitable successor to CT. And the original cast are really only in for a short cameo.
Plus, it's one of the last PSX RPGs that doesn't cost a goddamn fortune to find. Seriously, why the hell does FF7 go for $70+ on eBay? The game sold five million copies. It's not in any way rare.
I know that they don't figure in heavily to the storyline, but it's how they're featured that really annoys me.
And I don't see how it can feel like a proper successor to Chrono Trigger, which has one of the best balanced cast of characters out there, when it has such a gigantic roster.
That's why I said aside from that. Obviously the roster wasn't the only thing CT had going for it.
You haven't played the game, so I excuse you for not thinking other dimensionally. There is no proof either way to the fates of those three in the regular timeline of that game. We do know that Guardia fell and the Masamune was taken (from the CT port ending cinematics) and we know from Chrono Cross of an event that might have killed of one of them, but then we hear that she has been in contact with other people since then, so there you have it. I can only think of one conclusive "Yeah, this fucker from CT is dead moment" in CC.
Well, alright then. The way I had heard it it sounded like they were basically all just dead except for Magus, either through age other events, regardless of which of the timelines presented you're dealing with.
Warlock: Yeah, you did say aside from that. But I really feel like the cast and their stories was the defining element of Chrono Trigger. The sidequests at the end are my favorite part of the whole game. I just don't think a game really can have the same feel as Chrono Trigger did without a solid cast.
I always liked the aspect of being thrown into a strange land under strange circumstances and figuring out how to unfuck your situation as the defining element of Chrono Trigger/Cross. Maybe it was just me.
Chrono Cross is worth a playthrough, stat. Not only does it have a far, far, far, far, far more complex plot that actually makes a lot of the Theories at the Compendium completely credible, it's also a great game. Also, due to the fact that it's written by Masato Kato(who understands time-travelling and dimensional-travelling moreso than Yuji Horii ever could) it is a far more epic tale that has an absolute fuckton of content.
I'm beginning to kinda see how it works. But I also think that's it's still rather shitty, and with a few story tweaks, they could have avoided such a thing completely.
The perfect way to explain this is with Magus/Janus. In the original, Janus walked in on Lavos waking up and got sent to 600 AD. Being rightfully fucking pissed off about this, he used his powerful magic to gain more power in order to summon Lavos himself and get some payback. Until Crono comes along, fucks his plan up, and sends him back to 12000 BC. He tries again to kill Lavos, fails, and then joins our little party.
Now, new timeline. Instead of walking ino the event, he's now down on the surface with Melchior. The event happens as usual, but Janus is sent to 600 AD anyways. The earthbound elder actually witnesses this and says as much. Now Magus' backstory is totally changed. Little Janus isn't pissed off at Lavos and wants revenge. No, little Janus is wondering how in the holy hell he got shot into a forest surrounded by monsters and Ozzie. Well, what happens to our Magus in our party? Shouldn't he disappear, or change or something? Shouldn't time be completely changed, because it's unlikely that this new Janus would ever grow up to be Magus with the exact same agendas? Well, it doesn't, because I guess down the line, new Janus eventually gets turfed somewhere, and old Magus gets to keep existing.
Once that finally clicked, my respect for the story dropped a notch, because it's totally convoluted and stupid. They could have simply kept with the theme of the era, that history just couldn't be changed, and have Janus and the Guru's come in anyways after Lavos wipes out the party. Instead, they change it, and now you have to explain why old Magus gets to stay in your party despite his entire life history being changed.
...At least, I think that's what this theory is referring to. I mean, it's been proven in dialog countless times that when Crono, Marle, and Lucca go off wherever, they're gone and not being replaced by duplicates. Otherwise, the chancellor freaking out, or shit, the entire premise of the trial wouldn't happen.
Well, that fits with the time traveler's immunity bit, but that still doesn't explain the idea of a duplicate version of the traveler showing up to replace the one who left. In fact, what you just described is exactly the opposite- someone leaving to ensure that they are gone when they are supposed to be according to the timeline of the original traveler.
Of course, I'm very tired and hungry right now, and will not likely have my mental capacity back for at least an hour or two, so I may be mixing something up. Truth be told, at the moment I can't even remember what exactly does happen after freeing the guru off the top of my head right now (I'm sure it'll come back to me in a bit).
Just listen and be happy
After Lavos has landed in 65 million BC, destroying the Reptites, you cannot take a waygate or the Epoch back to before he landed. Only after. The waygates, the epoch, whatever mode of entry you use to enter a certain era, all move forward in time, in respect to some universal clock. This is why you cannot go back to change events, after you have already effected or witnessed them. So, for CT, time is linear.
