I think it has been better than Defenders, honestly. Which isn't a knock against Defenders, I loved that series. It was just ended prematurely and got really really rushed.
I think you might not be liking Hawkeye as much as IIF or Defenders, Solar, is because your taste veers more towards the fantastical and incredible stories in comics. Which IIF and it's magical kung-fu tournaments and Defenders with it's...well, everything very much are. Whereas Hawkeye is the complete opposite and focuses on people living pretty down to earth mundane lives and the superhero action is very grounded and in the periphery.
I could be wrong! But from all our talks and shit that seems like a big reason of you not being as in love with it as many people are.
I don't mind Hawkeye's down-to-Earth nature at all, despite my traditional preference for more fantastical stories and superpowered heroes.
Books like Daredevil have always been really enjoyable to me, for example, even if I do like him the most as a magical ninja than a noir mask
I just don't think Hawkeye is particularly well written
it's not bad by any stretch, but it feels a little too cute at times, the bro joke was born on a state pension, the dialogue is fine but nothing to write home about...
I like that book but it could be anyone at all writing it and I wouldn't care one jot. Aja is the guy who is doing all the good work there. When he's not on the book it becomes a perfectly acceptable superhero comic that would probably get cancelled within a dozen issues.
I disagree, considering issues with art by people other than Aja have sold perfectly well.
Aja is a very important part of the book, but I feel you are underselling Fraction's work on the title quite a bit. Clint and Kate's voices are fantastic and if they didn't resonate with fans as much as they have the book wouldn't be nearly as large of a success.
I agree they work better together than they do apart, and the book wouldn't be as big of a hit without either of them. But I think saying without Aja Hawkeye is just "perfectly acceptable" and would probably be cancelled is kind of ridiculous. Especially since we have gotten awesome not-Aja issues already.
Clint and Kate's voice don't feel like anything special to me, he's just a regular go-lucky-guy who is also a superhero, she's a pretty cool teenager who is also a superhero
it's the pop art style that makes it all work. If it hadn't been for Aja being on the book from the start, then that fanbase would never have built up IMO.
I get that you like it loads but honestly I wouldn't call the book's writing anything special. Like I said, I think Fraction has done far better work.
Obviously it just comes down to taste, and I know you think the series is pretty good, I ain't trying to go NO YOU MUST LOVE IT.
I love the dialogue because it feels very naturalistic without dipping into the Bendis/Sorkin "Let's go to the thing. 'There's a thing?' 'You don't know about the thing?' 'I didn't know there was a thing!'" well. It feels almost underwritten, but in a good way. Clint doesn't speak in full grammatically correct sentences and frequently second guesses himself right after he says something. It rings really honest to me, and I know that was Fraction's intent.
Yeah the bro joke can be a little overused (I still enjoy it) and it can get a lil quippy but for the most part it feels like the best representation of "real" speech while still being entertaining.
+1
Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
I love books about superheroes not being superheroes
the best issues of the Avengers are when they go out to the movies or something
I just don't think that in this particular case, it's tremendously well written, though Blank is right it doesn't dip into that kind of Bendis/Sorkin dialogue
also I am sure that lots of people like the book who are not part of that whole tumblr group but I think the reason it is so widely regarded and has got nominated for Eisners and so on is because of how it has been picked up
I feel that Aja deserved that Eisner nomination, certainly, Fraction doesn't deserve the best writer nomination however.
If the Tumblr crowd mattered for Eisners or attention, then why hasn't Kieron Gillen gotten every nomination known to man for Journey into Mystery and Young Avengers?
From a craft standpoint, Hawkeye is absolutely amazing on all ends of the production. You can't pin this book's success on just one person. Yes, Aja is doing some amazing work, but Matt Hollingsworth's colors are taking it to an entirely new level. And Fraction IS doing the work of his career on this book. The writing is about far more than dialogue, though there's the right amount of witty, snappy, fun dialogue that feels very real and isn't very common in comics. Look at what Fraction doesn't write. Knowing when to shut the hell up and let your artists tell the story is a skill, and probably one of the hardest to master, and yet...that still doesn't mean writing isn't happening!
There is way more going on with Hawkeye as a book to put it all on Aja's shoulders, and I'm saying that as someone left absolutely speechless by the layouts and compositions in the book. But the thing is, the other artists that have been on the book have brought the same level of craft. And those issues HAVE been just as strong (ignoring whether one likes a certain style of art or not, of course), and Fraction as the link writing it all should be a clue to another reason for its success.
It's fine to not like the book or not completely understand why it's so well loved, but trying to say that it's one person pulling all the weight or that it's just Tumblr is kind of unnecessary deflection.
...and that was way longer and rantyer than I meant it to be.