Ayla does not need some magical duplicate to appear to hold together the time-line for Marle, her descendant, to be born. She left 65 million BC, she spent several... weeks, we'll say, off fighting in other time eras and defeating Lavos, and then, several weeks from when she left 65 million BC, she comes back, has babies, and lives out her life. You do not need a magical fucking duplicate doing stuff in 65 million BC for those weeks that she is absent.
If Lavos were defeated in all timelines, in all parallel timelines even, then the only timeline possible would be the Dragon's world, wherein Reptites were never driven extinct by his landing, and humanity was ruthlessly crushed. He was defeated in 1999 AD, when he surfaced to destroy the world, and spawn more Lavoids, erasing the timeline of 2300 AD in all likelihood. No pocket dimension explanation is needed.
Janus's motivation is the same, whether he was sucked out of the Last Village, or out of the Ocean Palace. Save his sister. Nothing has to change in the timeline for him. He still grew up, started the war, had his attempt to destroy Lavos interfered with by Crono and company, was sucked back, became the Prophet, joined the party, etc.
So let's just stick to Chrono Trigger mechanics, please.
From the Compendium:
This lastly brings us to the nature of Lavos's temporal powers and existence. Lavos seems to exert certain powers over time and space, able to create distortions and disruptions. Lavos created the anomalistic gates that neutralized the Gurus and Janus in the Lavos timeline, presumably caused the massive distortion at Magus's Lair, and also seems to perpetrate other effects consisting of a blue field around the being. Lavos's powers and other irregularities are adeptly explained by the Pocket Dimension theory, supplemented by Time Error. The theory appears here, taken from Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel.
Lavos displays some strange behavior. If the travelers defeat the shell and warp into the past, the shell is still defeated. A strange blue aura surrounds Lavos during the Ocean Palace disaster and the final battle. Lavos Core is able to open time warps to different eras. Lavos also appears to have knowledge of the future; during the final battle it emulate the fighting techniques of Guardian, which exists in 2300 AD. A possible explanation is that Lavos exists within a pocket dimension or "time bubble" which transcends time. When Lavos arrived on earth in 65 million BC, it created a pocket dimension separate from normal space time. A wormhole connects the pocket dimension to every time period. This pocket dimension would exhibit a flow of Time Error; Lavos could access any time period he wished from the wormhole, and would remain constant no matter which era his pocket dimension might be accessed from. Lavos' time axis would be perpendicular to the normal flow of time. Lavos ages within the pocket dimension at a normal rate, but it appears to be the same from any given time period. For example, if Lavos had existed within the pocket dimension for six million years, it would appear to be six million years old from every time period. Anything done to Lavos from one time period, such as defeating the core, would be visible from all other time periods as well. Therefore, if the shell is defeated, Lavos appears to have no shell from each time period.
Lavos is not actually physically present within the earth. The wormhole aperture is located at the earth's core, giving Lavos access to the planet's energy and lifeforms. During the Day of Lavos or the Ocean Palace disaster, the wormhole ascends to the surface, causing a dimensional disturbance. The wormhole offers an uninterrupted view of the pocket dimension, creating the illusion of Lavos' presence. If one approaches Lavos, and passes through the wormhole, the interior of the pocket dimension has appearance of the blue aura which surrounds Lavos. During the Ocean Palace Disaster, Queen Zeal, Magus and the others warp into the pocket dimension. During the final battle, Crono battles Lavos in the pocket dimension. Lavos core is able to open time warps to different times, because it is connected to those eras through the wormhole. The aperture of the wormhole gives a distorted view of the time period being accessed. Lavos is also able to survey the entire timeline and would have knowledge of, for example, Guardian's fighting style. After Lavos dies, the pocket dimension no longer connects to space-time, but the past Lavos exists on a separate timeline.
I guess they didn't want the story explanation of saying "Yeah, he dies when he pops out in 1999, so Happy Ending! But for the rest of our hero's lives, Lavos is technically still sleeping in the earth. Spooooooky!" or something.
The planet itself created the Dino timeline, which is why it sort of exist parrallel to the Chrono timeline.
And Chronopolis just went batshit nutso and created all the different timelines/dimensions due to every one of those moments being a critical point in time, just like Serge's death/living.
And at the end of Chrono Cross all of the alternate timelines collapsed leaving the "Bad" CT/Serge ending timeline with Chrono, Marle, and Lucca all dying at some point in time and Serge dying from the panther wound.