I think that it's often easy to underestimate how much of an influence the writer is having on the comic because we only see the final product which is primarily defined by the visuals and a few lines of text. Fraction has written Hawkeye with a lot of intent and thought. His craft isn't just in the dialogue it's also the vibe of the book, the world building etc.
Sure Aja is doing an amazing job but I think Fraction is also helping to paint the mental image of what he wants from the book. I mean the villain that was introduced last issue for example. That is a super intriguing character. It's nt just the art that made him good it was te entire set up. And that's saying something because the art was captivating!
I will say, when I first read the Hawkeye TPB, I wasn't really blown away. It was certainly well-drawn, and the characters were really endearing, but some stuff fell flat. Like, the twist in The Tape felt kind of arbitrary and pointless. And the Tracksuit Mafia's willingness to go head-to-head with an Avenger, was a bit odd.
But, upon re-reading it, with no expectations, I liked it more. I think it was one of those things I'd have really loved, if I'd gone into it cold. But, I'd been seeing bits of it on Tumblr, etc. for so long that it couldn't help but lessen the impact.
Conversely, I went into the recent Gambit and Scarlet Spider series totally cold, and found them greatly enjoyable.
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Avengers #12 was a step back into the right direction, but Deodato's art is just blah, and it's frustrating because you can see over the photo references some nice page layouts and detail that would work if he could just refine his style back to his old ways. Clint looks like he was traced from some bodybuilding magazine and all the little Savage Land kids feel copy and pasted in some panels.
Spock is a very good teacher, though. Better than Peter. And I agree with him getting tired of the gods jibber jabber about life (it seems Hickman might be bringing back the Busiek subplot about Thor realizing he's going to outlive everyone on the team, which is a worthwhile plot to bring back compared to others).
And High Evolutionary, of course he would be interested in the kids.
So here's something interesting regarding recent developments in Avengers:
Okay, so they're in the Savage Land, and Garokk shows up just checking things out, right? So I went to Wikipedia to refresh myself on Garokk's deal, and I found this regarding his next to last most recent appearance:
When the Savage Land was destroyed by the alien Terminus, Terminus was defeated by the Avengers, his armor ruptured and Terminus himself left to die, but it turned out that this Terminus was just an impostor. Garokk found a suit of Terminus armor and under mental control (presumably by the real Terminus) entered it and started destroying the remainder of the Savage Land. The X-Men fought this "Terminus" and destroyed the armor to reveal Garokk. Garokk regained his free will and together with a machine made by the High Evolutionary, he restored the tropical environment to the Savage Land. This process infused Garokk's essence into the land, causing him to cease to exist as an individual entity.
The mention of Terminus reminded me "wasn't he mentioned in solicits recently?"... It turns out yes, he's showing up in the next issue.
AVENGERS #13
JONATHAN HICKMAN & NICK SPENCER (W) • MIKE DEODATO (A)
Cover by Lenil Yu
“EVOLUTIONARY LEAP”
• The High Evolutionary stakes his claim on the Children of the Sun.
• Hyperion learns the true cost of the decisions he’s made at the Origin Site in the Savage Land.
• The Return of techno-titan Terminus.
That Garokk/Terminus/High Evolutionary story happened in Uncanny X-Men Annual #12, by Chris Claremont and Art Adams. It was published in 1988... I think Hickman is referencing a thirty-four year old story here, and it's blowing my mind! I have no idea where he's going with it, but it's kind of amazing.
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and I say that as someone who's never cared about Hawkeye before
it's about as subtle as a house brick though the window
but I guess you might chalk that up to cultural differences
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Although I would have liked it of there'd been a bit more plot development in the last issue.
But I hate "bros." Wearing that tee would associate me as one to 99.99% of the world.
and thus it is, for once, cool to think a comic book is really good
and Aja definitely deserves the respect he has received because his work on it is great
but it's not as good as Immortal Iron Fist in terms of Fraction's writing, in fact it's not as good as his Defenders either
better than his Thor but then that's not difficult at all
I think you might not be liking Hawkeye as much as IIF or Defenders, Solar, is because your taste veers more towards the fantastical and incredible stories in comics. Which IIF and it's magical kung-fu tournaments and Defenders with it's...well, everything very much are. Whereas Hawkeye is the complete opposite and focuses on people living pretty down to earth mundane lives and the superhero action is very grounded and in the periphery.
I could be wrong! But from all our talks and shit that seems like a big reason of you not being as in love with it as many people are.
Books like Daredevil have always been really enjoyable to me, for example, even if I do like him the most as a magical ninja than a noir mask
I just don't think Hawkeye is particularly well written
it's not bad by any stretch, but it feels a little too cute at times, the bro joke was born on a state pension, the dialogue is fine but nothing to write home about...
I like that book but it could be anyone at all writing it and I wouldn't care one jot. Aja is the guy who is doing all the good work there. When he's not on the book it becomes a perfectly acceptable superhero comic that would probably get cancelled within a dozen issues.
Aja is a very important part of the book, but I feel you are underselling Fraction's work on the title quite a bit. Clint and Kate's voices are fantastic and if they didn't resonate with fans as much as they have the book wouldn't be nearly as large of a success.
I agree they work better together than they do apart, and the book wouldn't be as big of a hit without either of them. But I think saying without Aja Hawkeye is just "perfectly acceptable" and would probably be cancelled is kind of ridiculous. Especially since we have gotten awesome not-Aja issues already.
pretty good, maybe
Clint and Kate's voice don't feel like anything special to me, he's just a regular go-lucky-guy who is also a superhero, she's a pretty cool teenager who is also a superhero
it's the pop art style that makes it all work. If it hadn't been for Aja being on the book from the start, then that fanbase would never have built up IMO.
I get that you like it loads but honestly I wouldn't call the book's writing anything special. Like I said, I think Fraction has done far better work.
I love the dialogue because it feels very naturalistic without dipping into the Bendis/Sorkin "Let's go to the thing. 'There's a thing?' 'You don't know about the thing?' 'I didn't know there was a thing!'" well. It feels almost underwritten, but in a good way. Clint doesn't speak in full grammatically correct sentences and frequently second guesses himself right after he says something. It rings really honest to me, and I know that was Fraction's intent.
Yeah the bro joke can be a little overused (I still enjoy it) and it can get a lil quippy but for the most part it feels like the best representation of "real" speech while still being entertaining.
But I don't pay attention to Tumblr and I think the book is fantastic.
I like it because I like stories about superheroes when they're not being superheroes
the best issues of the Avengers are when they go out to the movies or something
I just don't think that in this particular case, it's tremendously well written, though Blank is right it doesn't dip into that kind of Bendis/Sorkin dialogue
also I am sure that lots of people like the book who are not part of that whole tumblr group but I think the reason it is so widely regarded and has got nominated for Eisners and so on is because of how it has been picked up
I feel that Aja deserved that Eisner nomination, certainly, Fraction doesn't deserve the best writer nomination however.
From a craft standpoint, Hawkeye is absolutely amazing on all ends of the production. You can't pin this book's success on just one person. Yes, Aja is doing some amazing work, but Matt Hollingsworth's colors are taking it to an entirely new level. And Fraction IS doing the work of his career on this book. The writing is about far more than dialogue, though there's the right amount of witty, snappy, fun dialogue that feels very real and isn't very common in comics. Look at what Fraction doesn't write. Knowing when to shut the hell up and let your artists tell the story is a skill, and probably one of the hardest to master, and yet...that still doesn't mean writing isn't happening!
There is way more going on with Hawkeye as a book to put it all on Aja's shoulders, and I'm saying that as someone left absolutely speechless by the layouts and compositions in the book. But the thing is, the other artists that have been on the book have brought the same level of craft. And those issues HAVE been just as strong (ignoring whether one likes a certain style of art or not, of course), and Fraction as the link writing it all should be a clue to another reason for its success.
It's fine to not like the book or not completely understand why it's so well loved, but trying to say that it's one person pulling all the weight or that it's just Tumblr is kind of unnecessary deflection.
...and that was way longer and rantyer than I meant it to be.
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Sure Aja is doing an amazing job but I think Fraction is also helping to paint the mental image of what he wants from the book. I mean the villain that was introduced last issue for example. That is a super intriguing character. It's nt just the art that made him good it was te entire set up. And that's saying something because the art was captivating!
Avengers #1-10 recap
writing off something naturalistic as not very well written is underselling like a motherfucker
But, upon re-reading it, with no expectations, I liked it more. I think it was one of those things I'd have really loved, if I'd gone into it cold. But, I'd been seeing bits of it on Tumblr, etc. for so long that it couldn't help but lessen the impact.
Conversely, I went into the recent Gambit and Scarlet Spider series totally cold, and found them greatly enjoyable.
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And High Evolutionary, of course he would be interested in the kids.
well
you know that annoys me
because I am allowed to have my own opinion
but if you are going to be like that about it sure whatever
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garokk
The mention of Terminus reminded me "wasn't he mentioned in solicits recently?"... It turns out yes, he's showing up in the next issue.
That Garokk/Terminus/High Evolutionary story happened in Uncanny X-Men Annual #12, by Chris Claremont and Art Adams. It was published in 1988... I think Hickman is referencing a thirty-four year old story here, and it's blowing my mind! I have no idea where he's going with it, but it's kind of amazing.
Goddamn this is one hell of a book.