And Chronopolis coming from the actual Chrono Trigger timeline, with Chrono/Lucca/Marle leading all happy and fufilling lives and Gaurdia not destroyed and Lucca helping create Chronopolis.
I also wish:
I just like having lots of characters to choose from.
hi5 choice buddy.
It can be good like when they had a lot to choose from in FF 6. Its been a while but I think the characters in CC was in like the mid to high 20s. I want to explore all the characters and their different emotional takes in situations, in fact I think that it adds to the replay value. But when you have do the same task like 10 or more times it gets rather daunting.
I think you're looking too deep into this. :P
You are invoking fate. Why isn't Lavos already defeated, then, if Crono's fated to defeat him? Why isn't Fiona's Forest already healed? What about the central theme of the game -- that those who unleash their will upon time can change history? What about the reiteration in Chrono Cross, that anyone who does such is a "Chrono Trigger", and has the power to change his or her future? The theme of the Chrono series is always free will. To say that Ayla "came back after the adventure" is bringing in predetermination and causal loops, which, aside from those four plot holes, are completely free from and not suggested by other events of time travel in the Chrono series.
As for the other thing, under your idea, the Last Village Janus would be diverted to become the adult Magus. Why, then, does Magus -- after this transpires -- remember a different version of what happened at the Ocean Palace? He never even visited the place in this new history he supposedly has. Chrono Cross also defeats this. Serge comes back from the dimensional battle with the Time Devourer and is able to briefly remember FATE and the Dragon Gods as he mutters to Leena. If he suddenly became the Serge born in the new, unified, kosher dimension, he'd have no memory of these things whatsoever.
In Home World, because something about that dimension's existence causes Lavos to succeed in effecting the ruined future again. In Another World, the ghosts don't show up at all.
There's a lot of evidence that they're still alive after everything's said and done. Lucca's letter to Kid (post 1005 A.D. since Kid can't have an accent as a one-year old) speaks of her friends in the present, living text, and Guardia, though said by Radius to no longer be peaceful...still exists in name, obviously! Kato purposely didn't explain what happened so he could save the story, but I guess Square sort of fucked that over by not giving them Chrono Break. So he ditched to Monolith Soft, and now he's back, probably sitting in the corner praying for the chance for a new game while finishing whatever Mana crap they shovel him. Anyway, more of this at http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Fates_of_the_Chrono_Trigger_Team.html .
Yeah, you got it. I'm not sure who originated the duplicates idea. That's a plot hole.
The Gates are linear, yes, but Belthasar's Neo-Epoch in Chrono Cross, the Time Egg in Chrono Trigger, and even Lucca's trip to 990 A.D. prove that you can go where you want provided you have the means. The Gates are just mindful of "Time Error", our little name for the transcendental time axis which Gaspar's on.
A-u-t-o-matic!
Chrono Cross had 44 playable characters.
Boy does it ever. I've beaten the game with every single one too.
Pocket Dimension Negation and Gameplay Excuse
The framework could work if the rule of Pocket Dimensions granting Time Traveler's Immunity were negated. Lavos's destroying Zeal would still be preserved since he is defeated after the event, and he would not be guaranteed emergence in 1999 A.D. Nonetheless, this causes a number of problems. Firstly, it hampers the notion of Time Error, which is clearly demonstrated by the End of Time. Secondly, it is known that time traveling to the End of Time is a protected act, as Gaspar remains there even though canned by the Prophet in the Keystone Timelines. If one argues that Lavos simply didn't have a Pocket Dimension, the problem of his shell comes into play. Which leads us to the supposition that this paradox is simply a result of gameplay mechanics. The developers did not plan to force the player to defeat the shell twice, and Lavos's shell only utilizes one location within the game's data -- meaning regardless of where it is defeated, it will remain that way if accessed again. With this gameplay excuse, one can make a case for Lavos's not having a Pocket Dimension at the cost of the plot inconsistency of his shell. In any case, an attractive solution is impossible.
Chrono Compendium has a great deal of detailed analysis. Unfortunately, I truly believe they overcomplicate a great deal of things that simply came down to gameplay convenience, mechanics, and limitations of hardware. And a number of the theories are unneeded, even without considering any of those things as a factor.
2 and a half.
One-pick someone to go to the manor, save kid.
Two-pick someone else to go to the manor, do not save kid.
1/2-pick the third person, beat the game with Lynx/Harle.